rocketrevolt
Blocked
What Mirzai's have to say about them?
I know you would have seen the videos of AKSheikh and Shahid kamal....check out these websites.Are they for real?
http://ahmedi.org/
http://thecult.info
http://thecult.info/blog
ps.Sorry the second link is corrected now
ased
Member
cult.info is not working
but ahmedi.org is from aksheikh he was ahmadi i think in 60s or 70s. He quit because he wasn't agree with some work withhin the Jamaat, and then he left jamaat and his point of view changes more and more from the Ahmadiyya view. It is wihtout references so pls check if i am right with this.
rocketrevolt
Blocked
Aksheikh youtube channel was hijacked by mirzai's and these days they control his channel.He or one of his friends came up with another channel aksheikhlover1 or something...I've forgotten.
ps.I am feeling lazy at the moment so dont want to dig that all up...sorry..:(
netengr
blocked
Jitni mehnat mirzaiyat phailnay main lagee hay itni mehnat ager islam phailanay main bhi laga dain tou kia baat hay :)
Asif
Blocked
netengr
Jitni mehnat mirzaiyat phailnay main lagee hay itni mehnat ager islam phailanay main bhi laga dain tou kia baat hay :)
----------------------------------------------------------
Same goes for you :-)
Jitni mehnat masjid aur madrassey ko blame karney main laga rahey hain itni mehnat ager school bananey main bhi laga dain tou kia baat hay
jaypk
Member
@netengr...Jitni mehnat mirzaiyat phailnay main lagee hay itni mehnat ager islam phailanay main bhi laga dain tou kia baat hay
i would say...Jitni mehnat mirzaiyat (k khilaf propaganda) phailnay main lagee hay itni mehnat ager ( unhein wapis bulanay) main bhi laga dain tou kia baat hay ....:)
sounds good?
There is a limit to everything,i see more than one post here on discussion on this religion Qadiyaniat...we can not expect whole of Ahmedies to convert to islam...after tryin million times to explain them about the flaws nd lies in Qadiyaniat,if they still are not convinced then we should leave them to their sorrow condition of ignorance....pray for them to God for their guidance BUT shouldn't stop talking about those errors in their teachings that have lead to questioning of Quran's opinion on Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as seal of the Prophets plus considering naodobillah the traditions of the Prophet(PBUH) untrue on matters that contradict Qadiyanit...and that is not a "Propaganda" but "defending" the truth in both the sources that some "deviant groups" tried to alter...
jaypk
Member
@rhyme..if they still are not convinced then we should leave them to their sorrow condition of ignorance....
i hope i wouldnt sound offensive and patronsiing :P in this so with all the humbleness in this world..may i ask tht what is the condition of muslim ummah excpet ahmadies since they have a sorrow condition?? are we in any good condition to rule the world or i mean whd good can you see in the muslim ummah?
i wouldnt mind if you dnt come bak on this...just in case..!
@jaypk
No Doubt Muslims are in the worst condition today for two reasons
1-Because of their own faults and wrong doings
2-because of the conspiracies and attacks on islam nd muslims by some forces in the world whose agenda is just to stop islam from growing
Now when i said Ahmedies nd other such groups are in a sorrow condition today, i meant here their belief of denying Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as the last Prophet and Messenger of God because one of the basic tenets of Faith on which a muslim's heart must be fixed upon according to Quran nd Hadeeth is to believe in the messengers of Allah...and in these Messangers,Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) holds special position being the last and final chosen person of God on whom the revelation ended and on whom we are told to trust and follow as whatever he said was actually from God...so now whoever doesn't believe in this most important part of faith and associate lies with it like Ahmedies and some other so called muslims do,dont you think its mere ignorance and disobedience?
Just a few verses about believing in only the Messengers who were selected by God one of which is Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)the last one nd the importance of belief(Aqeedah)
Allah(swt) says:
(The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books and His Messengers. They say,We make no distinction between one and another of His Messengers and they say,We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)) [Quran 2:285]
Allah(swt)says:
(Allah will not punish you for what is unintentional in your oaths, but He will punish you for your deliberate oaths) [Quran 5:87]
here in this verse some scholars have defined "deliberate oaths" as:
"The "deliberate oaths" refers to the determination that someone has deep down in his/her heart. The whole verse means that Allah will not punish people for their unintentional beliefs or deeds, but he will punish them for what they deliberately mean, whether in their deeds or intentions"
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) described how Jebreel explained faith in Islam to him;
"Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Resurrection."
