Disconnect b/w the Individual & State

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Disconnect b/w the Individual & State

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kq
Member

I have noticed that there exists a gap, a gulf in the expectations an individual has from a State, and how he expects the state to fulfill them. This disconnect fuels discontent and makes the state's job of keeping its citizens satisfied difficult and nearly impossible. This is true for our society and elsewhere to.

An example is,
Rapid population growth in our country. The individual feels it is his right to have as many children as he wants. It is common to see 4 or more children in a family, especially in the rural areas, and to some extent in the urban areas. The individual has as many children as he likes and then expects the State to provide employment & other facilities to them.
The State has a hard time making future growth plans as it does not have an accurate idea for how much citizens to plan for. It must work with various growth scenarios at best, which may turn out to be right or wrong. The loss of control over population growth hampers it ability to effectively plan & provide. Also, it may be the case that population growth exceeds the state's abilities and resources. It is not possible for it to make sure everyone is employed & other amenities are provided.

Other examples include providing security to its citizens, optimum number of educated professionals in a field, and import export trade issues.

How can we reduce the divide b/w the citizen & state. Should the citizen himself be proactive and take some responsibility, or should the state become more authoritarian in its policies. One thing is certain, the citizen cannot keep on acting like the state has a magic wand to fulfill all his wishes. Any ideas.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 10:05 #
toamin
member

The assessment on population is flawed, when I travel from Islamabad to Lahore or from Islamabad to Peshawar I see vast peaces of land laying vacant or with very less population.

Cities are congested due to non-existent governance.

Population thing is like 5 people living in a small tent on a 5 acre land and a person coming in the tent telling them that you are over populated on the LAND and should reduce people.

lolz...

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 10:08 #
kq
Member

jjkhan,

your assessment of population and its impact is flawed and childish. you make it seem like it is a housing problem. Even if it is a housing problem, why wouldnt the people from congested cities move to vast pieces of vacant land. Bcoz they won't have jobs and other facilities there.

Have you ever wondered why Balochistan is the largest land province but the smallest population province. Bcoz there are very few basic resources there e.g water, the Baloch have migrated to Punjab and Sindh in large numbers in search of more hospitable land, over the centuries.

But just by focusing on population you miss what the post is about. I would have appreciated if you addressed the theme of the topic in addition to the detail.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 10:21 #
toamin
member

kq,

I saw big houses on these vast lands in Punjab. They are living a very simple life. No electricity or gas there. Simple farmers who grow for themselves and keep for themselves. They need many children to keep enough man power to cultivate these lands.

There is no population problem in Pakistan, this problem is actually in europe.

In Pakistan you may choose some other example to explain your concept which needs discussion.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 10:25 #
semirza
Moderator

Not all but much should be shouldered by the rural polulation that migrates towards Urban neighbourhoods/cities for better means of income as they find tillable land almost impossible to cultivate because of exceedingly high prices of seed, fertilizers and related chemicals. This is compounded by power and diesel shortages/price hikes.

They endup as squatters living without potable water or electricity. This adds up into more shanty towns with an added burden of providing them with water, power and other basics for the government while on the other hand those who are able to (farmers of middle class and above) afford cultivation face labor shortages during harvest times.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 10:52 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@kq: Unfortunately, this shows how little grasp you have of reality.

If I was the King of the country, that you are talking about, if you were its PM or its Governor, I would have fired you instantly! on making this statement, for many damn! good reasons. It shows your lack of knowledge, it shows lack of resolve on your part, which .. needless to say .. leaves me speechless.

For one, the state collects Rs. 2.6 trillion of taxes, NO one knows where it is spent. There is ZERO transparency. I believe, most of this money goes to pockets of the 'already too rich' people. It is never! spent on the people of this nation.

US collects $2.x trillion taxes. US spends that money in US. Pakistani leaders will spend the tax money on Pakistan. US has larger population than Pakistan.

Secondly, only the people being taxed are those doing desk jobs or the people who are poor. The rich are enjoying the luxury of tax evasion.

Thirdly, the system of Zakaat is not implemented within Pakistan. Zakaat system alone will eradicate 'poverty' as we know it. It will also provide state with piles! of money

Fourth, there is ample land, money, natural resources available. The problem is its management. Our state managers have failed miserably!! in the last 60+ years

Fifth, Govt. of Pakistan can stop people in villages from migrating to cities by providing them employment oppertunities IN! their villages. Its being done in US. Why can't it be done in Pakistan ?

