Is prosperity of a country directly related to democracy?

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Is prosperity of a country directly related to democracy?

(26 posts)

sipahi
Member

People claim that prosperity of a country is directly related to democracy. They give example of Western and Eastern Europe.
Do you think, this claim is true in world and is it applicable to Pakistan?

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 6:46 #
Ghost Protocol
Member

@Sipahi sahib, in my opinion, democracy is participation of people at the helm of affairs for running the governmental affairs. This empowers people and make them responsible for their actions. The assumption is that masses will take actions and adapt policies in the interest of common people and state. Their actions may lead prosperity as well. However, prosperity can not be linked only to democracy other wise India (so called biggest democracy) would be most prosperous country and Gulf countries wont be as prosperous as they are..

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 8:16 #
Adonis
Member

Democracy leads to long term stability and social cohesion. This is true for everywhere in the world.

Prosperity is usually one of the by-products of long term stability.

Of course, chance events like discovery of huge oil reserves may bring immediate prosperity to a nation but such nation will not remain stable and will not achieve equality without democracy.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 9:42 #
Hussain Farooqui
Member

We don't have the basics which are required to establish a real democracy. Some of the elements which can never let real democracy be established are:

Literacy: Our low rate of literacy. Masses of voters have no judgement of right or wrong.

Feudal System: Feudal system is the biggest hindrance in establishment of real democracy.

Lawlessness: Polling stations are stormed by criminals and votes are cast on gun-points.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 9:50 #
Adonis
Member

Low literacy rates have never been a problem in promotion of democracy. When democracy started in Europe and USA, they had very low literacy rates.

Feudal system is more of a concern of those who live in cities because in actuality, feudal lords as they are shown in TV dramas are quite scarce now. Due to natural distribution of property from generation to generation, the landholdings have decreased considerably and there is not a single national Assembly or Provincial Assembly seat in Pakistan where a "feudal" is assured of electoral victory solely due to votes of his peasants.

Maybe except for some areas of Karachi, nowhere in Pakistan are votes cast on gun points and polling stations taken over by criminals. The last time that happened was in 1977 and as a result the whole nation came out on streets against such massive and blatant rigging. Since then, all of the elections have been fair to a large extent except for perhaps 2002. Even in 2002, instead of voting on gun point, the GHQ took the refined approach of creating "ghost" polling stations that existed only in virtual world.

But accusations of rigging are also common in countries like India but they have persisted with democracy and the system gradually becomes better.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 10:03 #
TanoliMns
Member

A nation which is economically and mentally slave/handicapped cannot discern between good and bad. They don't have sagacity to elect right people and held them accountable. In pakistan 70% population are from rural areas, who are economically dependent on their feudal lord/wadairas and mentally salved (due to illiteracy) which prevent them from exercising their right to vote with independence and wisdom. Democracy in this country will make Rich more richer and poor person more poorer. So, this nation is not mature enough to bring that demoracy in the country, that you are dreaming of and is prevailing in west. They have almost 100% literacy rate and economically state is responsible to provide essential necessaties. In pakistan, till the time state does not provide economic cover to all the citizen and does make education free for everyone, we can not achieve those results which we are dreaming of. Democracy at the moment prevailing in pakistan is share dictatorship with the label democracy on it.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 10:22 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Adonis

Your post reflects your hatred for karachiteis.

U think that they cast votes on gun point. What happened in 1993 ? Whose gun point was that ? What happened in 1997 ? Whose gun was out there ?

Come on yaar , come out of your hatred.

On feudal seats ,there are a lot of them in sindh & southern punjab. Just to give example.

a) Mahrs of Ghotki ( Ali Muhmammad Khan Mahr
b) Mahrs of Shikarpur ( Ghoux Bux Mahr)
c) Bijaranis of Shikarpur (Mir Hazar Khan Bijarni)
d) Pagaros of Sanghar
e) Arbabs of Thar
f) Shirazis of Thatta
g) Jatois of NosheroFeroz
h) Jatois of Dadu

These people win from whatever party they participate and even win independent . They might have occassionaly lost one elections like in 1988 Jatois and Pagars lost to PPP but that was it.

i totally agree to your following point.
"
Democracy leads to long term stability and social cohesion. This is true for everywhere in the world.
"

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 10:38 #
stingingnettle
Member

Sipahi; A perfect thread, if I may say so.

The first thing we need to understand before your question can be answered is about the what makes democracy work in letter and spirit.

