PKPolitics Discuss » Social and Cultural Issues

HOW TO RESPOND TO THE PROPAGANDA ATTACK ON ISLAM AND SHARI’AH:

(84 posts)
  1. Revivalist
    member

    The world's press of late has been full of coverage about the speech made by the British Anglican Archbishop where he spoke about the adoption of some aspects of Shari'ah law in Britain for Muslim minorities. This speech lead to a barrage of insults and attacks upon the Islamic Shari'ah, which placed many Muslims in Britain on the defensive. With the intense debate and discussion about Shari'ah, some of the Muslims have found it safer to defend Islam by distancing themselves from the rules of Islam or calling for an interpretation of Islam based upon Western standards. This article, adapted from the book 'A Warm Call from Hizb ut-Tahrir to the Muslims' addresses the age old intellectual onslaught on Islam and the need for Muslims to respond to this attack by displaying how Islam is in fact the solution to all human problems and at the same time challenging the Western ideology and its failure.

    The struggle between the Islamic Ummah as one Ummah and the Kuffar as peoples and nations continued for thirteen consecutive centuries. The conflict between Islam as a Deen, her unique way of life and Kufr also continued throughout these past thirteen centuries. At the advent of the thirteenth century (nineteenth century CE), the Capitalist system, which is a system of Kufr, challenged the system of Islam in its thoughts and emotions. It was but a short round before the Muslims fell defeated. It was an intellectual blow that was followed by the destructive political subjugation.

    However, Islam was not truly defeated and it will never be defeated, because it and it alone is the truth. How is it that Islam remains in the arena of conflict whilst its followers were defeated and they did not realise its position in the struggle? As for this challenge to Islam’s thoughts, it took place by attacking the Islamic thoughts through bringing extensive criticism and falsification against them. The Kafir nations confronted the ummah demanding solutions for new and diverse problems: Demanding their rules (Ahkaam) and the manner in which they would be solved. The position of the Muslims as regards to these two issues was one of utter weakness. They tried to retaliate but with failed and twisted attempts. The Muslims were demoralised which led to indifference.

    A glaring challenge was thrown down to Islam by the systematic assault on its thoughts, rules and emotions. It would be natural, even inevitable, that the Muslims should have accepted this challenge, and plunged themselves into the intellectual battlefield with the Kuffar. It was rather obligatory on them to carry the initiative against Kufr and the Kuffar, because they are Da’wah carriers and people who convey a Message. However, the reality was that the Muslims weakened before the challenge in a manner that incited derision and ridicule of them, and covered them with shame and humiliation. So they came up with excuses for Islam regarding its rules on polygamy. They began to defend it by saying that polygamy can take place only in a situation of justice. They avoided the fact that Islam allows divorce and said that it does not allow it except within certain conditions. They accepted the accusations against the Islamic Khilafah and were silent over it, and they tried at the end of the Ottoman era to change its system. After its destruction, they avoided mentioning it or did not find the courage to mention it in public. They retreated concerning the issue of Jihad, and considered it an accusation thrown on Islam. So they responded to this accusation by saying Jihad is defensive war and not offensive.

    In this manner they consented to what the Kuffar said and allowed Islam to stand accused. They proceeded to defend Islam in a way that can only be interpreted as a shocking defeat in the confrontation against the Kuffar. A direct consequence of this humiliation was that all the rules under attack were abandoned and the rules and thoughts of Capitalism took their place. As for the new issues and the problems that only occur in the Capitalist society, they interpreted Islam and distorted it in relation to them. They said that Islam holds the opinion of al-Massalih al-Mursalah (unqualified interests), thus the law of Allah agrees with man’s interests. They said that wisdom (al-Hikmah) is the lost property of the believer and he should take it wherever he finds it. Based on this, an attempt was made to reconcile the solution brought by the Capitalist system with Islam. They adopted it as Islam but Islam is immiscible with such ideas.

