ucsher
Member
Now i know all you religious fanatics would try to come up with all kinds of excuses to refute this argument but I think deep down inside even you know that what i am saying is reality of the day!!
I think after witnessing this Eid farce in Islamic Republic of pakistan, the ages old argument of implementing which brand of shariya should be changed to implementing which eid ;)
lmao!!!
Trust me Involving religion in state matters would just make a laughing stock in the whole wide world!;)
Aqlib
Blocked
well, that's the reason mullahs want to run the state. They want to decide it for everyone...what everyone should be doing
ucsher
Member
waisay its funny how our brothers from frontier (pakhtonkhuwah) are always in the midst of every controversy involving religion and the state!!!
These guys have become so fanatically religious that even their secular parties (like anp) is now meddling in religious affairs ;)
Seriously, I think our pathan brothers have to get rid of this religious fever as soon as possible because if they wont, they would keep playing in the hands of these mullahs who some time get them killed in the name of surreal jehad and some time have them keep only 28 rozay ;) and the irony is that some how these mullahs convince them that whatever they are doing is in the name of religion ;)
Frankly speaking why the ruyat-e-hilal committee cannot come to terms to use modern/scientific means available to establish confirmed moon sightings? When they can use watches/clocks to establish prayer timings instead of relying on the sun like in earlier times; have no qualms using electronic calenders, clocks with alarms presets playing prerecorded adhans according to adhan timings, listen to/refer from Quran available in Cds/DVDs.
What if due to cloud cover in one area moon sighting is not possible while in an adjoining area it is observed and witnessed.
The time difference between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan is a few hours, than why we celebrate/observe occassions like Eids a full day after such occassions are declared in Saudi Arabia.
Conservative Alam-e-Deens have to be flexible with changing times and utilize modern/scientific means with open minds.
Adonis
Member
Actually, the national ruyat-i-hilal committee relies extensively on scientific means and also includes met department and supparco experts.
In fact the committee refused to accept the alleged moonsighting witnesses from charsadda for start of ramzan exactly because scientists had given opinion that the only place in Pakistan where there was a very remote chance of moon sighting was the coastal strip of Baluchistan.
It was the maulvis & ANP minsiters of peshawar who refused to accept the scientific evidence saying that science had no place in an issue of shariah.
'science had no place in an issue of shariah.' is the typical mindset of our conservative Ullama-e-Deen that at times prevents Muslims to adopt modern/scientific means that are not in clash with Islam at all.
shahzad1924
member
@ucsher, nice to see you after such a long time. i believe you got released yesterday :P (just kidding BTW)
first of all, Pakistan is not an Islamic state, so your argument does not hold any ground. but anyway, when all Muslims countries were under one single leadership, they used to have one Ramadhan and one eid. there root cause of not having one eid is the absence of Islam in our systems and not the other way round.
ucsher
Member
@Semriza
As for science, so did you know if there was one area in the whole pakistan where according to scientific studies it was almost impossible to sight the moon (since it had only taken moon two minutes to set after the sunset there)then it was this whole belt of pakhtoonkhuwa!!!!
and guess what they were the only honest muslims who sighted the moon at a point in time when even a religion-less karachite couldn't see it despite the fact that in his area the moon could have been sighted for almost 11 minutes after the sun set!!
So much for all the religious hoopla of our pathan brothers...
Trust me they are all just satisfying their "sensitive" egos in the name of religion ;)
netengr
blocked
This is not the issue of Islamic or non islamic state .
declaring the moon the government responsibility and 99 % people trust on them ,This is the best way to avoid confusion there should be a law if any one goes against the government decision will be punished then you will see there would be no such issue .
Fahim23
Member
@uscher
I believe the attitudes that we have...probably even in Heaven we won't be satisfied and united cuz of them. And I honestly think I am not exaggerating.
ucsher
Member
@shahzaad
so now you not only want a religious pakistan but the khilafah to be revived?? ..I tell you what ..dream on!!!
I feel pity for guys like you when you after witnessing all that happened to khilafah, the ussr or our own east/west pakistan for that matter still dream about things that have already proven to be a failure ;)
and btw pakistan may not be an ideal Islamic state in all aspects of life but the very fact that it has a ruet-e-hilal organization should have taken care of all the issues with the sighting of moon..But once again the fact that these were the most religious guys of frontier who started having problems with the state governed ruet-e-hilal organization just goes to show that our religion has got so many different schools of thought that it is almost impossible to run a state comprising of tens of thousands of people!
