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Do Pakistanis truly understand Democracy?

(55 posts)
  1. ARCANE
    Member

    Many Pakistanis have been singing the song of democracy, yet they have no understanding of Democracy!

    Youtube gets blocked (or not- that could be just rumors) and ppl jumpin up and down \"oh no.....youtube is blocked! The end of time is near....\" what not!

    First and foremost Democracy is about Right to Free Speech - which most Pakistanis cannot tolerate. If anyone disagrees with us we begin to quarrel and call eachother names.

    Now we had a thread here simply about Islam! Obviously the hypocritical \"democracy\" supporters had that thread closed because they didnt like it or whatever!

    Democracy is not maintained by trees or houses or this earth, but by the People! If we want Democracy then we have to CHANGE ourselves!

    But most of the so-called Democracy lovers will not change, because they want thier own version of Democracy: Imposing their Rule of Law on others, forcing others to discuss ONLY what they like, discouraging people to discuss, and the list goes on!

    I am not upset that the thread was closed, but it is quite disturbing to see ppl who claim to support Democracy, complain and close a thread that DEMOCRACY ALLOWS & PROMOTES!

    Freedom of Religion is part of Democracy! We all need to learn the system before we start supporting it! Otherwise all we are going to have is Feudalocracy - which I am sure many of my fellow Pakistanis would love!

    Posted 4 years ago on 01 Mar 2008 4:27 #
  2. ARCANE
    Member

    Peterpan, yk, Revivalist, Letsdoit, Rafi and all others who participated productively in the \"Islam\" thread, THANK YOU for all your intelligent and meaningful POSTS! It was great discussing with you points that really matter! Thanks for all your views, and if I offended anyone, pls forgive me!

    Freedom, tolerance and love 4 all!

    Posted 4 years ago on 01 Mar 2008 4:38 #
  3. Revivalist
    member

    @ ARCANE

    Thanks bro for your kind words.

    This is undeniably the actual face of democracy where you have to speak the way they want you to speak where you have to think the way they want you to think. You are free as long as you are playing with in the regulations they set for you, but if you will traverse the limit they will outlaw you. There for I must say that Democracy is hypocrisy, duplicity as well as Elitocracy.

    Regards

    Posted 4 years ago on 01 Mar 2008 11:01 #
  4. Dated: August, 21-2006
    To,
    The Nation

    DEMOCRACY IS A SOCIAL CONTRACT NOT A CONSTITUTION

    Dear Sirs,

    Your attention is drawn to the failed 1973 Constitution. The main reason for the failure of the Constitution that it could not defend itself during 1977 and 1999. Clause 6 of the constitution is imaginary not practical. This clause may create love for Politicians but does not give any solution as to how can a suspended/dismissed parliament can provide a law for punishment of persons found guilty of HIGH TREASON and who will bring them to justice?

    The 1973 constitution’s Sovereign Code conflicts with the judiciary, Mulla and Army Codes. The author of the constitution was completely alien to the principals of Sovereign Code. Thus he failed to synchronize the ideology and cultural code and could not design metonym common codes for the nation’s identity. The sovereign code of the constitution is copy of British sovereign code colored with French Sovereign Code without addressing antonym code of the two systems. Therefore it was not possible to synchronize its codes with our culture and ideology. The Constitution reflects the ignorance of the author toward the Metonym code, ideology code and the cultural code of democracy.

    This was the time when the nation had still not recovered from the shock of the disgraceful hand over of one wing to the enemy. The disintegrated and frustrated nation was not in proper mind frame to adopt any new constitution. United leaders imposed 1973 constitution on Divided Voters/Nation.

    The Constitution basically defines The manners in which sovereign Power is distributed, it is on the contrary and gives absolute powers to the Prime Minister to appoint. COAS, CJ, Secretary, Ambassador and Ministers Etc, including transfer, Posting of Key Jobs. As a result it gave birth to Mr. Bhutto’s dictatorship that used his absolute powers to appoint Mr. Zia by setting aside all requisite rules and regulation and by passed his seniors in the hierarchy. Mr. Bhutto’s objective was to control the reins of Army and to continue his dictatorship as long as he wished. But circumstances and the Mullas provided Mr. Zia an opportunity to send Bhutto to gallows. The constitution was subsequently amended and President became competent to appoint COAS. The history was repeated and Mr. G.I Khan appointed Mr. Kakkar ignoring all deserving Generals senior to Mr. Kakkar again with motive to continue as President as per his sweet will. This time situation and ground reality empowered Mr. Kakkar to forcibly and disgracefully obtain resignations from President and P.M. Again the Constitution was amended and prime Minister was empowered to appoint COAS. Once again Mr. Nawaz Sharif appointed Mr. Pervez Musharaf ignoring those seniors who had family relationship with Politicians. But again the constitution was helpless and global demands strengthened the hands of Mr. Pervez to exile Mr. Nawaz to Jeddah. How long can we circumvent the constitution and end up with amendments and failure?

