Fake degree holder MNA's and MPA's

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Fake degree holder MNA's and MPA's

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sweettruth
Member

National Assembly seat NA-100 is now up for grabs after another PML-N member was found with fake BA degree and declared ineligible by Lahore High Court.
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jun2010-daily/21-06-2010/u35463.htm

Another case is in the court for PP-13 where PML-N member's fake degree is being investigated by the authorities.
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jun2010-daily/21-06-2010/u35497.htm

This is height of begharati and besharmi for our assembly members. These dishonest and cheater fake degree holders should go to jail and this punishment may serve as deterrence for other cheaters. Our judicial system is useless and ineffective. In Germany tax-evaders end up in jail for not paying the right amount of tax. Our ghunday assembly members are worst and so besharam/begharat they use fake degrees to win elections. Take example of PPP's Jamshed Dasti character and he has been re-elected by the public. The bitter truth is we and our nation is education dusman and for us it is not a big deal whether you are educated or not educated. Corruption is rampant in every walk of life and has now become part and parcel of our society. Laws are insufficient to catch and punish such fake degree criminals.

Inqilabi parties like PTI, JI or MQM are struggling in vain in a society where majority of public do not believe whether their local member is educated or uneducated fake degree holder. I think serious workers of these small parties should think and re-think before they continue their political struggle for a society and public which is so corruption infested.

One more point why not Election Commission of Pakistan send expense bill of holding bye elections in these vacated seats to these fake degree holders? We are not a wealthy country and cannot afford bye elections month in month out. We MUST bill dishonest fake degree holders for the expenses of holding bye elections. Does anyone know how much does it cost to hold a bye election?

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 16:05 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

I think its a non-issue.

Acutually , these members have done a very good thing to defy the authotratian regime of ARMY to get a basic right of representation.

A law which has already been declared void and null because it was in contradiction to basic human rights defined in the constitution , is the basis of all this fuss.

Unfortunatley , our SC / Judiciary is there to prosecute the representaives of masses and validate the illegal actions of ARMY.

Height of hypocracy.

As far as the cost of bye-elections is concerned, it should be deducted from defence budget because ARMY was responsible for entacting this crap piece of law .

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 16:31 #
naseemkhanan
Member

Asif khan at his best again. Offtopic but right on his usual own track of army bashing. Have some fresh air man. What has army to do with mpas and mnas who hold fake degrees and still love to be called as Sufi Sanaullas.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 16:54 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Naseem

ARMY intacted this insane law in 2002 which has been declared ultra vires by the SC as its in contradiction to fundmental human rights.

Bahi Sahib , can u give any other exmaple of such law ? What was mushraf's qualification ?

I was just looking at Churchil's , one of the greatest ever parliamentarians , and couldn't find any degree for him .

Where in the public service politicians is limited to Graduates only ?

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 17:05 #
semirza
Moderator

I would add by saying that acquiring/having a fake degree is just being dishonest with your own self thinking you are an accomplished academic and with others too by deceiving them; making them believe you are an educated person.
Not fair at all therefore cannot/should not be favoured.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 17:14 #
drgulkhan
Member

@ sharif ka admi

its not about whether the law was ok...that is another discussion..
it is about people coming up with fake degrees...how whould you feel if i came with fake pilot's diploma or mbbs fake degree...

it is an henious offence to produce fake degree..courts should have put these b***** behind bars

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 17:18 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Mirza Sahib,

Defying a law which is contradictary to fundamental rights is the right of every person.

Fundamental rights are the basic which can't be curtailed by any legislation.

this world is full of judicial verdicts which validate the efforts for fundamental rights and declare that fundamental rights can't be susppended or violated.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 17:19 #
drgulkhan
Member

if you have criminal verdict against you ...you cannoy compete in elections....is that against fundamental rights too...

was it case of fundamental rights or try to get into the parlement by means of hook or crook??

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 17:27 #
drgulkhan
Member

and in some democracies you cannot vote if you are in jail...

and in alot of democracies in teh early stages only people who could read were allowed to participate... this was teh cas in switzerland, holland, denmark

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 17:29 #
semirza
Moderator

@Sharif Aadmi
Defying a law which is contradictory to fundamental rights is the right of every person.
Fundamental rights are the basic which can't be curtailed by any legislation.

Now what could be those Fundamentals based on them you drive such rights that consider cheating and deception as socially and morally acceptable?

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 17:50 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

drgulkhan & mirza sahib

In the start , women were not allowed to vote as well and if i remember correctly it was Newzealand which first granted women, right to vote in 1903 . We are not in evolutionary process of democracy.