    Studying Islam as a solution to problems
    They did not study problems in order to derive solutions or to study the rules in the Kitab and Sunnah. Rather they adopted the West’s solutions to these problems wholeheartedly. Muslims then accepted them as Islamic solutions on the basis that Islam does not forbid them. Some adopted them on the basis of the opinion of al-Masaalih al-Mursalah as held by certain Imams, and not according to what the Qur’an and Hadith had brought. The Capitalist rules were therefore introduced by claiming them to be from Islam. It was inevitable that the laws in society and the societal transactions (Mu’amalat) of the Muslims would proceed without any regard for whether they were Islamic or not. Thus the Capitalist rules became established and Islam was forgotten. This facilitated the changing of the common emotions as long as it was easy to change the thoughts. Thus aversion to the strict adherence to the rules of Islam became widespread because the people considered it as religious fanaticism. Then the aversion moved to encompass the discrimination between the Muslims and the Kuffar, and between Islam and other religions. The concept of ‘nationalism’ came to stir the emotions and the Islamic zeal was buried. Thus, showing anger towards any attack on the Qur’an came to be seen as a sign of backwardness and decline. This is because, in their view, this assault constituted impartial scholarly research. With this the Islamic sentiments were wiped out. Nothing remained of the Islamic emotions except the priestly emotions, the emotions of worship. This was the shocking defeat that the Muslims faced before the Capitalist system’s contest with Islam.

    As for the thoughts of Islam being the only true and correct thoughts, and the Capitalist aggressor’s thoughts being false and untrue, this is proven from the reality of the thoughts themselves. Thus, the Capitalist thoughts that consider polygamy a mistake, while considering it correct to restrict the man to one wife, are solutions applied to the reality of the human being and not some logical hypotheses. So where exists a society in the world, in which there is no more than one woman for a man? There is no society in the world where there aren’t at least some men who have more than one wife. However, some of them call their partners mistresses or girlfriends and some of them call them wives. Do the rules allowing polygamy, which leave the choice for a man to practise it or leave it, thus making the second, third or fourth woman a legally recognised wife and not a mistress or girlfriend, do they agree with the natural disposition (FiTrah) of man and address the problem? Or do the rules that prohibit polygamy agree with the natural disposition (FiTrah) of man and solve the problem? This is particularly when they remain silent at having relations with more than a woman illegally,. since it is not allowed more than one. Or is making the living together of spouses one of companionship and choice:

    “either you retain her on reasonable terms or release her with kindness.” [TMQ 2:229].

    He would keep her if living together in a state of happiness for both spouses or he would divorce her if living together is the cause of their misery; does this not accord with the happiness and tranquillity of the spouses? Or does the imposition of a forced life together, even if it causes the worst type of misery, achieve the happiness and tranquillity of the spouses.

    Thus, the issue of explaining the validity of the Islamic Shari’ah and its suitability for people in every age and every generation requires one to ask: Is it revealed from Allah as a Shari’ah for people? Once this issue has been proven, then it is definite that it is the true Shari’ah. This is because one of the attributes of the deity, which is necessitated by the divine power, is to acquire the attribute of absolute perfection and the infallibility from any deficiency. It has been proven that His Law is correct and suitable in the form it has come; and it has also been proven that it has come for all people for all ages and for every generation; He (swt) said:

    “And We have not sent you except to all of mankind” [TMQ 34:28],

    “And Say: O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah” [TMQ 7:158].

    It is inevitable that this Shari’ah should also be a source for thought from which all the human relationships would be deduced. It is also inevitable that it should be wide-ranging, thus including all new and diverse incidents. Then certainly it will be a fertile soil for establishing comprehensive principles and general thoughts. As long as it is for human beings as human beings, then it will undoubtedly solve the problems of all peoples however much they may differ in their nationality or environments. All of this is necessitated by the fact that it is a Shari’ah from Allah (swt), which He has revealed to His Prophet so that he may convey it to the people in order to act upon it. This is the issue regarding the Islamic Shari’ah, which is the speech of the Legislator relating to the actions of the servants, i.e. that it is a solution to all problems, which was revealed by Allah. So when He prohibited usury, one does not ask whether this prohibition is in agreement with the age or not, or whether it agrees with modern civilisation or not. The only thing to be asked is whether this prohibition has been deduced from what was revealed from Allah. If it is from the revelation then it is a correct rule, otherwise it is not. It is incorrect to say that this hinders trade dealings and severs economic relationships with the outside world and makes the country isolated. It is incorrect to say this, because the basis on which the viewpoint of life is established is to make the Shar’a the criterion for actions. Only the Shar’a should judge, i.e. the criterion should only be the Halal and the Haram.