    Politicians, Generals, Journalists, Jurists and Mullas, all of them demand Democracy. But none of them knows the metonym code, ideology code and cultural code of democracy. Leader must have the knowledge of DECODING OF CIVILIZATIONS for formulation of new codes. Any leader without this knowledge will be disastrous for the nation and that is our dark story after OTTOMAN ERA. Democracy is not constitution. It is a SOCIAL CONTRACT which demands new coding of corporate culture in our British Colonial System, in consonance with the ideology, religion, resources, opportunities and the manners in which sovereign power is distributed. Leaders provide a beacon for the right path to the nation and rulers keep the nation aligned toward the Path provided by the leader. Leader never Rules and Ruler can not lead the nation. Only a DICTATOTOR is self proclaimed leader and ruler.

    I have observed analyzed and decoded the western and eastern civilizations and their economic reforms for nineteen years and have practical exposure to almost forty countries. If the nation agrees for National Government then I can provide the knowledge of new coding of corporate culture with most advanced system in consonance with the ideology, religion, culture, resources, opportunities and the manners of sovereign power. I feel disturbed to see my Country in total disorder.

    United We Stand and Divided We Fall
    Best wishes for a Prosperous Pakistan

    SYED AMMAR BUKHARI

    for details log on.
    http://www.goodgovernance.org.pk

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Mar 2010 13:13 #
  5. ghauri
    Member

    fake democracy an interesting article in daily mashriq http://www.dailymashriq.com.pk/oppion/bibil.html

    Posted 2 years ago on 30 Mar 2010 15:59 #
  6. We should recover the balance that has been upset by evil forces before it is too late

    http://www.maemaar.org.pk/

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 6:41 #
  7. Revivalist
    member

    Purani yadai taza kar di is thead nay, its a thread initiated in 2008 by ARCANE.....

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 8:21 #
  8. yes , a good and thought provoking thread indeed.
    but got a very low response ;dono why????

    in my opinion to the given topic;
    Pakistanis does not understand the true meaning of democracy .
    and its unfortunate ...
    but its not the fault of Pakistanis .
    its the fault of our so called leaders and establishment ;who has shown us a fake and flimsy type of democracy ...

    real democracy is still too far from us ....

    where elections can not be engineered .
    votes can not be manipulated ....
    fake degree holders wont get any place in the set up .
    and above all ;
    everybody answerable to the public ...

    these basic values of democracy ,are yet to be established .

    and well ,we are waiting for the good day ...

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 8:28 #
  9. Revivalist
    member

    Beenai,

    I believe democracy has inherited flows which the founders of democracy agree and many more that strongly advocates democracy. They agree that democracy has many flaws but because we don’t have any better alternative or option therefore we have adopted democracy.

    Its indeed true looking at the western society and their dark ages where church was all and all and they wanted to get rid of divine.

    As for as we Muslims are concern we had no problem in our entire history and that’s why we don’t have even the term democracy (peoples rule) in our books. Hence we have our own ruling system which is far superior then any other system present in the world but unfortunately we don’t understand it or we try to understand it in bits and pieces wearing the glasses of western oriantalists.

    The ruling system we have in nothing but Khilafah, which has its detail structure etc, and only by re-establishing it we can get rid of all these corrupt elite class which is the product of democracy, can reunify the Ummah, its resources and can protect her.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 9:13 #
  10. We perfectly well understand democracy, people. It was something we the Muslims practically invented and applied (after the early Parthians). See how the Prophet (PBUH) ran his earthly domain with absolute democracy and equality for all. Then the whole idea got hijacked by the West as all things, and developed into the rotten practices we have come to know today the world over. One of the greatest democrats of all times was our own Allama Iqbal. Go and read him, if you still allow yourselves the luxury of reading.

    Let me end by quoting Professor Arnold who was an outstanding orientalist in his time: "In the hour of its political degradation, Islam has achieved some of its most brilliant conquests. On two great historical occasions, infidel barbarians have set foot on the necks of the followers of the Prophet, the Seljuk Turks in the eleventh and the Mongols in the thirteenth century, and in each case the conquerors have accepted the religion of the conquered." Now I ask you friends, are the enemies surrounding us today on a par with the Seljuk Turks and the Mongols? A resounding No to that. We'll get rid of them with no problem at all when Allah wills.

    And then we'll have our Islami Nizam with our original democracy as our political system. Read your political Iqbal, people, read your political Iqbal.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 9:51 #
  11. Now the democracy

    what is real meaning of democracy

    democracy--------------------->demo-crazy

    The biggest fault in democracy is it is satan trap

    Now

    Democracy in Pakistan

    How democracy change the laws of Allah

    Many Pakistanis believe that Pakistan's constitution is Islamic one. Pakistan is being ruled by constitution of 1973 and mentioned below is a study of few points from official opening page of constitution.

