PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

End of 500 years of Western predominance

(16 posts)
  1. jabalultariq
    Member

    A recent book by Niall Ferguson (author of the popular book "Ascent of Money") admits West is on its way towards a decline.

    Here are some excerpts, courtesy my editing of NY Times book review of "CIVILIZATION : The West and the Rest" By Niall Ferguson

    "The West is on the defensive, challenged economically by the ascent of China and politically and militarily by a wave of Islamist hatred. Perhaps as great a challenge is internal.

    Ferguson pays due respect to the intellectual and scientific contributions of China and Islam, but makes it clear that modern science and technology are fundamentally Western products. He asks if any non-Western state can simply acquire scientific knowledge without accepting other key Western institutions like “private property rights, the rule of law and truly representative government.”

    He addresses the interesting and difficult question: “Just why, beginning around 1500, did a few small polities on the western end of the Eurasian landmass come to dominate the rest of the world?”

    Ferguson offers six chapters of what he calls “killer apps,” each addressing a major element in his answer to the question of Western domination: 1) competition, both among and within the European states; 2) science, beginning with the scientific revolution of the 16th and 17th centuries; 3) the rule of law and representative government, based on the rights of private property and representation in elected legislatures; 4) modern medicine; 5) the consumer society that resulted from the Industrial Revolution; and 6) the work ethic. These, he argues, were crucial to the growth of the West’s power, but weak or nonexistent in other societies

    He says, we are experiencing “the end of 500 years of Western predominance,” and he foresees the possibility of a clash between the declining and rising forces.

    He wonders “whether the weaker will tip over from weakness to outright collapse.”

    What’s worse, Ferguson sees the current financial crisis as “an accelerator of an already well-established trend of relative Western decline.”

    He worries that there may come a moment when a “seemingly random piece of bad news — perhaps a negative report by a rating agency” panics investors, who lose confidence in the credit of the United States.

    This could cause disaster, “for a complex adaptive system is in big trouble when a critical mass of its constituents loses faith in its viability.”

    According to him , The greatest dangers facing West are probably not “the rise of China, Islam or CO2 emissions,” he writes, but “our own loss of faith in the civilization we inherited from our ancestors.”

    What does this mean for Pakistan and other Muslim nations ?

    Perhaps just like WWII , when British lost its interest & grip over its empire , similarly West, especially US will focus more on fixing its internal problems and leave us alone. That’s my wishful thinking

    Posted 5 months ago on 09 Dec 2011 21:50 #
  2. bsobaid
    Member

    West, probably for the first time in past 2000 years made science and technology work for the betterment of human life. Yes, you can argue the Scince and tech. are also used to make bombs but throughout history it has happened, infact the primary use of Sci & Tech. was for defence purposes in addition to construction and arch.

    I'd argue if Islam has ever been a global economic or civilization force and it probably wont ever be. It can be a moral or an ideological force, but cant be an economic force or even a civlization for the betterment at a global level.

    Throughout history, South Asia and China have been the main forces and they continue to be with a brief lull of 500 years. Reason? South Asia and China produced half of world's GDP because they are half of the world's population with very little motivation to expand their boundaries.

    Posted 5 months ago on 09 Dec 2011 22:14 #
  3. SufiSoul
    Member

    when an un-visible natural red line is feared to cross those forces are STOPPED and if they insists than destructed.
    Actually ultimate authority is never surrendered to any force and a SHIFT towards new BABY force is made.
    So this game is on and on.

    Posted 5 months ago on 09 Dec 2011 23:44 #
  4. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    (1) With the current coming demise of the west, parallel may be the demise of the idea of "fraud as a way of life"

    Human beings all across the globe may find out the fact that fraud is not a "sustainable" "way of life", that its not a "worth-while" "way of life".

    It may serve to open eyes of ALL human beings living across the globe, especially those who have "cold heart".

    Posted 5 months ago on 10 Dec 2011 6:05 #
  5. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    (2) Human beings living in the west are increasingly finding out the fact that;

    (a) they "never" had "representative government"

    They have been living under "unjust Jew loan sharks (Bankers) (loan sharks of last resort)", for the entire last century, especially since the;

    (i) US Federal Reserve
    (ii) Bank of International Settlements
    (iii) Bank of England
    (iv) Bank of Germany
    (v) IMF
    (vi) World Bank
    (vii) etc etc

    came into being.

    This era has been the worst era in all of history of human beings, even worse than the time of Kings and Queens. In this era, the loan sharks of last resort (bankers) were the people who owned and created illusions of Kings and Queens.

    (b) all the prosperity they saw in the past century hasn't been paid for

    When they are made to pay this debt, it may serve to open their eyes, as well as the eyes of ALL of mankind, about "who" and "what" they are dealing with.

    Posted 5 months ago on 10 Dec 2011 6:14 #
  6. Sulaiman Dar
    Member

    It would be wrong to assume that west had the dominance for the last 500 years. If you go 500 years back into the history still the muslim empires like Ottomons, Persians and Mughals were the dominating force although on a declining path.