Sixth, Muslim nations, countries towards our west and north are rich! in oil and gas. They can provide us a lot of that at cheap rates. Even Iran has offered us cheap oil. Bilateral trade is screaming! for our attention

Seventh, Who hasn't made any dams in Pakistan for 1+ decade ? I just told of one embarassing scam in govt. at;

a) Discuss Article: Bureaucracy stalls $800m hydel project

b) What is the progress on Kalabash dam ? Its feasibility was made 2+ decades ago. Kalabash dam will make electricity so damned cheap in Pakistan, you will go nuts because of all the prosperity

a) opening new business will become cheap
b) hundreds of thousands of more job oppertunities
c) cost of production of ALL products made in Pakistan would drastically fall
d) good and services made within Pakistan will become attractive for export
e) it will give oppertunity for brand names to get established in Pakistan, who's good/services can be exported
f) etc etc

Eighth, Pakistan was ready to give 700,000 acres of fertile land to Saudi Arabia, why doesn't Govt. of Pakistan give that land to people of Pakistan ?

I can give you hundreds of thousands of examples on what can be done, but isn't being done.

We have 180! million people in Pakistan. Most of them are not getting basic necessities. That means, most of them are not in shape to pay taxes. You have 8% tax ratio in Pakistan.

What does that mean ?

People of Pakistan do NOT trust people running state institutions. Why would they pay taxes ?

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 11:22 #
kq
Member

hariskhan,

what statement.

You know what your problem is, you never offer anything constructive, never even address the reasoning. You see the world as black and white, and can't make a rational argument. You're always condemning someone.
I would prefer it that you would avoid addressing my posts. Its no fun talking to a rude, immature person. Troll on your America bashing threads, which satisfy your pathetic inferior ego.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 11:37 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@kq: You are welcome to your opinion. I just mentioned 7 points. ALL you can see is what I said about you. Who has narrow thinking ?

Think of my words as 'constructive criticism'.

P.S. It was US who defeated Muslim UMMAH, a super power of its time, after which US disintegrated our land into nation states in 1924. Do you think I'm talking hate-mongering or an established, hard fact ?

My posts related to what Americans are doing are to present hard facts. They show the reality on the ground. They are for education. They are related to Muslims. Ego satisfaction gives me nothing.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 11:38 #
toamin
member

Haris Khan

Your points are good and right on the subject.

@kq

No need to be harsh on another member.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 11:40 #
kq
Member

hariskhan,

again what statment.

Your points are about shortcomings of the government. Do your points address the relationship b/w state and individual, no.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 11:42 #
toamin
member

Governance is the relationship between rulers and individuals.

So points related with governance are addressing the relationship of subject.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 11:48 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@kq: Have you seen that video on youtube which depicts there is enough land in the entire world, for far more population growth ?

It says, if 1/4 of an acre is handed over to every individual living in the world today, everyone can be housed in Australia alone! and still! more than 1 province of land in Australia will be left uninhabited.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 11:51 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@kq: You pointed out;

1) Rapid growth

What has govt. done to date to control rapid growth ? What does Govt. of Pakistan have to show off for their efforts ?

2) Govt. planning

When has the govt. in the entire history of Pakistan, EVER done any planning for welfare of people of Pakistan ?

My statements above directly relate to the points you raised.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 11:59 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@kq: If people see the govt. doing something for them, why would they go against such a government, why would they ever have any reason to struggle against such a government ?

People accept mistakes, they are ready to accept failures. It is part of life. There would be complete calm in the society, if govt. was doing something for the people.

The primary function of a government is ?

1) to set direction for its people to move in

this gives purpose to people's lives, a sense of being some use. Achievements become confidence for people.

2) To establish rule of LAW

3) To ensure! provision and easy access of basic necessities of life

4) To provide standardized education system to its people

5) To collect Zakaat, taxes from its populace

6) To spend the Zakaat, tax money ON! the people!

Where do you see these things happening ?

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 12:05 #
toamin
member

Haris

Please also share that video so that people under false impression of over population can learn.

Thx

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 12:07 #
javedsheikh
Members

@ My dear kq,
It is really a though provoking article, you posted.
Pakistan has been suffering from a severe deficit of Economic Growth due to lack of Population Planning.
The West Pakistan had a population of 35 millions in 1947 what is touching the figure of 180 millions, that is almost 6 times within 62 years.
(American Population in 1947 was 150 millions and it only doubled during the same time frame what is 290 millions now.)
The ratio of economic growth could not be proportioned to the rate of Population growth, due to climatic, geological, political, moral and logistic restrictions.

