shimatoree
Member
Imagine you were driving on the motorway and somehow you had a bad accident. You were concious but hurt bad and you have all kinds of concerns wwhile you have pain etc.
Should you be worrying about who is going to pay for your medical treatment if they took you to Hospital ?
And should you be going to a Govt. Hospital where you will be provided with the finest VETERNERY care resrved for cows and horses ?
And if they take you to a private hospital- who should pay for the bills ?
it cant be free in a third world country like ours...
so our family would pay or then friends...but would never ever think of going to a Gov Hospital...its like dying before ur actual time of death comes!
I wish that our healthcare system can be changed as rite now over 90% of Pakistani doctors are abusing (a word my friend HK really loves ;-) ) the health care system. I have over few hundreds of colleagues who are working in pakistan and thats why I know the mental process about their practice.
in present circumstances of fake doctors and untrained nurses .even paid services are quite risky ...
all major hospitals of Karachi has attached horrible stories of their patients who got wrong injections ,wrong arm operated ,2 number bandage caused infection , scissor left in the stomach of the woman get operated and so on so forth .
I agree with RhyMe
It cannot be free because it is very expensive for an over-populated country like ours. Well, I as a Leftie support this free healthcare universal system but unfortunately it is not possible in Pakistan.
Doctors are money making machines and suggest operations for everything. I use contact lenses for distant objects and one of my optometrist cousin in Karachi strongly and repeatedly advised me to have laser eye surgery to correct my myopia. Laser eye surgery is a highly risky operation and may damage eyesight permanently and he remained insistent on such a risky operation merely to make some money. Doctors in Europe and America discourage such operations.
There are numerous stories of doctor’s malpractices and carelessness resulting in deaths and disabilities. Operations for even minor health problems are their favourite activity simply to make more money from the patients.
Beenai,
It's not about fake doctors but it's about the standards of medical education. I am not in touch with the medical education side in pakistan but almost 10 to 15 years ago, the standards were very low. I know consultants surgeons working in Karachi whom I will not trust with my Dog.
Let me tell you another important thing... Stenting which is been used for people with blockages in their heart arteries. According to new research and trials (Google Syntax trial or check this medical paper
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/360/10/961 ) basically it says that people who have more then 2 arteries blocked or people with Diabetes and coronary artery disease SHOULD NOT HAVE STENTS put in but they SHOULD have CABG (CORONARY ARTERY BYPASS GRAFTING also known as bypass in pakistan) Moreover because the companies who are selling these stents give a huge sum to these cardiologists in order to lure them to put stents instead of referring them for bypass. Recently I heard from one of my colleague in Pakistan that the police caught a gang (doctors, pharmaceutical companies reps) who were involved in selling expired stents (they bought these stents in colombia where their expiry dates were changed) I can go on and on about all these famous cardiologists and Surgeons and the private hospital mafia but nothing will change unless all pakistanis get together to change this corrupt system (at least the medical practice)
@sweet truth...
Laser eye surgery is the best suggestion your cousin has made but the only thing you need to make sure is that you get it done in a proper recognized hospital with experienced (preferably foreign qualified as this surgery is only taught in europe and USA and not in pakistan)
If you google laser eye surgery in uk or USA, you will see hundreds of sites as its the most "IN" surgery with excellent results and if someone tells you that you can get blind then kick his **** as realistically, the chance of going blind from laser eye surgery, using today's technology, is about the same as the chance of dying in a plane crash - roughly 1 in 5 million.
Cheers
Again, the minority of one. What a fate! The best doctor I ever came across was a Pathan doctor in Swat. He saved my life, breaking off every so often to go to namaz prayers and then returning to carry on the treatment. What one calls a natural doctor. And he'd never set foot in the West in his life at the time.
And, of course, we can have free health care service in our country, in spite of all said above. We just need to select the model best suited to our needs.
BTW: Some of the worst hospitals in the world are West hospitals, marvellously equipped and trained staff and all, the only thing lacking being a sense of humanity. We've all lost many people to their services. And if you haven't heard of corrupt doctors in the west, all in the pockets of the pharma industry, then you haven't had much contact with them.
KHAN_Sahib
Thanks for your advice, however I am happy with my contact lenses.
@MG
Your West bashing is in full swing.
Lagay raho munna bahi.... LoL
Sweettruth dear, as Super Soldier would say, what is better: west worship or west bashing? And every word I say corresponds absolutely to my own experience of things. Not a word have I made up to support my case.
As long as we look up to the west as the arbitrator of all that's good and right, we're not going to progress. That's all that bothers me. They're busy killing us and still we look up to them. In fact some even argue we deserve everything we are getting. I never liked the west much to start off with. I seriously began to detest them after the firt bombs fell almost ten years ago. But I did begin by saying no one would agree with me.
@MG
Yar MG is this super soldier doosra janam of psycho?
