bsobaid
Member
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/mar2011-daily/08-03-2011/col9.htm
This bill prohibits dual nationality and overseas property and assets for MNAs.
Most leaders will convert their property to their relatives names so it wont be as effective but dual nationality ban is a good one.
Not sure which party he belongs to, either PPP or Q-League I believe.
liv_2_die
Member
it is stupid .. and hassan nisar anyways in an idiot of highest class .. how can such a thing work if its not for every1 .. sab braber hone chahihey ... agar aik aam pakistani overseas property le sakta hai toh same oppertunity should be there for every other pakistani .. be it a politician, judge or army officer ...
U CANT JUST DICTATE PEOPLE WHAT TO BUY OR NOT .. this is against basic human rights and can never be implemented .. siyana bun-ney ki koshish (again proves hassan nisar is an idiot)
P.S:- agar aisa hi motabla moulvi karen (regarding islam) to inko inteha-pasand/extremists kaha jata hai .. wonder if someone would call this extremism also
This Bill will make 70% of your MNA's ineligible.
Some of the Big GUNS who will get affected are,
Zardari
Gilani
Rehman Malik
Chaudhry Shujaat
Chaudhry Pervaiz Ilahi
Nawaz SHAREEF
Shahbaz Shareef
Farooq Sattar
Hamayun Saifullah Khan
Raja Pervez Ashraf
Ch. Nisar Ali Khan
Makhdoom Syed Faisal Salah Hayat
Makhdoom Muhammad Amin Fahim
Wasim Akhtar
Syed Haider Abbas Rizv
I hope that this bill is approved though I really doubt that this spineless, corrupt politicians will be so dumb.
liv_2_die
Member
ohhh khan sahib .. this is only a drama .. its against basic human rights so it can never be implemented .. it will be challenged in the court of law even it is passed (it will never be passed/debated) ... come out from the dream world ..
What Basic Human Rights are you talking about in Pakistan??????
Human right not to be killed by Drone?
Human right not to be killed by target killing?
Human right not to be killed by a suicide bomber?
Human right to have basic amenities available?
Human right to have corruption free politicians?
oh bhai, your National and Provincial Assembly is full of crooks.... Why do you want to them to rule this country and rape us day in and day out?
At least support some good move by a politician rather then criticizing for no reasons.
liv_2_die
Member
all of what you said is true .. all of that is against basic human rights ... so is this bill .. this can never be implemented .. hence its only a topi drama .. its niether according to the 'basic human rights' as WEST ke pithu say ... not is it 'islamic' .. this is a NO-NO move .. so support kerna kahan se aa giya .. dont get blinded by ur patriotism .. ahliyat k liye degree bhi shart rakhi gaye thi ... u know wot hapened wid tat ... wot makes u think this would go any further ... sab topi drama
Dusky
Member
Dual citizenship holders, who they are representing, country where they get elected or country they adopt to live in?
No dual citizenship holder should be able to hold the public office or any kind of government job either. No one knows where their true loyalties are.
bsobaid
Member
Dual citizenship should definitely be banned for MNAs. I have no 2 opinions on that. Overseas assets is ideally a good thing but it is not practically possible to implement, but a good move regardless.
liv_2_die
Member
rather then banning such things .. why dont we use our brains and cast votes properly to make sure only able ppl make a MNA in the first place ..
kulla
Member
agree with liv_2_die... we need to e more proactive than reactive all the time
Technically I think this bill is illegal because it takes away rights of a citizen of Pakistan, you can't make classes of citizens where every citizen doesn't enjoy the same previliges. Pakistan allows dual citizenship and that's what defeats this bill in the court of law, it's not illegal to enter politics even if you have dual citizenship. And when you make it illegal for certain citizens to enter politics than you are clearly discriminating.
Also, Pakistan cannot revoke dual citizenship law because than overseas Pakistanis will not send in remittences to Pakistan which inturn will hurt the economy. Fix the country and give everyone an opportunity to earn an honest and decent living than you can revoke the dual citizenship until than leave this issue.
In any case, this bill won't go far as it is just a topi drama by PML-Q, why didn't they present it in the parliament when they were in power and could have clearly passed it with ease!
bsobaid
Member
@live_2_die, I dont agree with your point.
The onus should be on those who are participating rather than those who are selecting.
