Dictatorship and TIME ? « PKPolitics Discuss

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Dictatorship and TIME ?

(27 posts)

shimatoree
Member

Is Dictatorship really as bad as Zaradri and Nawaz Shareef say it is ?
If we look at the source- then what they say is suspect.
Was Hazrat Umar a dictator ? Many say that he was.
Pakistan does not have the luxury to go through an evolutionary process for 200 years. I doubt if it has 10 years to survive as a state.
That brings forth the factor of TIME.
How much Time we need.
How much Time before those that have damaged and destroyed this country are brought to account.
And what effect all of this will have on the behaviour of the masses.

When you consider the factor of TIME- Dictatorship appears the only option.

To those that are champions of democracy who say that the worst democracy is better than the best dictatorship- I would say we have NOT had a good dictator. We have only had corrupt politicians and corrupt dictators to compare as though we only have choices between Zardari and Nawaz Shareef on one hand and Musharraf on the other.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 1:16 #
Shock
Members

First of all corrupt politicians are all around the world, but the difference is that they are held accountable. Corruption has nothing to do with democracy, which is by far the best system. Frankly, no system of governance can work in Pakistan.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 1:37 #
shafiq12
member

Prophet Muhammad predicted the coming of the "dictators" and bad leaders

There are many signs and events that were prophesied to take place before the Hour. The following is one of them:
===================================================
Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, "When honesty is lost, then wait for the Hour." It was asked, "How will honesty be lost, O Allah's Apostle?" He said, "When authority is given to those who do not deserve it, then wait for the Hour." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, To make the Heart Tender (Ar-Riqaq), volume 8, Book 76, Number 503)"

==================================

It is important to know that the words "dictator", "dictatorship" and "military coup" are modern words that just recently in our days came to existence. Most of the world's underdeveloped countries are ruled by dictators today, and most of these dictators are supported by the bad governments of the West who call themselves "True Democratic Governments".

Take for instance Saddam Hussein of Iraq: The United States and Europe supported him heavily during the Iran-Iraq and he was their best friend, despite the fact that he gassed his people with chemical weapons, because Iran at that time was the West's worst enemy, and it used to consider the US and the West "Great Satan". Today, Saddam Hussein all of the sudden is the West's worst enemy.

These dictatorships and the hypocritical democratic western governments are all bad and evil authorities. They seem to perfectly fit Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) description - "When authority is given to those who do not deserve it, then wait for the Hour" as shown above.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 6:35 #
kash01
Member

Pakistan need strong institutions like a strong parliament,a free media ,an independent judiciary and a robust economy and not dictators.Dictators always leave a greater mess behind as we have learnt from our history.Moreover the people of Pakistan are peaceful and democratic minded and they wont tolerate dictatorship in whatever form.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 6:39 #
junaid
Member

@shimatoree
Was Hazrat Umar a dictator ? Many say that he was.

kahen tum shea tau nahi ho?

prophet Mohammad pbum said agar mere baad koi nabi hota tau wo Umar RZ hotay.

so please mind your language.

P.S Moderator kindly delete his above blasphemous blame.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 9:06 #
haider3
member

Please to leave shimatoree alone, junaid sahib. He has not blasphemed against anyone, be sure. If you knew him better, you wouldn't be making such statements. And his point is wholly a valid one. A good dictarorship is better than a rotten democracy. Only he would have had the courage to say it so openly. Please, and he's no Shia either, if that is so important. Just a bit of a visionary.

Now to address the thread topic: If we get a dictator who gets the country up and running before that ten-year deadline you give us, shimatoree, then it's a resounding yes to your benevolent dictatorship. Certainly. We're way past these discussions on which system would suit us best. Now it's simply a question of survival for Pakistan. But I wish you would extend that deadline. However, Allah knows best. He'll give us that helping hand we so sorely stand in need of.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 10:38 #
shimatoree
Member

Junaid Sahib:

Just for your info -No I am not Shia -

Hazrat Umar as far as I am concerned was a most exceptional human being.

In my study of of leaders of the world- Hazrat Umar was the only one who compressed TIME- he achieved more in 10 years what takes Empires 200 years to achieve.

On the other hand your attempt at labeling this thread BLASPHEMOUS can best be described as sad.
My advice to you would be READ, and READ more about the topic-please and the topic is

Is Dictatorship-( honest ) better in getting things done when TIME is an issue ?

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 13:28 #
gv
Member

@shimatoree

The problem with dictatorships is that the role tends to attract megalomaniacs who end up building personality cults and doing more harm than good in the long run.

You (the people) become depdendent on the goodwill/foresight of the dictator to achieve any long term good for the country.

Aside from Franco I can't think of any absolute dictator in the past 100 years who actually left the country in a better state than he found it and also handed power back to the public

Lee Kuan Yew while achieving remarkable progress in a very short period of time still has extraordinary control over state matters via his family.

