Gods words eternal ? or subject to time ? (non religious topic)

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Gods words eternal ? or subject to time ? (non religious topic)

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mulla1
blocked

Gods word "quran" is it eternal and unchanging like God ?

or

it is God's speech in time, subject to "interpretation" according to the "conditions" of human existence ?

Mulla!

"please answer in one line"

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 2:11 #
shahzad1924
member

the two options you gave are very vague. so, IMHO there is no one-liner answer to the question you have put forward.

what exactly do you mean by the Quran being eternal and unchanging?

what exactly do you mean by the Quran being subject to interpretation?

and what exactly do you mean by conditions of human existence?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 2:25 #
mulla1
blocked

Eternal meaning that it does not change....! neither in its text or in its meanings......for example it says kill the non muslims, so if we are not killing the non muslims as the quran says are we being good muslims ?

Interpretation means: Rasool Allah said Quran has 7 layers of meanings....so if we do not search the other 6 meanings are we doing justice to the Quran ?

conditions of human existance : means societal attitude about cultural contexts....like women leaders etc ...

so does it not change or does it allow us the prophetic freedom to adhere to the divine wisdom according to the times as it is evident from the history of prophethood!

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 2:43 #
zia m
Member

I agree with Mutazili "created word of God"

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 3:15 #
NNL
member

Noorani Mulla wrote:
Gods word "quran" is it eternal and unchanging like God

Your question can easily be answered by your Question.

IF you BELIEVE GOD IS ETERNAL and Unchanging Therefore HIS SPEECH AND HIS WORDS ARE ALSO ETERNAL AND UNCHANGING.

You seem to be very confused about God and His Attributes.

About those seven layers do you have some reference regading that Statement from Rasool Allah. How did it come to you and since you dont believe in Ahadith and believe them to be inventions of humans then how can you convince us that what you are presenting is authentic ?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 3:32 #
Anonymous

Here is my one line answer:

BS,Crap,Wasteful,Non-sense,meaningless,distracting,non-serious

These are my thoughts on this thread and the topic.
I dont understand how it solves any problem in Pakistan but this is a public forum and anyone can start any post he/she likes.

Sorry Nafs, but I am very frustrated on pkpolitics becoming pkreligion and all these useless posts and threads we are seeing in past one week or so.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 3:33 #
mulla1
blocked

i "believe" that u, nnl, are not very deep rooted in theology and its practical approach in human progress...

believe is always confusing...

but what is "your" personal opinion should not be pushed down on the public in the name of God....

give me an answer...if Quran is eternal in its shape and form, then what kinda joke was Torah and Injeel ?

if the human element distorted them....and a new version was needed "according" to the context of mecca society...so what is the "interpretation" for us....in our "context"....

From studying quran in depth I conclude that its real message is to "celebrate God in all contexts and all times, based on universal truths of peace, love, kindness and structural unity"......that's what I think is the interpretation which is eternal and unchanging but "re freshening" is needed.....as the human element distorts it always!

so make clear what you mean by "belief"...Africans in jungles would believe a tv "remote controller" to a holy object! and my question is is it ?

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 3:42 #
mulla1
blocked

obaid sab:

thanks for your kind words and I get your message. You are totally free to stay focused on other issues which you cannot solve and only pretend to solve from far away...

its ok, the connection of such a topic on this citizens forum might be seen later on and not right away....so its ok...

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 3:44 #
mulla1
blocked

zia m:

What is "mutazli"....please explain as many of the members here might not have complete, i repeat complete info on this ...

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 3:45 #
zia m
Member

Mulla,
I think it would be better if they google it. :)

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 3:50 #
mulla1
blocked

hehe...

are you shying away from "educating us"... :)

please do not worry about "labels" from munafiqeen......even our holy prophet was "labeled" by the elders of the current munafiqeen ....but did he give a dime ?

yes googling would be a good idea but what if the website explaining the reality of the "mu-taz-la" is done by enemies of Allah ?

so this forum provides scholars like you, scholars with independent thought to bring forth the new and fresh thinking about our holy religion...

so please do help us in learning cause the danger of a website by the enemies of peace can cause sever damage ....

a new era of re propagation of the hidden truths of the society of Muhammad is under way..be a part of it....

and only our unity will destroy the munafiq!

only ittihad!