If a dual nationality holder forces a person to vote for him then the voter can not do much, or he would have to endanger his life if he refuses to vote. On the other hand if the law prohibits a person to become MNA to have dual citizenship, it makes selection on the voter part much easier.
We need to make life easier for voters rather than making them responsible for everything because we know our voters are not always free to make their choices.
kulla
Member
lol true... sub topi drama hey... our entire political scenario is a circus and a play of deception and illusion for the poor man.
kulla
Member
bsobaid... your intension is good but reacting and creating work arounds for fixing problems wont fix things in long runs and we will be bandaiding everything.... we need to create sustainable long term policies and address the problem not the symptoms.
already we had a policy for BA degree, and then what happened how many mna/mpa got jali degrees... and even then they are in power..so all of these are just bandaid solutions.
We need to educate voters, and ensure that elections commission disqualify ppl based on existing rules first...All politcians needs to declare assets including unnamed ones, plus they need to have all their assets in pakistan.
liv_2_die
Member
@ basobaid
lol .. wot an irony .. why not just make it a law to vote for mr X only and thus make life easier for voters .. even simpler why even vote (make life more easy) .. we have to udnerstand its us who have to change as iqbal said famously (also clearly said in Quran)
Khuda ne aaj tak us qom ki haalat nahi badli
na ho jisko khiyaal aap apni haalat ke badalney ka
we have to change ourselves first .. only then we can change who rules us .. qom pehle badalti hai aur hukmaran baad mein
bsobaid
Member
Obvious grounds for defection such as dual nationality or conviction in a serious crime should be enforced.
For the rest, let the voters decide.
liv_2_die
Member
even better ... let the voters decide if they want this bill to be enforced or not ..
bsobaid
Member
If Parliament passes it then it means voters support the bill. So this Hiraaj guy did the right thing.
liv_2_die
Member
mein ni boldi loko merey vich mera yaar bolda ..
shirazi
Member
In a country where you can't enforce RGST, agriculture tax this bill stands no chance. It's like telling politicians to sign their own death warrants.
"This bill prohibits dual nationality and overseas property and assets for MNAs."
And the biggest supporter is Ch. Shujaat who has already moved all his monies to Spain, Dubai, Malasia, etc. And as KHAN_Sahib pointed out, they themselves have other citizenship....
Remember the Bank of Scandal is all about this: The Chaudhries used it to sell all their assets here when they smelled Mush might be history. The problem was how do you find buyers with so much cash (for they had a LOT to sell)? They used BoP to tell the buyers "Hey, no problem! We'll get you the loan!" and they did through BoP, took the cash, transfered it overseas and of course most of those loans are unpaid -- about Rs 160 Billion worth.
And all SC is worried about is Rs 9-13 Billion skimmed by one of Chaudhrys agents
GOOGLE
Member
I heard that German law bans Politician from owning business and politician get salary from Govt. Recently Japanese Foreign minister resign because of getting political donation of $600 from a Korean who resides in Japan. Japanese Law prohibits politicians of getting donations from Foreigners so that Foreigner don't influence internal politics.
In USA a USA citizen cannot be president unless he is born in USA.
So banning Pakistani politician owning businesses assets, dual nationality in foreign countries doesn't violate human rights etc.
Every country has laws to protect their internal politics and its good thing.
Chaudhry Shujaat has a house in Harefield area in the outskirts of london with the name "FArm House" It's on a road where only multi billionaires can afford to buy houses and the houses have names and not numbers.
Once you enter in that house, you have to drive in to reach to the main building. The house caters approx 18 Garages and there were 18 cars parked in front of every garage. None of the cars were your normal ordionary cars but almost all of them had price in excess of £90000 which included 3 Bentley's, Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren, Ferrari, Porsche and a range of sports car. That House has it's own small golf course and Chaudhry's sahib has a guest house away from his main residence where he meets his guest and entertain his friends. That house must be in excess of £3500000 (483,919,522 Pakistani Rupees) I am surprised that goons like him are also supporting this bill? Or perhaps the bill should include a condition that none of the blood relative should have any property abroad too?
shirazi
Member
@KHAN_Sahib
How do you know all these details? Were you were invited to farm house?
It's good to know others are catching up with Sharifs and Zardari :)
@Shirazi...
Yes, I was invited to treat his Parkinsonism by one of my friend (Like a typical illiterate person who invited me thought that a every doctor can or must be treating Parkinsonism) This was back in 2006-07... Now you could imagine what their wealth will be (I remember he came back from germany after his ENT check up / treatment there. Not sure where he gets his brain checked out?