    We need not to read the whole constitution to see why it contains Kufr. Opening page is enough to see Kufr contained in man made law...

    Quote:
    “Have you seen those (hypocrites) who claim that they believe in that which has been sent down to you, and that which has been sent down before you, and they wish to go for judgment (in their disputes) to the Taghut (false judges) while they have been ordered to reject them?” Holy Quran: 4:60

    The above verse of Holy Quran makes it clear that legislation, ruling or another type of Hukm only and only belongs to Allah. Unfortunately, we have fallen deep into the trap of Shaitan as we are being ruled by kufr system which is called demo-crazy.

    Democracy is a system defined as "government of the people, for the people, from the people to the people". In a democratic society, people can make laws that can change the ruling of Allah swt, thus inviting His swt's wrath and anger.

    In order to see obvious Kufr in constitution of 1973, we need not to describe the whole constitution. Rather we can only study opening “Preamble” of the Constitution and we will see how kufr is contained in it.

    Statement’s in green is from “Preamble” of Constitution of 1973.

    Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;

    This opening statement seems to be perfect and no sensible person can disagree with what this first statement means. Allah swt alone is sovereign over everything that exists or we are aware or unaware of. Important point here to note is the statement “…authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan WITHIN limits prescribed by Allah…” Now it means that all of the decisions will be made according to Allah’s law as His swt’s laws are the limits which He swt has set for the prosperous survival of humanity on planet earth as long as Allah swt wills.

    Now let’s see below how this statement is violated

    And whereas it is the will of the people of Pakistan to establish an order:-

    Now this is the second statement and it’s a clear contradiction of the statement made above. According to Shariah, it’s not the “will of people” to establish an order. It is order of Allah swt to establish His Will that needs to be obeyed willingly or un-willingly by the people.

    If “will of the people” is something except complete obedience of Allah swt, then all other “wills or desires” are without any doubt from Shaitan.
    Allah (SWT) says in the Qur’an:

    ‘…Those who follow their rational desires wish you to have a grave diversion so that you may become part of them…’ [Holy Quran 4-27]

    Allah swt is warning Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessing of Allah be Upon Him)) and Sahaba (ra) that if they follow desires of the people they will certainly go astray. Ummah needs implementation of true message of only one Legislator i.e. Allah swt upon themselves.

    Allah swt says,

    …Verily Allah sent the Messenger with the Deen of guidance and truth in order to dominate over all other Deens (i.e. religions; such as Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism and ideologies; such as capitalism, democracy, Communism etc. ) even if the idolaters dislike it…’ [Holy Quran 9:32 & 33]

    Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;

    State has no powers or rights. This is not an Islamic concept. In al-Islam ‘Hukm” belongs to Allah swt alone and this has been mentioned various times in Holy Quran.

    The command [Hukm] rests with none but Allah… [Holy Quran 6:57, 12:40, 12:67]

    To Him belongs the Command [Hukm]…[Holy Quran 6:62, 28:70, 28:88]

    the Command [Hukm] is with Allah, the most High, the Most Great [Holy Quran 40:12]

    Also, Allah does not share His Command [HUKM] with anyone, specially NOT WITH STATE

    …He does not share his Command [Hukm] with anyone [Holy Quran 18:26]

    Allah commands the Prophet Muhammad [Peace and Blessings of Allah Be Upon Him) to proclaim that Allah is the only One who can command

    Proclaim (O Muhammad): "Our god, Initiator of the heavens and the earth, Knower of all secrets and declarations, You are the only One who judges [tahkumu] among Your servants regarding their disputes." [Holy Quran 39:46]

    Say (O Muhammad): "Shall I seek for judge [HAKAMan] other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. [Holy Quran 6:114]

    =Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed

    Now above statement is a lie made by enemies of Islam to fool general Muslim population. Since when democracy became the principal of Islam ?

    This is how Shaitan successfully plays the trick. Human freedom from worshiping idols is guranted by Islam. Freedom to strugglefor Jannah is provided by Allah swt by doing what He swt has ordered. Freedom to save ourselves from hell fire is granted by Islam. So are the other principals of equality, tolerance and social justice.

    But democracy is a system that Kafirs believe is replacement of Shariah. Democracy as defined earlier is a system by the people for the people. Sharia’h is a system from Allah for mankind to govern this planet as long as we are here.

    Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;

    “Enabling Muslims to live according to teachings of Islam” is a dodgy statement. Enable means that opportunity will be provided or permission will be granted. Now if permission needs to be given to Muslims to practice Islam, this obviously means that system granting permission is above Islamic law.

    The correct statement should have been that ‘Muslims shall be ordered to live their lives… according to teachings and requirements of Islam”. It is responsibility of Dar-ul-Islam to make sure that Muslims living under their rule do not break their covenent with Allah swt. Khilafa makes sure that its covenant with Allah swt is supreme.

