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Human Engineering and role of Linguistics..by request of Lota!

(49 posts)
  1. A certain field of science called "Human Resources Engineering" is the hidden "backbone" of a nation which comes out of colonial rule....and here I would like to share some of my experiences with this phenomenon but from the narrow yet powerful aspect of "Linguistics" or in normal terms called language....but becarefull...that do not think of this as a hate or anti religion statements as I will expose weakness in our national development theory based on our linguistic policy......language is kept simple so paindu tabqa can also benefit if they think its needed ...

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    To study a nation, and to study a nations group thinking, one can utilize many "topics" of that nation, one can get a good xray or a nation by simply studying their economy, their history by their neighbors, not by themselves as we all know we always glorify ourselves, we can even take up the topic of politics to see the "group mentality" of a nation...but I would like to drag the attention of our scholars, to a rather often ignored topic of "language"......

    as an amatuer archeologist and hobbyist, the most effort we spend on, after digging a in-earth object is to identify any linguistics on it....cause we "know" that the group thinking of a nation is "hidden" in the language skills of this nation...

    for example, lets put the dictionaries of nations together and see who has the most abundant terminology for commerce...guess who stands out ......THE ENGLISH....the nation which lives on an island has the biggest dictionary for commercial terminology......

    then lets see who has the most abundant dictionary for sex....guess who stands out.....ARABS.....they have 90 words to describe reproductive organs...actually more than all other languages combined.....

    then lets see who has war vocabulary......KOREA stands out...

    so on and on....with different varying levels .......

    NOW...having said these opening remarks......lets refocus our attention beam to the society called Pakistan......

    Every person in Pakistan is multi lingual, and ah yes, lets not use the word, "speak" lets use the word "talk" to highlight a point..there is a difference and only over conversation will highlight it...

    normal pakistani "talks" a different way at home then in bazar, then in a office......totally different talk pattern........and to my horror each "talk pattern" is absolutely incomplete!

    His mother dialect, which he never gets educated properly starts getting mixed with a basic level of arabized urdu, then that starts loosing its charm when he hits scientific subjects in school, and that introduces a burden of english which he never ever gets the confidence to speak even if he has been educated in english to a masters level ....(majority observation).......

    and talk about religious coverage of an even forigener languages of arabic on the same psyche .....just see the "incompleteness" ...which is the topic of my talk here.....not the direct impact of a certain language.....but the incompleteness which destroys ones thought.....

    now how does a politican or even anyone, can even begin to organise a nation if the so called public is so "poly-furcated"(i coined this term) in their thought pattern ....?

    do you guys see the point I am making ?

    Mulla!

    This is just an introductory level post I will be revealing more later on ...but try to agree with the point and do not pull the topic apart like hungry hyena's ok ? :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 15:34 #
  2. thank you for opeining the post. Urdu is 70% hindhi this is somehing I learned today. More information in this program.
    http://pkpolitics.com/2009/08/29/choraha-29-august-2009/

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 15:46 #
  3. its not 70% hindi its 99% hindi , cause the persian in it is also etymologically linked to sanskirit ....:)

    plus the word "urdu" is spanish word...used in turkish language..meaning "ranks"...:) many phD's in urdu do not know this......

    the arabic is a later injection into urdu...in Fort william...

    remember, to colonoise a nation one must destroy their original language.....one must destroy their original language in which they could express "freedom" and pain of slavery, but once colonial rule is established and to keep the slaves happy in slavery, you must make them "talk" differently and make them proud of their chains....thats why Fort William played a great deal of role in changing our complete education into a non complete even faulty "thinking"........even though we are the smartest nations on earth! but "we talk in incomplete manners".....

    more to come!

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 15:56 #
  4. I read this "theory" that argued that comparative studies of various hominids show that Neanderthals had a larynx positioned higher in the throat than humans, and as a result lacked the vocal tract anatomy to produce the range of sounds necessary for modern human speech. Home sapiens having a more advanced language and be able to pronounce more complex words conquered them and wiped out the Neanderthals. Can this theory be applied to present generations of mankind because all learning is done by language. What is a good language?

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 16:01 #
  5. part two:

    if we look around carefully and then reflect back onto ourselves we will see that "our incomplete" "talk" is the major trend as a nation...."incomplete".....

    do you understand what i am saying ......look at our history.......we are "incomplete"......

    during a comparative analysis with china, ex urdu-science college professor Dr. Waseem Sajjad identified the hopelessness of this project in early 1995.....

    we saw that Chinese adopted "complete" range ...any nation who has produced scientists from their mother dialect medium of education are those who have "complete" , complete , complete, range of this phenomena implemented...

    this is what we need to understand........but the best is to adopt the "our own"....not outsiders languages....cause the freshness of "thought" is what builds nations....

