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Engineering of a Doctrine in quest for power to Rule

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    Engineering of a Doctrine in quest for Power to Rule

    By A Khokar November 29, 2010

    History tells us that Blasphemy law was introduced in late 1927 in the subcontinent during British Raj to thwart the communal riot and offences relating to religion between Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists and the new emerging creed of Christians. Accordingly Section 295 was introduced in Indian penal Code as part of Indian Act XLV of 1860. After the independence from British Raj and partition of subcontinent in 1947 Pakistan inherited the same Penal code and renamed it as Pakistan penal Code.

    Original Section 295 forbids damaging or defiling a place of worship or a sacred object, which remained effective to thwart any communal riots during British Raj. After the creation of Pakistan this land with about 98% of Muslims mostly illiterate and conservative, the law kept on sitting idle till the time that political adventurist, Mr. Z A Bhutto with his ambitions to introduce socialist economic reforms wanted to devise the ways to mobilize the Religious conservative forces in the country to bring them in his fold.

    After the debacle of Fall of Dacca in 1971, Pakistan was just coming out of its disastrous ordeal of seceding of its eastern wing of East Pakistan. The nation was utterly dismayed and in decent. There was a dire need that a recipe of unity for the nation be found. They say that all the new doctrines they take birth during the disastrous periods of nations. ZA Bhutto saw the opportunity to introduce some new doctrine which may incite theocratic and religious forces.

    ‘Give a dog a bad name and hang him’ is a most common feature of ‘sticking power of labeling’ in the ‘New Age doctrines’ and Mr. ZA Bhutto a shrewd ambitious man selected the most docile and humble creed of Ahmadies Muslims (Qadiyanis) in Pakistan to make them a scapegoat and new doctrine of impersonalizing the Ahmadiyya sect by labeling them as infidels was introduced.

    Of course anti –Ahmadiyya sentiments were already found in certain religious circles as a latent current against Ahmadies for their particular belief of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (as) who claimed to be the Promised Messiah and a Nabi. Mr. Bhutto found it a golden opportunity to put Ahmadies against the common belief of mainstream Muslims that there is no prophet after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) believed to be the last of all the prophets. Rightly or wrongly, he exploited this version to get them declared a Heretic group in Islam. The religious parties foreseeing no future otherwise to be in power also saw it as a fair shake under the banner of Mr. Z A Bhutto and joined hand with Bhutto to let this bill pass in the national assembly. Thus a Constitutional amendment called a Second Amendment Act of 1974 was made and Ahmadies (Qadiyanis) were declared— non –Muslim and thrown out of pale of Islam.

    This move of Bhutto went well in the religious conservative masses in the country in his favour and he saw himself the most popular Muslim leader, at least in Asia. Now in public he was known as Qaid e Awam. He started dreaming even to lead the entire Muslim world and in 1980 called upon all the Muslim leaders and held a Muslims Summit Conference of Islamic world in Lahore.

    But soon his dreaming of a dream to live in a world of dreams was shattered that although now Pakistan was being recognized as the Fortress of Islam but another adventurist, his Armed Forces Chief of staff General Zia ul Haq came in his way and in a bloodless coup took over the rein of government from him. He declared a martial law in the country and a long dark age of dictatorial regime started. General Zia ul Haq to clear his own way eventually sent Mr ZA Bhutto down the gallows. He too used the recipe of making Ahmadies a scapegoat to further his ruthless regime. He passed several more Anti Ahmadiyya legislations and introduced various ordinances to subject them to his inhuman arbitrary laws and made it sure that Ahmadies being the blasphemous were reduced to the status of a third class citizen.

    During the days of Military Dictatorship of Gen. Zia-ul-Haq, numbers of sections in the blasphemy laws were added in Pakistan Penal Code. In 1982, defiling or desecrating of Holy Quran was declared as offence with punishment of imprisonment of life (25 years) via section 295 B. In 1986, through 295 C the blasphemy of Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was declared offence with death penalty or imprisonment of life. These two sections are cognizable, non compoundable and non bailable. Furthermore, earlier in 1980, the blasphemous remarks or acts towards companion (SAHABA), family members of Holy Prophet (PBUH) was declared as an offence punishable with three years of sentence, in section 298-A. Whereas, in 1984, certain Muslim like activities and practices of Qadiyani group were declared unlawful via section 298 B and 298 C both with three years sentence.

    During his tenure the religious fervency and extremism under the pretext of defending the prophet hood (Tahafaz e khatum e nabowat) of Prophet Muhammad (saw) was so escalated that life of Ahmadies in Pakistan was turned to misery. People felt free to take the law in their own hand and kill or torture Ahmadies. Destroying their businesses, properties and desecration of Ahmadies book libraries and Mosques became the common features. On the behest of Zia’s regime the fiery clerics were sponsored to deliver special sermons and to air the anti- Ahmadiyya rhetoric to dehumanize them. Hundred of the Ahmadies fled the country to escape the persecution.