    Therefore anything other than the Shar’a is not considered a criterion and is discarded. Similarly, when Allah (swt) obliges the husband to pay maintenance (nafaqah) to his wife seemingly (Bil-Ma’aroof) even if she is rich, it is wrong to ask whether this obligation is in agreement with the modern age or not. It is wrong to say that the spouses co-operate in life so they must co-operate in the maintenance of the house. Nor is it right to say that the maintenance is for the poor wife and not for the wealthy one. Such questions and statements should not be made. Rather, one should only ask if this obligation has been deduced from what the revelation (wahy) has brought from Allah (swt). If that is the case, then the rule is correct, otherwise it is not. Similarly, Allah permitted the human being to spend his wealth on the permissible things as much as he wants and in whatever way he wants. So for example, a husband might buy his wife jewellery and gems worth half a million dinars; and he might spend one million dinars to set up different playgrounds for his children to play in, he might buy his ten sons seven cars each, so they can use one each day. Since Allah has permitted all this, it should not be said that it contradicts the economic interest or that it disagrees with the interest of the person, or that is not accepted by the mind. That should not be said at all, rather it should only be asked whether this permission has been deduced from what the revelation (wahy) has brought from Allah (swt). If that is so, then the rule is correct and so on and so forth. The fundamental issue is to measure the validity or invalidity of the rule, based on the fact that it is derived from what the revelation (wahy) has brought from Allah (swt). If it has been taken from what the revelation (wahy) has brought then it is valid, otherwise it is not. Any other consideration is of no value whatsoever.

    Adapted from the book A Warm Call from Hizb ut-Tahrir to the Muslims

    Regards

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 12:18 #
  2. talalkhan
    Member

    Allah knows how to protect Islam.You should relax and enjoy.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 14:13 #
  3. Islam never was and never will be in danger. Only Muslims are!

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 14:30 #
  4. shikra
    Blocked

    1. First the preachers of Islam should make their facial appearance lively, pleasant and attractive.
    As most of the religious preachers look very scary, horrible and stinking.
    2. Next they should struggle to vindicate the original status of Islam according to the desires of Allah.
    As right now Islam, due to the negative behavior and attitude of Typical Molvis, has lost its shape and even the Muslims born in Muslims families are getting allergic to word Islam.
    3. Instead of wasting arguments upon declaring Qadyanis, Shias, Sunnis, Wahabis, Liberals, Secularists as Kafir they should come up united to condemn the Terrorists who are killing the innocents through suicide bombing.
    This is the most important factor to re-establish the credibility of the Islamic preachers.
    Otherwise nobody is going to listen their sermon.
    Every new attempt would be a cry of another frog in the same confined Well or stagnant pond.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 14:47 #
  5. @shikra
    Agreed, very well laid down. For No.1 they certainly have to change their mindset, and that is Islam is a Deen, and as followers of Deen happen to be present in almost all parts of the globe, so they may wear dress according to their local traditions. While on the otherhand in India as well as Pakistan our Moulvi Hazra'at scorn at if one is wearing western and offering prayers!

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 15:08 #
  6. NNL
    member

    Mirza Sahib

    regarding clothing effects most will argue on modesty but the question remains

    Which definition of modesty will one follow the Divine Version or One's own version.

    PS Shikra a lot of people are denouncing the terrorists but their voices are not heard all over the world.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 15:12 #
  7. The devine version. Even the jews, and the christian nuns follow that!

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 15:18 #
  8. netengr
    blocked

    The so called Islamic groups has defame Islam more then non Muslims ,they called Jihad and start killing innocent people ,The perception of Sharia is now only taliban sharia ,The concept on Khalifa is now those who can send suicide bombers .

    Still in non muslims they respect religious person which invites people towards faith and better life but todays molvis giving muslims and non mulims nothing but "hatred"

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 15:45 #
  9. Once again, reading all these blogs and wasting my time, I have questions:

    1- Who are these Kuffars or "Kifirs?" What is the definition of Kafir? Because last time I read Qur'an, it defined Kafir as the people who deny the presence of God. The rest was classified as the "People of the Book". So once again, please define Kafir, rewrite your blog, and resubmit it.

    2 - "At the advent of the thirteenth century (nineteenth century CE), the Capitalist system, which is a system of Kufr, challenged the system of Islam in its thoughts and emotions." What does capitalism - a system of economy - has to do with religion. Please compare religion with religion and not religion with a style of economy.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 16:37 #
  10. netengr
    blocked

    @silkccut

    Welcome

    I agree with you

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 16:38 #
  11. sasherwani
    Members

    God will save Islam. We need to save ourselves from evil, disrespect and hatred.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 16:44 #
  12. @sasherwani

    Have you not heard a saying: God only help those who help themselves? I heard it in Kachchi Jamaat...

    Islam could only be saved if we save it by adhering to its core teachings, morals, dogmas, and practices - not by interpreting it the way we like it.

