Glory, piety and politics « PKPolitics Discuss

PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

Glory, piety and politics

(53 posts)

12 Next »

zia m
Member

On the one side are those we call the masses and who play the most direct role in politics of democracy; whereas on the other side are large sections of the middle class whose youth it seems have completely fallen away onto the right, lapping up fanciful myths of glory and power and punchy reactionary oratory that is fed to them by the new set of preachers, private TV channels and fringe politicians. This class, believing in pious and patriotic proclamations expertly wrapped in delusions of grandeur and conspiracy theories, stands completely isolated from the ongoing masses-based democratic process that is underway.

This continues to fall inwards; it is a psychological introversion that may well be making a number of educated young men and women hold somewhat xenophobic, chauvinistic and at times completely irrational ideas about glory, piety and politics. And what’s even more worrying is that maybe very few of them are aware of the bundle of spiritual and ideological dichotomies that the emerging trend has turned into

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/nadeem-f-paracha-glory-piety-and-politics-430

Posted 2 years ago on 17 Mar 2010 1:02 #
Anti Pakistan
Member

Democracy is curse, It's an evil thrown on us by jews. Jews have planned this for centuries, and this is hard part of their of dream. Man can't create such a system which will prosper himself, man don't have knoweldge. That's why Allah subhana tahalla send his beloved prophet who built a society based on the principles of Islam, The society was at Top during the time of Hazrat Umer R.a when people wanted to find poor and their is no poor in the whole society. The other thing that Allah subhana tahalla want to tell man is that man is weak and Allah is supereme. Man can't be prosper until he implement the Law given by his lord (Allah subhana Tahalla).

Today the world is running with a financial crisis. Do u think to day we are using cutting edge technogy system, but still financial crysis, what is this, This is sign of Allah to the beleivers.

Posted 2 years ago on 17 Mar 2010 4:30 #
toamin
member

well said psycho!

Posted 2 years ago on 17 Mar 2010 4:32 #
Anti Pakistan
Member

@Salam

Truth is always well said, but truth is harsh to accept

Posted 2 years ago on 17 Mar 2010 4:37 #
toamin
member

but i see that our beloved MQM members (6-7 active ones) avoid intellectual discussions and only focus on defending altaf hussain by bashing some other personalities, they should also debate and discuss MQM intellectual philosophy and defend it here

Posted 2 years ago on 17 Mar 2010 5:34 #
Anti Pakistan
Member

mqm and other parties are working money,and money is reward of this world but fewer are working for will of Allah, and the will of ALLah is greatest reward for the believer in the heaven

Posted 2 years ago on 17 Mar 2010 5:41 #
choosy
Member

@Zia m,
awam ko Atta ,cheeni ,bijli aur gas kay buhran mein itna uljha diya gaya hay kay they can not take any look towards Govt policies ,they have no time and no interest .
bread and butter earning makes them busy 24/7 .
and Govt is happily playing flute ,gifted by Uncle Sam.

Posted 2 years ago on 17 Mar 2010 5:45 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@choosy: Lies!, jhoot!, buhtan!.

Awam ne khud!! apne liye Ata, cheeni, bijli, gas, petrol, aur har doosre tarhan ka buhran pasand kia hai. Khud! pasand kia hai apne liye inho'n ne ye.

Wo is ke satae nahi hue, unho'n ne apne liye yahi! pasand! kia hai.

This bread and butter is BS!. Its baseless! 'bakwas!'. This bread and butter situation has come as a result of decision making of the many, of the poor and rich alike.

Those who have money within our ranks, what are they doing ?

Hamari awam ne jab baar baar poochne par apne liye barbadi hi pasand ki hai, to phir kis baat ki complain karna ?

Sab! heele bahane hain. Sab! 'bakwas!' hai.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 16:47 #
achtung
Member

harris bhaii
na-umeed hona kufar hai. isha allah achey din zaroor aaen gey.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 17:50 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@achtung: More empty 'slogans' ?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 17:59 #
tamaazkhan
Member

"This bread and butter is BS!. Its baseless! 'bakwas!'. This bread and butter situation has come as a result of decision making of the many, of the poor and rich alike.."

I do not get this point, can you please elaborate?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:08 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: Spend time looking around you, interacting with people around you. People who are rich, who are poor and those who are from the middle class.