    Having achieved a desired swell in Islamic extremism in the country; a new force was seen being raised and trained as the Mujahedeen forces in Pakistan to fight a ‘Islamic Jihad’. The think tanks and policy makers of USA could gauge this development and potential of Mujahedeen and offered Pakistan on a price to push them as fodder into a long Afghan war on behalf of USA to dislodge Soviet Union.

    Mujahedeen Jihadists were excessively funded and adequately equipped with US weapons to fight the Soviet Union forces in occupation of Afghanistan. The Mujahedeen Jihadist proved to be very ferocious fighters that within few years of time, Soviet Union a super power was forced to pack up from Afghanistan depleted and eventually it disintegrated. Pakistan was heftily rewarded for that. US now was the only Super power in the world. Invariably Pakistan as a blue eyed, now was in the hands of American. It has proved to be the most loyal mercenary who could fight any war for monies as a proxy.

    Zia’s striking successes in Afghanistan also rekindled the old fire of Pan-Islamism and for the unification of Islam. He started considering himself Ameerul Momineen in Islamic world but—- not withstanding that he was simply working as a US proxy in Afghan war and not knowing that when the US proxies have passed their sell by dates; history tells us that Gallows always awaits them at the end. As expected, reportedly a covert operation came in play and General Zia was killed in a bomb blast while in the sky travelling in a military aero plane.

    In Pakistan the Islamists were finding that use of Doctrine of blasphemy law had brought lot many successes in the country; from mobilizing the conservative Muslim masses and successfully running the dictatorial regime of Ziaul Haq and to the raising of the Mujahedeen forces to fight wars in the name of Islamic Jihad and mint monies. This was seen a great achievements to be carried forward. So all this —– didn’t end with the demise of General Zia Ul Haq.

    In 1991 Mr. Nawaz sharif, the second successor prime minister after Zia ul haq, (brought into world of politics by Ziaul Haq); in order to keep the fervent religious parties in his pocket and also prove that he was a notch above his predecessor General Zia ul Haq; once again stirred the Ahmadiyya blasphemy issue and in order to show that he could take the most stringent step; he while upholding the punishment of death penalty in the blasphemy law, moved the bill for removal of ‘or imprisonment of life’ from Section 295-C of the Pakistan Penal Code.

    Later it was only during the early days of Benazir Bhutto’s second government that this amendment bill was finally adopted. Again the government was in a hurry to push the bill because the house was about to be prorogued.

    Leaving the state of Ahmadies and their sufferings in Pakistan aside; this law especially in the hands of sectarian war lord is the most bloody weapon that is ever wielded. … One may see that this weapon given in every man’s hand that they may let loose upon even his neighbour that he might not like and then—- blood and distress, turmoil, sorrow, misery, war, and destruction may sweep the face of the land around us.

    But this weapon, these war lords may not like to abandon it so easily and any repealing effort may not go well. But one thing can certainly be done to take the sting out:–

    We may not be able to repeal Blasphemy Law…. but we may certainly ‘Amend it… to Extend it’—to all the other religions that people lead…especially the Pakistan penal code sections 295B and 295C.
    ****
    Link ref: http://www.adab-arz.co.uk/?p=2462

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Nov 2010 0:24 #
  2. AK, the law is iniquitous, no two ways about it. And should be repealed as soon as someone with some sense takes over Pakistan. And that will happen, too, never fear.

    I want to point to something totally different, though. The glib words: "Ahmadi sufferings". How come? As far as I know, the Ahmadi community in Pakistan is among the more prosperous ones. Ahmadies are found in every walk of life, in the military, in our diplomatic service and among our ambassadors, in the bureaucracy, in politics. We've even had a Ahamadi or semi-Ahmadi president. So be honest for once and salute in passing what has always amazed me about our unique country. It's incredible corruption, its stupid rhetoric going hand-in-hand with exemplary tolerance.

    Overstating one's case is a sign neither of intelligence nor of intellectual honesty.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Nov 2010 7:50 #
  3. Dear Mirza Ghalib,

    In presence of such Ahmadiyya specific draconian and discriminatory laws as under; you still insist that to call them pathetic and one who are suffering from are somehow --- ‘Overstating one's case( which ) is a sign neither of intelligence nor of intellectual honesty.’

    This is totally an overstatement and I think I must object to it.

    Other than PPC295b and 295C following is the description of Ahmadiyya specific laws:

    PPC.298A Use of derogatory remarks etc., in respect of holy personages------Three years' imprisonment, or with fine, or with both

    PPC.298B Misuse of epithets, descriptions and titles etc., reserved for certain holy personages or places, by Ahmadies--------Three years' imprisonment and fine

    PPC.298C An Ahmadi, calling himself a Muslim, or preaching or propagating his faith, or outraging the religious feelings of Muslims, or posing himself as a Muslim-------Three years' imprisonment and fine

    I thought we only seek the truth and wisdom here.
    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Nov 2010 11:59 #
  4. AK, You do not address the point I tried to make. You just carried on repeating whatever was on your mind at the moment. This is not dialogue. This is monologue. Gets no one anyway. It's quite common on this blog and I usually let it pass, thinking: well, if this is how it is to be, so be it. From you I expected something better.