It would only work for pakistan if you had a true visonary in place who would focus on building state institutions and government proces so the state is not reliant on a single personality to function effectively.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 14:00 #
ajhons
Member

shimatoree sir

I think Hazarat Omer was not a dictator but the man of principls with utmost comitment towards Allah and Rasool(SW)teaching.
You can say when it comes to implement Allah and Rasool(SW)orders he was a dictator.But when HE was to decide something he always seeks advice from other companions and there are time when he accepted Hazart Ali's advice over his own.

Do correct me if Im wronge.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 14:09 #
ajhons
Member

A lot of people still are of the view the Mushraf's initial three years were good.It means they second the idea of Dictatorship.
And honest dictator is far more better the democrats we have right now in parliment

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 14:12 #
shimatoree
Member

ajhons-

Please READ carefully .
I said-

quote " some say that he was a dictator "

Who are these " some" Well, a lot of Western Scholars, some Islamic Scholars and Gandhi himself praised him while calling him a benevolent dictator.

Do I agree with them ?

No. But I do support Hazrat Umar style of rule to the fullest.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 17:10 #
toamin
member

well stimulating a discussion is fine but provoking others is not fine, word dictator holds negative connotation and attributing it to a rightly guided Caliph is not fair

was Hazrat Umar RA ruling based upon his whims/desires or he was ruling based on Qur'an/Sunnah? that is point that should be discussed

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 17:30 #
shimatoree
Member

Salam-

You can start a thread about that if you would like.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 17:35 #
haider3
member

Salam Sahib, Shouldn't we simply concede that perhaps shimatoree's sentence there was a bit clumsily turned and leave it that. Elsewhere he has told us repeatedly in what high regard he holds Hazrat Umar.

Everyone here knows what the Propher (PBUH) said about our Second Caliph and also how his extraordinary Caliphate, wholly based on the Qur'an and Sunnah, took Muslims to the height of their powers in the shortest span of time possible.

But, of course, if you wish to start a thread of your own, we'll all come and comment on that one, too.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 18:47 #
dildar
Member

Shimatoree

Is Dictatorship really as bad as Zaradri and Nawaz Shareef say it is ?
If we look at the source- then what they say is suspect.
Was Hazrat Umar a dictator ? Many say that he was.

It was not the dictatorship but the personality of Hazrat Umer that made him ‘Hazrat Umer’. Remember, we had only one Hazrat Umer and thousands of ‘MUSHARRAFs’.

Indeed Hazrat Umar was an extraordinary leader. His wisdom and strong personality lead him to do innovative decisions like refusing to pay Zakat to non-Muslims or abolishing punishment for stealing in the year of famine.

Do you think this is possible now?

I believe, NO!

We have such a rigid mulla-mentality narrow minded people that they would never ever accept a person like Hazrat Umar. He would be declared ‘kafir’/’murtad’ right away. Just look at your post, people see ‘dictator’ and Umar, not reading enough, not thinking a bit and jumped over the conclusion that you are blaspheming Hazrat Umar.

Let’s assume for a sec that we are fortunate enough to find one like Hazrat Umar, then what, how would we be ‘electing’ him or he’ll be coming with a coup….?

Then what will happen next, there will be another dictator with another coup and bloodshed……

So many questions????

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 18:53 #
shimatoree
Member

Dildar-

Thank you.

I am in full agreement with you about the " SHOOT FROM THE HIP " methods of the SELF PROCLAIMED PROTECTORS of Islam. They assert-( and I mean ASSERT)- that they not only have a monopoly on the interpretation of Islam but on thought and wisdom.

Any system or any group of people who by design DISENFRACHIZE one half of the population(Women) and make THIS as the center piece of their doctrine are wrong.

Writing on the threads here has been an eye opener for me.
Though I have " MET" very many thoughtful people- I have also come in contact with many who have pre-concieved notions-( False) and have great difficulty in dealing with an intellectual and critical analysis of the subjects under discussion.

AS to our future, I am very passimistic. And the basis of my pessimism is the deception and lies that are routine in life today in Pakistan in perticular and in the Muslim world in generel.

The obssesion with the physiology of the female as the determining and driving factor of ethics and morality of the society is a cancer that will not allow healthy trends to develope.

You are correct that if Hazrat Umara came today- they will kill him much sooner than they did before when he got 10 years to live and benefit mankind.

Thanks again.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 19:19 #
SYED AMMAR BUKHARI
Member

Democracy is not constitution. It is a SOCIAL CONTRACT which demands new coding of corporate culture in our British Colonial System, in consonance with the ideology, religion, resources, opportunities and the manners in which sovereign power is distributed. Leaders provide a beacon for the right path to the nation and rulers keep the nation aligned toward the Path provided by the leader. Leader never Rules and Ruler can not lead the nation. Only a DICTATOTOR is self proclaimed leader and ruler.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 5:42 #
haider3
member

Having thought it over, I have a question for you, shimatoree, in fact two.

One: After that ten year period you grant Pakistan as a future under the present circumstances, what end have you in sight for this poor country? Do we go up in smoke, get taken over by India or some other country, become the latest directly governed colony of the US or what? There as still a hundred and seventy-eighty million lives to be considered.