    You can very well see how slight shift of words can make a difference. This is how **** governments have decieved general public and amazingly so called puppet scholars have remained quite

    Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities freely to profess and practise their religions and develop their cultures

    It needs to be done as permitted and allowed by Allah swt only and it was necessary to mention this in the above statement if really intentions were to accept the soveriginity of Allah swt.

    Dedicated to the preservation of democracy achieved by the unremitting struggle of the people against oppression and tyranny;

    It's all about democrazy not about Shariah of Allah swt.

    Faithful to the declaration made by the Founder of Pakistan, Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, that Pakistan would be a democratic State based on Islamic principles of social justice;

    A Muslim needs to remain faithful to Allah swt by all means possible and this statement is a deceptive one linking democracy with Islamic social justice. Democracy is not equal to Islamic Social Justic, it is always opposite as no man made law can give “responsible” freedom as compare to law of Allah swt i.e. Shariah

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 9:52 #
  12. democracy ka matlub wohi jo Allam Iqbal samjha gaye humko:

    Jamhoriat aik tarz e hukumat hay kay jis mein
    bandon ko gina kartay hain,tola nahin kartay

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 9:58 #
  13. psycho, here Iqbal at his brilliant analytical best:

    "Democracy, then, is the most important aspect of Islam regarded as a political ideal. It must,however, be confessed that the Muslims with their ideal of individual freedom, could do nothing for the political improvement of Asia. Their democracy lasted only thirty years and disappeared with their political expansion".

    Iqbal, Muslim Political Thought - A Reconstruction, p. 101

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 10:05 #
  14. agree with Allam Iqbal and Mirza Ghalib ....:):):)

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 10:07 #
  15. Revivalist
    member

    Psycho,

    You have raised some very good points and clarified it giving reference from both the constitution and Quran. However, the problem we face today is that the principle of accepting the lesser evil is introduced to our society, where now people are forced to select the lesser evil i.e. MMA is better than ANP, PML (N) is better than PPP etc. The basic criteria to judge right from wrong have been taken away from the general masses.

    If we make Quran, Sunnah, Ijma and Qiyas as our only sources we can revive us quickly, i have seeing this happening in the Muslims Alhamdulillah....

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 10:07 #
  16. Thanks, choosy.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 12:49 #
  17. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    What democracy are we talking about ? Western democracy or the idea of democracy that Islam gives ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 13:04 #
  18. pakitruthseeker
    Blocked

    'idea of democracy that Islam gives ' ?????

    What is Islam's idea of democracy ?

    I've heard Munawwar Hassan praising government of Taliban of Afghanistan., was their government a democratic one ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 13:08 #
  19. No way Western. When will we ever learn that all things Western are tainted for us? Oh, let's have the West in again. They're just across the border, after all. And then one might just about learn how tainted this whole lot really are.

    No, Islamic democracy. Like poor much maligned Zaid Hamid, I can only repeat his central message. Read Iqbal, for heaven's sake. Read Iqbal. And by that I don't mean his great poetry. But his political writings. You'll see in a jiffy what is meant by political Islam. No campaigning. No political parties, etc., etc. But before we get so far. We need our extremely rich Islami code of justice in place which will leave not one man hungry in the country, without education and housed like human beings.

    Let me quote something from Iqbal: "The idea of universal agreement is, in fact, the fundamental principle of Muslim constitutional theory. "What the Muslim community considers good," said the Prophet once, "God also considers good." It is probably on the authority of this saying of the Prophet that Al-Ash'ari developed his political dogma - "That error is impossible in the united deliberations of the whole community."

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 13:28 #
  20. Revivalist
    member

    We need to get our self out from the misconception of the terms "western Democracy" and "Islamic Democracy" there is no such term as western Democracy or Islamic rather its only democracy, which stands for people's rule and on the negation of divine laws, which begot concepts like "FREEDOM" etc.

    I sincerely request all my brother and sisters not to confuse themselves in the term "Islamic Democracy" please. It’s like saying Islamic corruption (God forbid).

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 14:03 #
  21. For Islami corruption (God forbid) - wholly in agreement.

    For Islamic democracy (thank God) - wholly in disagreement. There is such a thing. And we'd do well to revive it. West democracy is fake and sham. The way democracy was practised in Islam, on the other hand, would be genuine and completly cut out all that stuff about electioneering, campaign funds, rigged elections, etc. I can see it as being open, and truly a process wherehy the best get elected, not the wealthiest or best-placed to capture the vote, etc. So the distinction must be maintained.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 14:14 #
  22. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Ok, so Islam doesn't propose democracy. Islam proposes Khilafat. Is that's how it is ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 14:20 #
  23. Good HK, fine. Now be so good as to give us a description, short and to the point, of what you mean by Khilafat, please. So we know which one to choose. But the Prophet's way was democracy. But let that be.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 14:22 #
  24. i agree with

    Revivalist

    there is no concept as such Islamic democracy or Westren Democracy

    Some people like Qadiyani and Zionist Muslim are giving the Idea of Islamic Democracy to furnsih their mortal shop