    I'm not going to repeat my views on that stupid law. I've done so time and time again. I just want to remind you that once you posted the whole text specially for my perusal several months back and, if nothing else, I do have a retentive memory.

    AK, reflect again on the meaning of the words: truth and wisdom, please. They are not the equivalents of self-pity, sentimentality and repetition. They mean integrity and a fighting spirit which looks at all sides of any given question.

    Posted 1 year ago on 29 Nov 2010 17:37 #
  5. shafiq12
    member

    Aay Khokhar

    If u honestly want to look at the history, Than u should also looked the history proved it repeadily that Mirza Ghulam, The promised Missiah of Qadianis is also Liar, So why u want a state for urself, If Mirza Ghulam was true than why he left his people with no state, If he was a greatman why he didn't established a state for his people,

    Why he bow his head befores the will of Britsher, Why he just put theories where is his practical, My friend Practical need sacrify and Mirza Ghulam don't want sacrify himself for his people.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 10:08 #
  6. SS,
    I think I have put up this post with a view to study and visualize the fact that how a Doctrine was concocted; where by a sect carrying a particular belief was labelled as the Heretic in Islam with the aim to mobilize the a nation which was on the way to its descent and disintegration after the debacle of 1971 when Pakistan had lost its one eastern wing.

    And how Mr. ZA Bhutto used it to avert the nation's humiliation in the world and be known as the Qaud e Awaam and how later on his successors Zial Ul haq, Nawaz sharif and now the Religious extremists hijacked his doctrine and have used the same pretext as a weapon to further their agenda and be called as the Ameerul Momineen or to win a Khalafa state.

    What does the belief of Ahmadiyya says and whether or not, other people believe in them is not the subject matter.

    Discuss the subject matter if you can; and please withhold you brush of love that you carry for Ahmadies to oblitrate the issue for the time being; if you could.

    Many thanks

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 12:02 #
  7. OK, AK, let's come back to this one with a question. Quite honestly: have you ever known of any Ahmadi believer who might have been struck down with the death penalty?

    From what I've been able to gather, not a single person in the net of the blasphemy question has ever undergone the death penalty so far. Though they have spent time in jail.

    In case your answer is a "no" to my question, then it shows that the law though still in existence is bypassed in some way or the other because no one feels comfortable with it.
    Reminds me of the time when there was a witch law in Europe (penalty, death by burning). Towards the end of its days and over a time period of almost a century, not one judge handed down a sentence of witchcraft on any so-called "culprit" hauled up before them. At the end of the century, the law had withered away and removing it from the statute book no longer even needed discussion.

    Mark my words, the same thing will happen to the iniquitous laws this thread is dealing with. And over a shorter period of time.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 12:58 #
  8. @Aay
    Ah, same old cr@p of "Ahmedi suffering" disguised as a discussion of "Blasphemy law" disguised under the 'fancy' title "Engineering of a Doctrine in quest for power to Rule".

    Man, you should learn by now no one is buying your b.s. not matter how much you try and disguise it.
    :)

    Isn't this the fifth time you are beating around this bush?

    1. Engineering of a Doctrine in quest for power to Rule
      Started: 1 day ago
    2. The Law Says Aisia Bibi is Blasphemous
      Started: 1 week ago
    3. Islam and Music
      Started: 2 weeks ago
    4. Punishing of the Blasphemous
      Started: 1 week ago
    5. ISLAMIC WELFARE STATE AND PUNISHMENTS AS PER ISLAMIC LAW
      Started: 1 week ago
    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 13:24 #
  9. All,

    In the light of Nota's point (above), should this topic and the author be put into a "spam/ spammer" category. Or just move it to Faith and Religion?

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 13:49 #
  10. shirazi
    Member

    @Admin Discuss

    Blasphemy law like wikileaks seems to be a current issue. There are multiple threads both on wikileaks and blasphemy laws.

    Besides both nota and Aay Khokhar have long history. Their posts against each other are quite intense, to say the least.

    I won't categorize it as spam but it can go under Faith and Religion. At the same time who can argue it's not the current issue.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 14:00 #
  11. I'd leave it where it is. This is less about Ahmadi beliefs as it is about legislation and how we as a nation have dealt with it.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 14:18 #
  12. shimatoree
    Member

    I would second Mirza Ghalib that this one should be left here as is for a simple reason.

    Regardless of our desires- the fact is that there are certain threads which generate a lot of interest and others which do not. The ones that do not generate interest- sort of die a natural death by neglect or inattention.

    The main problem the moderators have to deal with is the person who is source of these threads.

    Questions need to be asked for clarification as to the purpose behind repeating.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 14:46 #
  13. shimatoree
    Member

    What is ADAB ARZ ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 14:53 #
  14. shirazi
    Member

    @shimatoree

    ADAB ARZ is like saying 'Hi' in sophisticated urdu.