    This is how Christianity and Judaism's downfall started. Now these religions cannot even agree on a book. God has nothing to do with saving religions; especially, Islam. If such was/is the case we would not witness the Exodus of Jewish people from Egypt, the holocaust, the expulsion of Christians from Jerusalem, and most importantly the fall of Islamic Empires as recent as the first World War.

    God only prevails those who are righteous and act righteous whether it be Muslims, Christians, or Jews. My only qualm with such debates is that when it comes to our own downfall we start to say "God will save our religion." Such is not the case, never have, and never will. History has taught us this lesson many times.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 16:57 #
  13. sasherwani
    Members

    Downfall of Christianity and Judaism? Last I heard, 34% of the world's population was Christian growing at a rate of 2.5%

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 17:03 #
  14. @sasherwani

    Correct!!! So guess what, God is saving their religion rather than Islam. What I meant was that 1) this is how Islam came into being, as a continuation of the previous two religions; hence, the downfall 2)I was talking about the past and not the present or future. I wrote "started" which is a past tense. This may conclude as that it never stopped which is not correct and I should've mentioned it. My mistake.

    Your reply also failed to mention that Islam is the fastest growing religion of the world. For reference, please read Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion.

    And yes, Wikipedia is a very credible source. I know so from my past experience. It took me ten days and many fights after the correction on Pakistan's entry was made. The mere change needed was that English and not Urdu is the official language of Pakistan. I had to go to hell and back just to make that change.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 17:24 #
  15. sasherwani
    Members

    Wikipedia is a credible source? Its an online encyclopedia that anyone whose anyone can change. I myself changed many things so many times.. just coz i felt so ;)

    :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 17:38 #
  16. @sasherwani

    Correct once again! You can change entries in Wikipedia the way you like. HOWEVER, I challenge you to go back to the entries where you made changes and see if they are still there. I am 99.9% sure that they have been deleted. If not then you may have presented a credible reference which is traceable and a correct fact.

    I can assure and guarantee you that incorrect entries in Wikipedia do not last more than a day. If you do not believe me, try it and then e-mail me, or leave a post here. silkccut@aol.com. ;)

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 17:45 #
  17. skyfacts
    Blocked

    shikra,
    All your self adopted ideology about Islam is nothing to do with convey your message to others..
    Your base less ideology have between the lines messages against Islam.Good tricky approach......
    The muslims depressingly Impressed by the westren ideas and perspective abt Islam has nothing to do with ISLAM or its ideology..
    We dont need modren technology to spread or invite towards ISLAM.
    Our approach is very geuine to spread ISLAM and we visite personally every non-muslim to invite..
    Again no need to give arguments against this approach as the high rate of conversion to ISLAM round the Globe tells the story of this effective work....
    We are very good have divine's approach to all the issues which you may seem strange but in reality very effective...
    You cannot imagine this approach as you dont have the true sense of ISLAM..
    And pls dont try to create much differences in between different sect's..

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 17:50 #
  18. By the way who said Islam is the righteous religion?

    I am curious... Please do not reply with because Qur'an says so, The Prophet said so, or God say so.

    These are baseless arguments. What I need to know is the proof that Islam is the only correct religion in the world and everyone should be Muslim. Why and why not?

    By the way, I do not also want to read that I am Kaafir and my Pakistani citizenship should be revoked. Just so that you know. I am pretty okay here in America and the matter of my religion is between me and my God. Hence, I do not need Fatwas either.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 18:15 #
  19. shikra
    Blocked

    Skyfacts,
    Nobody is going to listen your sermon if you also behave like those horrible, scary and stinking Molvis.
    Believe it or not.
    The marrow minded champions of Islam have lost their attraction and credibility.
    There is a lot of difference between embaracing Islam and following Islam.
    I remember one of the posts by JS detecting that 90% Muslims are non-practicing.
    Why?
    These Mullas can't understand.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 18:29 #
  20. skyfacts
    Blocked

    I know how efficient i am regarding the matter you pointed out..You are having just bookish stories while i have very practical approach regarding spreading of Islam.
    I know from my previous experience how to tackle different stuff all over the world...
    I have already spend some precious movement with lots pf people turning them to be Muslims and practical muslims..
    90% muslims are non-practical but they face at each and every step filteration process by the nature,tough situations in Life,shocks..
    Your frustration is the bench mark how hard work with best strategy MULLA did in muslims society.....
    So keep it up your frustration, will help me understand the nature and different angles of work performed by Mulla..
    So nice of you......

