http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/world/asia/18pakistan.html?pagewanted=all
court has given 3 weeks to the Govt to prove that he has got immunity .
what it says?
its too difficult to get one side or another for the courts also?
PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues
Decision on Davis delayed ....says what?
(132 posts)-
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 11:13 #
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toamin
memberBottom line, so far Foreign Office has not shared official position on the status of Raymond.
Probably they will provide a certificate which will get challenged on the basis of forgery.
If Raymond's fate is left to Pak Court System, then that alone is like big punishment for an american :)
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 11:21 # -
choraa naloo pind kahili
After catching up on the legal details of the case by watching expert opinions on shows of Dawn's Arshad and Mubashir Luqman's, I say Pakistan has a weak case. Here's a summary of possible arguments on both sides.
Pakistan +'s/US's -'s
-Firing on back of a person is no self defense
-Diplomats don't carry that kind of gear
-Discrepancy in status and affiliation with embassy/consulates
-Content of the camera film
-carrying multiple IDs
-Pak to press on second vehicle case to DavisPakistan's -'s
-Davis did not leave the scene on own, the traffic officer told him to do so (statement of people on the scene)
-Pak filed weak FIRs, did not press espionage charges, dafa 319 should have been filed
- Second vehicle incident would not be related since they were not involved at the incident
- Pak FO have discrepancies in their paper work on Davis
- Pak did not decline Davis's application even after raising queries from US which were not providedUS +'s
-Diplomatic passport alone is the best document to seek immunity per Vienna and Geneva conventions
- US had asked diplomatic visa for Davis, Pak FO rules do not allow diplomatic visas for certain cases, so the only tick US could check mark on the application was special staffPosted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 12:17 # -
shirazi
MemberSo now court is saying why don't you settle outside the court and come back in 3 weeks :)
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 12:23 # -
toamin
memberDiplomatic passport alone is the best document to seek immunity per Vienna and Geneva conventions.
I heard x-diplomats saying that dip passport alone does not mean any thing unless the host country registers the applicant as diplomat and provides ID/Certificate as token of recognition, in case of Devis that certificate does not exist, only thing that exists is an application from US.
Now if foreign office provides a document saying that yes this guy is registered with us as diplomat only then he can get away, but then there is suspicion that FO might forge documents, so this newly provided certificate can also get challenged.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 12:24 # -
GOOGLE
MemberGovt is trying to gain some time in order to convince the family of the victims Or to cool down public anger and after some time give immunity to Davis urf Daus.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 12:37 # -
In US mind Davis is always a diplomat, they filed his application for this status. Pakistan FO issued him a lower grade visa. In this case, Pakistan could have rejected the application and US could have withdrawn the application upon issuance of non-diplomat visa. But none did that. So both found a middle ground which is the grey area (to US he's a diplomat to Pakistan he's not, both countries have supporting evidence in own right). Pakistan should have not stamped a non-diplomatic visa on a diplomatic passport, they should have asked a private passport suitable for a contractor.
In this situation, the status part of case could be settled in a neutral country. If the neutral country court rules, he's a diplomat he would go free, if they rule he's no diplomat Pakistan can then proceed with criminal charges in own court.
Barrister Sibghatullah Qadri is quite certain that Vienna convention, they way it is interpreted by the countries, grants Davis immunity if the host country had accepted him on a diplomatic passport regardless of visa type or FO registration.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 12:43 # -
toamin
memberit is quite simple, basic question is that at the time of crime what was the status of the guy based on host country's record?
This basic question can only be answered by Pak Foreign Office, so far they have not said anything.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 12:52 # -
gv
Member@BO
please see
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/shah-mehmoods-press-conference-on-davis-issue#post-211643
and
http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=31535&Cat=2&dt=2/16/2011
Even if he is confirmed as a consular technical staff which is the US govts claim that does not give him blanket immunity for all crimes.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:02 # -
@Salam
Exactly, the host country cannot accept regular guys on diplomatic passport. I carry an official Pak passport (not diplomatic), nobody gives a danm what the visa type is. The kind of passport speaks volume. I don't even have visa sometimes, just a letter written by the host country's embassy telling the authorities to let me in, without even declaring what is my status or purpose of entry in the host country and it is sufficient to enter and receive protocol :). This is all based on passport and letter, no visa. I'm not a diplomat. I can betcha diplomat guys have lot more privileges. This does not mean I have immunity, I'm only making a point the kind of understanding host countries have on carrying a certain passport.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:05 # -
toamin
memberBO
Next time when you travel on Pakistani official passport, do ask the immigration if you have DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY or not, please don't confuse it with entry visa, Pak govt passport does not mean diplomatic immunity, you will get arrested if you do something 'naughty' ;)
Thanks-
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:17 # -
i totally agree with Google .