    :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 15:04 #
  15. toamin
    member

    an ahmadi can claim asylum just because of their religion :)

    but i agree, this colonial penal code must be totally dismantled, uprooted and replaced with Qur'an/Sunnah :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 16:13 #
  16. @Salam
    "an ahmadi can claim asylum just because of their religion :)"
    Does that mean a Muslim can claim asylum just because of their religion?

    No?

    Hmmm....very interesting! Does that mean the asylum-granting countries consider Ahmedis -- dare I say it -- "Non-Muslims"? And no cries from Aay about "Ahmedi pesecution", "penal code"??

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 16:30 #
  17. @shimatoree
    Questions need to be asked for clarification as to the purpose behind repeating.

    I think the purpose is clear. Aay is just a one-trick pony, only interested in crying the same 'persecution' song song like the Zionists. I just don't see why this could not have become part of one of the other discussions on the matter (4 by him and ~5 plus other 'blasphemy' threads...

    @MG
    I'd leave it where it is. This is less about Ahmadi beliefs as it is about legislation and how we as a nation have dealt with it.
    Believe me it is NOT but go for it ;-)

    I guess I'll have to wait for him explain his "Love for all and hatred for none" bit :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 16:44 #
  18. shimatoree
    Member

    nota-

    So far I have refrained from syaing anything about this Ahmadi/Qadiani topic but here goes-

    The great desire for legitimacy and acceptance is present in all of us. This is true of individuals as well as larger groups of people.
    But if you agree for majority rule- then you sink or swim by it.
    First to declare that YOU are different( meaning Better),

    then you declare that everyone else is somehow less-

    then want acceptance and legitimacy is unrealistic to say the least.

    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad probably expected his " new" theory to

    spread like wild fire.

    It did not.

    It cannot for reasons that are obvious to any objective non-partisan observer.

    ZAB did not declare Ahmadis non Muslim- it was the demand of the Muslim people that forced him to do so.

    The Saudis and Egyptians too played a big role in that. If you have any doubts about that- let someone tell them that they are an Ahamadi and see what happens.
    The Ahmadis go to Haj by HIDDING the fact that they are Ahmadis otherwise they will not be allowed to enter Saudi Arabia.

    I have a very simple solution for this problem.

    Let all Ahmadis denounce Ghulam Ahmad and declare that they wish to be " normal" Muslims.

    Posted 1 year ago on 30 Nov 2010 17:12 #
  19. Dear Admin Discuss and Friends,

    This post was put up primarily to bring to the surface, the hidden moves of the previous leadership that Pakistani nation experienced. That how after a disaster of breakup of Pakistan in 1971; a doctrine of disaster was evolved by an ambitious man who was socialist in his belief?

    He set his sight to become the maestro of Muslim world in Asia. But to win over the masses how he exploited the religion and picked up a clan and labelled them a bad dog and how he swept his control across the country. And how his doctrine was hijacked by General Zialul haq and later by Nawaz sharif to become--- Ameerul monineens?

    The Main theme of this post is the ‘Engineering of a Doctrine’ by Z A Bhutto, where as Ahmadiyya issue in the post is just mentioned in passing only that they happened to be made a scapegoat I execution of doctrine.

    Our emphasis should remain on the main theme of topic.

    But right in the beginning when Mirza Ghalib termed this effort as dishonesty and in his taunting words also said: ‘Overstating one's case is a sign neither of intelligence nor of intellectual honesty.’

    Even you may be moderator; I don’t think; you enjoy a morale authority by any standard to address someone in such harsh language and I objected to it.

    Likewise ‘Super Soldier’ tried to twist and turn it to an Ahmadiyya issue and I categorically asked the gentleman to please withhold his brush and try not to turn a different issue into anti-Ahmadiyya strife or contest.

    `Any how i apologise that earlier I could not attend in time to certain comments made by friends: I was away from my desk during the day.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 1:36 #
  20. Shimatoree

    Your post of 30 Nov 2010 17:12 refers.

    You have your right to opinion as do have other.

    But I think it would be a worst type of discrimination as--- to name a man--- a Dog and then expect him that---- he must howl also.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 2:00 #
  21. shirazi
    Member

    @AK

    ZAB was progressive, reformist and a great intellectual but what he did to Ahmadies is beyond any defense. I haven't met anyone who can defend his move to declare Ahmedis non-muslims. The bottom line is it was political expediency. As someone who was educated in amongst most elite schools of west he knew very well it was not state's business to define Muslim or non-Muslim. He just did that to broad acceptability using religion. In that sense he was not any different than Zia or Nawaz Sharif.