    Delivering democrazy has become the all-purpose justification for every crime perpetrated by Western governments against other people. It is not only used to justify Western intervention in other countries’ internal affairs to subvert political processes but also used to justify invasion and occupation of their lands in order to “deliver” democracy whether they want it or not. Gunboat diplomacy of yester-years has been replaced by cruise missile democratization of today.
    Before we consider the nature of democracy, let us consider some assumptions on which such projects are launched. From the effortless superiority of the British to the Manifest Destiny of America, the rest of the world is expected to comply with the demands of the West. In the past it was “British interests” that had to be safeguarded; now “American interests” have become sacrosanct even if in the process, millions of people are threatened with extinction. This is evident in Afgha-nistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen as well as Iran and the larger Persian Gulf bristling with American warships and armed with cruise missiles. There is not an inch of territory anywhere — on land or sea — that is not infested with American warriors armed with lethal weapons pushing US interests

    Reality of democrazy
    What is the reality of democrazy in practice? Political systems in all Western societies are tightly controlled by the elites. People with money manipulate the system to their advantage. The masses are simply used as a vote bank to endorse whatever policies are put forward by competing elites belonging to the same class. In the past, feudal elites controlled the system and used it to advance their landed interests; with industrialization and development of the banking sector, a new class of people emerged. Now multinational corporations manipulate the system so that their interests are protected and advanced. People are asked to choose between the same set of elites that represent elite interests, not those of the masses. This has been compared to mice being asked to choose between different colors of cats to rule them: black, white, brown or other.

    Political System

    Political systems also need to be looked at a little closer. While it is claimed that people are free to choose, only a tiny minority of people do so in reality. For instance, political parties are controlled in such a way as to make it impossible for outsiders to enter or represent the wishes of the people. Theoretically, political parties are open to everyone but since their operations depend on money, they must pander to the wishes of the rich. Politics being an expensive sport, the moneyed classes are able to influence party policies to suit their interests. Western political thinkers have been quite candid about what must be done. Walter Lippmann, a leading American journalist and political philosopher of the 20th century, wrote, “The public must be put in its place,” so that the elite may “live free of the trampling and the roar of a bewildered herd,” whose “function” is to be “interested spectators of action,” not participants. Lippmann’s worry was unfounded as the 18th century British philosopher David Hume had already observed two centuries earlier. He could not contain his surprise “to see the easiness with which the many are governed by the few; and to observe the implicit submission with which men resign their own sentiments and passions to those of their rulers.”

    The Rulers

    The rulers in turn are subservient to the corporate elite. While the masses’ “interest” in the political spectacle is maintained by a dutiful media, owned and controlled by the same corporate elite, politics has been turned into a sport. It has become a circus where each player responds to the crack of the ring master’s whip wielded by a member of the elite club. The masses are made to believe that they are free to “choose” their leaders but these have already been chosen for them by the corporate elite that control the system. The masses are asked to choose between competing elite representatives. In any case, after elections, unelected advisors and other parasites surround “elected” leaders to ensure they comply with the demands of the elites. Even when the masses are opposed to some policies such as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, their wishes are ignored

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 14:37 #
  25. OK, psycho, tell me this. Why did Iqbal think so highly of Islamic democracy, especially as practised in the first 30 years after the birth of Islam? You are the great Iqbal specialist. You should have an answer to my question. And this is very serious for me. Either you reject Iqbal on this point or else you feel what he thought then not suitable for our worldly conditions today. Which is it?

    Anyway, what is clear to me is only Momins should rule over a Muslim community. People with a hatred of power, money and material things. Oh, this is getting out of hand. See if you can answer my question, please.

    P.S. Have we suddenly discovered our greatest Muslim thinker and poet was actually closet Qadiyani or a Zionist agent?

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 14:49 #
  26. It is a reality that most people in Pakistan dont even want to be part of democratic prcess so if people dont want to be part of democracy then how come they understand democracy???Another thing is that people who vote for someone dont defend their vote for any reason so if people dont defend their vote then how would they understand that the person whom they voted was right person and that is why we see MPAs and MNAs having so many criminal cases on them as well....Let me give an example of how much our people know about Democracy...

    Its a well known comment from MQm haters that "operation is needed to get rid of them" and "their is no difference between taliban and MQM"...Just to tell you about operation then why operation is needed on MQM as MQM are the elected representative of majority of people on a particular area so is it justified in democracy to clean up those who are elected representatives of any particular location in democracy???they have came up by the choice of people not by controlling it as being the choice of people they also have rights to decide what is best and what isnt as people whom elected them have faith on them and that is why they have elected them so how would military use against them be justified in democracy???Another thing is that when I read a statement that their is no difference between Taliban and MQm then just imagine that Taliban whom have never even contested the election and never being a choice of people just came with guns and took over places in Khaibar Pakhtunkuwa could be made equivalent with those who were always being a part of democratic system and got elected by majority of people's support???In the end those who dont understand things about democracy speak up things like that and due to this mindset we find leaders like Fake degrees, Credit card thief, Rape and other criminals as our leaders...