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:00 #
NNL
member

Mulla! i think your sense of theology is very twisted and you mostly speak out of an drug induced mind numbing feeling.

It was people like you who took Torah and Injeel as a joke and changed it. Therefore Quran which came as the last addition and final word has been promised to be preserved till the End of Times.

Its people like you who like to force their own hawa and nafs likenesses on others and claim it religion cos you or someone you know had a drug induced high and was talking to God and had the same "energy" something His Rasool Sallaho alahi Wasallam never claimed to have.

Your or MY or Anyone Else's for that matter interpretation isnt valid if differs with the interpretation of the Rasool Allah sallaho alahi wasallam.

As for what i believe, my belief Allah's Word is Eternal and unchanging and so is HIS Rasool's word for its the only path to salvation. And instead of putting words in Allah's Mouth or giving different interpretation to Allah's Word which isnt intended by Allah Subhanhu Wa Taala i believe the literal understanding and the added guidance of the Rasool Allah sallaho alahi wasallam.

As for Mutazilites lol funny blokes the ones who were casted out of the Sunnah by 99% of scholars throughout the Islamic history, they had no one to listen to them except of some really stoned Shias hence the 12er Imam concept is that what you are refering to ?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:10 #
zia m
Member

Wiki is a great project,only the best source prevails.More over i think you are very wise i will accept your opinion.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:12 #
zia m
Member

@NNL
Is it possible to change word of God or Yahweh?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:15 #
mulla1
blocked

NNL:

Jazak Allah for casting a doubtfull eye on my abilities in theology, I was quite correct in assuming that your own abilities are not much cultivated in this grave matter, and you have chosen the path of the village molvi so its ok if you do not get involved into such serious matters...

totally fine with your "opinion" as it is very simple and impractical ....so i am cool with it...

and by the way I do not do any form of drugs other then the "Allah Allah"....hehehehe

you are free to label me any label you can think of.......any label is good with me.........

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:17 #
mulla1
blocked

zia m:
once an army officer from pakistan working in pentagon on a two year deputation in DC said, mulla, if you were in pakistan you would have made a good senator .... I asked, will i have to give a lot of bribes and take a lot of bribes, he laughed he said YES....and I said NO...

a few years later when my wife drove me nuts for buying a new house, while i did not have enough savings, she said, if I was "wise" I would have taken that officers offer! hahaha

I guess I am not wise! hehehehe

but please help us to form the second part of the Allam Iqbal's dream! i hope you get my hint ...

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:21 #
NNL
member

Mulla!

Hey like i said you can have whatever opinion of me and i can of you it dont matter.

You can have whatever opinion of Deen-e-Islam it dont matter unless its the same opinion of Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi wasallam.

You can call me whatever you wish dont give a damn however my respect for you as person wont change and i wont stoop to your level of absue that you usually infer to others who disagree with you.

For me your still my elder brother whom i respect but heavily disagree in certain matters and agree in certain.

@ Zia
The Word of Allah Subhanhu Wa Taala isnt changeable period.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:23 #
NNL
member

This is the continuation of above post in response to Mulla!

My comments regarding you wont change even though we disagree on a lot of things you are and will be considered by elder brother who is a bit Satanical (to say the very least) but my brother.

I may fight with you or argue with u but at the end of the day we will have a good cup of tea and laugh it off. You are free to hold a grudge if you deem it necessary.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:27 #
shikra
Blocked

The Government of Pakistan put a ban on the Web Site Lalmasjid.com and all the members of that website attacked to acpture Pkpolitics.
I guess JS visualized and anticipated this situation and decided to quit well in time.
These people are very cruel and mad and won't hesitate to kill and burn due to minor differences.
Their language and intentions are very dangerous and inhuman.
I would suggest not to disclose the place of your residence at the forum. They might depute a fanatic to kill any liberal and Secular.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:27 #
mulla1
blocked

NNL:

I make dua that Allah open the latifa called Qalb in your chest!

Then and only then you will "see" otherwise "sigh"....:)

but I am serious, you need to study more .......seriously....

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:27 #
NNL
member

Nooooooorani Mulla!

Read my last 2 posts again please and then do comment.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:29 #
mulla1
blocked

lal masjid is a hindu name ?

lal ? Jawahar lal ?

I studied quran from molana abdualla for only about two weeks and the masjid was never red in 1984 ? but i never asked him the reason of the masjid ...so any guess ?

