idea of WAITING.. « PKPolitics Discuss

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idea of WAITING..

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toamin
member

often it is observed that muslims are in a state of "waiting", meaning they feel absolved from responsibility of political leadership, i think that this state of waiting can be tracked back to imam hassan askari, he has a concealed son who is in the continuation of his life to date and he will reappear in future..

this concept is the corner stone of shia political ideology where leadership belongs to 'divinely chosen' people, so now people are waiting for an imam to appear and declare his status and everyone would follow

but this notion runs contrary to the early history of muslims, even early shias believed in consultative leadership, how this idea of consultative leadership transformed into divine leadership?

there seems to be a lot of confusion in sub continent, people gave up the struggle and went into "WAITING" state, this concept needs clarification that it is the responsibility of the people to appoint a ruler who can implement islam and not to WAIT because it is 'unislamic'..

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 3:59 #
haider3
member

Salam, only the thrid day of the year and you've jolted us awake with a complex question: Why the wait on the part of the Muslims?

The theological aspects of what you state I'll leave more qualified than myself to discuss with you. I just want to say a few words about that very tricky notion of the implementation of Islam. And in purely political terms.

We are dishonest, corrupt, alienated, but Pakistan is still a Muslim country. But Muslims do not fare well in this world as separate entities. We must join up. We must bring back our unity. And that is what we are about to do. Here, read these words by an informed journalist:

Ashraf Javed in an article in The Nation entitled “China thwarts Indian attempts to isolate Pakistan.”

According to Javed, Beijing has stopped the Bharati propaganda against Pakistan by making a colossal commitment towards Islamabad. As we have written in previous columns, the Americans see doom and gloom East of the Duran Line, and the Bharatis see gloom West of the Radcliff Border. The Chinese on the other hand see opportunity and profit in the land of the Indus. While Bharat is unable to resolve its disputes across the Manmohan line, the Chinese relationship with Pakistan has grown by leaps and bounds. Javed sees Premier Wen’s moves ” as a Chinese effort to retain balance of power in the region and to maintain Pakistan as a potent regional state.” the $35 billion in investment in Pakistan and the nuclear and space cooperation is unprecedented and will go a long way in shattering the US paradigm in South Asia. Javed is right when he says that the “US probably will need to revisit its notion of dominating Asian resources through India. In this rapidly transforming world the concept of having absolute supremacy is already outmoded. With the knowledge and technology explosion dominance of nations through military might or coercion is no more a viable option. The only way forward is mutual cooperation based on win-win propositions as China’s unprecedented support to Pakistan has blocked all Indian ambitions to isolate Pakistan on nuclear front.”.

The Chinese optimism about Pakistan puts a spanner in the Bharati machinery and its local acolytes within Pakistan. Beijing’s confidence and support for the people and economy of Pakistan is raising eyebrows in the Middle East and West Asia. Turkey, the seventeenth largest economy and a major regional power is working with Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran to rebuild the ECO–a grouping of Muslim countries who were formerly shackled by the USSR. Their independence and the discovery of oil and gas in the Central Asian Republics, create opportunity and profit for the Muslims of West Asia. This reality is being recognized by the Muslims all over the world. The Chinese and Russians are building the infrastructure to get their goods to the warm waters of the Arabian Sea. Pakistanis are willing participants in becoming the new trade corridor for China, Russia and the new Tans.

This week Turkey, Afghanistan and Pakistan are meeting in Ankara–rebuilding the ECO and trying to resolve the Afghan conflict among themselves. This trilateral dialogue has become a powerful voice in presenting solutions to the Afghan quagmire. As the Americans prepare to leave, Iran, Pakistan and Turkey want to fill the vacuum so that outside forces do not take advantage of the ensuing dialogue. There is consensus that only the Muslim neighbors should resolve Afghanistan. Turkey is an acceptable broker for Iran, Pakistan, Kabul and the Taliban. There are rumors that the Taliban are meeting with Mr. Karzai in Istanbul, though this has not been publicly announced.

http://pak1stanfirst.com/201012293026/world/politics/a-new-china-turkey-and-pakistan-alliance.html

We are in a state of wait, certainly. But not because we are awaiting the arrival of Imam Mehdi. Our wait has more to do with the departure of the invaders. And we are working behind the scenes for the revival of the Ummah which might then pave the way eventually for the return of the Khilafat. And none of this has anything unIslamic about it to my mind. What do you think, Salam?