@KHAN_Sahib
"I am surprised that goons like him are also supporting this bill?"
Oh that's no surprise. I am sure they have those assets in the name of their kids/family members/some front company and will claim they don't own them (and like Gilani and Sharifs claim they are living off of loans from their children).
shirazi
Member
I think our 3rd tier in politics is not that corrupt, 2nd tier fairly corrupt but the biggest problem is the top tier Zardaris, Sharifs, Chaudhrys. This sort of legislation would bar them but it stands no chance getting through parliament.
I heard that that Chaudhries are the main stake-holders of Florida Natural
Any idea...?
BTW: Let's not forget Mr. Hiraj has probably put this bill up to appeat a bit 'honest' after one of his scams was in the headlines recently:
The Story Breaks (Hiraj snapped up Rs 6 BILLION plot for Rs71.6 million and that too to be paid later):
Suo motu: Court takes notice of plot allotment to Hiraj
Hiraj claims: I's MINE! Honest!
‘This plot is mine’
And later, maybe not!
MNA surrenders valuable plot
(The sad thing here is it appears the 'whistle-blower', some Shabnam Ashraf, got punished too)
jabalultariq
Member
yawn !! tell me something new , our leaders perhaps have more foreign assets than we know.........the question is what do we do about it !!
is the content available on the internet?
I can post chaudhry's Shujaat home picture but it will not give a proper idea about the property as the front gate and the trees obscure the view inside...
Never mind Chaudhry Shujat and Parveiz Elahi, the bill in its own right is a step forward in the right direction. Have you all listened to yesterday's Kal Tak where both IK and Raza Hyatt Hiraj were participating? They sounded reasonable enough. And IK also talked about the most recent announcement from the Electoral Commission that tremendous amount of ballots cast in the last election were false. No mandate for the present govt and parliament therefore. We are being illegally governed.
Make up your mind: either we try and get ourselves straightened out this way or the bloody revolution is on its way. And what we manage to do by way of bloodshedding then will go down in the textbooks with a shudder.
I think the Electoral commission head should be a totally non political and perhaps a retired judge and not a bureaucrat. Pakistan needs a Population consensus and then electronic registration (It will be easy as we have now electronic NADRA records) of the voters. Just like in England, every citizen should have access to the voting list (In England you can pay a nominal charge and can obtain the voters list for your or any constituency) This way it will be fair and no one can claim of any fraud.
Unless we sort this problem out first, you will have ghost voters voting for these corrupt politicians.
Also there should be political debates between (Compulsory) all the parties heads (LIVE) in the preceding month of the voting. The Parties would have to explain their Manifesto in their essential party transmission prior to these live programs and then they have to answer questions about Governance, Economy, law and order, Corruption, Education, Health, Foreign and Defense Policies. Let the whole nation see these leaders and decide for themselves. Even after that if they chose Zardari or Nawaz then let them live in this system till either they just stop moaning about corruption and cost of living or become a part of a BIG Corrupted Society which more or less is already established.
The above bill should also have a condition that all MNA's and MPA's should furnish all their accounts, assets to the election commission and media and have to give proof of their legality and the taxes paid since the acquisition of these properties. No blood relative should be allowed to hold any foreign properties abroad as long as you can prove that those properties were bought before the election with legal money with all the taxes and formalities taken into account.
@KHAN_Sahib
"I can post chaudhry's Shujaat home picture but it will not give a proper idea about the property as the front gate and the trees obscure the view inside... "
Do it anyways...and if possible, do post the address and let's see if Google Earth gives us a better picture.
BTW: This bill was the topic of last night's Kal Tak and I was surprised IK could be so foolish. Remember Ch. Shujaat is the chief supporter of this bill. Now IK was claiming -- and I am not joking -- that only those who have foreign assets will oppose the bill/not vote for it. In fact he was challenging the host that those who vote "No" will be the ones with assets abroad and those who vote "Yes" will be squeaky clean.
Is IK really such a simpleton????? And how could he not know about Chaudhrys assets abroad? I just don't think it's possible.
@MG
"We are being illegally governed."
I hope that's not news...NRO should have been clue enough, fake ballots or no.
As to last night's Kal Tak, do see my comment above!