Well it is upto you to call it west bashing or west worshipping. I live in the west and I see it from different perspective.
I disagree with your notion of west killing us. In my view, Americans are killing terrorists who also pose serious danger to our national security. Whether you like west or not is upto you. You have detested them for the last 10 years because of their involvement in Afghanistan. I have been against them for the last 30 years for their involvement in Afghan Fasad of the 1980's. I was the first even in my family (relatives and friends) to oppose American and Pakistani involvement in Afghan circus. People disagreed with me then and called me a Kafir, traitor and God knows what else. I predicted then we were making big mistake and will pay heavy price for our mistakes in the years to come. And today I say my grim warnings and predictions were 100% right.
Please guys discuss healthcare in this thread only. No taliban no Imran Khan no MQM no PPP
How safe is Laser eye surgery?
How can we improve our broken healthcare system?
How can we get rid of imitation drugs from our society?
Are our doctors money making machines?
Why our doctors are not liable for their careless actions?
Suggestions guys... Come on bring good suggestions
shimatoree
Member
I must apologize for straying away from the TOPIC just a tad bit-
The WEST has many things that are good and they have many things that are bad- just like us.
We should adopt what is good and reject what is bad.
gv
Member
it boils down to redistribution of resources - if we have a govt in place which allocates sufficient capital towards health, education and social development we can have some degree of free healthcare.
@wantinsaf (hawkish member of PTI)
Please man only discuss healthcare reforms here in this thread instead of your favourite topic of MQM bashing and Imran glorification.
Some European and Australian Govt spend 25% of their budget on healthcare. Can we?
shimatoree
Member
sweettruth-
How safe is Laser eye surgery? It is relatively safe but there is an incidence of complications and since it involves eyesight- the problems can be serious. Again we must face upto the human dimesion. You have to be VERY careful who do you select as your doctor and his level of competence. Just because someone talks nice does not mean they are good surgeons !
How can we improve our broken healthcare system?
The same way we MUST improve our political system- by getting good honest and ethical people to go in medicine
How can we get rid of imitation drugs from our society?
The govt: has to play it's role which it will not as the politicians are corrupt and can be bought by the drug companies. The punshiment has to be very severe
Are our doctors money making machines?
As a physician you can make a good living but once again it is ethics. They treat people who can pay. They extract a lot of money without doing the work in an honest manner.
Why our doctors are not liable for their careless actions?
They are but the judicial system is broken down and if you take legal action- notonly you have to pay the Lawyers( who charge a lot more) but it goes on for ever and ever.
This problem of liability of doctors is very old. In Iraq of 5000 B.C. the code of Hammurabi dealt with the problem of incompetence and mal-practice in a very severe fashion.
And on this topic my own views are that Medical care should be Free paid for by Income Taxes.
gv
Member
@sweettruth
why not - where there is a will there is a way - if we cut down on defence spending its totally possible..
@shimatoree
Great analysis! I agree with you views and good analysis
We need good people like you in our society to make a difference.
shimatoree
Member
gv:
All the world's money will be insufficient if theft and stealing in healtcare is not tackled. That does not mean that I am against defence spending.
My view is that since we have the Nukes- we do not need an army at all. The Indians will never attack as they know what would happen if they did.
Actually the whole mantra behind the development of the Nukes was that this would reduce defence spending.
Well, I think my cousins in the Army and Airforce like their toys( tanks and F-16s ) and if we took those away- they might bring forth another coup.
gv
Member
@shimatoree
agreed but that is the only way forward and the military needs to be less myopic and more concerned with the long term benefits to the massses.
LiberalKarachi
Member
I think in addition to capitalism, we must adopt many of the elements of socialism. Basic health and education must be free for all. We should therefore incorporate some of the concepts of socialism into our economic model - like Cuba and UK have done.
Sweettruth, thanks for reply. Just one thing: stay away from that Laser eye surgery. Too many ifs and buts involved.
And yes, we should have free health care. We could choose the Swiss model, half income tax and half self-paid on a montly basis to a health insurance company, at least for those who can afford it and premiums never being so high that it makes a whole in your budget.
SugerMint
Member
@ gv: "it boils down to redistribution of resources - if we have a govt in place which allocates sufficient capital towards health, education and social development we can have some degree of free healthcare."
Well put.
It also drill down to individual contribution towards revenue collection (aka taxes). All countries where medical/health care is free, they have a very high tax rate on income. And majority of qualified people pay their taxes.
In a country like Pakistan, this is next to impossible as government does not have enough resources to pick the tab and those who should be contributing in tax net thrive on fact that they do not pay taxes. Just look at the figures our wealthy politicians/businessman/industrialist pay every year.
Shock
Members
The country where most cures of diseases are found is USA. They have market medicine. The money for all the research comes from the insurance companies. And they have the best treatment in the world. I live in Canada, where healthcare is free but you can be waiting for years to get a treatment. The only thing wrong with American system is that it costs a lot. So there isn't a perfect system.