its just a time buying technique .
to get rid of the anger right now.
after 3 weeks nobody would ask about Davis.
some 300 issues were be hot at that time on media.Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:25 # -
I should claim diplomatic immunity on official passport which is only slightly better than private passport???????
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:31 # -
toamin
memberdiplomatic immunity is only for diplomats associated with embassy or consulate
some one traveling on govt passport does not enjoy ANY immunity
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:37 # -
shirazi
MemberIf victims are paid blood money and they agree to with draw case, would that settle the issue w/o invoking diplomatic immunity?
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:43 # -
toamin
memberThat means first court convicts Devis with murder and sends him to gallows, then he can negotiate with families for waver of gallows-
This whole process itself takes few YEARS
Zardari can also be used to forgive him, but even in that case court must CONCLUDE on a verdict first.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:44 # -
The passport says on he is "on diplomatic assignment".
Pakistan stamps visa on it.And he's not a diplomat? like I said چوراں نالوں پنڈ کاہلی
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:48 # -
toamin
memberYes, this visa does not mean that he enjoys 'blanket immunity', for immunity US has to register him & get immunity certificate from host country, apparently he does not have this certificate which means no immunity-
seems like you have been busy for past 3 weeks because all these points have been covered by Law Experts in media, try watching some old programs to see the tech details involved
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:52 # -
So now you are back to visa which you were earlier refuting by arguing his status with foreign office.
The only common document between the two countries is passport and visa. Doesn't matter what other documents either of the country maintain in local record. So passport and visa is what the either could legally argue on court.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:56 # -
toamin
membernot sure what you mean by 'back to visa', i said that host country has to recognize and provide certification and only then immunity is effective
type of visa or type of passport do not dictate immunity status-
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 13:58 # -
So that means there could be an ambassador in Pakistan who might not have diplomatic immunity because Pak FO has not provided a certification.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:00 # -
gv
Member@bo
please read the vienna convention link
even if he is a diplomat he does not have blanket immunity
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:01 # -
@gv
Not arguing blank, but there is some immunity for sure because of the type of passport he carries.
The convention even guarantees immunity to family members.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:03 # -
toamin
memberPrecisely, or for example Pakistani ambassador to Egypt has full immunity in Egypt but he may be traveling to France for any xyz reason, there in France he is not going to have IMMUNITY despite his official passport or official visa
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:03 # -
what?? That's obvious that an ambassador does not carry global immunity, only in host country.
If the host country has accepted the ambassador or diplomats, they are entitled to automatic immunity per convention. There is no requirement of carrying a certification from the host country.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:07 # -
toamin
memberمیری تو بس ہوگئی، کوئی اور ہی اس بھائی کو سمجھائے
مہربانی
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:10 # -
gv
Member@BO
Article 41 of the Vienna Convention for Consular Affairs
Personal inviolability of consular officers
1.Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, except in the case of a
grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:11 # -
no killer in any case has an immunity .
he is not in the position to even defend his self defense stance.Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:15 # -
@gv
Davis is not consular officer. He is a member of technical and admin staff. 41 is not applicable to him.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:16 # -
gv
Memberhe is a member of technical and admin staff at the Lahore consulate not the Islamabad embassy
41 is applicable to all consular staff i.e. non embassy staff.
also as salam points out the issuer of diplomatic status is the host country
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:20 # -
The convention defines very clearly the designations: 'head of mission', 'agent', 'member of mission', 'members of the staff of the mission', 'members of the diplomatic staff' and 'members of the administrative and technical staff'.
What page has definition of consular officer?
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:26 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
(1) The other day, in some talk show, I heard the fact that Pakistan has not (and I repeat: has not) "ratified" all clauses/parts of Vienna Convention
Pakistan has only ratified specific clauses starting from 25 or so, till 35.