Aziz kakar
Member
yaha
NWFP : ANP Ghadar, ab Moulvi bi Ghadar.
Sinda: Sindi Ghadar, Muhajar Ghadar.
Balochistan: Baloch Ghadar, Pashtoon Ghadar.
Is Molak ma rahna hay to jo punjabi kahay ga wo accept karana paray ga. kewkay Mufti Muneeb Punjapi hay. warna Ghadari ka tappa lag jai ga
baba_ji
Member
Aziz kakar
Why r u spreading hatred.Eid has been celebrated in Gulberg Lahore too. Why you have vented out frustration against Punjab?many Punjabis have said on channels that Munib ur rehman should have agreed with witnesses in NWFP.All sick minds should go for dry cleaning.
Shehzad1924
......but anyway, when all Muslims countries were under one single leadership, they used to have one Ramadhan and one eid......
If we take your words, it means that sighting of moon at some one agreed place (say, Saudi Arabia) was sufficient have eid on one day for the entire Muslims world over.
So why should we all not agree that we all celebrate eid on the day moon is sighted in Saudi Arabia? Why should Mufti Muneeb dispute it? After all our spiritual values emanate from that holy land.
The convincing stance of the Pukhtoonkhwa is also the same and is a good majority of people in other provinces also agree on that.
What I feel is that this issue of two or even three eids is only because of obstinacy of mullas to have grip over the masses by demonstrating misuse of authority. If we decide, once for all, to act on sighting of moon as in Saudi Arabia, this issue will be resolved for ever and no one will be able to ridicule Muslims, at least on this issue.
yahya
Member
"when all Muslims countries were under one single leadership, they used to have one Ramadhan and one eid"
Did they have telephone in those days too, to communicate sighting of moon all over Muslim world?
shriq
Member
If our ulama read ayah 38 and 39 of Surah Yasin, they would understand that Allah has fixed the paths of the sun and moon. These heavenly bodies do not alter their paths (as per Quran), so the scientist can tell us on what day, moon shall be at certain degree to be visible to human eye in an area, and hence can decide the days of Islamic months even for centuries to come.
The ruyat e hilal committees ulama would never tell you the meanings of these two ayahas. They want their salaries that they get from government.
Greed everywhere is the killer of logic and innocence.
Aqlib
Blocked
"at times prevents Muslims to adopt modern/scientific means that are not in clash with Islam at all. "
So who decides what's in conflict or not then? I thought you believed all science was already included in holy quran so why do we need science??? There must be a method in quran or hadith for such an import issue of determining exactly when is eid
Aqlib
Blocked
ruet-e-hilal organization's primary goal should be to decide when is eid. If the nature decides that eid be on different days in different parts then ruet-e-hilal should respect that. It seems their primary goal is to promote national unity, which is not required from a religious organization like that.
netengr
blocked
Even the meteorologist said that this was not possible to see the moon on Saturday in any part of Pakistan ,Sunday was the chance and the mooon was seen .
Masjid Qasim molvies challenged the writ of the state ,should be arrested
A govrnment servant's statement cannot be trusted as he will only say according to the policy of the government.
netengr
blocked
What will government archive to change the Eid day ? this is the sick physic to doubt every decision of the government .
shahzad1924
member
@shriq
"If our ulama read ayah 38 and 39 of Surah Yasin, they would understand that Allah has fixed the paths of the sun and moon. These heavenly bodies do not alter their paths (as per Quran), so the scientist can tell us on what day, moon shall be at certain degree to be visible to human eye in an area, and hence can decide the days of Islamic months even for centuries to come."
yes, but the hukm for ramadhan and shawwal is "to sight" the moon.
shriq
Member
I agree that it is sighting of the moon. Islam allows to trust reliable "SHAHADA" to decide the sighting or otherwise of moon. What can be more reliable "SHAHADA" than proven scientific methods?
In times of Prophet (pbuh), binoculars (or telescope) were not there, our uluama have been using it for help in sighting. So why not from the fact which is being pointed in Surah Yasin itself? The fixed path!!! And science of astronomy has advanced much beyond watching stars/moon with the help of binoculars or telescope! Let's take help from it!
shahzad1924
member
the hukm is "sighting"!
if the moon is being "sighted" by whatever scientific methods, than there is no problem. but if there is no "sighting", that's actually going against the hukm.
http://islamicsystem.blogspot.com/2006/09/obligation-of-beginning-of-ramadhan.html
shriq
Member
Thanks for clearing my doubt here.
yes I agree sighting can be by any scientific means.