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 16:15 #
  6. lota/Mulla:

    read the works of Wittgenstein. he's the current leading authority on the philosophy of language, meaning and its usage.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 16:18 #
  7. oriel....

    I am lab worker and a small time participant of linguistics research work for Noam Chomsky....up in boston.....

    we do not need Wittgenstein.....plus we are emerging from colonial rule still.....even though its been 60 years but the framework of our law and ruling structure is still pre industrial....thats why we are a very different yet solvable phenomena!

    and we are an incomplete nation...nothing is every completed in our developmental cycles.....

    but more to come........plus we need "practial application" and we have to modify these wittengsteinish models and frameworks....and I am going to present one if you consider my abilities to be able to do that before the mob starts firing upon me in the name of religion...

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 16:22 #
  8. His work the "Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus" and commentaries upon it will illuminate what you guys are talking about.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 16:23 #
  9. you do need it. once you have understood it, you can communicate it to us minions! ;-)

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 16:24 #
  10. sod the mob. we can ignore. please continue your tractatus.....

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 16:25 #
  11. lota your info is correct, that the early human settlers on this planet did not need "oral language" as a means to communicate, their large minds had a "telepathic" medium of communication ...this is a counter theory.....

    cromagnon which is a later development to whom we call "Adam" did have "oral speech" faculty and was needed to be "programed" for proper usage of it........but lets keep the focus on our issue at this moment...

    so as I was saying that "incomplete" is best what we are as a nation......

    The primer of our society is intentionally broken since colonial times......

    layers upon layers of incomplete thought leads by the moment and subjects one to incomplete thought process which is why our constitution also needs as many amendments, yes man made law needs advancement but this many ?

    guess what.....no one , no one , no one will ever say this in pakistan.....but I must say that I have to say this....

    "WE THE NATION OF PAKISTAN NEEDS TO REMOVE ALL FOREIGN IMPRACTICAL IMPRINTS OF OUR NATIONS COLLECTIVE PSYCHOLOGY OVER THE PERIOD OF NEXT 7 YEARS TO EMERGE OUT AS A WORLD CLASS NATION WITHOUT EXTERNAL HELP IN ALL ASPECTS OF OUR EXISTENCE, THIS INCLUDES, COLONIAL, ECONOMICAL, SOCIAL AND RELIGIOUS EXTERNALITIES"

    try to understand this....

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 16:32 #
  12. amin1924
    member

    Mulla,

    Sorry to disturb your thread, but got question for you.

    You said:

    WE THE NATION OF PAKISTAN NEEDS TO REMOVE ALL FOREIGN IMPRACTICAL IMPRINTS OF OUR NATIONS COLLECTIVE PSYCHOLOGY OVER THE PERIOD OF NEXT 7 YEARS TO EMERGE OUT AS A WORLD CLASS NATION

    But emerge out to what, is their an alternative of our own or where would the alternative come from? We can only reject/eject something if we have some alternate, right?

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 16:49 #
  13. Perhaps our mastery of language is taking us through a fast process of new second evolution. Language is kind of a second genetics. Genetics itself lasted for four billion years of earth. Darwinian evolution gave rise to creatures with big brains which developed a second kind of genetics which is language and transmission of linguistic information through generations. This cultural evolution looks like genetically evolution in a superficial sense but is actually much faster. Our lives have become faster and technology is moving at a pace that we cannot stop. Our ability to communicate transcends the message we are trying to send. Things that took decades now take years and each year that passes the speed increases.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 16:57 #
  14. amin1924
    member

    lota

    Can you also provide the links from where you copied your previous two posts?

    Just a reminder that copying without providing the source is considered plagiarism.

    ;-)

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:02 #
  15. Mulla if you look at the example of social animals they all have call signs or expressions for distress, food, danger, pleasure etc. Social animals who live in groups need to communicate and you dont see telepathy being used in nature.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:03 #
  16. JJkhan The first post was seeing a Neanderthals skull in natural museum of history in NYC and seeing the difference of larynx positioned higher in the throat than humans + doing a search on the web using Neanderthals language. Second post was watching a Canadian program on evolution and a two minute speech by Richard dawkins on language on it.
    http://ebbolles.typepad.com/babels_dawn/2008/03/neanderthals--1.html

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:11 #
  17. amin1924
    member

    But how come you produced same exact text as written in http://sjohn30.tripod.com/id1.html

    Is that a coincidence?