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:30 #
zia m
Member

Mulla
hahaha....I think we don't believe in reason or logic.Friend of mine tells me we have reasonectomy done soon after we are born.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:30 #
mulla1
blocked

zia m, so you do believe that men think from the "tool" end of their mind ? hahaha

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:32 #
mulla1
blocked

NNL:

many love to you too jigar....apnay jigar hain tuu yaar....

wese sachi sachi das de tere NNL ka matlab kiya hai ....now I am curious after you show me respect and love ....now I am curious....

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:33 #
NNL
member

NNL= National Nightline

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:35 #
mulla1
blocked

hmmm not sure what is National Nightline.....

is it a product from National electronics ? or does it mean something else, I am not able to understand the nightline portion....what does it mean ? and I am serious...

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:37 #
shikra
Blocked

I like this title.
I am thinking to change my ID as International Night and Day Light.
Then I will appear at the Forum as INNDL.
Very good.
Mullah! Do you approve?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:41 #
NNL
member

Nothing bhai Its a name i had seen someplace and i was watching Nightline the news program of ABC Network. I always think that there should be some program in our country like that.

No deep meanings to it boss. Just came to mind when i first made an id on the forum. thats it.

Edit PErsonally i usually take it as New n Lost cos the sea of Knowledge and life is vast. so at times it does feel new and a bit lost.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:42 #
mulla1
blocked

yes, freedom of title is my faith!

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:43 #
mulla1
blocked

ur nick should be "ummati"....it would look cool on you!

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:46 #
talalkhan
Member

All
All of you want to discuss how far the words of God can be retained etc,but i Dont think God ever communicated with human beings.His manifestation is only in hills, rivers ,and in life

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 5:07 #
shahzad1924
member

@Mulla

i know you always want things to be non-religious, but anyway...

any text (Quran and Sunnah) can be either 1)Qatai (definite) and 2)Dhanni (doubtful) in either one or both the 1)Saboot (text) and 2)Dalalah (Meaning).

do you want to move forward with this?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 6:04 #
lota6177
Members

002.106
YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
PICKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?
SHAKIR: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.html

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 8:43 #
IJay
member

bEENAI

ONE MORE THREAD!

Blasphemy law in pakistan sample cases.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 8:47 #
mulla1
blocked

Talal Khan:

lovely comparison of God's creative speech with the nature...I like this idea too....that HIS communication is not merely textual.....and as you said his speech is nature, and what is more profoundly gorgeous than the self of Muhammad!

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 14:39 #
mulla1
blocked

Shahazad sab:

Yes, please lets move forward with your theory plus please add the ayat posted by lota to your points and then lets move forward...shall we ?

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 14:40 #
shahzad1924
member

first of all, this is not my theory. this is the discussion of fiqh (jurisprudence). please dont take my words as it is, and refer to the works of classical scholars for im not an expert in fiqh.

okay, Hukm shar’ai is the speech of the Legislator related to the actions of the servants ('ibaad). It is either conclusively proven (qatai saboot), such as the Qur'an and hadith mutawatir or inconclusively proven (dhanni saboot)such as the non-mutawatir hadith. If it is qatai saboot and its meaning is definitive (qatai dalalah), the hukm will be conclusive. An example of this is the number of all prescribed raka'ah in salat, as they are mentioned in the hadith mutawatir. Likewise, the prohibition of riba, the amputation of the hand of the thief, and the lashing of the **** (adulterer) are conclusive rules whose correctness is definite, where there is only one single conclusively proven opinion.

If the speech of the Legislator is qatai saboot and does not yield a definite meaning (dhanni dalalah), then the included hukm is inconclusive. For example, the ayah related to jizyah in the Qur'an. The ayah is qatai saboot but the meaning is not definite. The Hanafi school stipulated that it be called jizyah and those who are required to pay it must be in a state of humiliation when rendering payment. However, the Shafi'i school did not stipulate calling it jizyah and permitted jizyah to be called double zakah. They did not require for the one paying it to be humiliated, but it is enough to submit to the Islamic rules.

If the speech of the Legislator is dhanni saboot, such as the non-mutawatir hadith, then the hukm included will not be conclusive, regardless of whether the meaning is qatai dalalah or not. For example, fasting six days in Shawwal or the prohibition of leasing agricultural land, both of which are proven through Sunnah.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Aug 2009 1:47 #
IJay
member

Quran is mixture of history commands and guidance(wahi)or direct intervention!