Two: Your dictator theory, which I do not oppose, if it turned out be for the good of the country, presupposes some likely candidate. Have you got one such in mind? If so, please to let us know as well, so we, too, can get used to the idea and see where each of us stands in regard to the person so designated.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 6:31 #
shimatoree
Member

Mirza Sahib

Question one- I gave a ten year period based on what is happening to day if it continues and what is that-

India cutting the water off
War in Afghanistan goes on.
Drone strikes go on
Zardari or Nawaz Shareef or Molana Diesle continue to rule
Debt crisis goes un abated
The problem of credibility due to Fake degrees
The Judiciary instead of making the tough decisions based on justice- also continues to " support the system "

The old saying is

if you do not change the methods- the results will not change.

Question 2-

Is there someone NOW who might fit the bill of a real Leader concerned with the betterment of the nation ?
Sorry but I do not see.
Perhaps I am blind But I do know this-

Someone might decide to become IMMORTAL.

If Zardari after the death of BB had considered about becoming immortal- in the eyes of Pakistanis

he would have put the right people in key positions
He would have told the Americans to STOP the drone attacks and would have asked them to plan to leave Afghanistan
He would have restored the judiciary at once
And he would have FIXED the Profiteers of Wheat and Sugar etc etc

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 12:50 #
haider3
member

Excellent answers, no hedging, thank you shimatoree. Prayer is all that remains.

Let me add that you bring a metaphysical dimension to the Forum's discussions which had been missing so far. I, for one, find it extremely beneficial for us all.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 15:02 #
shimatoree
Member

Mirza Sahib-

I have often wondered
why people choose bad over good.

That brings forth the question-

Freedom which much talked about-esp: in the Westernized Chattering groups is an interesting thing-

Freedom gives you the opportunity to be moral, humane and considerate.
Freedom also gives you the option to be a thief, a liar and corrupt person.

Why do most make the wrong choice ?

Is it because they are profit oriented or is it because they see everyone around them being evil.

That question is a profound one since for the last 62 years we have had people in power who had the option to do real good but did not.

Take the example of BB in 1989.
She had the entire country in the palm of her hand.
Why did she not rise to the occasion ?
In 1997 Nawaz Shareef had 2/3rd majority.
He could have done anything and everything- as yet he did not.

WHY ?

The answer might be the solution !

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 23:51 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Before discussing this topic, we need to decide on our standard. Unless we have a standard, we can't differentiate between right and wrong, good or bad.

So, I ask everyone;

(1) what are the standards to which you subscribe to ?
(2) Do you adhere to those standards yourself ?
(3) Do you adhere to any code of conduct yourself ?
(4) Do you practice those standards yourself ?
(5) What standards of justice do you subscribe to ?

I subscribe to standards set by Islam. I'm trying to learn as much of Islam as I can. I am trying to practice it as much as I can.

When we have some sort of standards, then we can put this topic in perspective.

Otherwise, if we don't subscribe to any standards, any code of conduct, then we can go on talking on this or any other topic for 10,000 years (or even more) and we'll get no where.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 0:14 #
haider3
member

Let me think this over carefully. Shall be back with whatever answers my head throws up in a while.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 11:33 #
toamin
member

hmm.. interesting questions, why BB when had full chance couldn't do much or same with NS.. I would say that they get the chair in state of great 'insecurity', they get busy appointing 'loyal' people to get grip on affairs, also top priority for them becomes how to protect themselves and their interests, during course of their rule repeated controversies rise just like we see today with zardari busy with one crises after another and ends up solving crises with 2 new crises.. actually they start to look for 'international support' and that is where they get deceived... hehehehe

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 11:50 #
haider3
member

So, I'm back too. Salam Sahib ahs already answered the question of why people in power continuously make wrong choices. Nothing need be added there.

I wanted to say something about the concept of freedom and goodness. Freedom, I have always felt, is one of the most abused words in the language. People in absolute chains of materialism keep mouthing this word when all they mean is licence. Real freedom lies in one and only one thing: spiritual discipline, i.e. coming closer to one's Maker. As HK says above: subscribing to the right standards.

And what should these standards be? One word: Goodness. Or as you describe it yourself, shimatoree: moral, humane, considerate. That is what is lacking in us all: spiritual training. We have all jumped off the benches of our universities of materialism. We have never received an instant even of spiritual training. And this includes Muslims. They discuss everything under the sun. Its all religious politics. Never do they talk about goodness (naiki). So we get the leaders we deserve. Like the people they govern, they know neither freedom nor goodness, in a word wisdom. And this applies as much to the west as to us.

They behaved the way they did, BB and NS and now Zardari, because they were never taught any better. That honest man, shimatoree, you remember? Get your lantern out and go a-seeking.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 13:29 #
semirza
Moderator

That honest man was Shaheed liaqat Ali Khan, A Nawab who gave up all his wealth for the sake of Pakistan.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 14:07 #
haider3
member

semirza sahib, Like you, we love and respect Shaheed Liaquat Ali Khan to this day and weep over his having been taken away from us in such an untimely fashion.

There, shimatoree, one of those rare honest men we've been looking for for so long. May yet another one appear in Pakistan before too long.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 14:36 #