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 16:40 #
  27. O dear Mirza Ghalib

    ZARB-I KALIM (1936)

    It was published with the subtitle "A Declaration of War Against the Present Times." He argues that modern problems are due to the godlessness, materialism,democazy and injustice of modern civilisation, which feeds on the subjugation and exploitation of weak nations

    What is meaning of War at Present Time, what was present time???????. Mirza Ghalib I am man, not angel,

    why do u call me iqbal specialist, i am not iqbal

    brother i can't find his concept of Islamic democracy, can u please give me the reference for my low knoweldge, i will be very happy please don't mind my words

    He strongly critisize democrazy

    DEMOCRACY

    By some European sage
    This secret was revealed,
    Though men endowed with sense,
    Keep points like this concealed.

    Democracy means a mode
    To rule the common man
    No doubt, they count the votes,
    But conduct do not scan.

    Brother this poem is famous "Iblees ki Majis e shura"

    FIRST ADVISOR

    A good point well, my seeing eye hails,
    No danger too there from a kingship’s veil.

    We gave to kingship the masses rule’s dress,
    Self conscious now is man with self’s ingress.

    The kingship science has a different sense,
    It needs not a garb of a monarch hence.

    May be Nation’s Council or Kaiser’s court,
    A king’s eye craves a foreign land or port.

    Didn’t you see western democratic track,
    Whose face is shining but inner is black.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 16:55 #
  28. psycho, thanks, that was well done. A lot of stuff in it to ponder and reflect on. I was arguing from a great book by Iqbal called "Muslim Political Thought. A Reconstruction", Alhamra Publishing, 2002. This is a Text in Iqbal's original English. A great text, I hasten to add where over and over again, Iqbal talks about Islam and Democracy, even Social Democracy, to my delight, for it is exactly that I find when I myself read the Quran Sharif.

    I cited it above. Does not harm to do so again: "Democracy, then, is the most important aspect of Islam regarded as a political ideal. It must be confessed , however, that the Muslims, with their ideal of individual freedom, could do nothing fo r the political improvement of Asia. Their democracy lasted only 30 years and disappeared with their political expansion. Though the principle of election was not quite original in Asia (since the ancient Parthian Government was based on the same principle) yet somehow or other it was not suited to the nations of Asia in the early days of Islam". (p. 101)

    psycho, I can't give you a date for this text. It was omitted in my copy of the book. However, we all do know that in the days of the Prophet(PBUH) and his first successors, this is how things were done, democratically in the truest sense of the word. Now the poems you quote above indicate either a change of heart complete on the part of Iqbal or else he is referring to the West version of democracy. That is why I keep repeating: if we could only go back to practising the institutions of those holy times.

    "Democracy" as pratised in the West and from there on by all of us is abhorrent to me. I hate it.

    P.S. Coming times = 1936, three years before the Second World War of 1939-1945.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 17:41 #
  29. @Mirza Ghalib
    "Democracy" as pratised in the West and from there on by all of us is abhorrent to me. I hate it."

    Western style democracy certainly IS abhorent. And here I'd like to raise the issue I raised some time back about the spin we are given daily these days: That our democracy is "young", let it grow, etc. I say hogwash! For even in the West where "democracy" has been allowed to "flourish" unimpeded, what did it lead to?
    -- After more than 200 years of uninterrupted democracy, it can only bear fruits like George W Bush and Barak Obama
    -- In UK, after 800 some years it "progressed so much that it gave us Tony Blair and Gordon Brown (and now James Cameron who I can assure you will be just another poodle)
    -- In Canada we have zionist stooge Stephen Harper as Democracy's gift
    -- Greece has democarcay, so does Iceland -- and Spain and Portugal and all doing so, so well these days
    And last but not least, so does :
    -- Israel where they get to pick scum from between scum like NethanYahoo, Barak, Sharon, Perez, Olmert, Lieberman, etc.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 18:12 #
  30. Bravo, nota, bravo. Exactly what was needed to be said about democracy Western style and practised by all us round the world. No progress. An invitation to steal, loot, plunder and make war. Thanks for support there. And "scum" is just the right word for all these so-called leaders.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 18:19 #
  31. naseemkhanan
    Member

    They should be proud of their 200 year old much talked about democracy built upon genocide of entire ethnic populations after labeling them savages, repopulating with white scum from Europe helped out with innocents kidnapped from Africa as slaves and plantation culture that is now called america.
    What a grand history they have to be proud of.
    The great recession of 1930 and just a decade and a half roughly (after transporting heavy water, enriched uranium and scientists taken prisoners from war torn Germany)they quickly assemble and explode not one but two weapons of mass destruction on Japanese public. What a great democratic nation America is!
    Wanted criminals, thugs and opportunist made it known as a land of opportunity that is otherwise just another police state where freedom is confessed but not practiced.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 18:43 #
  32. Naseem, every sentence you write above rings with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I wish others were also as keen-witted and clear-sighted as you have proved yourself to be.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 19:09 #
  33. rashidsaleem
    Member

    Democracy is not only the right of people of Pakistan but it is a dire need to set the nation on a path of revival and recovery from this menace of terrorism. Agreed that in the past, we have had issues with it but this is a rejuvenated nation now and we expect better results this time.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Jun 2010 20:34 #
  34. "Agreed that in the past"?

