Do we have courage to praise a christian hero in pakistan ?

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Do we have courage to praise a christian hero in pakistan ?

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pklondoner
Blocked

We are united, above the faith and the status. that is the true Paksitan and these are our heroes., not those who exploit our emotions by slogans and point figures or who sell Pakistan in return for Kerry-Logar aid package or break corruption record and bring us on the top of the charts of corrupt nations.

http://pkpublic.com/questions/157/do-we-have-courage-to-praise-a-christain-hero-in-pakistan-watch-this-and-decide

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 20:03 #
expakistani
Member

He is my Hero.. Allah knows better if he died as Muslim or Christian ....

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 20:22 #
ucsher
Member

@ex-pakistani
***Allah knows better if he died as Muslim or Christian***

May I ask What does this has to do with anything that he did?

..If only we could be less concerned about Divine matters and could praise what the man did without getting in to the nitty gritty of religious rhetoric!!!

I guess the comments of expakistani just show that most of us have become so religiously handicapped today that we can't even praise an entirely humanly deed done by a non-muslim without bringing our own religion (by hook or crook) in to it!

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 20:57 #
expakistani
Member

Allah knows better if he died as Muslim or Christian or Hindu...

but that guy is still my hero...and please dont count me
among religiously handicapped Muslims....

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 21:03 #
ucsher
Member

@expakistani

May I ask as to why you are spreading this confusion about his religion in the first place?

.. Unless the suicide-bomber had him recite kalma before killing him (and I say this because by all accounts the bomber was the last living thing -btw i am not using the word "human" for the bomber on purpose- that he came across before dyeing) rest assured that he died as a Christian! (period)

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 21:13 #
ucsher
Member

@ex-pakistani

Point well taken!! ..

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 21:14 #
jaypk
Member

true hero....my hats off to him..and i salute him...who cares he died muslim or christian...let God decide that..i pray that may God rest his soul in peace....so whd if he was christian...he was a human being to me first...and then a pakistani...and thn whdeva....thank god...my elders told me to respect the humanity first of all...and dn think anything else...and this is whd our religion says as well....and may b that is the reason that in another thread i was praising manmohan singhs CV but have seen quite a mixed reaction on that.....if someone has done a good deed...praise him..if someone has done a bad deed...discourage him no matter he is your own brother.......!!

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 21:15 #
pklondoner
Blocked

Dear ucsher, We are leaving this with Allah (He knows better, we are not arguing about that). Question was, can we rise above these frictions as he did for us ? for his fellow Pakistani citizens ?

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 21:17 #
ucsher
Member

@pklondoner

yes pklondoner I get your point ..but the only reason I wanted to clarify such a secondary point was because i have become sick and tired of watching my fellow pakistanis some how trying to relate Islam with non-muslims whenever they stand out in the crowd by doing something extra-ordinarily great!

and btw while ex-pakistanis second post clearly suggest that his intentions weren't what his word reflected ..but that's exactly WHAT my point was..I think while living in a parallel society like pakistan (where the minorities are almost non-existent) even our routine talk/jargon has tilted so much towards our own religion that many a times we just say something without realizing one bit as to how hostile it can be for the non-muslim pakistanis!

PRIME EXAMPLE : MOST OF OUR WELL KNOWN ANCHORS JUST USE THE WORD "HUM PAKISTAN KE TAMAM MUSALMAN ye ehed kartay hain...etc,etc" WHILE COMPLETELY IGNORING THE NON-MUSLIM PAKISTANIS (NON MATTER HOW SMALL THEIR POPULATION MIGHT BE) ON REGULAR BASIS!!
PRIME CULPRIT: HAMID MEER!

I HOPE YOU GET MY POINT!

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 21:29 #
Unique
member

The CNN have acheived exactly what they wanted. Telling the Pakistani public that the dead was Christian and the saved were Muslims.

Do you really think that Pervez Masih took the action becuase he thought he was saving Muslim girls? He just did out of humanity, his feeling of care for another life and another human being. And this should be appluded irrespective of his faith.

I do not recall CNN making programms on innocent Muslims killed by Christians in Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan or Muslims kiked by Jews in Palestine. If I have missed out, please post such a video in this thread.