    If JI or Mullahs do that I am perfectly fine with that. But if left leaning liberals take the lead it's not acceptable. Religious leaders earn their living by challenging the credentials of others but politicians don't. BTW your above article seems fairly factual with one small exception. ZAB chaired Islamic Summit in Lahore in 1974 not 1980 :)

    As far as my personal opinion is concerned anyone who claims he is muslim is muslim to me. Tomorrow if our parliament declares Shias are non-muslims or Iranian sura announces sunnis are not muslims I won't follow their guidance.

    When we say there are 1.5B Muslims we include all those sects who differ on countless beliefs. Not just that we even include those east European and Central Asians who barely know Qalma or even a ABC of Islam. They do not know how many prayers Muslim offers but they still claim they are Muslims and we count them among Muslims when we proudly claim 1.5B Muslims, second biggest religion on planet.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 2:38 #
  22. shimatoree
    Member

    Shirazi-

    It is not accurate to place the blame on ZAB.

    ZAB was merely following the wishes of his constituents to obtain political benefit which is the normal way for all politicians and those that are wanabe politicians.

    The antipathy against the Ahmadis is and has been very real in Pakistan and amongst the Muslims of South Asia.
    You can call it discrimination or prejudice or anything else but it is there and has been there and is unlikely to change. That is the reality on the ground.

    It is unrealistic to challenge the fundamentals of a religion while claiming to be one of them and then expect that those that follow that religion will not feel offended.

    The people of Pakistan are very emotional people and when it comes to the Prophet(PBUH) being the last- well everyone has seen the results.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 3:20 #
  23. @Aay
    "But right in the beginning when Mirza Ghalib termed this effort as dishonesty and in his taunting words also said: ‘Overstating one's case is a sign neither of intelligence nor of intellectual honesty.

    Even you may be moderator; I don’t think; you enjoy a morale authority by any standard to address someone in such harsh language and I objected to it.’

    Mirza Ghalib DOES enjoy a certain "morale authority" by many a standards and getting Mirza Ghalib to question your intelligence and intellectual honesty (and say it out loud) speaks VOLUMES. You "doth protest too much, methinks."

    I of course am a hound at sniffing it out :)

    "@Shimatoree said 'You have your right to opinion as do have other.'
    But I think it would be a worst type of discrimination as--- to name a man--- a Dog and then expect him that---- he must howl also. "

    And thanks for proving us right once again that it IS about "Ahmadi sufferings" under the guise of "Engineering of a Doctrine" (And you talk of 'hidden moves'!)

    "after a disaster of breakup of Pakistan in 1971; a doctrine of disaster was evolved by an ambitious man who was socialist in his belief...he exploited the religion and picked up a clan and labelled them a bad dog"
    Oh great! Now you are trying to raise the 'socialist' booga-booga to dish ZAB ("ZAB was BAAADDDD 'cause see he was <shiver>, <shiver> -- a "SOCIALIST"!) Oh, that is sooo weeeeaaaak!!! And to suggest his labeling a "clan"(interesting choice) a "bad dog" in 1974 as part of the "doctrine of disaster" started in 1971 is suggesting Mullahs and later PNA were ZAB's puppets too. Now that is a wild one!!! (So I guess he planned his own hanging too as part of the "doctrine of disaster")

    BTW: Nice job avoiding the "an ahmadi can claim asylum" bit (And I am still awaiting your response to "Love for All, Hatred for none") ;-)

    Adab Arz!

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 3:36 #
  24. @shimatoree
    "It is unrealistic to challenge the fundamentals of a religion while claiming to be one of them."

    Hey I am a true Christian. Honest! So what if I truly believe Holy Trinity is bullcrap and Muhammed(PBUH) was the LAST prophet! :-P

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 3:47 #
  25. nota, you can't imagine how touched I am by your kind words. I'll cherish them for the rest of my days.

    AK, you really don't get it, do you? I wasn't trying to derail your thread. And if I put you off your stride, I do apologise. You stated your point of view in the opening piece. I tired to broaden the discussion to the dichotomy between the law and its actual application of it, but you were having none of it. The truth of the matter must lie somewhere in the region of the wavelength, ours being totally different, antithetical even, I suppose. More's the pity.

    I liked the way shirazi expanded the concerns here to include the European Muslims as a case in point to plead against discrimination in Pakistan. Shimatoree's idea was best of all, short and simple: Recognise our Prophet (PBUH) as the Last Prophet and the matter is settled straightaway. And from nota's eagle eye none shall escape. He hates cant of any kind, as we should all know by now.

    Once more AK and really my last effort: Endlessly repeating that ZAB did this and Zia that and Nawaz Sharif compounded your miseries will not prove helpful in the long run. Believe it or not, we have all been victims of Official Pakistan, not just you and your community. Be a Pakistani along with the rest of us. Don't just stand on the sidelines and curse us all for not seeing your point of view. As for the law against you, it will wither away, never fear.

    Meanwhile, you are one of us, a Pakistani. And Pakistan is a country of tolerance. If you remembered that more often, perhaps your wounds would start on the healing process as well.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 6:04 #
  26. shirazi
    Member

    @MG

    "Shimatoree's idea was best of all, short and simple: Recognise our Prophet (PBUH) as the Last Prophet and the matter is settled straightaway."