Now coming to your point Mirza Sahib,

"
Now what could be those Fundamentals based on them you drive such rights that consider cheating and deception as socially and morally acceptable?
"

First , the masses of Pakistan were deperieved of their fundamental rights by an illegal/illegitimate dictatorship and then some of the brave ones defy the law.

To look and put effort for achieving fundamental rights is again a fundamental right and no one can be punished for this effort whether successful or failed.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 17:55 #
semirza
Moderator

@quote
masses of Pakistan were deperieved of their fundamental rights by an illegal/illegitimate dictatorship.

You are saying dictatorships deprived Pakistani masses of their right to education! You wan't us to believe this?

Therefore to acquire a fake degree becomes their right by default because they suffered deprivation!

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 18:16 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Right of represnetation is a fundamental right.

Right of electing/choosing representative is a fundamental right.

And if u speak of education , yes , we had more dictatorships in the country than any form of the government , yes dicatatorships are repsonsible for lack of education as well.

Mirza Sahib,
Don't try to put your words in my mouth. I was clearly speaking of right of represnetatation and u knew it.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 18:22 #
semirza
Moderator

My dear 'Right of representation through a fake degree' could be anything but RIGHT.
I don't think you have any solid evidence proving army has anything to do directly or indirectly with lack of education.

Army has a set level of minimum education required at the time of recruitment both for their RANK and FILE or have they started recruiting from Madrassas?

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 18:30 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Mirza Sahib,

If we don't have enough money after feeding this "ARMY" , and this "ARMY" has ruled us for 33 years , then definatley its responsible.

http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/part2.ch1.html

This is the reference for constituion of pakistan, chapter of fundamental rights. Please especially refer to article 8 which states

"Laws inconsistent with or in derogation of fundamental rights to be void."

and then refer to Aticle 15 to 19 which cover the freedom of movement , speech and freedom to participate in political process.

Now , let me ask one question .

a) Nelson Mandella violated the arpatheraid laws and hence was found guilty and convicted .

Did, his conviction disqualified him from subsequent political process ? Not at all sir . Because he was fighting for his fundamental rights and was subject to laws which were in-consistent with fundamental rights.

Similary , these people defied a law which already has been declared / held ultra vires by the apex court in Pakistan , so how these people can be prosecuted ? for fighting for the fundamental rights ? thats not fair sir.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 18:40 #
semirza
Moderator

Let us just stay within the confines of Paksitan Army that you relate with Fake degree holders (MNAs and MPAs) for the sake of debate.

Article 8 is about fundamental rights and nowhere in the constitution of Pakistan any thing called 'Fake' or an act called 'Deception' is favoured.

-Freedom of Movement, I doub't it is free. Try entering sensitive no-go areas.
-Freedom of Speech, Why not but watch out contents of your speech will asure you if you will suceed in keeping your head on your sholders. Sometimes speech is dangerous to one's own life. It holds true in all countries that have a prevailing Gun Culture.
-Freedom to participate in a Political Process, true but not without limitations if it is not going to be a one man party that your freedom of speech should not go against your party agenda otherwise......you would end up joining another party.

Sharif Aadmi. I conclude you have run out of argument. Lets end this here as we are going no where this way.
Thanks.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 18:56 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Mirza Sahib,

U can run away from the debate anytime and under no obligation to respond. Being a member ,i have every right to give my oponion and every duty to listen to your oponion.

Sir,

u said
"

Where its written in the constituion that COAS can become Chief executive or president ?

Where in the constitution , its written that COAS can change / amend the constitution or any law ?

Who enacted this insane , ulta vire law and under what legitimate authority ?

Sir,
its not me who is saying that this law was ultra vires. It was the apex court which has declared this law ultra vire on the grounds that its in contradiction of fundamental rights.

BTW,

i just said that ARMY enacted this law and u have brought the files and ranks and the recuritment process into the whole debate. Do u deny that ARMY enacted this law ?

Where in

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 19:10 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Mirza Sahib

My following quesiton remained unanswered.

"
a) Nelson Mandella violated the arpatheraid laws and hence was found guilty and convicted .

Did, his conviction disqualified him from subsequent political process ? Not at all sir . Because he was fighting for his fundamental rights and was subject to laws which were in-consistent with fundamental rights.

"

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 19:11 #
semirza
Moderator

Sorry Sharif Aadmi, I have already mentioned in my post. Perhaps you missed it.
Nelson Mandela a South African or what ever, kindly read my post.