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 20:07 #
  21. Quranist
    Member

    5.46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

    47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

    48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

    "To each among you have we prescribed a law(Shariah) and an open way(Manhaj)"

    لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا

    This is Shariah law so follow the Gospel and the Quran and the Torah. The Gospel has no communal laws in it since Jesus did not need them at his time, but its still a Shariah for the Quran. Shariah for the Quran is the religious commands found in the scriptures. So follow it and forget the Taliban.

    Posted 2 years ago on 08 Aug 2009 20:22 #
  22. Revivalist
    member

    @silccut

    You said "Islam could only be saved if WE save it by adhering to its core teachings, morals, dogmas, and practices - not by interpreting it the way we like it” and then you said “By the way who said Islam is the righteous religion”? Isn’t it a blatant contradiction which shows your confusion!!!!

    Regards

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 7:41 #
  23. DeadlyHonest
    member

    Different fronts are their to answer questions about ISLAM..
    But when its SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST than Military(JIHAD) defeat plays the final role to establish your writ...
    All over the world Increasing trend in Defence Bughets tells the story of the nations having...And Just when our Prophet SAWW passes away,were three swords hanging their,as compared to just very little other living necessaries....

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 7:52 #
  24. Revivalist
    member

    Honest,

    You are right at times you need to use coercive measure to fix problems.... However in Islam it is not meant to loot and plunders people's resources rather is to take people out from oppression and tyranny!!!

    Regards

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 9:15 #
  25. DeadlyHonest
    member

    Reviv,

    However in Islam it is not meant to loot and plunders people's resources rather is to take people out from oppression and tyranny!!!

    To whome you are reffering to.......???
    BR

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 11:14 #
  26. Revivalist
    member

    Bro Honest,

    To those who dont understand Islam and is attacking it for false reasons or their self ignorence i.e. Shikra and Co!!!

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 11:36 #
  27. @Revivalist

    Thank you for commenting on my posts!

    There were two different posts that you mixed. In one post I suggested that "Islam could only be saved if WE (as Muslims) save it by adhering to its core teachings, morals, dogmas, and practices - not by interpreting it the way we like it.” Which I think you and everyone would agree.

    My second post was a question, “By the way who said Islam is the righteous religion?" Explanation to this is that you and I as Muslims can say all we want that Islam is a righteous and true religion. We say it because we are Muslims and we believe so. However, there are other religions that are just like Islam (I am not saying they are Islam, they are "just like" Islam), so then the question arises what makes Islam a righteous religion? In other words, why everyone should become Muslim? Why we cannot tolerate other religions?

    It was actually a sarcastic question posed towards people who think that they are the only one who are walking on a true path and will go to heaven by doing so. Hence, their arguments requires proof and that is what I was asking for.

    Hope this explains my "contradictions". ;)

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 12:39 #
  28. amin1924
    member

    silkccut

    first you need to educate yourself on difference between a religion & deen (way of life), then come back with your sarcastic/stupid questions :)

    You are 50-60 year old man and haven't sorted out basic thoughts, what have you been doing all your life?? ? besides selling/renting house in f-8/1 ;)

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 12:45 #
  29. LOL, @ JanuJerman:

    Khan Saahib, first of all I am not a 50-60 years old (not even close), but thank you for pointing out my maturity level. In addition, I am very well aware of what I have been doing in my life beside renting/selling my house in F-8/1, and I can assure you that what I have done in my life is way more than you can ever dream of. ;)

    Second and most importantly: "Deen" is an Arabic word that means religion and it also means debt, obligation (word Dana). In Hebrew and Aramaic (from which Arabic is stemmed) Deen means law and justice (word Din). From Middle Persian Deen means revelation, religion (word Den). (Wikipedia.com).

    However, in many cases as you mentioned Deen also means the way of life. Now then the question arises; who and what lays out the path of the way of life. Brother, the short answer is religion. Religion is the entity that lays out the laws, regulations, and path or the way of life. You are trying to differentiate between the law and constitution while forgetting that the law stems from constitution. Religion is the foundation of Din just as the constitution is the foundation of law. So the initial question remains, what makes Islam as a righteous religion.

    Is it merely because WE think so or is there a proof to it? That was my question and you brought in the debate of religion and Deen. Once again this is the problem of us Pakistanis. Either Sawaal Gandum and Jawaab Channa, question in reply to a question, or some snappy remarks to humiliate the questioner.

    Khan Saahib if you do not have the answer to the question then remain quite just like most of the other people have done so, and wait until someone comes back with a correct answer. Okay Billoo?