    My understanding is that's not disputed at all. Ahamedis also believe that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was last prophet. They additionally claim Mirza Ghulam Ahamed was re-birth of Jesus, as per Islamic beliefs. This makes him prophet but not the last prophet as he was re-birth of Jesus who came before Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

    I can be way off but this is what my understanding is, @AK can correct me. And if that is the case Christians should agitate more than Muslims?

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 6:23 #
  27. @shirazi
    Holy Moly Jesus!

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 6:50 #
  28. Thanks for correction, shirazi. And I believe you're quite right. So that paves the way to even a better understanding between the Ahmadis and their Muslim brethren. The antipathy one might feel for the Ahmedis was drummed into our heads. It's a conditioned response. We can overcome it over time.

    But now this Jesus element (Holy Moly Jesus as nota puts it) which I'd overlooked as far, perhaps AK could tell us how it affects the Ahmedi practice of Islam?

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 6:58 #
  29. As regards this Jesus claim, should I take Mirza's own statement?

    Mirza wrote in 'Izala-e-Auham': (P. 190, 1st edition; P. 79, 5th edition)

    "O Brethren of Deen and theologians of inviolable Law! Listen, you people to my submissions intently; that the claim of the promised similar, which this humble has made, has been taken as the promised Masih by witless folks.... I have not certainly made this claim that I am Masih, son of Mariam. The person putting this blame on me is a downright slanderer and a liar".

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 7:11 #
  30. Correction,

    This may please be corrected that 'Islamic Summit' was held in Lahore, February 22-24, 1974.

    Shirazi, thanks for your kind correction.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 7:51 #
  31. shafiq12
    member

    Aay Khokhar

    Let see what Quran says, when people reject the truth their Conscience tell them the truth. So now question arise why people reject the truth

    And they repudiated them wrongly and haughtily, in spite of their own certainty about them. See the final fate of the corrupters. (Surat an-Naml, 14)

    اور انہوں نے انکا ظلم اور تکبر سے انکار کرد یا حالانکہ ان کے دل یقین کر چکے تھے پھر دیکھ مفسدوں کا انجام کیسا ہوا

    Aay Khokhar u are fighting a War of Self Pride, Because if u accept the truth, ur image in the society of Qadiani will go down,

    I asked u to embrace Islam destroy ur self pride and become a true follower of Islam. The image u r making is only illusion of this world.

    Peace for ever and save ur self from the fire of Helll

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 8:18 #
  32. Dear Friends,
    Shimatoree says:
    ****[It is not accurate to place the blame on ZAB.
    ZAB was merely following the wishes of his constituents to obtain political benefit which is the normal way for all politicians and those that are wanabe politicians........
    The antipathy against the Ahmadis is and has been very real in Pakistan and amongst the Muslims of South Asia.
    You can call it discrimination or prejudice or anything else but it is there and has been there and is unlikely to change. That is the reality on the ground.
    It is unrealistic to challenge the fundamentals of a religion while claiming to be one of them and then expect that those that follow that religion will not feel offended.]****

    I totally agree with Shimtoree. He sums it all that above remains the case and the general standing of all the Muslims in the South East especially in Pakistan. The religious parties as well as other various jammah are seen busy in mustering all their possible powers and abilities to prop up above ‘view point’ through their fiery sermons and supportive rhetoric—day in and day out; but can we really say that our above standing is a ‘word of God’ also?

    We may call it a cry of protectionists (as they be fearing losing some grounds or else)of their peculiar understanding of the case but certainly cannot claim that it is a ‘Word from God’ also.

    Here, we need to call the pages from the history which remain in dark and are not widely discussed. We need to see Jesus (as) case of his advent as a Reformer of Judea.

    After a long wait Judea got their reformer but astonishingly they could not recognise him and out rightly rejected him and put him on cross to die a humiliating death.

    Why Judea rejected Jesus? It was exactly their view point as we the people in Pakistan of main stream seems to have taken now . We may like to call it a collective wisdom of the peoples and say that ----how the collective wisdom be wrong? But we have seen the case of Israelites. The collective wisdom sometimes takes you very far.

    We do know that Israelite kept on boasting for some 580 years that what a good job they then did to put an Imposter on cross---- but then Quran reveals for us that how wrong the transgressors were in rejecting Jesus (as)?

    Israelites were made the recipient of wrath of Allah and sadly degraded from the station of chosen people to a Rejected defunct lot.

    [Quran-3:19]says: “Surely, the true religion with Allah is Islam (complete submission). And those who were given the Book did not disagree but after knowledge had come to them, out of mutual envy. And whoso denies the Signs of Allah, then surely, Allah is quick at reckoning”.

    Here we see that:
    1) Allah is in no Hurry in correcting the path of arrogant transgressing peoples. Even their fate is told after passing of some 580 years.

    2)Allah guides not the unjust haughty people.

    Its time for our soul searching....that where we stand....!