Unfortunately, Pakistan could not be turned into an attractive and promising region for industrial investment due to a constant political turmoil.
A discouraged nation becomes lethargic and lacks initiative.

Always expecting for State interference and Government action, is a communistic trend.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 12:34 #
toamin
member

Lack of planning in all departments is the root cause of all problems.

Had they planned for anything, we would not be suffering right now.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 12:41 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

American population crossed 300 million few years/months ago, which is less than double of Pakistan. I know this, since it was widely reported in international media at the time. USA's population is around 306 million. According to USA, 100-110 million people pay taxes.

Notice the ammount of available, unused land in US + Canada alone.

My point: Population HAS grown exponentially in the world since the industrial revolution started in the last century. Having said that, population growth isn't the problem. The problem is the world has been under bad leadership i.e., bad managers, for decades, if not centuries.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 12:45 #
toamin
member

Right, actually it is not about scarcity of land or resources, it is lack of planning in distribution and development.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 12:47 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@kq: I raised basic questions that relate to people and their government.

I'm interested in hearing your 'intellectual' point of view, after going through the information that has already been presented on this thread.

Posted 2 years ago on 23 Dec 2009 13:16 #
kq
Member

hariskhan,

"What has govt. done to date to control rapid growth ? What does Govt. of Pakistan have to show off for their efforts ?"

Finally, after all the nonsense and unrelated stuff about enough land and resources available, and everyone shifting to Australia (totally unrealistic), and the shortcomings and inefficiency of the government, you make one sensible statement.

Your that one question is alone to answer all the fallacies you and jjkhan are peddling. If there is no problem of land and resources like you people are stating, why try to control population growth at all? Lets keep on having kids like there's no tomorrow!

That question points to relationship b/w state and individual. If the govt. says two kids are good, are you willing to accept that. Will you as an individual have two kids or will you have way more than two. Do you consider your right to have as many kids as you want, and then expect the state to provide a decent quality of life for them. Is that a rational approach. Should you make this decision on you own, or is it something in which the state should be consulted. Ultimately it is the state which will provide the amenities and facilities for your children to succeed, should'nt it have a say in this very important decision, so that it can plan and prepare effectively. Would you consider it state intrusion into your personal affairs.
Think about it and let me know.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 2:49 #
toamin
member

@KQ

Right, the question points to governance i.e. the relationship between individual and ruler but you wasted half of your post writing about population growth.

Population growth and control by govt is not the relationship between ruler and civilian, please move forward.

Population growth is one thing and population planning is another thing, plz do not confuse the two.

Last but not least, prove my argument is weak with counter logic or evidence. By just terming it childish, false, or weak doesn't make it such it just shows your narrow irritated mind.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 3:04 #
kq
Member

jjkhan,

From your earlier posts it is evident that you believe there is no population problem at all, it is a governance problem. If you state that the color of the sun is black, what can i say, you are entitled to your viewpoint.

"Population growth and control by govt is not the relationship between ruler and civilian, please move forward."

Can you tell me why should there not be a relationship b/w state and civilian on this issue. Also, population growth and population planning are interrelated things. How can you do population planning when you donot have some control over growth. Won't there be a high probability that your plans are wrong.

Also, why don't you address the the questions i have asked hariskhan in the last paragrpah.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 3:20 #
toamin
member

kq,

Quite stubbornly you insist on pushing the same argument again and again.

Again using a term like childish, false, or black color sun are not the way to answer a logical argument.

Pakistan does not face problem in scarcity of resources, resources are already exceeding what current population can consume. Take for example sugar production or wheat production or rice production etc, the production is already more than what the whole population consumes.

This is all done via 50% cultivation of the land that Pakistan has with 50% yield capacity, 50% cultivatable land is laying vacant which can be used to produce much more. Imagine if we can improve yield ratio and add in more land for cultivation!

Keeping the resource power in sight I say that we do not have problem with population growth but need planning.

Govt needs to plan for people and see things 5-10 years ahead based on previous year trends/statistics to formulate solutions.

What is relationship between an individual and state?

Simple answer:

A VOTE!

individual gives vote to MPA/MNA and then MPA/MNA has 5 years to do as he like until next time he returns back for vote again.

I hope now the needle stuck at one point will move or it is the agony of failed abuse report that is giving you discomfort?