So whoever doesnt believe in whatever is written in Quran and tries to change it to misguide ppl and to spread ignorance is simply ignorant!
Also important verse regarding Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as the last chosen Prophet by Allah(swt)
“but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (end) of the Prophets” [al-Ahzaab 33:40]
Do you deny it?
hkbajwa
Member
@ Rhyme
Perhaps one should actually ask an ahmedi what their belief is regarding the Holy Prophet (pbuh)
The thing is that from what i understand, the ahmedies not only consider The Prophet(pbuh) to be the highest of the prophets, but also that revelation came to an end with im. By that they mean that the Quran is the final book and the law of the prophet is the final law.
Their contention is only that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was the Imam Mehdi. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed never claimed to change the laws given unto us by the Prophet(pbuh). Nor did he claim to make any changes to the Quran.
I think this is an important point to remember, because all anger towards ahmedis is focused on their alleged denial of the Prophet(pbuh), but the fact is that they do not deny him, do not deny his supremacy, nor do they deny the finality of his Book. They merely believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to be the promised Messiah, the Imam Mehdi, whose arrival is foretold in the Quran.
Anyhow i hear a whole lot of things regarding how they are "corrupting" islam. If they were denying the supremacy of the Prophet(pbuh) or denying the finality of the Quran then i could understand. However, as it is, all they claim is that they have identified the Promised Messiah. And so what?
From all i've ever seen and heard, as a community they seem to function more according to islamic laws and customs than many others. They also have a startling level of literacy for both men and women, and engage in a whole lot of welfare and charity projects int he 3rd world. And let's not forget that pakistan's first nobel laureate and our first judge in the Hague were ahmedi.
Anyhow my point is that i don't understand what the big deal is. What corruption are they engaged in. It's very easy to say that they are sowing "confusion". But how?
hkbajwa
Member
what's up everybody?? i'm not getting any explanation here..
What is this so called corruption that the ahmedis spead??
toamin
member
are you an ahmadi bajwa? why do you reject hadith as ruling/judgement for muslims' actions?
hkbajwa
Member
Well to be honest i'm a little bit of everything. My maternal side is protestant christian and my father's side is ahmadi muslim.
I consider myself an ahmadi muslim humanist. I also like to think there's a little bit of buddhism thrown into the mix.
Unlike most people, my religious denomination is not a statement of my affiliation but rather of my own belief. I consider myself to be of the same religion as those who espouse peace, love and compassion for their fellow human beings. Muslims, hindus, christians, buddhists, zoroastrians, pagans and even the odd wiccan belong to my religion :).
Oh i would appreciate it if people didn't make it a big issue that i call myself an ahmadi muslim.. I mean i know i am liable to prosecution and death on account of the fabulous blasphemy law of pakistan, which denies me the right to call myself a muslim, but i mean come on.. is that really necessary?
Anyhow regarding the hadith. I do not outright reject all hadith, but i do view them with scepticism. The fact is that in my world the authentication of hadith by scholars who lived hundreds of years after the holy prophet (pbuh) has very little value. Firstly, they were not guided by God in this authentication process, but rather by their own intellect and by oral history. Secondly, God gave complete guarantee for the Quran, but not for the hadith. But most important of all, God stated that everything man needs to know is in the Quran and he has given mankind the mental faculties to be able to understand the Quran. The hadith may be a help, and everybody is free to view the Quran through the vision of the hadith, but i personally believe that man should view the Quran through his own eyes. I would not counsel such if God had not guaranteed its authenticity and the complete lack of contradiction in it.
WHy quibble over the authenticity and relevance of hadith when the Quran is there to guide us?? I don't get it.
Particularly the mullahs tends to get furious at this thought and i believe i know why. It is because the hadith tend to limit the spectrum of possible interpretations of the Quran, and gives a greater freedom of personal understanding. that unfortunately is something abhorrent to those who wish to create uniformity in belief.
I think that God made 7 billion humans with each their own amazing intellect precisely to show how beautifully versatile and relevant this one book is to each and every individual. We should not be shunning diversity but rather embrace it. When we embrace it, that is when peace will finally occur. But until then we will ahve constant war between those who wish THEIR interpretation to become the single and unquestioned interpretation to be imposed on all.
War isn't caused by differences of opinion.. it is caused by non-acceptance of those differences.