    No one here is talking "past" here...

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 4:23 #
  35. Advancement of information technology has caused Truth to manifest itself against all odds. The credentials of truth are known by the test of time, Good, right and truth are the final, these do not merely come and go but creates new situation to restore the true balance disturbed by evil, wrong and falsehood. The time theme and its mystery with relation to human history demands to get our vision adjusted to the logic of events as they have unfolded themselves in the very beginning of 21st century.
    http://www.maemaar.org/links/con_it_government.asp

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 5:35 #
  36. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    Democracy can't be understood by the majority of our population unless feudalim is abolished and literacy rate is improved with high rates.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 6:36 #
  37. Another lesson in "understanding democracy" comes to us today from Japan:
    Japanese PM Hatoyama resigns

    “We expect whoever is elected to succeed Mr Hatoyama will maintain his policy agenda,” Mr Ichikawa said.

    (So basically there is no change but just a perception of change)

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 7:55 #
  38. Mirza Ghalib

    The Problem with the era of Iqbal is that

    ""There is muslim no state to establish the Khilafa"

    He is living under slavery

    but brother

    Known as Islamic democracy, two kinds of democratic states can be recognized in the Islamic countries. The basis of this distinction has to do with how comprehensively Islam is incorporated into the affairs of the state.[1]

    1. A democratic state which recognizes Islam as state religion, such as Malaysia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Algeria. Some religious values are incorporated into public life, but Islam is not the only source of law.
    2. A democratic state which endeavours to institute Sharia. It is also called as Islamist democracy.[1] Islamist democracy offers more comprehensive inclusion of Islam into the affairs of the state.

    This is the definition from Wiki, and Also don't believe in Wiki because they are liar

    Now Wiki also consider Pakistan as Islamic Democracy

    2 Islamic democracy in practice

    Pakistan

    Pakistan started off as the first category but has moved increasingly with the 1973 constitution to the second category, though frequent military coups have halted its democratic evolution.

    Iran
    The idea and concept of Islamic democracy has been accepted by many Iranian clerics, scholars and intellectuals. The most notable of those who have accepted the theory of Islamic Democracy is probably Iran's Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who mentions Islamic Democracy as "Mardomsalarie Dini" in his speeches.

    There are also other Iranian scholars who oppose or at least criticise the concept of Islamic democracy. Among the most popular of them are Ayatollah Makarim al-Shirazi[35] who have written: "If not referring to the people votes would result in accusations of tyranny then it is allowed to accept people vote as a secondary commandment."[36] Also Mohammad-Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi has more or less the same viewpoint.

    On the other hand, clergy like Yousefi Eshkevari believe that: The obligatory religious commandments in public domain not necessarily imply recognition of religious state. These obligations can be interpreted as the power of Muslims' religious conscience and applying that through civil society.[37] These clergies strictly reject the concept of Islamic state regardless of being democratic or not. They also believe no relationship between Islam and democracy at all, opposing the interpretation of clergy like Ayatollah Makarim al-Shirazi from Islamic state. But they do not mention how legal laws as an example can not be implemented using civil societies and how to administer a country relying on conscience only.

    This is what the detail of Wiki

    Brother there is no such as Islamic democracy, the problem is that

    U See Iran and Pakistan both are Democratic states,

    only there name is islamic

    """The Islamic Rebublic of Pakistan"

    The best system which challenges all the system of earth is system of <the Khilafa>

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 8:34 #
  39. A real barrage of comments. We were discussing Iqbal originally. Well never mind. Reading him, one almost feels one is back in the time of the Prophet, that it is possible even in this rotten 21st century beginning to revert to the marvellous conditions then. Illusions all. OK, fine. Do it all the way you think best, I'll go along with it. I know Shias are considered a borderline case in our beloved Pak. and that Ayatollah Khomeiny is often abused on this site. But Iran is the closest we've come so far in recent times to incarnate the Muslim ideal. If Pakistan could show even one percent of the courage Iran has shown, we'd be in seventh heaven by now.

    As for Japan's Hatoyama, he was an honest if weak man all along. So honest, he's also called for the resignation of good ole Ichikawa. Hope he gets it too.

    I liked the person who found us rejuvenated. May Allah hear him and help us out in our hour of need.