Note their;

(1) words
(2) decisions
(3) actions
(4) education level (skill)
(5) knowledge level (ways of living life) (wisdom)
(6) way of going about matters

(7) level of honesty
(8) acceptance level for justice
(9) level of bravery
(10) level of acceptance, of agreement of the concept 'self reliance'

(11) acceptance level for settling their disputes through the court of law, or by peaceful means, rather than through brutality

(12) acceptance level for rules, principles, guidelines, laws, best practices, best ways of going about something

You'll get your answer.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:15 #
zia m
Member

hariskhan,
Are you saying mulla has completely failed to deliver?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:23 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris

What I see is desperation amongst the lower classes. Day laborers who work for 150 rupees a day, families without proper nutrition.
- Children dying of curable diseases without access to palliative care, while governments build specialised hospitals.
- Children not getting basic primary education while Universities are being instituted.

Food, shelter and education, in my opinion, seem to the the major issue at hand, and rich use that need of basic neccesities to enrich themselves further.

How can any of this be because of the decision making of the poor?
How can you say it is all bakwas?
What do you do with a man who steals bread to feed his family?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:24 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

zia m: No.

I'm saying the people have sidelined them, the people have ignored them. As a result, the people are continuously miserable.

In the old eras', people didn't give any importance to rulers. They used to give more importance to MULLAH (the wise, the knowledgeable).

Since the 'materialist' approach to life became the norm, this changed. Now the people are running after their leaders, rather than those who are wise among them, those who are knowledgeable, those who know better.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:26 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: Its basic instinct for people to choose those to handle their collective affairs, who are better in dealing with them.

Our people do the exact opposite, consistently.

Hasn't the poor of this nation been watching himself being made a fool for decades ?

(1) Why hasn't he changed his decision on who to vote for, in decades ?

(2) Why does the poor man go to political campaigns of those who shower them with money, with some bits of food, for buying their votes, when they know, this guy has been swindling them for decades ?

(3) Doesn't the poor of this nation watch TV ?

(4) Don't you think they would have interest in betterment ?

(5) Does being poor mean, people don't make decisions in their life ?

(6) Have you ever considered, why they consistently make wrong decisions over and over again, over a period of decades ?

Why do these people never tire from making wrong decisions ?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:29 #
tamaazkhan
Member

"In the old eras', people didn't give any importance to rulers. They used to give more importance to MULLAH"
-Haris, we have been through this before. Which historic period is this that you are talking about?

Mullah as I understand it, for Sunni's at least, is a South Asian invention. It origins lie with contact with chiristians, hindus and aspects of Shia Islam.

The Mullah has been around since the Safavid empire in Shia Islam, however.

Can you please provide some facts to back up your argument.

PS.
I do not categorize basic necessity as materialism, I call it survival, which the situation for most of the poor in Pakistan.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:32 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

MULLAH is that person who;

(1) has the most knowledge, of both DEEN and 'dunya'
(2) has the most thinking power
(3) lives his life according to principles set by Islam

--------------------------------------------------------

survival ? What survival ?

Do you ever ponder why the people who can't even afford a decent living, why they have items of luxury at home, rather than those items which they 'need' ?

People for a long time now, have been amassing 'wants', rather than 'needs', especially the poor.

I call it 'materialistic' life, rather than survival.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:36 #
Anonymous

Actually the reason for all this is because of complete negligence of middle class in political affairs and bureaucracy as most middle class are white colors like lawyers, engineers, doctors, managers, entrepreneurs, teachers etc and they are considered as back bone of any country because they play a role of bridge between lower class who are mostly labors, workers, servants etc and upper class who are mostly Investors, landlords, capitalist etc so the job of this middle class is that they work as a mediator between lower and upper class and their job is to satisfy both classes all together....Their are only few examples where they are became part of political affairs and bureaucracy and they have produced people like Mustafa Kamal, AQ Khan, Niamat Ullah Khan and many other names for Pakistan but all we got is upper class dealing with lower and middle class altogether and trying to

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:38 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@zia m: What you are not understanding is that the MULLAH is the 'torch bearer'. He can show you the path. He can guide you. YOU! are the one who has to make decisions for your life, once you have been given the guidance.

He's not going to;

(1) live your life for you
(2) make decisions for you in your life
(3) be the one who will live through the misery, through the consequences of your choices. YOU will be the one to suffer, to go through the misery, for making those choices

He can only show you the path. You'r! the one who has to make the decision to walk or not to walk on that path.

So far, our people have consistently made the decision to not! walk on the path, that the torch bearer has showed.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:40 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris
I'll answer these three as the others are rhetorical question.

(1) Why hasn't he changed his decision on who to vote for, in decades ?
- I believe this is a structural issue in Pakistan, look at all elected officials in Pakistan. Apart from a few exceptions in parts of Punjab and Karachi, no one represents the class from which they are elected. For democracy in Pakistan to mean anything this needs to radically change and we should all strive for this.