When a member has nothing on offer as credible evidence to support his comments than its useless to continue. Come up with some proof and we may talk. Till than Fe Aman Allah.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 19:20 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Mirza Sahib

U didn't mention Mandella any where and for u he could be a south african or whatever but for freedom fighters and people of truth , he is one of apex marks of truth.

Btw, i don't need any certificate of credible evidence or proof.

Freedom of association , freedom of participating in political process and freedom of electing representaive and being elected as representatives are fundamental rights guranteed in the constituion and in all democratic socities.

And its not my oponion that this law was disgusting and insane ,its the verdict of the apex court of the country. If u think yourself more credible and knowledgable than the apex court , i wish u good luck.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 19:33 #
SugerMint
Member

@Sharif Aadmi: "If we don't have enough money after feeding this "ARMY" , and this "ARMY" has ruled us for 33 years , then definatley its responsible"

Can we defend corruption in Pakistani society by same token? "Since army is eating most of the resources, we don't have much left to elevate the condition of people of Pakistan" therefore once elected member or anyone get a chance to grab corruption money, they will be free to do so? I guess not.

Moral corruption is no different then financial corruption, in some cases worst as this lead to total deprivation of society.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 20:07 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

sugarmint,

if u go through the discussion that it was a secondary point in response to Mirza Sahib's question that whether i hold ARMY responsbile for lack of education as well.

Please read the message in context of the discussion. (Mattt jaaao qareeb namaaz kaaay -------). Please don't do this.

Regards

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 20:14 #
drgulkhan
Member

@ sharif ka admi
...and are other people besides mpa and mna's allowed to have fake degrees?

if yes..... i want a dozen

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 21:09 #
SugerMint
Member

@Sharif Aadmi: Why not? I am going through the same logic you presented for education.
I know army is reason for many ills in our society but last time I checked they were not in running the ghost schools!

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 21:34 #
sweettruth
Member

This thread has nothing to do with Army. We are discussing dishonest MNA's and MPA's who are rotting the system and getting elected through their fake degrees. Even our judiciary cannot even bring an action against these cheaters. I think we should build large number of jails to clean up our society from these corrupt politicians. Fake degree holders should go to jail for a minimum 1 year. Law cannot be enforced in a society where people do not have respect and fear of Law.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jun 2010 23:32 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Sweettruth

Would u tell me that who enacted this law in contradiction of fundamental rights ? ARMY . So , how they are not part of the topic . Sir , they are the clear culprits in this case.

Dr.Gul Khan
Why on the earth , everyone who differs from your oponion is either bribed or someone's agent ? Bahi , yeh taang naazri chorrain and appreciate the difference of oponoin.

To resist any draconian/authortaian law is again a fundamental right and no one should be prosecuted for a struggle for fundamental rights. Gaining a fake degree is defaintely wrong but why it was necessiated -- it was part of struggle to secure one's and masses's fundamental rights.

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 0:29 #
SugerMint
Member

@Sharif Aadmi: Representation is a privilege not a fundamental right.

For representation there are cretin criteria’s which one has to fulfill before running for the office. Irrespective of who created the rules one has to be in agreement before submitting the nomination papers, if not you are breaking the law at the first place. This is what fake degree holders did by submitting the fraudulent degrees/documents. They should be penalized for their act.

If I go by your fundamental right definition, then there should be no sealing for non Muslims or under 45 years citizen’s of Pakistan to run for the highest office, presidency. Or to run for any electoral office in the country. But this is not the case.

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 5:26 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

SugarMint,

Representation is a fundamental right both for masses to elect their representative and a person to present himself as candidate.

Sir ,
Your example of

"
I go by your fundamental right definition, then there should be no sealing for non Muslims or under 45 years citizen’s of Pakistan to run for the highest office, presidency.

"

doesn't fit into scenario as these conditions have been enacted by duly elected assembly which framed the constituion for the country and which is empowered to amend the constituion wehre as

the law u r speaking of was

a) promugulated by an illegtimate ruler
b) Its not me who is saying that it was contradictory to fundamental rights , its the apex court of the country which declared it ultra vire on these grounds
c) There is no such other precedence/law any where in the dmocratic world.

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 5:54 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Earlier i gave the example of Nelson mandela who was convicted under arpatharid regime.

What u consider him ? A convict or torch bearer of human rights ?

What u guys think of Hasrat Mohani or Muhammad Ali Johar ? Were they convicts ? No sir , its struggle for freedom , its struggle against the atrocities in which u are bound to imply the tactics to defy such draconian laws of illegtimate rulers.