Democracy, like any other political or social system works after certain fundamental assumptions have been taken to be true. These assumption are more important in democracy than in any other system. So here are the assumptions;

People want democracy

People have some level of literacy

People are politically aware

People are generally not destitute and indeed of emergency interventions

People have the general mindset that the personal will of the majority is not imposed on minorities in matters of communal or personal life.

Democracy assumes that justice is the right of everyone and everyone is responsible for their actions ie there is no VIPism.

Please feel free to add any more if you think they are valid.

In a functioning democracy, prosperity is not automatic but easier. Democracy only provides conditions for prosperity, but democracy is totally dependent on the intentions of the people who want to live in this system.

Pakistan has at best a democracy born out-of-wedlock but sadly it is the only one we have at the moment. It's not perfect because of NRO, false voter lists and because it was born under the auspices of a dictator. This does not mean we are doomed but it does mean we need to take the flies out of the milk.

Pakistan's failed democratic 'experiments' in the past are a result of critical leadership failures which does not mean a failure of democracy.

If you don't clean and oil your machine gun, it isn't going fire when your need it most.

I hope this makes sense. So yes, prosperity and democracy co-relate positively.

Last but not the least, well done for starting a quality thread.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 11:37 #
shafiq12
member

stingingnettle

The worst form of government, Dictatorship, arises from democracy itself.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 11:43 #
stingingnettle
Member

Oblivion;

Yes. I see your point. In Pakistan most definitely. Who would want to sit in a punctured, broken down bus for years to get to their destination; for that you need shiny new working vehicle called proper democracy. The problem is not with democracy but it is with the charlatans you have put in the driving seat. Look after you new bus when you get it.

When was the last time USA, France or UK have a dictatorship replace a democracy in the last few hundred years?

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 11:56 #
ali-pk
Member

i don't think so.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 13:36 #
barackosama
Member

There have been nations ruled by other systems prior to modern day democracy and they had been prosperous e.g. the Egyptians and the Romans. China and Arabian Gulf are prosperous without real democracy. Khilafat Rashida were prosperous times. The world's biggest democracy, India, by no means is prosperous.

Prosperity tied to only democratic form of government is rather absurd.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 13:41 #
hypocrite
Member

Ghost protocol and Adonis sahiban

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.

By the way

a) What is democracy and
b) What we have in Pakistan is true democracy or just a namesake of democracy?

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 15:38 #
azizi
Member

Ten most prosprous countries. Per capita income by IMF/WB

141,100 Liechtenstein
88,222 Qatar
81,466 Luxembourg
56,694 Singapore
51,959 Norway
48,900 Kuwait
48,333 Brunei
47,439 United Arab Emirates
46,860 United States
45,944 Hong Kong

Only two out of these ten can claim democratic governments.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 15:54 #
hypocrite
Member

Azizi sahib

Great info. Thanks for sharing. I think 6 of the 10 countries above have some form of democracy. ( Luxembourg, Singapore, Norway, USA, Switzerland and Netherlands)

a) So along with my question as to what is democracy, may I also ask a question as to what is prosperity?

b) Is there a balance between prosperity and free access to all basic human rights?

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 16:02 #
stingingnettle
Member

Azizi;

"Only two out of these ten can claim democratic governments."

You are wrong about this completely;

USA, Norway and USA are full democracies

Liechtenstein is a constitutional monarchy but it has multi-party democracy where the PM is the head of state.

Luxembourg a parliamentary representative democratic monarchy and the Prime Minister of Luxembourg is the head of government. There is a multi-party system with elections etc.

Singapore is a parliamentary multi-party democracy

Hong Kong is China’s special administrative region which has some kind of managed democracy in which people vote for in the legislative council elections. It’s not really proper democracy as it stands but Hong Kong was a rich well before it joined China and then it had proper and full democracy.

So this leaves us with the muslim countries on the list; Can you see what is common about them apart from the absence of democracy?

Their wealth is dependent on oil and their power is dependent on autocratic and nepotistic control of the people. Their high per capital income does not mean the that their wealth is evenly distributed. UAE, Qatar and Kuwait were built on the blood and sweat of the slave labour imported from the sub-continent. Unlike western democracy, there is no provision for these slave labourers to ever acquire the citizenship of these countries and partake in the good times. You will also notice that these muslim countries in the list do have a thriving industrial based and have yet to produce a single Nobel Prize winnner. They make a very very poor case for promoting the kind of Government they are. You will also notice that the three gulf countries are totally dependent on USA and UK for their protection, for the extraction of their oil and for the sale of it. Dare I say more, is that what you want?