(2) Why does the poor man go to political campaigns of those who shower them with money, with some bits of food, for buying their votes, when they know, this guy has been swindling them for decades ?
-If you are a hari in Sindh, or bonded laborer in Punjab you dont vote for the local influential forget getting a morsel of food, if you make it home alive and your women are not dishonered you can count yourself lucky.

(3) Doesn't the poor of this nation watch TV ?
- Seeing the condition of many day laborers in Karachi, the only TV they do watch after workering for 14 hours a day is at the local dhaba, usually something ligh hearted to escape their suroundings.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:41 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: You'r answers are worthless piece of trash. Why ? Because they don't coincide with reality.

A lot of people are not living under feudals. For example those who are living in cities, or around large cities.

In-fact I'd say, most of the population of Pakistan is not! living under feudals.

If you rely on this kind of rhetoric, you'll drown in the coming times.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:43 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

The following points look suspiciously like describing a PRIEST to me.
Someone you visit at the mosque and ask how you should live your life.

"(1) has the most knowledge, of both DEEN and 'dunya'
(2) has the most thinking power
He can only show you the path. You'r the one who has to make the decision to walk or not to walk on that path."

BTW did you know certain JEWS call their preists Mullahs.
http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/bukhara.htm

The concept of Mullah is a pre-Islamic concept from Persia/Central Asia.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:45 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: I don't care for this information. It has no significance in shaping our lives for the better.

People like you have been giving out this kind of information for decades. What's the output ?

Has it helped people bring betterment in their lives ? or has it shoved them deeper into misery, as a result ?

In any case, people have put their 'trust' in the wrong people, consistently, even after they disappointed them over and over again.

This is nonsense!

Those who want to have bettermetn, learn from mistakes. Adapt according to it. Our people do not.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:47 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

Calm down if you care to read my posts, I explicitly stated the case was for Haris and Bonded-laborers. I can't exactly describe each and every situation that our lower class finds itself, I can just point out the most common.

In Urban centres like Karachi, most day laborers are Pakhtoon who unfortunately do not have the residency permits to vote where they live. They often vote in NWFP under the Malik system.
NOTE: I am only discussing Pakhtoon day laborers here.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:49 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: You can generalize. You can use stereotypes. I don't care, unless it helps in pushing our lives towards betterment.

So far, I don't see our lives moving towards betterment. So the decisions our people are making are the same old, pathetic! ones.

For example, people in NA-123 have been voting for the representative of PML-N to work for them, for 30! years. And they did nothing for them.

Now why do the people keep voting for the same man or organization, over and over again for 30 years ?

What does that tell you about the poor ?

You make a mistake once, that's good. You make it twice, it raises some level of concern. You do it thrice, its become a habbit. Do you know what this means ?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:52 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

Its information about the concept of Mullah which you introduced.
I agree with you wholehartedly discussing Mullahs will not bring any progess to our lives ever.

Please keep in check the words that you use to address me. WORDS are POINT#1 in the list of reasons for failure that you asked me to observe.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:53 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: I don't understand what your saying here.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:55 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

I did not sterotype.

I'll repeat myself I was just giving a specific example of the most common type of poverty seen in the country.

It was not meant to paint all of Pakistani poverty with the same brush, but a very large section of it.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:55 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: I'v already said, your specific example or your generalization or your stereotype, is wrong.

No need to repeat it.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:57 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

You said, while discussin the reason why Pakistan is in its current state of failure:

@tamaazkhan: Spend time looking around you, interacting with people around you. People who are rich, who are poor and those who are from the middle class.
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/glory-piety-and-politics?replies=29#post-131850

Point#1 was WORDS. So all I am asking you is to heed your own advice.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 18:58 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: I have, especially for the last 15 years.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:01 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

A specific example is not a sterotype, its actaully the oppposite.

-ster·e·o·type /ˈstɛriəˌtaɪp, ˈstɪər-/
a set form; convention.

-spe·cif·ic /spɪˈsɪfɪk/ Show Spelled[spi-sif-ik] Show IPA
–adjective
1.having a special application, bearing, or reference; specifying, explicit, or definite: to state one's specific purpose.

Are you saying that my description of Haris and Bonded Laborers is wrong?
NOTE: Above examples do not represent ALL Pakistani lower classes

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:01 #
tamaazkhan
Member

@Haris,

"@tamaazkhan: I have, especially for the last 15 years."

Why not with me then?

"People like you have been giving out this kind of information for decades."
"You'r answers are worthless piece of trash."