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:12 #
  18. JJkhan The same text is available on wiki also. Do the search with the words I told you and it will come up on that page there are different theories listed and I am using one to make a certain point. Maybe you didn’t notice but I never claimed this is my original research or my words. I am trying to keep the discussion on point instead of providing a page with 6 different theories. I am sure you are aware of the intelligence we are dealing with.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:18 #
  19. amin1924
    member

    lota6177,

    All I ask you is to do the due citation, that's all. I have experienced your google experties and copy/paste artistry (you and I know each other well from main site debates).

    Good luck with your work. I have to go now.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:22 #
  20. lotaji:

    please do not mistake "man" with "animals".....where animals stop, man begins!

    :)

    I like your observation and ignore the hyena for now....do not get engaged in a side topic ok ?

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:24 #
  21. mulla
    It’s hard for me to ignore my respected ancestors. When the story of evolution explains how we got here why go for telepathy?

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:32 #
  22. where animals stop, man begins!
    Right but there is language and morality in animals also. There are Neanderthals graves discovered in France and animals who bury their dead believe in after life. Human graves are discovered over the Neanderthals burials so maybe they got wiped off due to bad language?

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:36 #
  23. we are not sure.....what wiped them out..!

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:43 #
  24. Mulla
    agreed just a theory without proof among many others.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 17:44 #
  25. lets keep the focus at the issue of development of linguistics with our current condition I will write more on the cro magnon...

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 18:00 #
  26. I am out for now will catch up later. Thanks.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 18:10 #
  27. so where were we ?

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 18:11 #
  28. the freshness of "thought" is what builds nations....

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 18:12 #
  29. yes!

    now realizing that when a pre-colonial society is subjected to this "uncomplete-ness" and this "half-complete" core pscyche will never ever produce "complete" success in that "environement" ...and those who can escape this environment and then get planted in other "complete" environments, you will see that they bloom perfectly beneficial socially....well......

    and now the mega million dollar question...."is this "freshness" located in our "original ethnic culture" or is it located in "copying" a forigen "idea" in religion, in social, in governance.....etc ?

    experiments and a 1000 years of history as a proof states that, those nations who have "removed" the "external" elements from their collective psychology have been the greatest to survive and called "civilizations" meaning who were able to "export" their ideas out to the others for following!

    we have to "get-back-to-pre-english-arabic" roots.....thats the million dollar question.....can we ?

    remember the statement: to make eternal slaves, make the slaves proud of their "chains"...........
    language is the tool..
    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 18:19 #
  30. baba_ji
    Member

    Some people are of the opinion that urdu or punjabi languages could have developed more if we had adopted Dewnagri script. In arabic the zabar,zer,jazam are very significant and bit of carelessness can change the meaning drastically. Devnagri is very convenient ,comparatively.

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 18:40 #
  31. of-course...that is the biggest zulum we had done to our collective psychology!

    English used religion as well!

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 18:44 #
  32. we need to go to "our" roots...not to "english" or "arabs"
    or even "persians"....

    you see the levels and layers of incomplete-ness and their linguitic effects on us ?

    am I able to expose the "real" pakistani ?

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 31 Aug 2009 19:12 #
  33. shahzad1924
    member

    "we need to go to "our" roots...not to "english" or "arabs"
    or even "persians"...."

    what exactly do you mean by that?

    we already don't know arabic very well, which is the biggest reason why we are easily manipulated by molvis. why do you suggest something other than learning arabic?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 2:23 #
  34. A proto-language is the common ancestor of Urdu, Hindi, Persian, Sanskrit, English, German, Bengali, Russian, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Turkish, Albanian. The more we think we are different the more we are the same.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_studies

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 12:41 #
  35. more info here.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 12:42 #
  36. mullah
    please read this
    The Age of Reason
    The fall and rise of Rome and the spread of English
    http://www.literature-study-online.com/essays/ageofreason.html

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 12:52 #
  37. Yes , I am aware of all these articles ....thats why I am suggesting that we as a nation start a campaign to look at ourselves...

    remove all "covers".....

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 14:11 #
  38. shahzad1924
    member

    Mulla sahab, would you care to answer my question?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 14:22 #
  39. what is your question ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 14:43 #
  40. shahzad1924
    member

    if sheeda sahab would stop spamming, you would have seen this. but anyway;

    "we need to go to "our" roots...not to "english" or "arabs"
    or even "persians"...."

    what exactly do you mean by that?

    we already don't know arabic very well, which is the biggest reason why we are easily manipulated by molvis. why do you suggest something other than learning arabic?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 14:45 #
  41. read it carefully what I have to say....so we do not get bogged down with intra-idealogocial fight...as our context is very narrow while discussing this issue...

    so..