    HF - Did you go and have a look at the literacy rates for the Palestinians, in the 90's they are. Now that's a people to emulate. Bombs falling on your head, who cares, nothing to eat for the past two days, who cares? We carry on studying our books. And has anyone a blueprint on fair and free land distribution ready for implementation as soon as possible?

    All those I left out, all interesting comments, sorry. We'll get to speak some other day.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 8:56 #
  40. hiramir34
    Member

    @nota. We talk about Past becuz it is important. Militancy that destroyed the concept of democracy in Pakistan began in the past sumwhere in the 1970’s and today democracy is threatened by these militants.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 9:12 #
  41. I know u r discussing Iqbal,but problem is that democracy is ruled by Western thoughts not Islamic thoughts, and also brother there is no state with established Khilafa, but he only give the ideas. But now u can see

    The Pakistani constitution, which many people believe as Islamic democracy, is not Islamic, Hope Mirza U understand, I am not opposing Iqbal and His thougts i am only telling the problems of Modern Democracy

    suppose a state with Islamic democracy as u said above emerged, will it survived????

    The problem is that

    I give u the simple example brother to end here

    Many Banking have started the program of Islamic banking only to Fool people, They are not Islamic, only the name is Islamic

    The best system given by Allah and his prophet is Khilafa

    Hast thou not turned thy vision to those who declare that they believe in the revelations that have come to thee and to those before thee? Their real wish is to resort together for judgement in their disputes to the evil one (taghoot). Though they were ordered to reject him." [EMQ An-nisa:60]

    That is the problem with Democracy, brother Democracy only want people to slave,

    So Allah (SWT) has made it clear, that whoever puts his case for judgement to the evil hand, e.g. the U.N., U.S., U.K., International law or the International Court of Justice is not a real Muslim, he only claims to be one.

    Other regional organisations like the Arab League, The Organisation of Islamic conference or other defence treaties are also forbidden. Whereas Islam demands that all the Muslims are united under one state i.e. the Khilafah these organisations continue in making divisions between the Muslims by recognising and defending the separate entities of the modern nation states.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 9:28 #
  42. @hiramir
    I AM taking issue with the statement it is ONLY in the past taht we "have had an issue with democracy" (and I am NOT talking history). "Democracy" and its "illegitimacy" is an issue of the PRESENT!

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 9:33 #
  43. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @hiramir34: You are unfortunately not looking at the facts, at history, at how events have taken place inside and outside Pakistan.

    You are looking at mass media. That will get you no-where.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 9:34 #
  44. psycho, yes, now I do understand. You have made your points with admirable clarity. No answer for the present. Let me think it over. I'll be back.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 10:20 #
  45. OK, got it. I agree. On your side, no ifs and buts about it.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 10:51 #
  46. Leaders provide a beacon for the right path to the nation and rulers keep the nation aligned toward the Path provided by the leader. Leader never Rules and Ruler can not lead the nation.

    Only a DICTATOR is self proclaimed leader and ruler.

    pakistani dictatorship is an evil Democracy
    and
    pakistani damocracy is an evil Dictatorship

    http://www.maemaar.org.pk/

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 11:44 #
  47. Well I'm forced to say, S.A.B. that you above comment was well put, indeed. The truth of the matter of Pakistan's recent past in a nutshell.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 13:45 #
  48. our major problem is that 1973 constitution is not workable document which needs amendment on every step.
    it cannot differentiate good and evil..........

    http://www.maemaar.org.pk/
    i propose new constitution..............

    CONSTITUTION
    ============
    1) PREAMBLE

    We the people of God, who profess to follow the teaching and practice, ordained by true GOD, of Abraham (PBUH) and his descendent prophets, hereby express our firm desire to establish a Global Alliance of Jews, Christians and Muslins whereby each state guarantees, through the people’s right of self determination, peace and prosperity for mankind as enshrined in our common belief “IN GOD WE TRUST”.

    2) DOs
    Good, Right and Truth.

    3) DON’Ts

    Evil, Wrong and Falsehood.

    4) COMMON METONYM CODE 1

    5) MULTICULTURAL METONYM CODES 0, 1, 2, 5, 7

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 14:15 #
  49. Bukhari Sahib, our problem is this when the Godless Jews and Christians are busy killing us Muslims, how on earth do you expect us to sign up to any form of alliance with them. It is absolutely against human nature.

    Further, our "common belief" is in no way enshrined in the "IN GOD WE TRUST" slogan which is another way of designating the dying dollar. Sorry, Bukahri Sahib, should have liked to give you a better answer, but actually what you're doing at the moment sounds very much like barking up the wrong tree.

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 14:25 #
  50. Mirza Ghalib

    Brother

    So one mission

    one vision

    one nation

    one country

    one world

    one God

    one Prophet

    Islam demands that all the Muslims are united under one state i.e. the Khilafah

    Posted 1 year ago on 02 Jun 2010 14:44 #

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