    Western dominance started with the clonialization era of post 1700 period that gives them roughly 300 years of dominance over the global affairs.

    Posted 5 months ago on 10 Dec 2011 7:33 #
  7. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    500 years is an exaggerated period of time. The have been able to maintain their dominance about 300 years. Now the time of their downfall has started.

    Posted 5 months ago on 10 Dec 2011 10:21 #
  8. stingingnettle
    Member

    I hope we are not assuming the automatic ascendency of Islamic countries as the consequence of the so called decline of the West. This will be a worse delusion than the one suggested in the title.

    The highly flawed proposition that nations can only rise only when others decline is for those who like diving into the shallow end of the pool.

    Posted 5 months ago on 10 Dec 2011 12:32 #
  9. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    It is not automatic assumption but a sure shot inevitable ascendancy of Islam. You need to be a firm Believer without iota of doubt in order to comprehend such a scenario.

    None of the civilizations of yester years from Chinese to Egyptians to Romans to Babylonians to Maya have a chance of a comeback to their former glory but Islam happens to be vibrant force that has full capability to make a spectauclar come back. There are millions of adherants on 6 continents and beyond that are striving hard towards that goal and breeze is certainly shifting in that direction. Whether it springs up out of a decline of others is immaterial. Islam has intrinsic capability to take the lead at the right time and that time is clear as daylight in front of us. You can take a ostrich in the sand attitude but it will not derail the resurgence of Islam on the world scene.

    Posted 5 months ago on 10 Dec 2011 14:01 #
  10. rollcall
    Member

    @bsobaid
    I'd argue if Islam has ever been a global economic or civilization force and it probably wont ever be.

    ------------------------------

    Islamic Golden Age (c. 750 CE - c. 1258 CE)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

    Posted 5 months ago on 10 Dec 2011 15:44 #
  11. jabalultariq
    Member

    According to Professor Marshall Hodgson , indeed there was an Islamic Civilization and there were common themes visible all along, from 660 all the way to end of Ottomons in 20th century. Altogether almost 1400 years , of which 300-400 were considered "golden years" of the Islamic Civilization. Infact Islamic civilization "came closer than any (civilization) had ever come to uniting all mankind under its ideals".

    Posted 5 months ago on 11 Dec 2011 5:58 #
  12. stingingnettle
    Member

    Abdul Rehman;

    " You need to be a firm Believer without iota of doubt in order to comprehend such a scenario."

    You seem to reason from within the circle only and hence the futility of your argument. If your arguments are only for the converted, then what is the point of stating them?

    You speak with dogmatic belief and I don't doubt the honesty of your belief, but my reference was not for the ascendency of Islam but of 'Islamic countries' and they are two very different things.

    The sectarianism that plagues muslims is proof enough that you are selling an empty dream, a vague and futile promise which has no foundation at all.

    The empty promises you make is the real rot that has set deep within the psyche of muslims. You have lost your ability to indulge in objective religio-cultural introspection.

    Posted 5 months ago on 11 Dec 2011 18:49 #
  13. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    my reference was not for the ascendency of Islam but of 'Islamic countries' and they are two very different things.

    Nettle, Not at all. They are one entity and interwoven and monolothic and cannnot be separated. That is the dilemma that Islamic countries under clutches of secular despots aping the alien secular model were facing since "idependance". But that is no longer true as you can see from the events unfolding in front of our eyes.

    Posted 5 months ago on 11 Dec 2011 20:28 #
  14. stingingnettle
    Member

    Abdul Rehman

    Monolithic and unilateral thinking is the real dilemma we face today. A secular model is not an anti-religion model, it is simply a model that allows plurality and multilateralism. Aping theocracy is more fatal than apeing the so called 'secular model'. Lets not confuse despotism with secularism. I have little or no time for any despotism, whether it is secular or theocratic. The Saudi King is a despot as is the highly holy Moroccan king, they seem pretty religious to me. They hardly paint pretty pictures. So lets not think that despotism is the sole domain of secularism.

    Religion is for believers but a country is for all.

    Posted 5 months ago on 11 Dec 2011 23:59 #
  15. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    "The Saudi King is a despot as is the highly holy Moroccan King"

    They are much more than a despot. Saudi King uses Shariah to stifle any opposition whereas Moroccon King claims to be 40th descendent of Prophet PBUH to keep the masses under check. Both are secular to the core but wearing religious cloak to fool the masses. But this will eventually change as "religious" and secular despots tumble one by one.

    "Aping theocracy"

    which one? If you are referring to the orthodox Khalifa version, then not only we neeed to ape but to apply ASAP. The other theocracy models are certainly fatal.

    Posted 5 months ago on 12 Dec 2011 0:52 #
  16. jabalultariq
    Member

    @Nettle "The sectarianism that plagues muslims is proof enough that you are selling an empty dream, a vague and futile promise which has no foundation at all"

    Islamic History is replete with such sectarianism and infighting, there came many reformers who turned around extremely degenerated societies , Yusuf ibn Tashfeen is one of the examples.....

    Posted 5 months ago on 12 Dec 2011 2:17 #

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