Wat a silly n immature heading of this thread!
yahya,
"
"when all Muslims countries were under one single leadership, they used to have one Ramadhan and one eid"
Did they have telephone in those days too, to communicate sighting of moon all over Muslim world?
"
Its a test case for Shahzad now. If he doesn't answer that how sighting of moon was done in those was central and who the news was giving to far off areas,its established that he is a liar.
AsifK
......Its a test case for Shahzad now. If he doesn't answer that how sighting of moon was done in those was central and who the news was giving to far off areas,its established that he is a liar......
To lie for the sake of Ghalba-e-Islam is permitted, perhaps.
I get this feeling in such posts.
shahzad1924
member
"Did they have telephone in those days too, to communicate sighting of moon all over Muslim world?"
i thought the discussion was about this era. please dont try to take us back in time. your beloved Musharraf, Zardari and the rest of his democracy loving mates have already done enough damage.
Adonis
Member
Its amazing to read that some **** is calling Mufti Muneeb a punjabi. Some sick minds can never shed their biases. Similarly, the porn king of peshawar, Basheer Bilour was also saying that Mufti Muneeb has become only the Chairman of Punjab Ruyyat committe.
Apparently these idiots have no idea that Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman is himself from NWFP and is permanently settled in Karachi.
amin1924
member
I don't think it is about mufti muneeb sahib or mufti x or mufti y. Also I don't think it is about chairman's place of origin or belonging of any particular school of thinking.
he is an employee of govt and will follow direction and policy given by federal govt. you will get same result even if you change faces.
i saw on tv how he rejected ulama's request to consider witnesses by saying that go and start your own month. issue is political and not religious, they can resolve it in one hour if they want too!!
but then you know this 'good' for healthy democracy to try to implant rifts and crisis through these controversies! How can they let people be united on anything!
Asli Moulana
Blocked
i think its also religious too.
The issue of Mufti Muneeb brings in controversy cause of his "brelvism' rather than anything else.
Sometimes you can observe the muftis giving edicts based on their sectarian background rather than on fiqhi basis.
Moulana.
amin1924
member
Asli Moulana,
Brother, I understand. But you know federal govt can resolve the issue very easily if they want to. Secondly here with mixed lot of islam bashers and atheist i purposely want to avoid certain things.
Regards
Asli Moulana
Blocked
Got it!!!
Moulana!
Adonis
Member
If popalzai and ANP people are so much against using scientific evidence for moon sighting, why do they use watches for prayer timings.
Instead of looking at their watches, they should use threads to see if it is visible in the darkness to determine Fajar time or should look at the sky to see if sun had crossed nisf un nahar to see if it is time to pray zuhar.
It is absolutely mind boggling to see these block heads insisting that their so called sightings should be accepted even in view of the overwhelming scientific evidence to the opposite.
And this is certainly not a deobandi barelvi issue because this popaalzai idiot has always differed with Central ruyyiat commitee even when it was headed by deobandi maulvis like Maulana Abdullah.
amin1924
member
Adonis,
First of all try to control your 'fingers', I understand you are full of emotions, but try to keep your cool.
What made you say that ANP & Local Committee are against scientific evidence?
What do you know about moon sighting issue? Care to tell about global moon sighting reality for this year?
Adonis
Member
If you do not know anything about moon birt, latitudes and longitudes etc., and dont want to trust pakistan's met department, then there are websites like moonsighting.com available for laymen like you.
And no, these websites are international and not work of "Punjabi establishment" out to deprive some "knuckleheads" in NWFP from their right to see the moon even when it is not born !!!!
amin1924
member
Again, sheer arrogance and scorn on fellow members -thanks.
You haven't answered my questions, try again and please this time don't be rude.
These are important questions and hopefully will lead to the main answer. I need your understanding and your answers, don't want google responses.
Adonis
Member
I told you before that I cannot teach "buddhay totay" and I have no cure for your lack of comprehension of simple english.
amin1924
member
Adonis,
You are just a very disrespectful person, you keep on disrespecting fellow members, perhaps your habit that you can't change. No one can cure your habit of exhibiting ill but yourself.
But I will not indulge in similar disrespect and part ways by saying -salama
amin1924
member
Regarding original question:
How Can a religion whose followers can't agree on one Eid can run a State?
The question is how can a religion run a state? Author is questioning religion's ability to run a state? What kind of a bogus question is that?
Adonis
Member
"You are just a very disrespectful person ....."