So yeah one may read and accept the hadith by all means. I just think it is far more challenging and far healthier for a person to read the book itself rather than the guide to the book.
azzmat
Member
hkbajwa
A very enligtned post but I am afraid that most people on this site dont have the brain power to understand the meaning of what you wrote. I really enjoyed this part of your post.
Unlike most people, my religious denomination is not a statement of my affiliation but rather of my own belief. I consider myself to be of the same religion as those who espouse peace, love and compassion for their fellow human beings. Muslims, hindus, christians, buddhists, zoroastrians, pagans and even the odd wiccan belong to my religion :).
hkbajwa
Member
@ azzmat
Thank you for appreciating and understanding. And yeah i do know that such statements as mine are bound to ruffle a few feathers.. particularly because i have the gall to call myself an ahmadi muslim.. people reeeeealy hate the ahmadis.
Anyhow the funny bit is that i also debate on a conservative american website, and there this statement also created a big rucus. It's very difficult for human beings to discard existing prejudices and preconceptions about human divisions and groupings..
As a person of mixed cultural, national, liguistic and religious heritage i tend to tick people off everywhere :)
Here in pakistan i'm a gora/mirzai/kaafir, but in the west i'm the ****/moslem/potential terrorist. It's not easy :)
toamin
member
well hkbajwa i do appreciate your open minded thinking and sharing it with confidence, i may not agree with your views of "a little bit of everything", but at least i got a fair idea of what your thought process is -thanks
azzmat
Member
hkbajwa
The values that you are talking about are ideas that a person only gets with enlightenment. I have been enjoying your posts on the forum. Thank you for taking your time to write.
toamin
member
for you your 'enlightenment' and us our 'enlightenment' :)
hkbajwa
Member
@ Salam
There are many lies in the universe, but only one truth. Yet even a single truth can be seen from infinite angles..
One must be careful what they label a lie lest it is merely a different view of Truth
Even the mightiest of lies cannot beat the smallest of truths
hkbajwa
Member
@ azzmat
My pleasure :)
toamin
member
hkbajwa,
i do try to be careful and only label something lie that i am 100% convinced of, else i wont use such a strong word! i honestly believe that mirza ghulam ahmad qadiyani was a liar- sorry no offence meant-
hkbajwa
Member
@ salam
Well it doesn't really matter whether you consider him a liar. I mean genuinely, it is inconsequential. One does not need to love the source to understand the information.
As it is, Mirza ghulam ahmed considered himself to be a a reformer. And there are some of his reforms that i truly do appreciate.
For instance he was adamant that the era of Jihad of the Sword is over and it is time for a Jihad of the Pen. The ahmedi community started educating their women at a much earlier stage than most muslim communities in the sub continent. even today they have a startlingly high level of literacy. Now that's a reform i can respect.
Similarly, all ahmedis are strictly forbidden from engaging in violence or conflict in the name of their faith. My father for instance gave up his factory in sourthern punjab after the local DG threatened to start a sectarian riot. Before that my father had been engaged in trying to protect his investment, but the instant religion was brought into the conflict he up and left. I cannot tell you what level of patience it takes for a people to NOT lose their composure when they are attacked for their faith. It is a reform that requires great spiritual strength and it is one that i respect.
In the ahmedi community, scholars are also prohibited from holding public office. Their role as scholars and repositories of knowledge is defined and administration is left to qualified persons. It is a community where administration is not based on holiness but rather qualification.
I am wondering if you can tell me other than Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's claim to be the Promised Messiah, what you consider to be lies in ahmadi belief?
toamin
member
my dear values or virtues of ahmadi come later, first come the concepts, the beliefs they hold- i find the claims of mirza to be false so i wont take his teachings/guidance-
colonials always need services of likes of syed ahmad khan or mirza ghulam qadiyani or husn mubarak or qarzai or musharaf they are all same for me- slaves of colonials trying to convince locals to adopt colonials as their legitimate kings and stop resistance against them-
hkbajwa
Member
@ Salam
I believe this is an issue of context.
Civilizations, administrations and cultures, rise and fall. In the modern world muslims will be spread over a variety of nations and must integrate and become positive members of all these.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was not speaking of a complete submission to colonial rules and culture, but rather promoting a "change things from the inside" attitude. Whereever Ahmadis have gone in the world they do not acquire a revolutionary stance. The manner in which change is brought about is to first fight peacefully for the right to inclusion in governance, and then through this process change the style and culture of administration and governance.