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 7:43 #
nota
Member

"We are in a state of wait, certainly. But not because we are awaiting the arrival of Imam Mehdi."
But aren't we? For isn't it "written" (in fact everything is written and will happen as written no matter what so why struggle)? "Don't lift a finger for Allah will do it all"? Just look for the "signs of Qiyamat" (and it is almost here anyways so no need do anything). Just read this and that a hundred thousand times and you will be covered! etc., etc., etc.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 7:57 #
Truthlover
Member

Salam.
This waiting for some spiritual personality is not just confine to us, the Muslims but is a common thing in all major religions.
Hindus await Kaliki Avatar, Bhudhists are waiting for Lord Maitrya, Jews are still looking for their Messiah, as the one that appeared two thousand years ago, they rejected as false. The Christians are awaiting the second coming of Christ and so on. Now the question is do all these religions stop doing the normal activities and just wait for some real or mythical personage? The answer is certainly no, the world moves on despite this state of expectancy, we should have done the same but don't it.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 8:55 #
toamin
member

mirza ghalib

this "waiting" issue is a genuine problem in our society leading to stagnation of thought & action, it is usually coupled with "signs of qiyamat" as nota pointed out-

as far as china/pak relationship goes, both are about protecting self-interests

china is doing 60 billion dollar annual business with india while 6 billion with pakistan, india is afraid of china market and doesn't let open her market to china, while pakistan is afraid of indian market and doesn't open her to india, but look at the contradiction, pakistan has opened market to china?? ? if china is such a big friend of pakistan, why not they do something about trade deficit?? how about china purchases pakistan's finished textile products that face embargo in european/american markets? ??

what i am trying to say is that self interest comes first in international relations.. no emotions in business :)

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 8:59 #
nota
Member

@Salam
"how about china purchases pakistan's finished textile products that face embargo in european/american markets? ??

what i am trying to say is that self interest comes first in international relations.. no emotions in business"
Indeed. And let's not forget their dumping goods here that has destroyed many a manufacturing businesses. Again I think the "waiting" thingy is at play here ("We don't need to do any thing because 'China is our friend'")

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 9:22 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

We are in a state of 'wait'. I can talk what's 'reality' in real life.

The common man knows why we are waiting. We are in a 'waiting' state to 'avoid' going to war with western nation states for 'as long as possible'.

The common man knows the MULLAH is honest. He also knows, the minute MULLAH came into power, western nation states would force war on Pakistan. Why ? Because MULLAH would sideline notions such as;

(1) safeguarding the interests of people from western nation states in this country, in this region

(2) towing the policy line of western nation states in this country, in this region

the MULLAH will adopt policies at the state level that will move Pakistan towards 'self reliance'. Self reliance means, the state money in Pakistan will be spent on the people, rather than getting pocketed by criminals, traitors, opportunists, rich people, etc etc.

And the MULLAH will take more steps to the benefit of the common man of Pakistan and neighbouring Muslim countries. This will move Pakistan in a direction of 'attaining' 'power'. Which would then mean, Pakistan would look beyond its borders, to enhance its power, its reach. It would be able to have a 'stronger' 'say' towards a viable position in this region.

This rejection of slavery at the hands of people of western nation states by the MULLAH when he comes to power in Pakistan, this act of throwing away the notion of 'safeguarding' interests of western nation states inside our country, inside this entire region will anger the west. At this point in time, the west has military strength. They would force Pakistan into war untill Pakistan is subdued to safeguard interests of people living in western nation states.

And the common man does not want to go into a lengthy struggle against the military might of the western nation states.

The common man wants the local criminals (i.e., the local oppressor) who bow down to western nation states to remain in power, so that Pakistan is not forced into war.

The common man in Pakistan thinks 'waiting out' the 'foreign' oppressor is a good or better 'strategy' than 'engaging' the enemy and kicking their @$$ out of this region.

Yet, what the common man is not realizing is, the more he/she 'waits' the more the western nation states destroy their nation from the inside. The more the lives of the common man are pushed towards a bloody revolution, anyway.

When people rise for a revolution, the people who are representative of the interests, well-being of the local population will be brought to power. Why ? To adopt those policies at the state level which would improve the lives of local people. Once that happens, the west will force war on Pakistan anyway.

The 'wait' is a strategy of 'running away' from 'bloodshed' in war, by the common man of Pakistan.

Yet, be it war or revolution, bloodshed is bound to happen sooner or later. There's no escape from it. The local tyrants who 'safeguard' the interests of the west inside Pakistan have increased their 'greed' beyond levels of tolerance of the common man.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 9:30 #
nota
Member

@HK
"The common man knows the MULLAH is honest."