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 21:32 #
ucsher
Member

@UNIQUE
Don't blame the Cnn, they are just selling you your own medicine!! i.e trying to see every thing in a highly divided black & white paradigm of Muslims vs Non-Muslims ;)

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 21:38 #
Unique
member

No I am not blaming CNN, I am blaming ourselves who get carried away by such reports.

As for "our own medicine" is concerned, I think you only need to review the facts and see who has harmed who. Muslims feel genuienly aggreived at the treatment they receive at the hands of the Western Media. Why do you think in the Western press, terms like Muslim Terrorist and Muslim Fundamentalist are used?

It is not that I am feeling sorry for ourselves, I am pointing out examples which lead to tension and sense of injustice.

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 21:57 #
pklondoner
Blocked

just for reference, This story was reported at Aaj and Express News before even CNN has glimpse about that.

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 22:04 #
ucsher
Member

@unique
Come on unique, this clashes of civilization thing only started with 9/11, but even before that we all know how every thing was being taught & fed to us from a highly religious angle, here in Pakistan!!

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 22:05 #
ucsher
Member

@pklonder
yes even geo knows showed it ..but is it even a point after watching that so-called hero of Pakistan resting among all kind of litter ?
I mean we dint even make sure that he at least rests in peace!

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 22:07 #
Unique
member

@ucsher
I agree and that is exactly what I am saying that one should not use the Religion card. If we were fed nformation which which advocated disliking or hating some one the grounds of his or her religion then it was wrong. We have to rise above this divide and never forget that our own religion teaches us to be humane. And for this very reason I agree with you that it was inhumane to bury him in such a place. On the one hand the Goverment claims that he was Pakisan's Hero and then treat him like that is most certainly inhumane. I hope mends are made.

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 22:18 #
ucsher
Member

@unique

glad to see that we were on the same page after all

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 22:22 #
pklondoner
Blocked

I believe all Pakistanis are on the same positive page, sometimes, some under the provided environment and situation loose their track. Will get better soon, can see the positive signs, at least look at this Debate.

Posted 2 years ago on 19 Nov 2009 22:28 #
semirza
Moderator

I agree with thoughts expressed by Unique. Whatever CNN portrays is according to the western ideologies. CNN never reflects positively on the Muslim world, in fact it never did.
Pervez Masih has indeed done a 'heroic deed', there is no doubt for that. He saved a life (regardless of religion of the one being saved, that he never knew!)
We should not forget that Pervez Masih is a Pakistani. Let's not converge all issues on religion only. There are many actions done by a human being when he is not conscious of the religious angle. Pervez Masih did exactly what a human being is supposed to do for a human being.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 2:37 #
Beenai
Moderator

being a Good Human is the first thing to be consider.
religion is an introduction.
good human being is an attitude towards betterment of the human lives .

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 7:10 #
toamin
member

Media machines are given task to shape human sentiments according to planned agenda so they will always portray an information with a particular spin to achieve the assigned goal.

Regarding above incident, it happened in such a short span of time that it is hard to believe the way CNN portrays this info.

The guard reacted to a particular situation without knowing the actual threat and got killed. His family should be highly compensated and given monetary support for life.

All sacrifices should be compensated with monetary awards, empty words don't fill the stomachs.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 7:27 #
jaypk
Member

my views..no offence meant to anyone..and with due respect to all above:

we have always used religion as force to gather our nation since our nation is 110% jazbaati qaum...no need to blame CNN *not supporting CNN but that is what we have been doing with our own religion. twisting and ripping it apart. if we cant be united amongst ourselves whn it comes to religion how can we point out at the west that they have the opportunity to highlight christianity in our country. we take pride in killin shias, we take pride in attacking each others mosques even we take pride while killing people whn they are actually engaged in namaz. are we forgetting that way before this suicide attacks started on our country we use to attack each others mosques with the same pattern and plz dont say thay ther were FOREIGN elements who are involved in sectarian killings tht s a joke. CNN has just captured the opportunity to sell. have they ever made a documentary on the poor jamadaars and khakroobs in our country where the majority is christians and we treat them like sh**. even we ourselves cant make a dosumentary on that since it kills our claims to be just and fair with humanity and treat everyone with equal rights. i m nt saying that muslims are not there but most of street cleaners and other jamadars are christians.every now and then we attack thr church and feel like we have made a house in heaven we have even burnt them alive at times since we are the so called thaikedars of our religion. human rights activists are public enemy number one in our country.

we definitely have to raise above this racism amongst ourselves which includes religious, sectarian, and provinced base racism and consider everyone first a human being then a pakistani and then if needed that what is your religion."We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another" its not me saying all this its Mr Jinnah.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 10:22 #
LetsDoIt
Member

He was a pakistani who died saving lives of pakistanis. Why to distinguish him as christian. He did not saved others because they were muslims, he saved pakistanis.