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 6:06 #
expakistani
Member

one of the most funny logic " ...... these members have done a very good thing to defy the authoritarian regime of ARMY to get a basic right of representation."

you are mixing Dasti with Mendla.....

LOL

very soon you will justify suicide bombers ? how people who burn buses and bank on every riots in karachi...?

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 8:35 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

expakistani,

First u justify ARMY's rule and ARMY's authoirty to enact the electoroal rules.

And its not me who is saying that this law was discriminatory and ultra vires, it was the SC which declared it ultra vire.

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 13:28 #
Revivalist
member

Jamshaid Dasti nay awam ke adalat mai 'JAMHORI' tarikay say kabyabi hasil ke hai. Isnt JAMHORIAT responsible for all this?

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 14:01 #
sweettruth
Member

Yar Revivalist bhai

Please tell us the name of first Khalifa of Pakistan. You have been a supporter of Khilafat for too long but no one knows who will become first Khaifa of Pakistan. I am keenly interested in the name. Jamhoriat is not working very well and fake degree holders are winning elections and system has broken down. Let us assume if tomorrow we are ging to have a Khalifa, then who would you propose for this post?
And please tell us the name of first Khalifa of Pakistan!

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 14:13 #
Revivalist
member

Yar sweettruth bhai,

Ap to mujhay agencieoo walay lagtay hai, wo bhi yahi sawal pochtay hai :). The discussion is not about Khilafah, it’s about democracy and i have pointed to a very simple defect in democracy, and app bura maan gayee…

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 14:19 #
sweettruth
Member

@Revivalist

Yar I am not from any agency. I agree with you democracy is not a perfect system neither is Khilafat. It is impossible to find a perfect system for any society. We have so many systems in our country and democracy is one of them. Few years later we will have Army ruling us then few years later we will be back to democracy.

You did not name first Khalifa of Pakistan

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 14:30 #
Revivalist
member

Sweettruth,

Khilafah as a system is best, though i agree that there would be errors in the implementation of it. But democracy as a system is full of flaws and errors. The very core of democracy which is human (majority) sovereignty is fallacious. Khilafah believes and ensures Allah (swt) sovereignty by implementing the system revealed through wahi….Who is the best law maker than Allah (swt)?

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 14:55 #
SugerMint
Member

@Sharif Aadmi: Representation is a fundamental right both for masses to elect their representative and a person to present himself as candidate.

Read your last sentence again and read this with caveat(Mattt jaaao qareeb namaaz kaaay -------). Please don't do this. It's a right when you fulfill the criteria. Therefore you have a nomination process which filter those who can not qualify hence make this a privilege not a right.

And please, don't even try to compare honorable personalities like Hasrat Mohani or Muhammad Ali Johar or Mendala with fraudulent degree holders. Even the oppressive British government was not able to find fraudulent charges against those freedom fighters. All they find was civil disobedience and treason charges.

Posted 1 year ago on 22 Jun 2010 22:35 #
msyedh1
Member

Jahli degrees MNA's aur MPA's key sath sath Jahli oath lainay walay judges ka be ihtsaab hona chaye.

Posted 1 year ago on 23 Jun 2010 19:05 #
expakistani
Member

how many MPA, MNAs and Sanators got fake degree...

do we have list by party affiliation? i bet no one from MQM ANP or JI have fake degree... only those MUslim leager and PPP waley....
am i right?

Posted 1 year ago on 23 Jun 2010 19:38 #
KHAN_Sahib
Member

I am sure there are few in ANP if not all... MQM as expected... none of them will have fake degrees but you have to check if they have any FIR's against them.. lol

Posted 1 year ago on 23 Jun 2010 19:40 #
semirza
Moderator

Whole world is against Fake Degree Holders, but Pakistan……

LAHORE: While the sitting Pakistani heads of government and state continue to patronize bogus degree holders by helping them to get re-elected despite court orders, numerous countries across the globe are taking stringent actions against the elements found guilty of submitting such phony documents to meet the eligibility criteria for recruitment, to get salary raises, to lure clients and to win seats in the legislative houses.

Although the Higher Education Commission of Pakistan is looking after all the activities related to the accreditation of universities and has publicized a list of recognized universities, absence of stern laws not only continues to facilitate unscrupulous characters to buy fake degrees from diploma mills functional both at home and abroad, but a virtually non-existent legislation in this context also encourages fraudulent elements to keep on procuring and falsifying their academic credentials without any fear of being penalized or convicted.
To read further: http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=240810

Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jun 2010 15:17 #
aftab arif
Member

SC orders action against fake degree holders

According to the channel, in its detailed verdict in a fake degree case of a parliamentarian, the apex court declared possession of fake degrees a forgery, which is a criminal offence and should be punished with up to three-year jail sentence and fine under criminal law of the land.