Thats a brilliant idea... Google earth will give some idea... I hope the snap shot was from the day, when Chahdhry sahib have all his car parked in the sun... lol
Thanks, nota. No, NRO hasn't been forgotten and we've both agreed on the nature of this present govt before. It was just interesting to see fresh arguments coming to us from another quarter.
About your comment on Kal Tak. I scrolled upwards and reread what you had to say about SC. How stupid IK may be I cannot yet tell. But my point is still that the bill in itself, never mind the dirty past and present of those signing it, is a step in the right direction. Suddenly, who knows, they might all find themselves caught in the very net they thought they were so clever in spreading to put the people of Pakistan off the scent of their own corruption.
bsobaid
Member
@nota and mirza sahab,
Ch. Shujaat may be supporting it now because he knows the bill will never be passed or even tabled? so nothing to loose?
Secondly, Ch. may have most of his assets in his family member's names or some other front person's name so he has nothing to fear about but I believe this is the case with most big names politicians. Ishaaq Daar, Ch. Nisaar, Ch. Shujaat and co., Babr Ghouri and Shareef Brothers, and not to mention PPP ministers have huge assets abroad.
Ch. Nisar in past 2 years did massive investment in Egypt and Bangladesh. I am sure others have as well.
So, this is the reason I say foreign asset ban bill is not practica but dual nationality bill can be easily passed and is easily implementable.
@MG
"Electoral Commission that tremendous amount of ballots cast in the last election were false. No mandate for the present govt and parliament therefore. We are being illegally governed."
Expanding on that a bit, they are saying a full 40% ballots were fake. Add to that a similar number of voters whos names did not make it to polling list at the polling stations (they had registered, their names were on the list provided before the election, but the names went 'poof' in their halqa on election day) and all legitimacy of this govt goes poof too....
bsobaid
Member
ActuallyI read about the few million ballots that were found fake or 40% as nota puts it. This is pretty darn outrageous, infact I am still uncertain about the authenticity of this news item.
Should'nt they also be able to find out which constituency these fake votes were casted the most?
I have a feeling it is mostly Sindh rural areas and Souther Punjab rural areas and possibly KArachi.
Thread: http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/bill-moved-to-disqualify-mps-holding-assets-abroad#post-217752
Brought over and merged here.
Scandinavian
Member
"SLAMABAD: A member of the National Assembly has put all the top political leaders into a bind by initiating a constitutional amendment bill that provides for disqualification of a member of parliament if he possesses any bank account, assets, wealth or business outside Pakistan or has dual nationality.
The bill, a copy of which has already been submitted to secretary of the National Assembly, also seeks dismissal from the government service of those members of the judiciary, defence forces and civil services on similar grounds. The copy of the bill has also been provided to heads of all the leading political parties of the country.
Former federal minister and chairman Standing Committee on Culture Muhammad Raza Hayat Hiraj initiated the draft constitutional amendment bill seeking amendment in Article 63 of the Constitution.
Different political parties, including the MQM, Jamaat-e-Islami, Pakistan Tehrik-e-Insaaf and some members of the leading political parties like PPP, PML-N and PML-Q, have also been demanding of the politicians not to have their wealth outside Pakistan."
Link to full article: http://thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=4394&Cat=13&dt=3%2F5%2F2011
Posted 6 hours ago on 10 Mar 2011 11:00
Scandinavian
Member
Off course the bill will not be passed since many will be hit by the same bill, BUT it will be interesting to see who opposes the bill. Any jiyala or PML-N fanatic to comment?
Posted 6 hours ago on 10 Mar 2011 11:01
siddiqi73
Member
A lota and political turncoat like Hiraj is just trying to score some political points out of this bill. His own leadership, the erstwhile Chaudhries will be the first ones to hit the slammer. Raza Hiraj has just basked in his 15 minutes of fame. Thats about it.
Posted 5 hours ago on 10 Mar 2011 11:13
Scandinavian
Member
@siddiqi73
Maybe you are right about the turncoat (one of many in the parliament), but don't you agree that it will once and for all expose the corrupt politicians - regardless of part affiliation?
Or you just want to use the same old tactics of counter attacks on the opposition instead of addressing the issues?
Posted 5 hours ago on 10 Mar 2011 11:30
KHAN_Sahib
Member
Duplicate thread..
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/excellent-bill-put-forth-by-q-league-member
Could you guys not check the existing threads before posting another one.. It's kindda annoying..