There is no doubt that he is a national hero not islamic or christian hero.

Here is one more related link:

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 10:51 #
gv
Member

Some of the comments above raise some really good points -

Essentially the crux of the matter is that pakistan should be for all pakistani's regardless of their religion, caste, creed etc... As someone once upon a time said "...that has nothing to do with the business of the state"

The problem is that there is a collective chip on our shoulder where we believe we will be doing islam a disservice by making pakistan a 'secular' state. In some circles the very word 'secular' is itself an obscenity...

The muslims will always enjoy a majority in this country and islam will always be held in higher regard due to the sheer force of numbers.. that does not mean that extremists and bigots be given a free hand to spread hatred and violence behind the guise of being self proclaimed torch bearers for the faith...

What puzzles me the most is that the more religiously inclined pakistani's, who should be the most confident in their faith, tend to be the most insecure about the survival of islam in this country....

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:03 #
toamin
member

Thanks for the sermon on Secularism!

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:12 #
gv
Member

you're welcome

you can add your sermon on 'good muslims' now...

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:19 #
toamin
member

You see how you used an event to promote your belief system :)

Now, I hope you wont get frustrated when other side does the same.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:24 #
jaypk
Member

@gv...agreed.

..we even call Mr jinnah secular...but who cares...i dont..!!

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:31 #
gv
Member

no that's not what frustrates me...

this is a very clear cut event... a man gets killed in the line of duty... as you rightly said earlier his family should be compensated and his deed recognized... whether he's is christian, muslim, or a scientologist should be completely irrelevant..

what frustrates me is that we have enough problems of our own but all we're focused on is finger pointing at others and refusing to acknowledge our own flaws..

and unfortunately it is those self same 'torch bearers' of islam who are front running the conspiracy theories and hate mongering...

The fact that some is religious or not should be irrelevant.. that should be between him and his god... the important thing should be how they contribute to society.. what are they doing to bail us out of this ship wreck? That contribution should be used to guage their righteousness...

So are they preaching tolerance, unity, fortitude and hard work to rectify the problem? Or are they preaching hatred and blaming outside forces for all the damage???

i think the choice is crystal clear on which one of the above deserves public support...

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:34 #
gv
Member

@jaypk

indeed - jinnah's percieved secularism or communalism should be irrelevant.. what should be irrelevant is what is the best method to bring the nation forward as a collective - and how that nation want's to move forward as a collective?

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:37 #
toamin
member

gv and jay,

Pakistan is currently governed per secular system. Govt & Judiciary are already secular.

I don't see Islamic system in practice, so what is the problem why is Pakistan so corrupt and backward?

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:38 #
gv
Member

@jj

i think we've discussed that ad nauseum on this forum...

we all know the problems... there is no quick fix... no one is against islamic system as well.... it is the particular type of people who are currently promoting an islamic system which are the problem...

so if i have a choice between ideologues like the TTP or the Hizb ur Tahrir and the Jamaat-e-Islami who are operating within a democratic order - i'd support jamaati islami who will (hopefully) allow for a political opposition...

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:49 #
ucsher
Member

Pakistan is just confused like Mj!! ..neither secular nor a theocracy!!

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:51 #
jaypk
Member

@jj

firstly...giving everyone tthe freedom to practice their beleifs wouldnt make us secular..the common impression. i m surprised that you are calling our system a secular. its not more then 2 months back whn christians were killed to honour our religious hunger. we sure are secular.

secondly...islamic system is not in practice and cant be in practie becasue there are so many so called thaikedars of islam in our country..you think these people who give fatwas of kufar against each other and dont say prayers afetr each other and have different mosques would sit together on one islamic system which you want to implement? they all have issues with that and unless these issues would not resolve kinldy dont talk about islamic system. that is for your question related to not implementing islamic system. sir correct me if i m wrong but we need to be muslims first and then sunni barelwi shia wahabi and that is the reason that saudia can be called a muslim state*which i doubt but whn you go to haj nobody asks you who you are but if you haev to say a prayer in pk you better ask who is the maulvi sahab else either you are daed or they will be cleaning the mosque after you come out.

for the q that is pk so corrupt and backward..i think we dont fear God thats it. you dont neccessarily have to be an islamic state to be successfull.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:55 #
toamin
member

Pakistan is a secular state at the moment, all spheres of life are ruled per pretty much Bitish Raj rules with little amendments.

