If liberalism is about..... « PKPolitics Discuss

PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

If liberalism is about.....

(50 posts)

wantinsaf
Member

What is liberalism?If we ask this question to any so called liberal,he would respond saying "liberal promotes peace and tolerance so this is what it is all about".

But they go mum whenever I have asked them following questions in return:

1-If liberalism is about peace,then why do we need it in presence of Islam?
2-If liberalism is about tolerance,then why do we need it in presence of Islam?

Liberalism is beyond patience and peace.Patience and peace were mixed into liberalism to make it acceptable to fools and confused in the society.Liberalism came into being to make acceptable certain sins like night clubbing.

Can any liberal oppose night clubbing culture in the country?If he would other people would label him as conservative.

I know some people won't take all this as reality as they see Islam very tough to be followed.And particularly American beneficiaries in Pakistan would term it as rubbish and label me as conservative.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 11:08 #
naseemkhanan
Member

Watch closely the lifestyle of anyone claiming to be a liberal than you will come to know what liberalism actually means.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 11:50 #
wantinsaf
Member

@Naseem

That's the issue with liberals.They don't have live role models in Pakistan.If you ask them who is your role model and they start talking about few individuals who died many decades ago and none of them ever claimed saying "I am liberal".

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 12:41 #
yahya
Member

1-If liberalism is about peace,then why do we need it in presence of Islam?
2-If liberalism is about tolerance,then why do we need it in presence of Islam?

Why not ask jihadis these two questions? jihadis are the best justification for liberalism.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 12:45 #
wantinsaf
Member

Jihad is an essence of Islam.Jihad is one thing and misuse of Jihad another.
Misuse of Jihad should not be replaced with liberalism as one bad can not be replaced with another

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 12:48 #
yahya
Member

liberalism is bad? how come there are long visa queues to western countries?

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 12:53 #
aftab arif
Member

@ yahya

The visa queues have nothing to do with liberalism but more to do with the economic prosperity that most people want.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 12:58 #
yahya
Member

aftab, offer visas of both Saudi Arabia and US to people and see where a large majority will want to end up.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 13:08 #
hkbajwa
Member

Islam IS liberal

It is MEANT to be liberal. It is meant to have space for differing opinions and values

It is meant to be peaceful and tolerant.

I am a liberal but i am certainly also a muslim. It is purely idiotic to assume that they are mutually exclusive when it fact they are THE SAME.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 13:08 #
wantinsaf
Member

@Yahya

Aftab has very rightly pointed out that people willing to go to West are in search of making money.

Why did West come to Sub Continent centuries ago?Did it come to conservatism?

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 13:10 #
wantinsaf
Member

@hkbajwa

we had already discussion on this issue.
Islam could be similar with liberalism if liberalism was confined within patience and pe ace.But Islam's guidelines regarding moral values have been shunned by liberals terming them as voilation of privacy of individuals.

Don't try to understand Islam with the eyes of liberal.You had better understand liberalism with eyes of a Muslim.

If Islam is liberal(don't go by meanings,go by practices),then why Islam and Muslims had been given duty to promote and advocate Islam rather than Liberalism.

Liberal advocates liberalism whereas Muslims are supposed to advocate Islam.

Why did liberalism originate from West rather than Muslim world?

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 13:17 #
yahya
Member

wantinsaf, actually no its very narrow description of the issue. British when they came to subcontinent setup their own system which was very liberal, since then we have not been that liberal; the reason for many of the current problems.

As I said offer similar economics to a few people; one in liberal west and another in Islamic saudi, see where most of them muslim/non-muslims alike would want to end up.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 13:22 #
yahya
Member

"Why did liberalism originate from West rather than Muslim world? "

Because west are smarter?