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 3:28 #
javedsheikh
Members

United Nations conducted a Survey about the following proposition:

Would you PLEASE give your HONEST OPINION about FOOD SHORTAGE in the REST OF THE WORLD?

The survey badly failed, because,

• In Africa people didn’t know what FOOD is
• Chinese didn’t know what OPINION is.
• European didn’t know what SHORTAGE is.
• Pakistan didn’t know what HONESTY is.
• Saudi didn’t know what PLEASE is.
• American didn’t know what REST OF THE WORLD is.

(SMS from Miss Claire to Nazir Naji)

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 3:36 #
kq
Member

jjkhan,

Again, how will the government effectively plan when it does not have control over population growth.
I agree presently planning is done on previous year trends/statistics. But is that accurate. Is there a guarantee that the trends will be the same for the future.
Imagine for a minute that the population trends in the future will exceed the maximum amount of food production possible (all land is cultivated). Still would you insist that the state should'nt control population growth.

And as for land cultivation thing, you should realize that Pakistan has limited water resources. Sindh keeps shouting that it does not get its full share of water, and in many coastal places sea water has started intruding into the agricultural areas rendering them useless. If we had enough water, trust me Balochistan would have been an agricultural powerhouse by now. Now don't say there is no water problem at all, or that is all due to govt. inefficiency. Pakistan has limited water, and agriculture requires water. That is a fact.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 3:45 #
toamin
member

@kq,

*Water

We have enough water, rest assured on this point. The problem lies with water management:

-Storage
-Water Loss
-Distribution

*Population

Population growth trends are known and documented, these trends do not deviate by much so planning for 5-10 is no hurdle. Data & statistics tell you and give you exact information needed to plan. Govt can plan for 3% or 4% growth, it is not going to jump from 3% to 13%, it will remain with the mean deviation.

*Planning

Look at govt's planning on taxation! You will see how thorough they are when it comes to extortion of funds from masses! They will inject 25 rupees TV fees in electricity bill to rip off all masses irrespective of having a tv or not having a tv.

They raise electricity tariff, gas tariff to pay back IMF and do very detailed planning on how much funds will come in based on statistics and data available on population with trends.

Why can't same info be used for development planning?

Don't you want to keep the thread on relationship between ruler and civilian?

Then that is just casting of vote, that is all!

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 4:17 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@kq: My friend, I have once again given you hard facts. I have put forward that which is the truth, the reality on the ground today. You can't dismiss my words without logic or valid points.

You have yet to come up with valid, logical points on the original topic.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 8:23 #
kq
Member

jjkhan,

You just claim that we have enough water. Here are some facts about Pakistan water resources.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20061\18\story_18-1-2006_pg7_27
http://southasiainvestor.blogspot.com/2009/03/world-water-day-water-scarcity-hurting.html

Your basic premise that there is no limitation of natural resources. That is wrong, Pakistan has limited resources, and a growing population put would a greater stress on them.
You don't respond to my questions at all, and keep peddling your viewpoint. You keep on harping about mismanagement (which is present but not the focus of this topic).

Again, as you don't want to believe there is problem of limited resources, imagine for a moment there is. Should the government, then try to curb population growth and would you as an individual support it, or do you feel it is a violation of your basic rights. Would you agree to limit the number of children per family or not. Would you simply vote out that government, how will that change reality. The new government cannot create water out of thin air.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:17 #
kq
Member

hariskhan,

You don't even answer my questions. Trying doing that first.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:20 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@kq: Your entire argument seems to be based on an illusion (imagination), rather than fact. Such discussions are impractical, and will always prove worthless, waste of time.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:23 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@kq: Please note, I re-read your original post.

I want you to present facts against your argument which support 'your' theory that "government can't keep up with the pace of growth". That indeed growth is the problem we face.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:27 #
kq
Member

hariskhan,

My argument is a fact. we have limited resources. just check the links i posted.
On the contrary, it is you who believe that this all imaginery. Why don't you give me facts that Pakistan has limitless natural resources, and population growth is not a problem at all instead of just claiming it(and don't bring in Australia in, that argument is completely imaginery, the whole world isn't going to shift there).

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:33 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

I just re-read the original post again.

The topic of this thread is;

Disconnect b/w the Individual & State

The topic and content of the original post, is in direct! relation to 'governance' 'of the state'.