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 13:29 #
  30. shikra
    Blocked

    Revivalist wrote:
    "To those who dont understand Islam and is attacking it for false reasons or their self ignorence i.e. Shikra and Co!!!"

    There is a lot of difference between a Mullah and Islam.
    Attack on Mullah and Jihalat is not attack on Islam.
    Then Allama Iqbal was the greatest attacker on Islam during the 20th century.
    To expose the hypocrisy and nonsense of a fundamentalist Mullah is a real service to Islam.
    Islam could only flourish and the Muslims could progress where the Institution of Mullah is eliminated.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 13:35 #
  31. @shikra:

    In addition to your post, Islam was not spread by the might of sword, neither it was spread because of the preaching of Mullahs. Islam was spread by the way of Muslims creating examples through their life styles. That is how Islam was spread. Alas, only and only if we wake up and lead the life of peace, harmony and justice.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 13:46 #
  32. NNL
    member

    Shikra

    Iqbal's philosophy flip-flopped during his life. Once he was an extreme liberal and then he was a hardcore Mullah. His swings can be noticed by his poems of different times.

    If you actually attack the Molvi who is spreading truly spreading hate and is seriously working against Islam (not your version of it but Islam the way it was revealed) then i dont think anyone over here or any part of the world will argue with you.

    But usually what happens is that instead of attacking the Mullah you all get yourselves entangled in challenging Islam and its codices and laws wherein lies the problem

    PS I hope you understood my previous post.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 13:48 #
  33. amin1924
    member

    silkccut

    Wasn't that you who was bragged about selling house back in 90s in F-8/1 and then calling himself "elder brother" or you want me to paste the link to the comment that you made, paa jee?

    So it isn't maturity of your thought/mind that lead me to believe you were 50-60 (or close) it was your boastful claim ;)

    Good that you educated yourself on deen through wikipedia, and were kind enough to share the source.

    My understanding is that a religion relies on blind faith, some where at some stage a believer has to stop rational process and say "have faith". On the other hand Allah swt encourages human to think, to ponder upon the creation of this universe so that they reach the rational conclusion of being created by the Creator.

    Islam is right, because there is no contradiction in the core idea (call it aqeedah) and one can lead to the basic idea of Creator without any external help.

    If one reaches to rational conclusion of being created then second stage would be the communication between creator & creation, but that would be advance topic at this stage.

    Please don't be "apnay muh mian mithu" that shows ones shallow & hollow mind. Proof your worth through mind not through boasting. If you have enough of material then say Alhamdulilah, because it is Allah swt who gave and can take back any time :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 13:55 #
  34. @JanuJerman khan
    Welcome to the pkpolitics 'discuss forum'.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 14:20 #
  35. shikra
    Blocked

    To the supporters of Fundamentalism:
    Whatever I write and preach is what I honestly believe and practice.
    1. All my posts and my philosophy is against the reactionary fundamentalists who create unwanted chaos to impose an outdated version of Way of Life, which is never possible.
    2. Irony of the situation is that even the different sects of Mullah are not united upon a single version. Each brand of Mualla's School of Thought differ from each other causing more confusion.
    3. Mullah of Sudan is different from the Mullah of Jordon.
    4. Not only Islam, all of the religions are Deens (Way of Life). 90% of the Holy Quran carries all that was carried by Torah and Bible. (Read all the books keeping them side by side). How comes that Quran became Way of Life and Torah/Bible remained as religious books?
    What about Hinduism, Bhud, and Sikh religions? Don't they teach its followers how to live?
    5. I strongly hold that the Way of Life needs a constant readjustment according to logical changes.
    6. A crown needs modification according to size of the head.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 14:20 #
  36. @revivalist
    The topic of this thread is good but in capitals. Is it possible that you may avoid using all capitals? It doesn't looks nice.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 14:23 #
  37. @JanuJerman Khan

    I was not having "apne muh mian mithu". I was merely replying to your sarcastic post with sarcasm.

    In addition, you mixed my two posts and made it as one. What I said was that I sold my house in 1998 or as you said 90s. The second post was about Niaz Naik. I commented that his elder brother Nazir Naik used to rent our lower portion. This is what poor families in Islamabad do to have some earning. Live in one portion and rent the other. This, however, does not make me old, neither it makes me young. I left Pakistan in 1998 and have not returned since then so, I don;t know what Pakistan looks like, but I know what Pakistan IS like because I read news everyday and get "mustafeed" from the posts on pkpolitics.com.