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 13:38 #
aftab arif
Member

@ yahya

I can't comment on SA and the US as i don't have any backup information to that claim but from my experience living in the west i can say most come here to make money.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 13:49 #
yahya
Member

Living in west people enjoy what they won't in a muslim country like being able to wear relax (and not being stared), attaining higher intellect, enjoy freedom of speech etc. Even various Islamic sects are freer in west unlike in Muslim countries where usually one sect is dominant and rest are discriminated against and religious activities of various sects are attacked. I doubt anyone living in west for a while will be keen to go to an Islamic country to live permanently even if offered same or slightly better economics. Liberal and Muslim countries just do not compare.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 14:15 #
naseemkhanan
Member

Liberalism is a doctrine directed entirely towards the conduct of men in this world. In the last analysis, it has nothing else in view than the advancement of their outward, material welfare and does not concern itself directly with their inner, spiritual and metaphysical needs. It does not promise men happiness and contentment, but only the most abundant possible satisfaction of all those desires that can be satisfied by the things of the outer world.

Liberalism has often been reproached for this purely external and materialistic attitude toward what is earthly and transitory. The life of man, it is said, does not consist in eating and drinking. There are higher and more important needs than food and drink, shelter and clothing.

Even the greatest earthly riches cannot give man happiness; they leave his inner self, his soul, unsatisfied and empty. The most serious error of liberalism has been that it has had nothing to offer man's deeper and nobler aspirations.
P4-Liberalism in the Classic Tradition

Good for atheists.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 14:37 #
yahya
Member

"Good for atheists."

Most religious communities including Muslims are prosperous immensely in liberal societies. Not sure where you got this atheist thing from. The is the usual dead end answer by Islamists when they can't argue over the advantages of liberalism/secularism.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 16:04 #
naseemkhanan
Member

I can see that and sorry for the hurt it may have caused you. Even if you don't have the courage to acknowledge Muslims as Muslims but Islamists.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 16:18 #
Shock
Members

@wantinsaf

"..................... Can any liberal oppose night clubbing culture in the country?If he would other people would label him as conservative.

I know some people won't take all this as reality as they see Islam very tough to be followed.And particularly American beneficiaries in Pakistan would term it as rubbish and label me as conservative. "

Everybody doesn't have to follow your belief, or your ideology. Can any conservative support the nightclubbing culture, if he does his other conservative friends would label him as liberal or a western agent. To me Islam is just limited to hating America and the west by these conservatives. It is all about if you don't agree with us then you are an agent. Why Imran Khan becomes a lion against liberals, but a pu$$y in front of Jamaat? This example in itself should answer your two question. Islam doesn't mean liberalism, it means "submission to Allah" those who wants to follow should do so without any fear, those who don't are welcome to stay who they are. And people will judge Islam by actions of muslims (which we see everyday), not by speeches or articles.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 18:07 #
wantinsaf
Member

@Shock

You should have first read what we were discussing.It was about Muslims(follower of Islam,not liberalism) and liberals(God knows what they are).Nowhere conservatism was being discussed.
You are right in labelling Muslims as conservative as that's what your masters have inculcated into your mind.Islam is a religion which Muslims are supposed to follow even if they have to go against USA.Why should not Muslims speak against USA for killing thousands of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Imran has always stood for right.he always said what he felt as right.
Read this one:
http://www.insaf.pk/News/tabid/60/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/3794/Imran-khan-visits-Professor-Iftikhar-Baloch-of-Punjab-University.aspx

My suggestion to you is before coming to political forums,do some research about Islam and its teachings.

I nowhere asked anyone to follow me and have never been found involved in killing innocents and asking for BHUTTA to common masses.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 19:19 #
wantinsaf
Member

So far no liberal has answered my questions.This is enough to show their hypocrisy.

Liberalism is new culture for allowing people to commit sins.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 19:22 #
SugerMint
Member

I guess liberalism is more prone towards individual liberty and equal rights in a society irrespective of ones religion, color or sexual orientation. Also, liberalism is about evolving social changes within democratic political system, where as current generation fundamentalist (hindu, muslim, jewish, christian) talk about violent revolution to follow through their agenda. Which may be because they know they are not in majority in their respective countries.

To answer your question:

1-If liberalism is about peace,then why do we need it in presence of Islam?

If you mean Islam by taliban, then their is peace only if you are following talbanic way of life, if you differ, you are not at peace at all.