-----------------------------------------------------
I do respect those who are respectable. I just dont suffer fools gladly.
shahzad1924
member
Adonis you are just running away from questions posed by a member of the forum which is just indicative of the strength of the arguments that you have. the fact of the matter is that you have not understood this issue from its root cause and you are just reacting to what you are seeing on the media.
Adonis
Member
Subhanallah !!!!
I used to think that HT did have some sensible people. Perhaps I was wrong.
amin1924
member
A member wrote "I do respect those who are respectable", contradictions to his statement are plenty!
He abuses fellow members by calling them names when they ask simple questions that expose his fallacies.
ucsher
Member
@jjkhan
I am questioning religion's ability to run the state because no matter how nice, clear and vivid rules for governing a state are written in a religion, at the end of the day, its that religion's followers attitude that decides if that religion is able to implement its authority or not
But having said that, over a period of time, wise men in various parts of the world have realized it very well that since all religion basically get their strengths from their followers emotional attachment, so there is no way that any valid and logical point (which apparently is going against a religious community) could prove its worth in front of religious people and could convince them otherwise, once they have decided to oppose it.
..and that's what is clearly obvious from the recent eid fiasco...i mean we all know that scientifically it was almost impossible to sight the moon in pakistan generally and in Nwfp particularly, yet isn't it ironic that when in karachi (where the moon could have been sighted for almost 11 minutes after the sun-set) no body (including pathans and anp followers) could sight the moon, yet for some "holy" & "saudi" reason, in Nwfp, a "Toola-e-ghafeer" didn't come across any problem in sighting the moon despite the fact that it would have set there only after 2 minutes of the sunset;)
Now what does this whole thing show?..In my opinion it just shows that once you give your aims a religious touch, neither an established ruet-e-hilal organization nor science or logic for that matter could convince you otherwise
so moral of the story: As long as religion would keep ruling the roost in our state affairs, some time there would be differences on different brands of shariya and sometimes we wouldn't even be able to agree on eids!
amin1924
member
ucsher,
I don't think people of your thinking will term muslims a united ummah if for example federal govt resolves the issue by taking into consideration the witnesses of north west. We can easily have eid on same day if fed govt desires so, but that wouldn't happen because these kinds of issues serve as fuel to arguments of secular liberals.
As far as science is considered there are numerous scientific methods with difference of opinion among various methodologies, but you never said once that these scientists are so divided and can not agree on one method so how can we adopt scientific approach and that science has FAILED, huh?
ucsher
Member
@jj khan
1-who is asking for a science rule anyway?, I am just asking for a secular rule where if any one wants to follow saudia, timbaktu, or even a lala-land for that matter, he/ she does it without becoming a laughing stock for the whole wide world by sighting an imaginary moon ;)..and where even if there is some opportunist ruet-e-hilal organization , it is only followed by people who really want to follow it and that it doesn't has the audacity of portraying those who don't wanna follow it as traitors.
But having said that, since you are the one here who are trying to commit the repeated mistake of comparing science with religion so let me tell you a couple of more things ...
2-The methods of predicting the position of moon are tried and tested and hardly controversial for any one, as far as i know
3-Yes there are a many controversial issues in science but the beauty of science is that it never claims to be perfect or a doctrine of one's salvation, neither it has any hidden agenda of reigning over people's life by telling them that it is their sole savior (which i am afraid is the case with almost all the religions in the world!)
4-Science's worth has been proven by its precession, not by preaching ;)
5-lastly, Science isn't an attention seeker like many religions who would scare you to your death by coming up with all the those surreal scenarios of here after just to ensure that they are the center of your universe till you die...Science, on the other hand, just tries to explain you different things and doesn't give a damn if you don't follow them.
amin1924
member
ucsher said:
...trying to commit the repeated mistake of comparing science with religion...
Perhaps totally misunderstood my point and went into an irrelevant discussion.
Your point 1 is related with the discussion so I'll share my views on it and ignore the rest.
You clearly stated your position by saying that you want secular way of life where guidance from Allah swt has strict limitations when comes to application in a society.
Actually you want to use this example to impose your way of life on people who believe that Allah swt's guidance can not be locked in certain boundary. That is the actual point and that is where you lose because up until now people believe in Allah and believe the application of deen should be everywhere. This difference on sighting or other matters is trivial and can be resolved in matter of hours if sought for!
zia m
Member
I'm all for separation of religion and state.People should have the right to celebrate their religious holidays whatever day they like.
Orthodox Christians have x-mass and easter on different days than the rest of Christians.
State should not interfere in religious matters.
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