Now if that is your idea of "what's 'reality' in real life", I can safely say you ae clueless about reality and believe in Santa (And do tell him I said "Hi!")

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 9:39 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@nota: Great. So then what other reason is there for the common man to 'consistently' send 'criminals' to corridors of power in Pakistan ?

You seem to be 'insinuating' that the common man is bereft (is incapable) of 'distinguishing' between honest and dishonest people, who live among them. Is that really the case ?

Does it take 6+ decades for the common man to come to know who is 'honest' and who is not ?

You think the common man is that stupid ?

Why do you think the common man who is 'recovering' from his worse off fiscal condition (since the time of creation of Pakistan), why would he/she allow honest people to come to power ? Honest people would stop his/her 'looting frenzy' inside Pakistan. The common man thinks that would mean they would have to 'struggle' for a longer time to get back to financial strength.

Muslims also are 'capitalists', remember ?

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 9:41 #
Truthlover
Member

@hariskhan,
You really believe that the length of a post is the most determining factor, right?
"The common man knows the MULLAH is honest." Your Quote.
You are indeed a man of real understanding, and your statement is a living proof!

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 9:45 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@Truthlover: You may want to 'engage' in 'idle speculate' on my part. In that case, I should warn you, it is a dangerous and misleading pass-time in most all cases.

When there are 'disputes' among the common man, those who 'resolve' the disputes are noted as 'arbitors' or 'representatives' of the people. The ones who 'establish' justice among the common man 'represent' the common man. Why ? Because the common man 'trusts' him to do well-by him.

Do you think those who'v been handed over power by the people, have they done the job of 'representing' the interests of the common man of this nation or not representing his interests ?

Why is it that in the two most 'poor' provinces of Pakistan, the common man chose MULLAH to 'represent' him ?

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 9:50 #
nota
Member

@HK
"You really believe that the length of a post is the most determining factor, right?"
Quantity vs. quality: Does the MULLAH not always insist on the former (as I mentioned earlier?)

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 9:51 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@nota: The MULLAH may make mistakes. Yes, he has also committed crimes. Yet, he is also the foremost in coming forward to be held accountable.

Why is it that no one other than the MULLAH is foremost in being held accountable ?

Why is it that those who are 'responsible' for holding people accountable in our country/nation state 'run away' from conducting their accountability ?

There are reasons for it, are there not ? These reasons have persisted for multiple decades, have they not ?

He is also recovering from his 'intellectual' loss, in addition to loss in other realms of life.

Yes, at times when they are not financially 'self sufficient', they also make mistakes, they also commit crimes.

Yet they certainly don't 'insist' on quantity vs. quality once they have 'achieved' financial freedom, the ability to 'sustain' themselves through 'self reliance'.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 9:53 #
nota
Member

"When there are 'disputes' among the common man, those who 'resolve' the disputes are noted as 'arbitors' or 'representatives' of the people. The ones who 'establish' justice among the common man 'represent' the common man. Why ? Because the common man 'trusts' him to do well-by him."

Another TRUTH by MULLAH (Only thing he forgot is the reality that the common man does not go to a MULLAH for justice/arbitration but to the panjait/jirga/sardar/landlord)

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 9:55 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@nota: There's a 'big' difference between 'panchait/jirga' and sardar/landlord arbitration.

The former 'may' provide 'some' semblance of justice, but the later mostly offers 'oppression/tyranny' to the common man.

In multiple cases MULLAH is present in the 'panchait/jirga'.

If the common man bows down to the oppressor/tyrant, that doesn't mean the MULLAH is at fault. It is the common man who is at fault for accepting 'unjust' power of the oppressor/tyrant, rather than coming together and standing up against the oppressor/tyrant.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 9:57 #
Truthlover
Member

@hkhan,
Our words do reflect our thoughts, don't they?
You're confused but know it not. What honesty are we talking about here? When was our Mullah an honest individual? Aren't they as much corrupt and hypocrite as the rest of the society?
The common man in Pakistan is weak, illetrate and confused and that's the reason he turns to men of book, the men who are as materislists as their uneducated brothers.
It's the Character that's lacking and not the words.
We know you are trained in art of oratory but your words have lost all magic and we await the actions and not powerful tongues!

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 10:09 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@Truthlover: Good! to know.

P.S. I gain nothing but 'engaging' in powerful oration. I am not an 'opportunist'. I do not look for 'personal' betterment at the expense of demise of my collective.

I repeat: My purpose is 'constructive'. My purpose is betterment of our people, our collective.