    Moreover, religion NEVER relies on blind faith; otherwise, we would not see all the Tafaseer, commenteries, and translations of Qur'an and Ahadees. These are the resonings of religions. Why, who, when, and where all are forms of resoning. Muslim and many other non-Muslim SCHOLARS have done so and will be doing it as far as Islam remains alive.

    As far as your rationale conclusion of being created is concerned? Buddhism reached this conclusion a long time before the advent or creation of Islam. As far as the oneness of God is concerned? Pharoe Amenhotep IV declared one God AmenRa as the one God. The religion or terminology now known to us is Atenism. (Wikipedia: Atensim). By the way I can quote from Encyclopedia Britannica, but you would not have access to the website as it is a premium website and we Pakistanis like everything for free. ;)

    Furthermore, Zoroastar also declared God's divinity and called it AhuraMazda. The core teachings of Zoroastarism are the same as Islam, and yet this religion existed some 10,000 years ago. (Wikipedia:Zorostrianism). Therefore, Khan Saahib the relation between creator and created is not merely synonym to Islam. As far as Aqeedah and Islam is concerned then my brother every religion has aqeedah, so what makes Islam greater than any aqeedah based religion? Is it merely because we, as Muslims, think so, or is there any rationale assocaited with it?

    I would love to talk with you on the "advance topics," but please be sure that when you come back with your reply, be opened minded and have facts handy. We are all here to learn. ;)

    Last but not least, Allah can give and take a lot of things that includes knowledge, but we have to be sure to know why it was given to us in the first place and why it is now taken away. The discussion here is not my belief in Allah, which I have, but the discussion is why Islam is right and how come we impose our religion on others by burning Churches and killing non-Muslims. Why do not we MUSLIMS (especially of Pakistan) live and let live our minorities with peace and as described in the constitution of Pakistan and represented on our flag as 1/3rd white patch?

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 14:29 #
  38. amin1924
    member

    Shikra

    my dear reactionary fundamentalist you are so full of contradictions and confusion, how can one respond to your spray of ideas??

    for example you say in your point# 1 that "...create unwanted chaos to impose an outdated version of Way of Life" and then you continue to say that "which is never possible" if something is never happening then why are you wasting your time & effort filling up white space?

    same goes with rest of your post.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 14:36 #
  39. @semirza

    I don't think I started this topic. I think it was posted by someone else. I only use CAPS when I emphasize on a word. I am very rusty on html and forgot how to make words bold or italics on discussion forms. That's all...

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 14:36 #
  40. Revivalist
    member

    Netengr,

    Indeed you have multiple problem syndromes however your main problem is that you hide behind Mullah when it comes to Islam. Islam is a deen an ideology that present a detailed socio-economic and political system and prophet (saw) was the first person who established a society based on the principles he brought and showed the world a glittering example which no human can ever match. In fact you have quite many problems in your basic thinking, you believe in Islam but you negate it in your 2nd post.... Please review all your thoughts and the bases of them and decide what you are and which camp you belongs to???

    Regards

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 14:42 #
  41. amin1924
    member

    silkccut

    before i proceed to respond to your feedback, i like to say that you are a little full of ego or showoff as you keep on assuming things about other side (may be because of my decoy name). why you had to showoff about your membership of an encyclopedia or assume about other person living in Pakistan and looking out for muftas.

    I tell you I left F-8/4 in 1996 and now am still living far far away. May be we went to same school or may be we know each other as you said you are not that old (if in early thirties). I can safely say that I have seen more world, more countries and more places then you (about 20 countries so far) -alhamdulilah

    Secondly I didn't mix two posts, in the same very post where you shared your experience of selling house, you called yourself "Tuada wada bhai" remember? So either you were old enough to sell a house back then or were only assisting your elders.

    Now regarding budha, Amenhotep IV and all realizing the reality of the creator, it is of course possible as I mentioned previously. An independent mind all alone in wild can lead to comprehension of the creator. Allah swt expects every human to rationalize at least this much.

    Our example to live comes from Prophet Muhammad pbuh and his noble companions and we can see how they gave protection to non-muslims for example meaning of a hadith are "a muslim will not be with Rasoolullah if he/she harms a dhimmi". Perhaps a good time you studied concept of dhimmi and their rights in islam.

    You have touched upon two subjects, first imposing of Islam and second rightiousness of Islam. Rightiousness of Islam is conceived because of it's flawless core idea where as you can spot flaws in the core ideas of other faiths and if you question them, you get response of "have faith", "be a believer"

    So once again, our example of impementation of Islam comes directly for life of Muhammad pbup and his noble companions.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 15:13 #
  42. shikra
    Blocked

    JanuJerman Khan wrote:

    "for example you say in your point# 1 that "...create unwanted chaos to impose an outdated version of Way of Life" and then you continue to say that "which is never possible" if something is never happening then why are you wasting your time & effort filling up white space?"