So why giving sermons on secularism?

What we see is that secularism has given corruption and more corruption to people.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 11:58 #
gv
Member

@jj

actually i think UC sher is spot on where he says that it is a confused state... but yes your point is valid the bias is towards a secular legal code...

p.s i thought you liked my sermons!!!

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:00 #
gv
Member

also 'secularism' has not 'given' corruption in the same way that islam has not 'given' violence...

the system is never at fault.. it is the actors in the system who manipulate it to suit their ends who are at fault.. and an islamic system is as easily manipulated as a secular system... because it is dependent on the people who run it..

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:03 #
toamin
member

I think we have drifted to totally different subject and I fear mods might delete all this work.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:03 #
gv
Member

@jj

come my friend.. what are a few deleted comments in the grand pursuit of truth !!!

we will merely begin anew!!

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:05 #
toamin
member

:)

Well, let us first acknowledge that rules/codes applied on citizens of Pakistan are secular, no connection with Qur'an/Sunnah except Muslim Personal Family Laws which are also same in UK or India.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:07 #
jaypk
Member

@jj...we only want to be secular where our motives are..and move away or try to move away where we dont want to be called secular...!!

i wish and pray that one day islamic system will come inshaAllah but it doesnt mean we take eyes away from the truth which we all haev been doing as a muslim nation since it hurts our JAZBAAT.

sectarian killing and violence dont happen in secular system.!!

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:08 #
toamin
member

gv,

Could you please help me explain to 'jaypk' what I am trying to say?

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:10 #
jaypk
Member

@gv could you please help me explain to SIR JJ whd i m trying to say...!! since its very simple..!!..:)

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:12 #
gv
Member

@jj agreed to a certain extent...but the perennial question is why can't we have a continuing ijtehad in terms of islamic law... why do they have to become static??? why cannot we have new intepretations... it used to happen so why should it stop...

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:12 #
toamin
member

Brother JayPK,

I am trying to discuss technical/legal aspect of how affairs in Pakistan are organized/controlled.

If you have gone through the federal/provincial/criminal penal code/civil procedure/etc etc you will understand that what we live under is secular system -remnants of british raj.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:16 #
toamin
member

gv,

Why do we need ijtehad? Codes/rules provided by British can answer all the questions in today's life?

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:17 #
jaypk
Member

@jj..

sir i have broken the news of the century and still you dont understand me. unless you dont want to understand.:)

these thaikedars dont want the islamic system to prevail because all of them haev smoe kid of reservations on it or else it woud have been implemented by now. nobody listens to ppl like ghamidi but qazi and fazlu are the most prominent ulemas of our nation. they have been told a 100 times to give statement against sucide bombers and then they have given it. such is the condition of our so called ulemas. main or aap to islamic sytem naee lain gay na sir...yahee log lain gay na?

ab or kitna explain karwao gay bhai jaan...!! :)

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:19 #
semirza
Moderator

@ALL
It would be nice to stay on topic. Secularism has been an often discussed topic on this forum. Just to keep this thread true to the topic, you may open a thread and discuss all about secularism.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:19 #
toamin
member

JayPK,

I don't think we are on same page, Qazi/Fazlu are supporter of current system. So a secular should appreciate their en devour!

Sorry Mirza sb, last post :)

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:21 #
Adonis
Member

A hero is a hero.

Its absurd to blame Pakistanis for not honouring non-muslims. People like Justice Cornelius, Cecil Chodhry, Rustum Sidhwa, Durab Patel, Abdul Salam, Jimmy Engineer, Anil Dalpat, Danish Kaneria all belonged to non-muslim communities and were honoured and revered in Pakistan.

Only a sick mind would make an issue out of such a non-issue.

Posted 2 years ago on 20 Nov 2009 12:30 #