I will pursue that which I require, through legal, good, wise means in order to achieve betterment for our people, for my/our collective.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 10:13 #
toamin
member

hariskhan

for your information MULLAH is already in power and get things done that are dear to them-

Mullah meaning madrasah business of deobandi/baralvi/shia/salafi- they are all in power, part of the system and trained by colonial raj, they neither have any vision nor any demand-

jamaat-e-islami mullah are also part of the system and believe in participating in colonial raj system, they are waiting for the day when munawar hassan gets majority vote and gets into PM house-

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 10:18 #
haider3
member

Salam, to go back to my post. You all jumped on the China bit which I just retained as a background to what really counted: the Turkey-Pak-Iran-Afghanistan nexus. In other words, the Muslim context. Which is what your thread is about, isn't it, the implementation of Islam?

HK was also trying to reply to that in his own inimitable fashion.

Neither of us denied the wait element in our behaviour, We along with others intrepreted it in different ways simply. To sum up, then, according to me, the implementation is ongoing. Upto us now to realise it, even if it is not how we might have imagined it. Upto us now to give it our full support and to make ever effort to see it comes to fruition.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 10:31 #
haider3
member

Hang on, TL, I must object to something you said above, sorry. Here, this bit:

"The common man in Pakistan is weak, illetrate and confused and that's the reason he turns to men of book, the men who are as materislists as their uneducated brothers."

Our "uneducated brothers", indeed! Makes us sound like kings, it does. That is exactly what is wrong with Pakistan, this incredible superiority complex the middle classes harbour over the majority of their fellows.

But that is not the reason I'm adding these lines. I begin to suspect more and more that many of you might never have addressed the poor in our country like human beings on exactly the same level as yourselves. If they had done so, they could never have used the word "materialist" about them.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 10:40 #
ajhons
Member

MG sir

The beat that slowed down sometime earlier is gaing the pase.The light that start fading in 13th centuary has once again started to emerge. As you mentioned "Turkey-Pak-Iran-Afghanistan nexus"(Although I still have some reservations about future rule of Iran) is the next big story, the sucess story, we might be telling our grandchildrens.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 10:47 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@Salam: (1) I am not in touch with deobandi/baralvi/shia/salafi. Don't have 'complete' info on their 'activities' at this point in time.

To me they are schools like Aitchison, Crescent, LGS, NGS, etc etc, nothing more. There is no 'sectarianism' between them. Or to put it in better words (especially for convenience of people of the past), the 'sectarian' element that existed in past decades, is 'diminishing'. Those groups are 'moving' towards consensus, towards unity, at least inside Pakistan.

MMA is a 'representation' of this 'consensus', this 'unity'. 6 groups came together, joined hands. Their leaders 'successfully' 'controlled' many situations that would spark violence among the groups, inside Pakistan, in this past decade.

Only those among our ranks, who want Muslims to;

(a) 'remain' 'divided'
(b) remain 'busy' in 'in-fighting'
(c) continue to remain aloof of real issues of life

'highlight' or 'consistently repeat' notions like 'sectarianism'. I personally consider the people who 'highlight' or 'consistently repeat' sectarian notions as 'mischievous' 'opportunists'.

--------------------------------------------------------

(2) You have little or no understanding of people at JI or what they endevour to achieve. Yet you 'house' a lot of 'jealousy' towards them

The people at JI are not 'opportunists', criminals, traitors, unjust, or people with 'slave mindset', as you like to 'glorify' them.

They are 'mature', kind, good, educated Muslims, who endevour to function for betterment of Muslims as well as minorities who are our country's responsibility or under 'protection' of our country/nation/collective. They pay their taxes. They are law abiding citizens.

Some of us 'identify' JI as a group of 'Ulamaa' only. That is not the case. JI is a 'group' of people who come from diverse backgrounds. The people who come together at JI's platform come from all facets of our society, community, country.

--------------------------------------------------------

(3) Why are you against the people at JI who you say 'are waiting' for their leader to 'attain' power, in order to work for the betterment of people of this nation ?

I will correct you here. The people who come together at the platform of JI are not 'waiting' for their leader to come to power. They are 'struggling' to do what they can for betterment of our people even now.

Do you think 24,000 volunteers (who are also citizens of Pakistan) who come together at JI's platform, who worked for 'rehabilitation' of flood affected people of Pakistan. that they were 'waiting' for people of this nation to grant them the 'power' to make decisions, take actions ?

Did they 'wait' for the masses in Pakistan to 'give' them the decision making power, action taking power, before they went to help the flood affected people of Pakistan ?