    Mr. Jerman Khan,
    Then ask the soul of Allama Iqbal why he wasted his talent on a constant struggle against Mullah?
    To educate the Mullah towards constructive performance and not to waste time to impose 'an outdated version of Way of Life' 'which is never possible' is a positive and constructive job.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 15:20 #
  43. amin1924
    member

    shikra

    First you are drifting away from the subject, second I have heard for the first time that Iqbal was on a constant struggle against Mullah?? wow this must be a new discovery of 21st century!!

    Last but not least what is your definition of Mullah?

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 15:27 #
  44. shikra
    Blocked

    Mr. JanuJerman Khan,
    I am very much on the track of the of the subject of the thread.
    2. The members and the students at your School of Thought can tell you more about Allama Iqbal.
    3. My definition of Mullah is the same as of Allama Iqbal.
    (I guess you are New at the Forum) All these Topics have been discussed at the Forum in details, since the two years of its life.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 15:45 #
  45. The ideas of Iqbal will be implemented in Pakistan only when we realize that, for the Pakistani Muslims, there is no escape from Islam. Our almost total reliance on the West and our disregard for the imperatives of the Qur’an and Sunnah constitute the primary reason for our spiritual, moral, political, social, economic and, above all, intellectual decadence. A return to Iqbal means a return to the Qur’an and Sunnah, and the Islamization of the Pakistani Constitution will be the first major and decisive step in this direction.

    It would be instructive at this point to analyze the Pakistan Movement. The main motivating force behind the movement for independence was the fear of exploitation and oppression by a Hindu majority, although the current of Islamic revivalism was also a part of this struggle. Promises were made to Almighty Allah that the new and free Muslim homeland will be a model Islamic State. In response, Allah endowed us with Pakistan in a miraculous manner, but the Muslims of Pakistan have so far failed to make it a true Islamic State by implementing the Islamic Order.
    The punishment for not fulfilling a solemn pledge made with Almighty Allah is nifaq or hypocrisy, with which the whole nation is now afflicted on a collective level.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 15:46 #
  46. amin1924
    member

    shikra

    if you have same definitions as Iqbal then do you accept what semirza stated above?

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 15:56 #
  47. zia m
    Member

    @JJKhan,
    Good to see you here...
    Humans are greedy by nature,greed for power and booty is obvious from the early days of Muslim history.Capitalism also has its faults but it does address the greed of human nature.
    We are not living in 7TH century when it was norm to conquer other countries.Americans are dominating through their crporations.We have to come up with a better mouse trap.Khalifa is a fantasy,sooner or later we have to face the reality.A tree is only goining to be known by the fruit it bears.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 16:01 #
  48. shikra
    Blocked

    Mirza Sahib,
    What ever was the motives and circumstances for the division of India and creation of Pakistan, is a very interesting topic to discuss and study.
    I agree that the slogan of Religion was the card used to consolidate the Muslim support to win 1946 Elections.
    But it was never thought and considered that a model Islamic State would be ruled by leaders like Maulana Moudoodi, Osama Bib Laden or Mulla Omer, by pushing the leaders like the Qauid-i-Azam, away.
    It was never expected that in a Model Islamic State,
    1. The Girls Schools would be closed.
    2. Barber's shops and CD stores would be burnt.
    3. Christians would be tortured.
    4. Art, Literature, Entertainment, Music, Sports would be restricted.
    5. Foreign Tourists would be unsafe.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 16:06 #
  49. Yes, the new Muslim home land, and a model State that became Pakistan, the people who have on their agenda No's.1 to 5 should not call themselves citizens of Pakistan.

    I may point out that such pervertions have been planted deep into the minds of (if we are talking about areas called FATA etc)simple but fiercely faithful to Islam by a Mulla who was/is more concerned about his own welfare (halwa manda) than preach the true spirit of Islamic faith to followers of faith who are totally dependent on the Mulla (neem hakim) itself in this regard.

    And this is the outcome if said by Mulla and followed by simple people who have great love of Islam. Dont misunderstand this. For them whatever the Mulla has preached to them is final, however limited, in accordance to the limited knowledge of the Mulla that may be.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 16:31 #
  50. Sahnaz
    Member

    semirza very well said. smtime u really talk in sense. thnx fr nice post

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Aug 2009 16:34 #

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