    Regards.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 9:20 #
  33. Nota says

    Mirza Ghalib DOES enjoy a certain "morale authority" by many a standards.

    You don’t have to press that throttle that far to convince me. I do held him very High and he is doing a great service in up keep of decorum and civility on this website.

    I have come of this age and I have learnt that this remains the duty of true friends to guide you back on path where you are seen drifting.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 9:43 #
  34. "and put him [Jesus] on cross to die a humiliating death."

    Again your confusion comes to the fore: So did Jesus DIE that day as per your belief?

    [BTW: This is the first time I have seen it described as "a humiliating death." And nobody put Mirza on the cross ;-)]

    You quoting Quran to claim Mirza is "Signs of Allah" is laughable. Another interesting bit: You quote the Quran:

    "then surely, Allah is quick at reckoning"

    and you follow it in the very next sentence with:

    "Allah is in no Hurry in correcting the path of arrogant transgressing peoples. Even their fate is told after passing of some 580 years."

    Ah what reasoning!

    P.S. You once again had no answer for the Mirza saying I quoted ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 9:47 #
  35. @Aay
    "I have come of this age and I have learnt that this remains the duty of true friends to guide you back on path where you are seen drifting"

    And SS and Shimatoree seem to be doing just that ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 9:48 #
  36. Nota
    I know that you are good at putting a ‘rift to shift’ the theme of any post to the field of your choice---- i.e the Anti Ahmadiyya fields that you are good at.

    But I think better it would be that we must restrict this discussions preferably to its main theme; the ‘Engineering of a Doctrine in quest for power to Rule’.

    It is pertenent to note that in their persuasion of the doctrine to incite an uprising to achieve a wave length to make a sweep across the country and rule---- if this was not Ahmadiyya; surely they would have made someone else a scapegoat.

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 10:09 #
  37. Nota objects that:

    1)Israelite "... put him [Jesus] on cross to die a humiliating death."

    Yes; they did want to humiliate and see him die a cursed death on the cross. There was full mob of ferocious blood thirsty Israelite who have swarmed in and were forcing the Roman executioners to do that. As it was the known phenomena that only cursed are put on the cross. Certainly; they did not put him on the cross in love of him....!

    2) When I say "then surely, Allah is quick at reckoning" . Please do not quote it out of the context. Here it evolves the incident for their transgression that how they were placed defunct and made recipient of wrath of God and God says; He does not entertain any hesitation in that.

    Whereas when I say that:

    “Allah is in no Hurry in correcting the path of arrogant transgressing peoples. Even their fate is told after passing of some 580 years."

    It remains fact that then Allah does not bother about the arrogant, haughty and transgressing people.

    Jab ous ki Badal gaee Nigahain
    Shahoun ko milee naheen panahain

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 10:47 #
  38. Nota says:

    [Hey I am a true Christian. Honest! So what if I truly believe Holy Trinity is bullcrap and Muhammed (PBUH) was the LAST prophet! :-P ]

    So have done the Jews of today---- they are also seen believing in Jesus (as)....but for worldly gain only.....

    So Lagey rahou... good luck.

    But don’t forget; Islam means total submission.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 10:54 #
  39. MG,

    I see that time and again you like to refer back as I am seeking some relief in the miseries that Ahmadies are confronted with.

    No; Not at all...even not an iota of it...! Ahmadies; their case rests with Allah that Allah is the best of all the friends and there is no protector better than Allah.

    This may please be borne in mind that....Ahmadies don’t see themselves the victims.... they are the Victors.

    This discrimination, the draconian laws with the aim to make their life miserable is very superfluous; Ahmadies consider themselves by Grace of God placed in very higher echelon.

    Ous kay naam peh marain khanaa;ab Ehzaz humara
    Aisay kissi key Yeh Izzat; Ouqat naheen daykhee

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 11:13 #
  40. shafiq12
    member

    aya khokhar

    U are a escapegoat, who want to run from reality, U have created ur own religion, Sometime i Noticed that u had rejected the teaching of ur own Missah, Why u don't claim for a new Prophet of Qadianis, Are according of Qadinis "seal" doesn't mean "seal". Aay Khokhar can u please tell who will be the new Prophet who will revived ur religon after Miza Ghulam

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 11:15 #
  41. SS,

    Well I know you can’t resist slandering. So I keep ignoring you.

    But, I do think the admin must take notice of this unnecessary mocking and foul mouthing.

    Please come out worthwhile; if you can.

    Thanks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 11:20 #
  42. @Aay
    "Ahmadies consider themselves by Grace of God placed in very higher echelon"

    Ah the "chosen ones" bit again! So can you see why I accuse you of mimicking Zionists? I am sure you wont! :)

    "This may please be borne in mind that....Ahmadies don’t see themselves the victims.... they are the Victors."
    That why in the world you keep crying rivers about "Ahmedi suffering"? So can you see why I accuse you of mimicking Zionists? I am sure you wont! :)

    (Still no answer to the questions I raised earlier? Why you run from them?)