Your words 'demonstrate' 'hypocr|sy', 'irrational' 'hate' towards JI. You are 'misinforming' the masses in Pakistan about JI.

As I'v iterated and re-iterated in the past, it was people at JI who struggled for interests of the common man when all other political platforms stopped functioning to represent the interests of people of this nation.

(a) Are people who come together at JI not citizens/people of Pakistan ? Are they foreigners ?

(b) Don't they live among our ranks, in our society, our community ?

(c) Do they sell their loyalties to the oppressor ?

(d) Do they work for their own personal benefit, ignoring or sidelining interests, betterment of the rest of the people of this country ?

What is it that is pinching you in your 'ego' regarding JI ?

I repeatedly note you have 'extreme' 'jealousy' with JI that you are unable to look past. Do you think you are in competition with them ? That you'll loose your chance to 'work' for betterment of people of Pakistan and be 'left behind' as a result ?

What is your problem with people at JI ? Why this 'jealousy' ?

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 11:06 #
Truthlover
Member

MG,
What's that you exactly object to, is it the term uneducated, weak or the word confused?
Why our words describing the reality should put us automatically in royal positions?
Don't you agree that majority of our countrymen have been left with no real insight deliberately by the parasites of our society?
Why do you assume that I'm looking down at my less fortunate brothers?
MG, I have no intention of putting your concern for this majority on trial but please don't start questioning the designs of others.
It's exactly the main problem of us as a nation, we deny the realities and hide behind the wishful state of mind.
Why can't we confess that our masses are less aware of the truth due to many reasons and that we need to address the problems instead of getting irritated when someone mentions them.
What, are you to deny that we have turned into a materialist nation?
Do you really think that that's a vice only of our Elite?
Come on Mirza Ghalib, this denial is not a healthy or even a useful act!

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 11:12 #
Beenai
Moderator

we are waiting for an angel to come and make things perfect for us .

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 11:23 #
hkbajwa
Member

HK

hahahahahahahaaaaaa.... Honest Mullah you say.. and that too without a trace of sarcasm... wow

Anyhow our mullahs are no more honest than the average pakistani. Just because they SAY they are oh-so-honest doesn't actually make them so... all i can say is "HAJJ SCANDAL" to remind you of the latest financial improprieties committed by "honest mullahs".

As to the people "trusting" mullahs more than others, well i really have no friggin clue where you come up with that.

The fact that mullahs never seem to get many votes (unless the vote is rigged like in NWFP during Mush's time) should really tell you a thing or two.

THe mullah is the biggest scourge of the Islamic faith, just like any clergy in any religion has always been instrumental in that religion's demise or depletion.

Other than your blind faith in your mullah gods, you really don't have any sort of empirical or even circumstantial evidence to validate the claim that they are anything other than bloodsucking theological thugs.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 11:33 #
ajhons
Member

We need an honest leader.no matter a mullah or a suit wearning non mullah.That's the order of the day.An Honest leadership.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 11:43 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@hkbajwa: You are so 'predictable' :-)

You are not a Muslim. Why ? Because you do not adhere to Islam. As a result, according to Islam's standards, you have no say in politics of Muslims. Your concern is politics of your own community i.e., the Ahmadi/Qadyani community.

Muslims will take charge, take concern of politics of Muslims. They are more than enough to handle their own politics.

(1) Your 'belligerence', your hate towards MULLAH (who is representative of the local culture i.e., Islam) shows up as 'expected'. Your a happy camper when MULLAH is under fire. That is what Muslims are 'forced' to 'expect' from you.

You talk of the MULLAH who is 'alleged' to have committed 'corruption' in Hajj scandal ? Ok, I raise the question, where are the 'authorities' who are/were made 'responsible' to hold him accountable for this 'allegation' ?

Why haven't they taken him through the accountability process, to-date ? Why did they 'allow' this man to get away with what he's alleged to have done ?

MULLAH don't wield the power to;

(a) make decisions
(b) take actions
(c) dispense justice among our people

at the state level, according to the present power structure that stands inside Pakistan. The political parties which subscribe to 'secularism' hold power (i.e., PPP, MQM, ANP, etc etc) in Pakistan right now.

Why are they not providing justice to the common man ? What is stopping them from providing justice to the common man ?

Why are the political parties which subscribe to 'secularism' not setting a 'higher standard' of 'delivery' of 'justice' to the common man ?