Posted 4 hours ago on 10 Mar 2011 12:25
Scandinavian
Member
@Admin
Could you please delete this thread.
@Khan_Sahob
Hard to to see the duplicate thread from the other heading.
Posted 4 hours ago on 10 Mar 2011 12:59
KHAN_Sahib
Member
No need to delete the thread but this can be merged in the other or vice versa..
Posted 4 hours ago on 10 Mar 2011 13:01
Exactly, nota, exactly. "Poof" it all goes. We had an "emperor wears no clothes" situation right from the start. And it has taken us only three short years to realise this one basic fact.
IK did seem to imply he'd bring this to the attention of the court. But what he hints at and what he actually does might also be worlds apart.
I wished to add one line to my initial comment, nota. The way you described the business affairs of SC & Co. sounded most interesting. If you have anyway of communicating this view to IK or one of his close assistants, I'd strongly advise it. The man is so overwhelmed with all that he has to cope with daily, sometimes I wonder whether he ever gets to sleep at night.
I must also add that all those who came out in favour of the dual nationality part of the bill were probably right. Forget corruption, on that basis alone we'd have many of our politicians disqualified without further ado. Though there would be a way for them to get out of that fix as well, I suppose. But I was surprised to see Dell come out with counter-arguments on various questionable grounds. Dell, does that mean by any chance that IK holds British nationality along with the Pakistani one? I sincerely hope not.
jabalultariq
Member
I think the questions is'nt that they blood suckers should not have right to own foreign investements , the question is how to stop them funneling taxpayers money , first into there wallets , and then to those swiss accounts per se.
By the time a revolution comes.....hypothetically speaking....they would have cleaned us already.....
scandinavian
Member
Nowaz in Switzerland and Showbaz diverting the attention away from bigbug nowaz...listen from about 9:00
bsobaid
Member
Interesting, so the bill has been tabled in National Assembly.
See News Item # 2
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/apr2011-daily/20-04-2011/main.htm
The scope has been extended to include judges and civil servants and their relatives. So most of the reservations made in this thread has been taken care of. So some though was put behind the bill, although they chose to leave pindi wali sarkay alone. Probably they have their own code of conduct on this issue.
zingaro
Member
It is good to hear about this bill. They have included all public office holders. If they or their off springs or family members have foreign accounts, they will be disqualified from the positions. There is a clause of dual nationality matter as well. But I will suggest that there should be clause that everyone who is contesting the elections or going to hold a chair in public office, must declare his assets and affirm that these are the final ones and if any assets found for him otherwise, can be taken over by the government of Pakistan. This should be applicable inside and outside properties of Pakistan.
عبید میاں سلام
اول تو یہ قانون منظور ہی نہیں ہو گا
اگر اسطرح کا قانون جو کہہ موجودہ صورت سے مختلف ہوگا منظور ہو بھی گیا تو عدالت عظمیٰ میں اسکو چیلنج کر دیا جائے گا کہ اسکی کئی شقیں بنیادی انسانی حقوق کے خلاف ہیں
مسلہ قانون کا نہیں بلکہ ذہنیت کا ہے
امریکا میں پاکستان سے بھی بڑے بڑے زمینوں کے مالک ہیں لیکن وہ جاگیردار نہیں ہیں کہہ جاگیر دار ذہنیت زمین کے حجم سے نہیں دماغ کے خلل سے آتی ہے
اور آپ کا کیا خیال ہے کہ ایم کیو ایم اسکو قبول کر لے گی ، وہ تو اسکو اپنے قائد پر براہ راست حملہ دیکھیں گیں
FJ
bsobaid
Member
Valid point FJ bhayya, wassalam. The bill does appear discriminatory but I think in current situation it should be passed. At the very least dual nationality ban is acceptable in many developed and developing countries of the world, so there is a precedence.
I know jageerari is a mind set but this abstract behavior can be curtailed through these practical means.
Also, this is where our responsibility start. Awam should push for such bills to take effect as this bill does adress some deep and long standing sentiments of our awam but the question is, do we have any Anna Hazare?
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/hunger-strike-to-end-corruption
I suspect we are all guftaar kay ghaazi.
I'd expect parties like PTI to support such bills.
aftab arif
Member
I am going to say the obvious but why doesn't they "zameer" wake up when they are in power.
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