In such a situation Election Commission of Pakistan is bound to take necessary legal action against the presenters of fake educational degrees, the court has said in its verdict.

The detailed verdict was issued Thursday in the case of a member Punjab Assembly, Rizwan Gil.

If the wrong was not stopped at the earliest the society will keep moving towards deep ravine, the bench declared

http://www.aaj.tv/news/National/165121_detail.html

What has taken them so long and what will happen now of MNA's like Jamshed Dasti who have been re-elected again.

Posted 1 year ago on 24 Jun 2010 20:03 #
drgulkhan
Member

PMLn is winning the race for fake degrees as 55 MNA and MPA from PMLn are facing the axe.

Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 17:51 #
LiberalKarachi
Member

14 MPs disqualified for fake degrees, PML-N tops list
Updated at: 2209 PST, Tuesday, June 22, 2010
ISLAMABAD: As many as 14 parliamentarians belonging to different mainstream political parties have been disqualified during the current political tenure, with Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz at the top.

According to data available, out of 14 parliamentarians disqualified for holding fake degrees include seven from PML-N, four from Pakistan Muslim League (Q) and three from Pakistan People's Party.

The seven disqualified Parliamentarians belong to PML-N included: Haji Mudassir Qayyum Nahra from NA-100 (Gujranawala), Haji Pervaiz from NA-55 (Rawal Pindi), and Javed Husanin Sha from NA-68 (Shiawal) while from Provincial Assembly included Rana Mubashir Iqbal from PP-160, Rizwan Gill, PP-34, Meer Badshah Khan Qaisrani PP-240, Haji Nasir Mehmood from PP-111 (Gujrat).

On the other hand four disqualified Parliamentarians belong to PML-Q, included: Nazir Jutt from NA-167 (Vehari) and Nagma Mushtaq long from PP-206 (Multan), Mian Ajmal Asif PP-63 (Faisalabad) and Muhammad Azam chailla Sial PP-82.

Similarly, three disqualified parliamentarians belong to PPP included: Jamshed Dasti from NA-178, Hayyatullah Tareen from NA-155 and Allah Wasaya Chunnu khan from PP-259.

The issue of parliamentarians holding fake degrees has become a national issue of grave importance as more and more parliamentarians are found to be in possession of bogus degrees.

According to the Election Commission spokesman Muhammad Afzal, the ECP has forwarded degrees of almost all the members of the Parliament including Senate, National Assembly and provincial Assemblies to the standing committee on education who had sent these documents for verification to higher education commission.

http://www.geo.tv/6-22-2010/67162.htm

Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 20:24 #
LiberalKarachi
Member

A point of much notice: Not a single person has a fake degree from Pakistani's third largest and most educated party: MQM, even though it has 25 MNAs, 6 senators and 51 MPAs along with a dozens of ministers.

Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 20:25 #
asif86
Member

kudos to mqm then.
This just shows that how powerfull people can still by pass laws and become our lawmakers.
At first it was just MPs and MLAs who were found to have fake degress but know there is speculation that many senators also have fake certificates.shame.

Posted 1 year ago on 25 Jun 2010 21:06 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Mirza Sahib

"
Whole world is against Fake Degree Holders, but Pakistan……

LAHORE: While the sitting Pakistani heads of government and state continue to patronize bogus degree holders by helping them to
"

Give an example in the world where Degree is a pre-req for being elected to assemblies ?

Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 6:31 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

SugarMint

"
nd please, don't even try to compare honorable personalities like Hasrat Mohani or Muhammad Ali Johar or Mendala with fraudulent degree holders. Even the oppressive B

"

The point is defying the oppressive rules . They defied the oppresive rules of illegitimate regimes of their time, now its differenet oppressive rules.

Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 6:33 #
Hussain Farooqui
Member

In this modern era, degrees are meant for determining the eductional caliber of a person. Naturally, some standard educational caliber is required to be public representative in the contitutional assembly of Pakistan.

Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 6:39 #
Sharif Aadmi
Member

Hussain Farooqi

Is there any other country which has something like this condition ?

Bahi meeray , we have population in which hardly 20% are grdauates. How can we discriminate against 80% of our population ?

Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 7:37 #