(2) You, in your statements equate MULLAH among Muslims to 'clergy' among non-Muslims. Yet you rarely provide facts to support your statements. Your statements are empty, meaningless, worthless without facts

(3) As with the rest of masses living in this nation, MULLAH is also 'recovering' from his ordeal under 'direct' 'slavery' of British Colonials

MULLAH is working for 'revival' of himself, of Pakistan, and subsequently of Muslim UMMAH.

(4) I just put up the example 24,000 of 'volunteers' at JI endevouring to help flood affected people of Pakistan

Volunteers from other religious groups in Pakistan, also took part in this activity on a large scale.

JI spent Rs. 5 million on flood affected people in Pakistan, from their own kitty, before raising that amount. As per my knowledge JI has already 'collected' and 'spent' Rs. 3 billion in rehabilitation of flood affected people under the banner of 'Al-Khidmat'.

Yet you say I haven't put up facts. It is you, who is spraying statements on multiple threads without putting up facts to back them up. Not me. Your words are empty, meaningless, worthless as a result. Not mine.

I raise the question;

(i) where are/were the 'secularists', where are/were the Americanized/westernized, the rich of Pakistan ? Why didn't they come forward to help flood affected people in Pakistan ?

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 11:50 #
toamin
member

mirza ghalib

i am not sure what you mean by pakistan-turkey-iran-afghanistan nexus, each one has unique political history/dynamics-

if i comment on each one's international political standing then it would derail the thread, but in short leadership of each of these countries is TRAITOR (including iran)

general, sincere, capable, and honest professional muslims of our society are detached from political affairs of the state, they are either hopeless (signs of qiyamat) or waiting for hidden imam to come out... how did this mentality develop, how people left such important affair of politics/governance as a dirty & hopeless job?

HARISKHAN

i have little experience of discussion with EACH ONE, when I spoke with QARI sb he humbly requested to contact MOLAUNA sb, molauna sb asked to contact MUFTI sb and mufti sb asked to contact SHEIKH ul-hadith/quran, who listened, agreed and said that he is too old to be an activist and suggested to go to youth to bring about change :)

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 12:12 #
Truthlover
Member

Hariskhan,
I've no issue with your honest intentions, I trust you to be an honest person, the only problem with you is your allegiance with those whom you trust be honest as well.
You forget that to see the truth you have to be non aligned or you'll loose objectivity and become a victim of your loyalities towards those you hold dear.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 12:15 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@Salam: In contrast, I heard Qazi Hussain Ahmad answering a question in this way;

I get/remain healthy when there's a 'tehreek' (movement). I get sick when we are idle

So, what ?

@Truthlover: I am not a member or worker of JI. Not yet. Even so, I have worked with people from JI on different initiatives on multiple occasions.

Yes, I can make mistakes in 'identifying' people. I own up to the mistakes I make, crimes I commit. I 'move' quickly to 'resolve' the mistakes I make. I am quick to come forward to be held accountable.

I am for a 'revolution' that 'comes' 'as part' of a 'political struggle', and Islami political struggle that will settle the 'identify' of this nation once and for all.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 12:22 #
toamin
member

Qazi Hussain Ahmed is not Qari, Molana, Mufti or Sheikh, neither does he teach in any madrasah, i think you are totally unaware of that world :)

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 12:35 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ HK

Well as i have said so many times to you, unless you are ready to claim that you are God or a Prophet, then you really are in no position to say whether i am a muslim or not.

And i am certainly very much entitled to have a say in how my country will be run.

Anyhow i liken the mullah with the christian clergy because they perform the same role of placing themselves between God and Man. The whole point of Islam is that ANY man can lead other men in prayer, but now all of a sudden a mullah is needed. Any man can read a couple's nikah, but now all of a sudden a mullah is needed. Any man can ask God for forgiveness, but now people ask the mullah to ask for them.

The mullah is acting EXACTLY the way ANY clergy does in ANY civilization.

Also your statement that the Mullah is representative of "local culture" is factually inaccurate. Pakistan is a mainstay of SUFI islam. The mullahs are a recent arab import, whereas the sufis have influenced subcontinental culture for 1000 years. I am expressing my sincere dislike for the arab imported mullahs who have only recently succeeded in gaining any social relevance in our country. In fact my opposition to mullahs is a PROTECTION of our culture, and not the opposite.

Also i don't understand what you mean that mullahs don't have "power". Did they not have an entire province to rule just a few years ago (and were they not summarily rejected by the population in the election?)

And as to the JI helping the flood affectees i applaud them. I also applaud the many thousands of OTHER pakistanis from rich and poor backgrounds that collected funds and dispatched goods to the flood affectees. Please drop the sanctimonious only-JI-cares-for-the-people BS. There are many thousands of pakistanis who came to the aid of their countrymen for no other reason that the affectees were their countrymen.