SugerMint
Member
@ Shock: "The money for all the research comes from the insurance companies."
All the R & D comes from pharmaceutical companies not from insurance companies. And health care is not free in USA, either your insurance company pay for it or you pay out of your pocket. If you don't have both, you are at mercy of county hospital who do treatment up to some extent but then you have to pay once you are out. Therefore Obama is pushing for the biggest health care reforms in US history.
On Canadian side, yes its free and you might be waiting long for treatment but only for non-life threatening conditions. If it's an emergency you will jump on top of list. And they treat everyone equal irrespective of ones social status.
Shock
Members
@SugerMint
It's insurance and Phrma companies. Either way you look at it, gov't doesn't pay for ****. I never said Health care is free in America. And Obama is not making any reforms, he is just making a big deal out what he is doing. American system is not the best but they attract the best doctors around the world and they are the only country which does the most R & D on health.
I would just leave the choice of payment on people. If they like insurance companies, they can stick with them. If they want gov't assistance, they can do that.
SugerMint
Member
@ Shock: R&D for pharmaceuticals is not governments portfolio, pharmaceuticals do R&D, patent there findings and make ton of money on their commercial production.
And, about Obama healt care reforms, well goggle is your friend, this is the only achievement historians are counting as his legacy so far under his presidency.
mein bara hokay doctor banon ga aur dukhhi insaniyaat ki khidmat karon ga ...haaan.:):):)
recently a news was telecasted on different news channels about this little girl suffering from a strange eye disease whose parents from a nearby village after borrowing money from ppl there,came to a private hospital in lahore for their girl's treatment but the doctor adviced her a wrong eye drops which further added the pain nd suffering...they showed the video of the girl with a distorted image because her whole face with swollen eyes turned out to be so horrible...so u ppl see even Doctors of Private Hospitals are not trustworthy today...reason is there is no system of checks nd balances in da field of Medicine which could reduce such incidents from occuring...
naseemkhanan
Member
Americans trust their R&D in the medical field so much that a very large percentage ends up using traditional medical products especially from China (TCM),India (AV) etc.
Now why would they do that?
shimatoree
Member
The business of Medicine in the USA is first and foremost a BUSINESS- meaning that the main purpose is to MAKE money.
Once the MBA's took over the administration of the hospitals- any remnant of humane health care went out of the window.
The patient became a commodity and a source of revenue.
Maximization of revenue became the objective.
The Insurance companies became a part of this EXPANSION and GROWTH.
The Hospitals CHEATED the Insurance companies by a continuous purchase of newer technical equipment because they could Charge much more for that.
The Insurance companies did not care- they just increased their Premiums.
The patients did not care- as the Premiums were paid for by their employers.
And I have not even touched on the issue of rampant FRAUD and ABUSE by patients and cotors- yes FRAUD by using the CODING system- thanks to the new technology.
Now the whole system is just about bankrupt.
The employers are refusing to pay for healthcare benefits and that is the reason why Barack Obama is going through the charade of health care reform.
Last but not the least- the doctors are equally to blame because they have joined in the free for all .
Yes the system is working as long as you have someone ELSE pay for it- and thanks to the great Messiayah George W. Bush- all the money has been spent on the Wars and there is no money left except what the Chinese and The Saudis are lending.
Get it.
Yes, thanks. We got it.
Healthcare is multi billion dollar business and growing fast. Medical science has made remarkable advancement in saving lives especially lives of older people. Now older people are living longer. Life expectancy is Japan and Australia is over 80 years. Govt are responsible for providing them care which is a big burden on national budget.
Back to Pakistan situation where it is also a multi billion business. Wealthy people can afford to pay for their treatment; poor people die without treatment. I cannot see any improvement in near future. Corruption is also one of the main reasons as well as shortage of funds. Universal healthcare is impossible in Pakistan. Our defence budget is so big no money is left for medical and education. Simply look at the terrible condition of our public schools. Like poor quality private hospitals, poor quality private schools are providing sub-standard education to our kids.
shimatoree
Member
ST-
Quote
"Medical science has made remarkable advancement in saving lives especially lives of older people. Now older people are living longer. Life expectancy is Japan and Australia is over 80 years. "
Is it long LIFE or prolonging DEATH ?
In these private health care systems- total hip and total knee replacement operations are being done on 80 year olds in Nursing Homes who have been bed ridden for 10 years- just so that the doctors, hospitals and the replacement Joints makers can make bigger and bigger profits.
The entire system is geared towards making PROFIT at any cost.
@shimatoree
Whatever you say; people are living longer even in developing countries. It is due to advancement in medical technology and life saving medicines are easily avaialbe and of course it is not cheap.
Damn you Damn you dont
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