Guidance and command > for every era

some wahis are time specific too!

History> for reference to take ibirat or lesson from the past nations

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Aug 2009 2:07 #
mulla1
blocked

so we all agree that the textual speech is only time specific and the same speech should allow us to adopt to our times ?

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Aug 2009 14:27 #
shahzad1924
member

no, thats a very vague statement.

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Aug 2009 14:30 #
mulla1
blocked

so you do not want to adopt to the TIME...?

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 06 Aug 2009 15:04 #
shahzad1924
member

look, all im saying is that you cannot generalize. it depends on the hukm.

for instance, lets take the example of the hukm that instructs us to prepare the cavalry. in Surah Anfal Allah (SWT) says;

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies..." [8:60]

the hukm here is "turhiboona bihi" i.e. strike terror into the hearts of the enemies. the hukm is not to prepare the steeds of war. and today "turhiboona bihi" cannot be achieved with preparing steeds of war. so, to obey the hukm we have to do something that strikes terror into the hearts of the enemies. and that could be done with preparing a fleet of F22s, Ghauris etc.

but the important thing to note is that the hukm itself gave the illah (reasoning). and if that reason is not being fulfilled, then it can be extended to other realities. but this is not the case with each and every hukm. so, you cant generalize.

i hope you get my point.

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Aug 2009 0:07 #
talalkhan
Member

Mulla!
God's words cannot be so confusing, revengful,venomous,intimidating. God is the Greatest.

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Aug 2009 11:16 #
mulla1
blocked

Talal:

exactly! Gods words cannot be so human! :)

What they actually worship is a model of God...given to them by old jews who converted into Islam when Ali r.a slaughtered 90 of their men in khayber..

People like these are worshiping a faulty model of God's image(no image of God)....they have been given a faulty, fake, hateful and corrupt model and they cling to it as it was an idol....

there are two clear groups among us, one who seek the original God and those who worship idols crafted by convert jews of Medina!

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Aug 2009 14:55 #
mulla1
blocked

Shahzad:

Of course I get the point, and now you are yourself agreeing that its not time boxed, Islam is not time boxed! its not boxed in time, its actually Islam time driven....you yourself proved that horses are a metaphor and modernity is not an enemy of Islam....

Thats all what we are saying too.....

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Aug 2009 14:57 #
NNL
member

modernity is not an enemy of Islam....

Mulla the Modernism that you seek shall never be applied Insha Allah.

Lol i think you have spent your entire energy saying that others are following Jews converts and all the while you are the one who is following the JEw oriented methodology.

Sad isnt it.

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Aug 2009 15:04 #
mulla1
blocked

NNL:

its futile to engage in a conversation with you about deep subjects, you keep hovering at abc level.....so maaf kar yaar!

its not your field so leave it ...why create issues and pretend to be a molvi....

you have already chosen a narrow path and mubarak hoo....we do not care!

your version of Islam is clearly based on the fake textual references crafted by jew converts into islam......thats why the element of ego and hate is the dominant form of you model of God....its clear and evident that you have nothing to do with reality!

lakum deenakum waliya deen!

why argue....

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Aug 2009 15:08 #
NNL
member

lol
Mulla thats the problem with you since you cant abuse me because of the new Code Of Conduct you are actually telling me that its pointless to talk to me .

Lol

I think i finally hit a nerve didnt i lol

I think i have pointed out the various inconsistencies in your statements that you find it hard to propagate your twisted sense of morality and religion something which was foretold to us.

lol funny man funny.

PS wasnt trying to be a molvi thats your job innit.

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Aug 2009 15:13 #
mulla1
blocked

ofcourse i can abuse you, but for what....? what would I get out of abuse....

the point was to "display" limited , very narrow approach of the molvi tabqa, which is more satisfied with their burning killing and hatefullness. Thats what we wanted you to display and once we have seen the real faces of your version of Islam...what is left more to discuss....

our inconsistencies stem from our multi dimensional approach which you the linear and one dimensional educated awam see as a fault...but its not...

our message has been conveyed ! Allah won and the munafiq's lost!

:) hehehe..

Mulla!

Posted 2 years ago on 07 Aug 2009 15:20 #