I will stop now.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 17:39 #
sweettruth
Member

The simple answer of this thread is YES.

Posted 4 months ago on 30 Dec 2011 17:41 #
sipahi
Member

People say Western Europe is model for democracy. But, over last couple of years at least 4 countries in Western Europe, i.e. Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy are not prospering. Iceland went through bankrupt couple of years ago.

That shows western democracy is not panacea.

There must be something else that is needed for prosperity.
What do you think it is?

Posted 4 months ago on 31 Dec 2011 0:37 #
Hussain Farooqui
Member

Adonis

I appreciate your patriotism, but realities are too undeniable.

Literacy: During the regime of Bhutto when a military operation was launched, the sardars told the people that the British had attacked the country. The people believed and fought with bravery against their own army. Majority of our people are direction-less because of illiteracy.

We have find a way out for our survival as a respected nation.

Feudal System: If you visit the provincial assemblies at the time of their sessions, you will find mostly zamindars and criminal people entering the assembly buildings.

Lawlessness: Many polling stations during the vote casting become battle fields in the rural areas. A lot of people get killed.

Dear Brother, please accept these realities. Our society is unfortunately too backward.

Posted 4 months ago on 31 Dec 2011 6:30 #
stingingnettle
Member

Siphai;

" ...But, over last couple of years at least 4 countries in Western Europe, i.e. Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy are not prospering."

That has something to do with banking and it is a highly complex chain of events and has little to do with democracy. No body is dying of hunger and destitution in any of the countries you mention. Be careful with the use of word 'prosper.'

"There must be something else that is needed for prosperity.
What do you think it is?"

You seem you disrespect us by your loaded and patronising question.

So could you save your simplicity and your simplistic solutions and vague promises of paradise gained for another day?

Posted 4 months ago on 31 Dec 2011 10:12 #
Hussain Farooqui
Member

In my opinion, we need a benevolent dictatorial rule similar to that of China.

Posted 4 months ago on 31 Dec 2011 10:15 #
stingingnettle
Member

Here are two fantasies about China;

China is ruled by benevolent dictators.

There is no corruption in China and money cannot buy you favours.

Posted 4 months ago on 31 Dec 2011 10:38 #
Ghost Protocol
Member

@Hypocrite, you have a relevant question:
a) So along with my question as to what is democracy, may I also ask a question as to what is prosperity?
In my opinion, prosperity is state of mind, where you feel you have access to all or most of the facilities that "you" need or aspire. End of the day one should feel satisfied, happy assured and secured.
If you take my above definition seriously, then you can achieve prosperity in any form of government. Are people at west happy, satisfied,assured and secured?

Posted 4 months ago on 31 Dec 2011 10:41 #
Ghost Protocol
Member

Democracy in its true sense and meaning can be the best system of governance where collective wisdom of people take decision for common good.
Presently, albeit we witness democracy in western world where people vote freely to candidates and parties that they believe are the best however people's perception can be influenced and altered by art of propaganda. Media's role become central in mind control game. The major media organisations are controlled by few individual who promote their puppets as candidate using their media power. The result, although people feel they are free but their freedom is limited to choices that are presented to them.
Result, 1% of elite control 99% of wealth and resources and citizen of western democratic nations are truly feeling insecure about their economic future.

Posted 4 months ago on 31 Dec 2011 10:51 #
sipahi
Member

@ Ghost Protocol

Thanks for your sharing your thoughts. I agree with you that real prosperity is much more than just economic well-being. In my opinion, present day western democracy does not provide prosperity for people who need help the most. This is because, present day western democracy revolves around getting elected next time. The elected leaders are afraid to take principled stands and they rather focus on pleasing middle 51% of the population.

@stingingnettle

It seems, whenever you have problem in making a coherent response, you become personal. I propose that from now on, I will not respond to your post and you do the same. Thanks.

Posted 4 months ago on 31 Dec 2011 14:24 #
stingingnettle
Member

Sipahi:

You just want to live in your self-affirmatory and self-referential world and it is obvious you cannot handle any challenge to your fervour-coated beliefs (dogmas of social function) so you choose the easy way out. You are too upset because someone can see though you shallow agenda eh.

If you do not want to part of a discussion forum, I suggest you stand in front of a mirror and talk to yourself. Stop writing in public forums if you can't handle to responses.

BTW; which bit is incoherent or personal to your filtered ears?

Posted 4 months ago on 31 Dec 2011 14:36 #