I'm sure you couldve used betters words, as per your advice.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:04 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@zia m: Can you see the difference between the people of Afghanistan and people of Pakistan ?

(1) People of Afghanistan;

(a) sank multiple incoming brutal imperial powers
(b) negated having luxuries
(c) safeguarded their FREEDOM
(d) listened to MULLAH

(2) In contrast how did people of Pakistan conduct themselves ? How did Pakistani people deal with the same incoming imperial powers ?

People of Pakistan;

(a) accepted slavery of multiple incoming brutal imperial powers
(b) accepted having luxuries
(c) THREW! away their freedom (detested their FREEDOM)
(d) accepted foreign dictation for decades
(e) continue to accept foreign dictation
(f) did not listen to MULLAH, sidelined them, ridiculed them

When Afghans struggled to safeguard their FREEDOM, Pakistanis' struggled to throw away their freedom, to detest! their freedom.

Both are still doing the same. There's no indication of change in these patterns for the future.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:04 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: Because your bent on doing that which is wrong, without any guilt or remorse or discomfort or hint of changing yourself for the better if and when you find out that what you'r doing is wrong.

You! think, your benefit is in doing the wrong, making the wrong decisions, deceiving others, profiting from others's loss, etc etc.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:05 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

If you can break your standards because of my crimes.

What other exception are there to your standards?

If a man's family is starving is he allowed to break points:
(9) level of bravery & (10) level of acceptance, of agreement of the concept 'self reliance'
and attend PPP jalsas so that he may gather some bread to feed his family?

What about the following standard, if they have been wronged by a feudal who control the police and courts:
(11) acceptance level for settling their disputes through the court of law, or by peaceful means, rather than through brutality

Or is going against your HIGH standards only your right?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:10 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: (1) I gave one example where they voted for the same group for 30! years.

That means, in 30! years, they didn't learn the lesson, that the little bits they were showered with in political campaigns were worthless compared to that which they would loose, when those who they vote for, would come into power.

30! years is a LONG LONG time for people to learn lessons.

(2) There's an over-whelming majority of the poor. The rich control them are small in numbers

Do you think they don't know that ?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:12 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

Did you think of Quran, Sunnah and Islami Nizam when you make the following accusations:

"You! think, your benefit is in doing the wrong, making the wrong decisions, deceiving others, profiting from others's loss, etc etc. "

If these are true, please provide proof for each accusation.
Failing which please tender an appology.

Do you know what the Islamic punishment for making false accusations is?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:15 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: Look at your posts on this forum. That is a lot of proof.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:17 #
achtung
Member

qissa mukhtasir, dukh ye hy ke logo ne halqa 123 mei JI ko mustarid kio kia?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:19 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris,

Where am I profiting from others loss?
What have I said anythign that is unfactual and deceiving?
Where have I stated my benifit is doing wrong?

In the Islami Nizam you advocate, is the proof you see on these posts to convict me of these crimes?

Please tell me what do you call this new branch of Islamic thought?

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:19 #
achtung
Member

zardari ki tarah mullah bhi saza sey mustasna hei.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:21 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@achtung: Are we the only people who could bring betterment to their lives in these last 30 years ?

I'm sure, they could find a lot of good people in a population of around 288,000+.

NA-123 is one of the readily available example. You can apply this same! example to every other constituency. You'll find many of them don't even have any representation of MULLAH. But they would ALL have good people in them.

Wrangle! that!.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:21 #
achtung
Member

jin ko logo ne acha samjha chun liya. mullah or no-mullah.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:23 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@achtung: That is why they are consistently miserable. Their foreseeable future shows no signs of change.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:24 #
achtung
Member

then it not your problem. let them face. next time may be they more wiser. change come with time.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:26 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@achtung: Is that a hope ? From those who voluntarily accept slavery ?

Let's see what future has in-store for these people. I see an increase in misery for them, at least in the short term.

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:30 #
achtung
Member

change will come. but after som time. this way or that way. relax

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:31 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Situation changes (for the better) for those who;

(a) have the will, the struggle in them to bring the change
(b) who have the resolve to remain steadfast
(c) who have the will to adhere to principles, laws, rules, adhere to justice, to honesty, to bravery, to self reliance
(d) who adhere to some code of conduct, laws

Not for those who;

(a) want to go with the flow
(b) voluntarily throw away their freedom
(c) voluntarily accept slavery
(d) don't adhere to principles, laws, norms of justice
(e) don't adhere to any code of conduct, any laws
(g) sideline honesty, submission to justice, bravery, 'self reliance'

Posted 2 years ago on 18 Mar 2010 19:36 #