He was speaking in terms of evolution rather than revolution. Please note that the ahmedi community was very active in the making of Pakistan, whereas other religious outfits were actively against it. I don't know how this fits in with the perception that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was subservient to the british.
nevertheless it is true that all ahmadis are instructed to follow the laws of the lands whereever they may be in the world. If the laws do not suit them, they are encouraged to try and change them from within the system or to leave.
Peaceful resistance and slow change is what is advocated. However it never sounds as exciting as the revolution of the firebrand mullahs. that might perhaps be why it comes across to some people as subservient. Yet holding your peace int he face of opposition is far harder than flying off the handle.
Also i don't mind if you consider his claim of being the promised messiah to be a lie. I am more curious as to what aspects of ahmadi beliefs are repugnant to islam other than the status of Mirza Ghulam ahmed.
toamin
member
i agree that civilizations, administrations and cultures rise and fall- this is whole new dimension to discuss causes of rise and causes of fall-
right, mirza ghulam ahmad qadiyani recommended to become part of the problem to fix the problem-
as i've said before, first i don't even recognize his claims of prophet hood which means basic flaw with character so what to talk about guidance from corruption?
as far as the philosophy of joining the problem to cure the problem is concerned i find it contrary to the sunnat of Rasulullah Salallahu Alayhi Wasalam in makkah & madina, He Salallahu Alayhi Wasalam was offered membership of darul-nadwa, was offered to become ruler to become part of the system, part of the traditions, but i see that he not only rejected but also openly challenged in society-
but you see, you reject hadith, you reject the example of Prophet Muhammad Salallahu Alayhi Wasalam so for you "sunnat" of mirza ghulam ahmad qadiyani is superior, mirza's interpretation is the "hadith" for you-
hkbajwa
Member
@ salam
Firstly, no man's interpretation is superior to me. My understanding is mine alone and God's judgement of me will be between me and God alone.
As to the superiority of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed i can assure you that even he never considered himself superior to the prophet (pbuh). There is no ahmadi that considers Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as superior to Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh). Ahmadis consider his interpretation of the Quran and Sunnah to be superior to all mullahs, scholars and maulvis of the last 1400 years (after the caliphs). In no way do they negate the prophet (pbuh) and in no way do they negate the infallibility of the Quran.
I see no contradiction or corruption in that since even in this day and age we have characters like Maulana Abdul Aziz (of lal masjid and burqa fashion fame) who claim to be revieving instructions from God directly. Ahmadis simply reject the scholars/mullahs/maulvis/maulanas of yesteryear who have all played a part in the slow decline of Islam. after all if they were actually doing and interpreting things RIGHT, then Islam wouldn't be in such dire straights with internal rift and violence and rampant non-adherence to the basic tenets of the faith.
Islamic dogma was in need of an update in order to bring it back to the pristine nature it had during the prophet's and caliphs' times. For that all the dirt that had piled up over the centuries had to be rejected. And so he did.
Also it is the right of every human being to challenge dogma according to his understanding. For that he cannot be punished or condemned unless his understanding permits him to cause tangible harm to other humans.
You speak disparagingly of the "change things from the inside" principle. I beg to differ though. The example of the Prophet (pbuh) cannot be compared for one simple reason. becoming a part of the system for Mirza Ghulam ahmed did not require him to give up his faith or to cease preaching it or to deny his beliefs. That however was the case when the Prophet (pbuh) was offered membership of darul-nadwa. Whatever the british did, they never denied the freedom of religion to anyone, and thus assimilating into their system and changing it from within would not have required unacceptable denial of faith.
The prophet (pbuh) could not compromise on his faith and so he refused. Likewise ahmadis cannot compromise on their faith and thus still consider themselves muslim though the law of the land in pakistan does not allow them to do so. Yet they are still patriotic and work for the betterment of this country like any other patriotic pakistani. I mean somebody like Dr. Abdus Salam was the first person to wear his native garments when receiving the Nobel Prize.
Anyhow i repeat my question though... if you put aside the "claim to prophethood" controversy, can you actually define what it is about ahamadi belief that allegedly spreads corruption??
toamin
member
well, causes of decline of muslim ummah is another subject and i tend to agree on "mulla' being one cause of decline-
but accepting prophethood of mirza ghulam ahmad qadiyani is another subject, his actions, guidance, and philosophy is another debate, similarly rejecting hadith, ijma sahab and qiyas is another debate
we have opened up so many accounts right now and i think we need to truncate the list to root level which i think are rejection of hadith + mirza ghulam ahmad qadiyani's claim of prophethood-
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