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 11:30 #
  43. @MG
    "Shimatoree's idea was best of all, short and simple: Recognise our Prophet (PBUH) as the Last Prophet and the matter is settled straightaway."

    For last few years we are here and some hundreds of pages we have gone through in exchanging of our views on this site.

    Have you ever noticed that I being an Ahmadi for that matter have ever uttered a single word of disbelief in the honour of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Then how on earth can anyone possibly say that Ahmadies do not believe in the prophet hood of Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh)?

    The only difference which can be found is in the interpretation of connotation of the word used by Allah as; kahtum Nabiyeen. That main stream Muslims they interpret and believe that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and final prophet and there is no prophet what so ever after him. They like to put a bar on the ministry of prophet hood.

    Whereas the Ahmadiyya belief is that as Allah has clarified this dilemma--- as told by their Imam Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (as) who claims to be the Promised Messiah that Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and final law bearing prophet and he is Khatumun Nabiyeen of all the prophets par excellence.

    The main stream Muslim Simply put a bar of the finality of prophet hood; fearing that if they don’t see put a bar; somehow the staus of Hazrat Muhammad may be compromised.... but

    If Mirza Sahib as the Reformer of present day and time is attributing anything which has not been revealed to him by God; Ahmadiyya view point is that rest assure that God Almighty is in control of this universe and he may take care of all such things. Allah says in surah Al-Haqqah:

    [69:44] And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to Us,
    [69:45] We would surely have seized him by the right hand,
    [69:46] And then surely We would have severed his life-artery,
    [69:47] And not one of you could have held Us off from him.
    [69:48] And verily it is a reminder for the righteous.

    So; we need to be cool and rather than increasing the adrenaline flow in our blood stream; let’s be open to reconciliation if we find that---- the case proves to be otherwise.

    Because only wise people remain open to change of minds.
    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 12:16 #
  44. Nota,

    Please go through the above post; it must cover all but even then if you are not satisfied... better come to F&R section and put up your fresh list; Insha Allah ; you will get your due replies.

    Thanks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 12:29 #
  45. OK Ak, Thanks. I, too have taken note of your phrase : We Ahmadies are not the victims, but the victors. I was glad to hear you in that frame of mind. By far the better way to look at the world. Though the best way would no doubt be to consider oneself neither victim nor victor, but simply in receipt of one's just deserts. But verily, that is a rare state to achieve.

    I'm glad you cleared up the matter of where the Ahmadis stand as regards the status of the Prophet (PBUH). It's as shimatoree said. He didn't misunderstand, neither did I.

    Last but not least, you did get the point I was trying to make without noticeable success earlier on. Reconciliation. Hatred and opposition will get us nowhere. Reconciliation well might. The para in which you evoked that possibility was very well turned. Reminded me of the AK of days gone by when I was so struck by his philosophical bent of mind.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 12:36 #
  46. "The main stream Muslim Simply put a bar of the finality of prophet hood;"

    Ah, silly us! :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 12:54 #
  47. Nota;

    "The main stream Muslim Simply put a bar of the finality of prophet hood;"

    Ah, silly us! :)=

    Nota; It is time to reconcile and not for out of context...Ah Ooh.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 13:08 #
  48. GM.

    Thanks for your kind comments.

    I do agree that Hatred and opposition will get us nowhere...Simply the Reconciliation which might.

    Koi Devana kehta hey; koi pajal samaghta hey
    Magaer dhartee ki baycahainee ko;bus Baadal samajhta hey

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 13:27 #
  49. I came across a youtube clip of very lively person. Let’s have a break and watch him:

    Regards

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 13:32 #
  50. On an other web Nazia on November 30th, 2010 commented on the subject.

    It is not engineering but forced implantation of religious rules on weaker genders by strong ruling groups.This trend was seen arising soon after the death of Holy Prophet as part of traditional arab culutre.
    It was poured in subcontinent peace culture via afghan mughal rulers and later on by Mohamed bin qasim army was sent here to implement such laws.
    In Islamic history only Suleh din ayubi was popular for giving liberal touch to islamic laws for non Muslims and minorities, otherwise most of muslim rulers implanted these laws to prolong this family rule which was highly disregarded by Prophet and 4 Caliphs.
    I have already told you that Ahmedi religion was originated in wrong place as this areas was already under control of shrine holders, whabis,shias and bralvi school of thought.All groups had warrior like history for forcing their point of ideology and religious norms on each other and other communities That is why preaching a new religion and defying the basic fundamental of all ready existed sects it self is like placing a time bomb in conservative community.After it they faced and still facing all kind of threats which could have been easily predicted before claiming like that as done by leader of this faith,British rules did their best to ignite it further so that people would have clashed with each other and this clash is still dominating in our all living characteristics for last 65 years. We couldnt get out of narrow shell of identification on religious basis instead of behaving like a nation of multiple faith.

    Posted 1 year ago on 01 Dec 2010 13:53 #

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