    1) We have a problem facing us as a collective, and we are trying to come up with an "understanding" of the problem first so that we can look at the options of "solutions"...ok ? this is the context....

    2) From the angle of , yes indeed there are other angles of perception, but from the angle of Human development of a society which has been raped by colonization, what mode of "developmental" philosophy would bring out the best results in the short and long term of the nation, we are using a narrow yet very very large impact idealogoy of "linguistics" ...

    3) Not Language, but linguistics, now what is the difference ? if you ask, the difference is in the "apptitude", the salahiyat, yani collective salahaiyat, istidaad, of the nation, no one has have taken this "salahaiyat" based approach....that is what I am saying...

    I am saying that we remove the labels of being gora-type, arab-type, and we look at ourselves as what is our core, what is our asaliyat...are we even able to handle basic arabic religion, are we even able to handle gora education...current results of past 60 years of our such efforts have produced utter devastating results cause our "core" is not taken into consideration when religion and education is pasted upon us........

    remove the gora influence and arabic influence and build your nation based on their "original"...talents and you will see our nation shine!

    in english "original" also mean "not to copy"....do not copy systems or religions......

    is it clear or are you going to drag in religion and your personal understanding of religon...and try to tell us how educated you are, do not do that, as we are discussing a "self exploration" method of our society......

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 14:56 #
  42. shahzad1924
    member

    "our society......"

    that's the key word.

    our society yearns for Islam. and one of the fundamental reasons why our society does not progress, is that we do not understand Islam because we do not understand arabic. we have the love and the passion to put our lives on the line for Islam but we do not have the fundamental tool for understanding Islam - Arabic.

    and IMHO, i can't see where this discussion is going? what do you suggest? what should we do?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 15:03 #
  43. you cannot understand this discussion as your approach is already based on Arabic influence......you wont be able to fathom this cause you already have a broken solution...

    if our society yearns for islam, how come pakistan has the top number of be-namazi population among all the muslims nations.....

    so, our action is actually first to "self-analyse"...

    no one ever paid attention to our buniyadi salahiyat and then desigened a developmental program, they all and always just imported one from outside...

    the best language which will not cloud us and not retard us and not destroy our intelligence is our own basic ethinic linguistics cause thats the fastest and easiest way to communicate which is the basis of speedy development..

    what is beuracracy ? the inablity of effective communication is called beuracracy ?

    so action items for a person in a society as as follows:

    a) start negating the effects of gora on our psychology...
    b) start loving and adopting our "own" natural products and encourage quality in "our" own home made products.
    c) start spitting and punching those paid priests who glorify non local hero in religion....
    d) take aggresive stance against corruption....cause it hurts national interest....
    e) be yourself........

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 15:15 #
  44. shahzad1924
    member

    "you cannot understand this discussion as your approach is already based on Arabic influence......you wont be able to fathom this cause you already have a broken solution..."

    i really dont understand how learning arabic would have an Arabic influence? the Arabic of the Quran is fussah arabic which is not used today by most of the Arab countries. what influence are you talking about?

    "if our society yearns for islam, how come pakistan has the top number of be-namazi population among all the muslims nations....."

    im assuming you carried out some survey. care to share the results?

    "the best language which will not cloud us and not retard us and not destroy our intelligence is our own basic ethinic linguistics cause thats the fastest and easiest way to communicate which is the basis of speedy development.."

    sir jee, thats what ive been asking you. do you have a name for that "ethnic language"?

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 15:20 #
  45. shahzad1924
    member

    im off to bed. so, take your time.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 15:23 #
  46. i repeat, you cannot understand this issue.....you are talking about language and i am talking about linguistics!

    there is no one "one language" let them develop with in their local perspectives....and then let "them" decide with themselves....no external influence!

    Mulla!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 15:36 #
  47. :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Sep 2009 20:56 #
  48. shahzad1924
    member

    again, i dont understand how learning arabic can have an influence of another culture upon us. as i said before, the language of the Quran is fussah arabic. and fussah arabic is only spoken by a handful of Bedouin tribes today. if we learn fussah arabic today, we wont become a Bedouin tribe. the least that would happen is that the deception of a handful of molvies would be exposed who have taken the common people hostage because they know arabic and the people don't know it.

    the rest i agree with you. my grandfather migrated from anant naag (kashmir) to chawinda (sialkot) and today my family speaks punjabi, nobody speaks kashmiri. this is a natural process and there should be no external influence on it.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Sep 2009 1:44 #
  49. NNL
    member

    though he hates the Arabs but he loves his ibn arabi.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Sep 2009 1:56 #

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