The clauses which Pakistan has ratified as law of the land in constitution of Pakistan, they do not provide Mr. Raymond Davis or whoever that human being is, the "immunity" that is being talked about, everywhere.
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(2) No kind of "immunity" can absolve a human being of the "charge" of murder of another human being
Three "cold blooded" murders have been committed in Lahore, by human beings who belong to a foreign collective.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:29 # -
@hariskhan
really? good news, is it possible to accept few articles and not the while convention, but sounds a bit odd. I would think the signatories agree to all clauses.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:32 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@barackosama: Good point.
Even then, my 2nd point still stands. Treaties cannot over-shadow that fact.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:34 # -
gv
Member@bo
If you follow the link to the other thread I have posted the link to the official vienna declaration there are two separate docs one pertaining to embassy's and one one pertaining to consulates article 41 is only applicable to consular staff
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:34 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
"gv" has a valid point. I agree.
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@barackosama: Immunity does not apply to all members in the "same" way.
Does the Vienna Convention say, it does ?
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:36 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@barackosama: I am looking at Vienna Convention in [PDF] format at this location. I found it through my google search. I searched this PDF.
I cannot corroborate what you said in this post.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:45 # -
@hariskhan
Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961
Article 37 page 11-12
2.Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of or permanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29 to 35, except that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving State specified in paragraph 1 of article 31 shall not extend to acts performed outside the course of their duties. They shall also enjoy the privileges specified in article 36, paragraph 1, in respect of articles imported at the time of first installation.
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:46 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@barackosama: I searched the PDF for the words "Members of the administrative and technical staff". The search returned zero matches.
The PDF I'm looking at is of the Vienna Convention as it was put forward in 1969. Article 37 is on page 14. The following is what I see for Article 37 in that PDF;
Article 37
Revocation or modification of obligations or rights of third States
1. When an obligation has arisen for a third State in conformity with article 35, the obligation may be revoked or modified only with the consent of the parties to the treaty and of the third State, unless it is established that they had otherwise agreed.
2. When a right has arisen for a third State in conformity with article 36, the right may not be revoked or modified by the parties if it is established that the right was intended not to be revocable or subject to modification without the consent of the third State.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:50 # -
@hariskhan
I dunno about 1969. The ones applicable are 1961 and 1963. There are a quite few Vienna conventions, you need to check diplomatic one (e.g. Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961).
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:52 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Which Vienna Convention is it that Pakistan signed on ?
The one from 1961 ? The one from 1963 ? The one from 1969 ? or some other ?
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:53 # -
kulla
Membergovt is only buying time to cool down public sentiment. Will forge docs or try to convince the family of the victims to accept blood money.
PPP and PMLN are the two most begherat parties. They have in the past and will at anytime sell pakistan.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:55 # -
Pakistan did sign it on 29 Mar 1962.
Here's a list of signatories.
http://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=III-3&chapter=3&lang=en
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:56 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Hasn't the Vienna Convention been "modified" since then ?
So which one is it that applies ?
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:57 # -
1961 and 1963 is what I hear and some things from Geneva convention may apply too.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 14:59 # -
Davis case.
its what the revolution we were waiting for?Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 15:00 # -
Bottom line is in the court the whole game will be played around articles 37 (grants immunity) and 41 (makes exception to immunity) which appear contradictory.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 15:02 # -
toamin
memberGame will start only if and when Foreign Office provides a certificate, without Pak Govt Certificate Devis will be tried like a common man-
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 15:16 # -
gv
Member@BO
They are not contradictory
there are two separate docs dont you get it..
one is for diplomatic relations which applies to embassies (i.e. in capitals only)
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdfthe other is for consular staff
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 15:35 # -
However, whoever signs such a certificate would be the mouse belling the cat (would doomed their career). It is obvious that bureaucracy of the FO can't do it so must be done at the highest level. Qureshi is out, whoever the hell is in command would say they weren't around when the visa was issued. That means FO's house is not in order after Qureshi and thus Pakistan screws up the case. That's kahili of pind. Hussain Haqqani (discussed on one show or news I think) had issued a statement that he is a diplomat. So removing Qureshi has done great loss. Now Gilani could take the Ministry of FO under him and grant immunity.
Posted 1 year ago on 17 Feb 2011 15:40 #
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