ALL my statements above are relevant and to the point.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:37 #
kq
Member

hariskhan,

Where have i used it for humans in my original post. I have used the word individual or citizen. Can you point that out where i have used it for humans.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:39 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@kw: READ!! the point #8 I made in my first post on this thread. PLEASE! read it. It says;

Eighth, Pakistan was ready to give 700,000 acres of fertile land to Saudi Arabia, why doesn't Govt. of Pakistan give that land to people of Pakistan ?

That fertile land is unused. Was I unsuccessful in conveying this to you ?

P.S. I regret my words. It is hard to keep one's self calm, when the one you are talking to can't see what is right in-front of him.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:39 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

I re-read the original post. I'm sorry! It was my bad. I retract my statement about 'it'.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:44 #
toamin
member

@kq,

I think my point was missed, I said if we take population vs production (wheat/rice/cotton/sugar/etc) then we see that we have more produce than what is consumed by the population.

Water is wasted due to lack of storage, every year monsoon water is wasted.

I don't know how are you equating individual/state relation with population growth?

Population growth is a positive thing, perhaps you are worried about rate of growth and want to reduce the rate of growth? ??

I have already stated that we have much more resources than what current population consumes and we have capacity to double that too!

Now you tell us how is rate of growth of population related with solution that you stubbornly keep on repeating.

You have failed to give one reasonable argument in response to Haris' and my points?

Give us some rational solution as we are giving you rational solution based on data/facts.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:47 #
kq
Member

hariskhan,

please me give actual facts about Pakistan limitless natural resources like i have about pakistan's water resources. Your point#8 isn't a fact.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:50 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

O .. wow! kq has completely ignored the recent published news in Pakistan's news media about Pakistan Govt. (Zardari govt.) selling Saudi Arabia 700,000 acres of Pakistan's fertile land.

How does one talk to a man like 'kq' in such a situation, where he openly and stubbornly counts fact as roumer and roumer as fact ?

I'm about 'this' far from putting you on ignore 'kq'.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:52 #
kq
Member

Guys, i think this is going nowhere. You have viewpoints and beliefs very different from mine. Its to much time consuming to convince you guys.
Javedsheikh, understood my post easily. You guys don't seem to get what i am saying, maybe its my mistake. Anyways you can keep on believing that the only connection b/w the state & citizen is the vote and that citizen must expect the state to fulfill all its wishes, disregarding the ground realities.
Good luck.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 9:59 #
toamin
member

Right on Haris, every year we hear 'bumper crop' is produced and govt issues permits for export, 20 million ton is national consumption where as 22-24 million ton is produced.

This produce is with current fragile infrastructure and this yield can be raised to 4-5 times with very simple steps of giving better seed/fertilizer/sprays/etc

Obviously member who initiated the thread is unaware of Pakistan's production capacity and is complaining about scarcity of resources due to population growth.

He is missing info on very basic facts about Pakistan, what solution can he give to masses?

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 10:00 #
toamin
member

kq,

Nice exit strategy!

You want to exit by calling other's ideas childish, false, belief, black sun bla bla, but can't bring any counter idea or solution.

Fine, but it is on record here that you couldn't give one reasonable argument to support your flawed population theory.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 10:03 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Javaid Sheikh sb. is wrong when he says 'economic growth' is dependent on just one factor i.e., 'population growth'. There are many other factors that are part of the equation.

Javaid Sheikh sb. says economic growth is hampered by political turmoil. That is correct.

Political turmoil has nothing to do with 'population growth'

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 10:04 #
kq
Member

jjkhan,

I gave you facts about pakistan's water resources. did you even read that. you just claim that there is no problem of resources at all. If you don't want to believe, your choice. No use of wasting time on you.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 10:07 #
toamin
member

I tried, but it is a broken link. See for yourself.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 10:10 #
tipuS65
Members

Moulvioun naie koun saie apna becha educate karna hota haie. Paida kar kaie us ko mehlay maie roti mangnaiy bejh detaiy hain. Mudrasay maie muft education or govt ka camp maie routian.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 10:15 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tipuS65: If you want to talk about this subject, we can talk about it as well.

This is yet another one of the responsibilities of the state, within a Muslim Nation/State.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 10:27 #
tipuS65
Members

Haris Khan can you point me to the text from where you are getting your information about responsibilities of the muslim state? I would like to read it.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 10:30 #
toamin
member

Let us start from "Medina Model" established by Nabi SAS and then continued by Khulafah-e-Rashideen.

Ever read how they ran the state and with what political model?

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 10:35 #