Oh and btw i AM muslim :)

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 14:37 #
dildar
Member

@hariskhan

Are you a muslim?

If you claim that you are a 'muslim' then how do you substantiate your claim?

....and plaese drop this khan from your name, people get the wrong impression that you are a Pakhtoon, this would be too much of a pain if that happens....

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 15:25 #
Truthlover
Member

@ Dildar,

Just curious, what makes you believe that he is not a muslim or even a pashtoon?
Are you aware that millions of Khans live in Punjab, who don't speak Pashto? These are Panjabi pathans, who have lost contact with their mother tongues in the process of time.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 15:38 #
dildar
Member

TL

Well, actually I just used his lines because he is the one who thinks that he has some God-given rights to ask others about being Muslims and substantiating their claims...:), that was pure sarcasm...

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 15:56 #
Truthlover
Member

Got it, thanks! :)

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 15:59 #
haider3
member

There's so much to be said here, I don't know where to begin. With ajhons perhaps, to thank him for always being one step ahead of me in my thinking. Really surprising. And Ajhons, give Iran the benefit of the doubt for the time being, would you. Thanks.

Next, HK. He did my heart good when he wrote that our sectarian differences are slowly disappearing. For Islam to take over fully, this is an absolute first step, I'm sure you'll all agree.

TL, I do apologise, but I think we'll have to disagree over this one. Our masses are neither confused nor materialist in my experience of them. The middle classes are, though. They are wholly confused as to their identity, I find. Already as a child, in the heyday of the household servants, I found it to be so. I still find it to be the case. We all seem to be yearning to join either the elite here or the hard currency earners abroad. We never genuinely throw in our lot with the downtrodden of our country. We don't even understand them.

HKB was also right to say he has a perfect right to say how Pakistan should be run. Your theological quarrels are absolutely beyond me. But what he said above about the marvellous gift of Islam to its followers of absolute, unrestricted direct contact to Allah is nothing but the truth and one I have also had occasion to state on other occasions.

Salam, last but not least to you. I did specify above that I was replying only along political lines. The religious, sectarian side of it is really not within my grasp. Politically then, the nexus I mentioned is a fact in the making. You call them all Traitors. Traitors to what exactly, Salam? You point out their differances. That too is a fact. Another fact as well is United we Stand, Divided we Fall.

One Muslim country without the support of the others cannot go it alone in the years to come. We must come together. I'll add: whether we like it or not, Pakistan has to lead that Muslim community through the 21st century. I know it is not how you see the revival of the Muslim world. It is the one we'll get all the same before we then again transform ourselves into something else more along the lines of what you would call an Islamic wordlwide state.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 16:24 #
gujjartalwar
Member

Salam wrote:
"general, sincere, capable, and honest professional muslims of our society are detached from political affairs of the state, they are either hopeless (signs of qiyamat) or waiting for hidden imam to come out... how did this mentality develop, how people left such important affair of politics/governance as a dirty & hopeless job?"

I think this is not a realistic assessment of our society.
We are pinning too much on politics. Also, politics is a very challenging game. It needs a lot of resources, patience and perseverance. Frustrations, failures and losses are many and successes are few. Look at Bhuttos. Two genrations have been wiped out in a generation, in the name of revolution.

I think a majority of our politicians mean well and try to do whatever they can. We just have to find ways to weed out the crooks. Nobody is waiting for any imam to fix the things. We just don't know any better, but we are learning. I think today's political game is much mature and tolerant than only a few years ago. We will get there.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 17:06 #
Truthlover
Member

MG,
Don’t be apologetic my friend; your opinions are most welcome. I never claim to know the population of 170-180 million people of this country, most probably no one can. In coming months I would be unable to visit this site but would be back to read, enjoy and be enriched by the views of you friends.

Posted 1 year ago on 03 Jan 2011 20:17 #
toamin
member

Mirza Ghalib

all power centers/rulers in the countries you mentioned are traitors, no doubt about it. as far as people unity is concerned, that is not an issue because all general muslim population is already united.

artificial nation-state bond fabricated by colonialists and then enforced/imposed over muslims to keep them under 57 different labels is supported by local traitors, these traitors have deep roots with colonials, iran is an american puppet in the region, though you may not see it but that is what the reality is to me-

to expect something good from zardari, karzai, ahmadin, or erdogan is totally naive, there are other centers of power behind them aka 'establishment' and they are not independent..

anyway, i wanted to share this "waiting" thing which general population confuse with "patience".. word "sabr" is incorrectly understood as "waiting".. but this waiting thing is the corner stone of shia political thought where imam hassan askari's son is hiding and would reveal himself soon to the world and ALL MUSLIMS would submit to his authority!!

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jan 2011 9:03 #
ajhons
Member

What is this.A real account of events or just a fairy tail.My Shia friends can enlightened me on this.

http://www.al-islam.org/kaaba14/14.htm

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jan 2011 10:00 #
sara khan
Member

we have only oneway to acheive our goal that we just follow our religion & save our country or else our politician are razed pakistan.

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jan 2011 10:45 #
haider3
member

TL, thanks. We'll be missing you and looking forward to your return.

Salam, thanks for response. How can I say you're right and I'm wrong. One can only refer to one's own intuition and one own faulty knowledge of recent events. If everyone is manipulating us, then this is a very dark picture, indeed. I believe in the future of Islam - and in this respect, lt me say Sara Khan in two lines has stated the essential thing: follow our religion and save our country. That, seems to me, is exactly what Iran and Turkey have done and are doing. If everything is determined by each country's national establishment, then really we are done for. Allah alone can come to our rescue.

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jan 2011 12:12 #
ajhons
Member

MG Sir
just got the news about Gov Taseers murder.I have to say something about the post but in Karachi whenever a news of some incident brokeout trafic get cheotic and I've rush now.
Will be back tomorrow

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jan 2011 12:17 #
haider3
member

Thanks ajhons. See you then. Gov Taseer's murder has just hit the news stands. More about it tomorrow when you're back.

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jan 2011 13:02 #
toamin
member

mirza ghalib

hmm.. i am not trying to stress about who is right and who is wrong, i hold certain view point about these countries based on certain geopolitical concepts/understanding.. there is existing ruling class which is puppet/agent/traitor and then there are people of these countries.. that is where there is hope.. in the general goodness of the people..

as far as what is future.. again there are two factors.. one emanating from my belief and other is geopolitical reality..

anyway.. thanks for your input..

sincerely-

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jan 2011 13:35 #
haider3
member

Agreed about the general goodness of the people. In any case, I did enjoy this thread, one of the better ones going at the present time.

Posted 1 year ago on 04 Jan 2011 14:28 #
ajhons
Member

idea of WAITING..
MG sir
For me the very concept of waiting is not yet what most of us took it.We wait for some things
1: when we had done whatever is in our capacity and didn't get the result insuitable span of time.(Religion's point of view this is we atribute as Sabar.)
2:we got a situation and wait some betterment comeout within the situation by some other external force and do not contribute our effort into it.This is sometimes have effect which favoured us and at times the outcome is beyond our capacity of absorbing.This is the case with our society.

But there is another side of the situation we are facing as a pakistani nation and as an Ummah as whole.Its the transition phase.Transit to what Im not sure but definitly some goodness.Nature has its own laws.And the most important law is that cahnge is eminant.Change has to take place.This proven fact and you can find the proof no matter how deep you gointo history.Every civilization has to and had went through this change.Its nature's own style of shaping things.And this is also a fact that change always faces the rsistance from the recipient of the change either indivisaul or a group.

So whatever is happening around us is also might be the trnasition and wo knows how long will it take to get settled and will we be there to reconcile with it or our next generation or next to next generation.

Wallahualam Bissawab Only GOD Knows the Best

PS I'll be diappointed if Shimatoree sir avoid to comment on this post.(And Nota Bhai and MG sir too)

Posted 1 year ago on 05 Jan 2011 12:13 #
haider3
member

Ajhons, a very thoughtful comment on your part, this. I couldn't agree more. The transition phase most definitely. That's what the wait is all about.

Let me add something more. The rise and fall of civilisations. We'll just take a few of these cases. Muslim civilisation, for instance, was once the leading light of the world. It reached its peak and then suddenly began descending. Western civilisation took over. They reached their peak and now it's their time to fall. And ours to rise again. Muslims, China, Asia as a whole and, mainly, Africa (more than half Muslim in any case.) Our phase of decadence is now slowly receding. And not one of us can determine at which speed it must go. It's not in our hands. So we wait with all the patience and courage we can muster.

Posted 1 year ago on 05 Jan 2011 15:03 #
gv
Member

@salam

Would you prefer a bunch of hereditary monarchs ruling their respective carve outs of the islamic world (as in the pre colonial era) or would you prefer 'artificial' nation states managed by representative governments. (not saying that this is the case now just talking ideals)

Posted 1 year ago on 05 Jan 2011 15:13 #