2-If liberalism is about tolerance,then why do we need it in presence of Islam?

Elaborate on first answer, question is how tolerant the conservatives/fundamentalist are? Again, if you are not living by rules laid out by them, you would not be tolerated.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 20:15 #
SugerMint
Member

@ wantinsaf: Liberalism is new culture for allowing people to commit sins.

You talking in certainty or this is your hypothesis?

In both cases you are not providing any evidence to backup your claim.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 20:17 #
semirza
Moderator

Agreed with wantinsaf
Liberalism is not for us. We have all our -isms, as a single package and that is our Deen.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 20:22 #
Shock
Members

@wantinsaf

"You are right in labeling Muslims as conservative as that's what your masters have inculcated into your mind."

Well my masters are not good with brainwashing 12 year olds, they have other important things to worry about unlike your masters who do the brainwashing 24/7. I don't follow personality, you have given Imran Khan a status of god. To you he is some kind of messiah.

"Muslims are supposed to follow even if they have to go against USA.Why should not Muslims speak against USA for killing thousands of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan."

So you agree muslims have to hate. And what about your Jihadi friends killing people in our own country. It is fashion to talk trash against America these days, and you'll be considered as the biggest intellectual of all time. Islam is just used to oppress people. Who the **** are you to decide what is a sin?

"Elaborate on first answer, question is how tolerant the conservatives/fundamentalist are? Again, if you are not living by rules laid out by them, you would not be tolerated. "

So did I. You may not have done that, but your masters are robbing banks to do terrorism. And they are indoctrinating little kids to kill innocents.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 20:37 #
semirza
Moderator

@shock
So you agree muslims have to hate. And what about your Jihadi friends killing people in our own country. It is fashion to talk trash against America these days, and you'll be considered as the biggest intellectual of all time. Islam is just used to oppress people. Who the **** are you to decide what is a sin?

As an American mouthpiece you holler a lot pulling non issues into controversies. For others you say, “Everybody doesn't have to follow your belief, or your ideology.” Never hesitating to use four lettered curse words like
Who the **** are you to decide what is a sin?

Well when you poke into other’s faith and beliefs than you should know as a fact that faiths do have a concept of virture and sin, pa’ap and punya, gunah and sawab.

Who the **** are you to decide what is a sin? You are being WARNED not to use four lettered abusive words in your comments for other members.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 21:02 #
Shock
Members

@semirza

I am an American mouthpiece. This is a country, that gives the most aid to your mother country, and other poor nations. This is a country, where almost every University/College has facilitated muslim students to practice their religion. If they have killed people (which is wrond), then it has also made positive contributions to the rest of the world. Now compare this country to the pious muslim world, which is crap. Your friends just killed bunch of soccer fans, but the story doesn't interest you because America wasn't involved. Being an American mouthpiece is 10000 times better than being Taliban Khan's spokesman/Moderator.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 21:14 #
semirza
Moderator

It is you attitude and behaviour that is not according to ethics of debate. Any one who differs from your rants is a taliban supporter or a terrorist.
Would be better if you stay away instead of disrupting discussions-your favourite activity.

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 21:22 #
shimatoree
Member

Yahya-

Your quote

"British when they came to subcontinent setup their own system which was very liberal, since then we have not been that liberal; "

Could you please provide a few examples of that planned policy of the British ?

Posted 1 year ago on 17 Jul 2010 23:40 #
yahya
Member

"Could you please provide a few examples of that planned policy of the British ?"

People were much freer to preach and practice what they believed. Different religions and sects had open public debates without riots. Most intellectuals or people of repute in our history are product of that British created open atmosphere that encouraged debate, allowed freedom of expression and freedom to disagree. Since that open atmosphere has disappeared in post-partition era we have stopped producing great people.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 2:24 #
shimatoree
Member

Yahya

What you say is historically incorrect.
Many families which have suffered a great deal at the hands of YOUR " liberal: Britishers would not agree with your opinion.

Nothing more need be said.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 2:38 #
yahya
Member

I never said British were perfect (come to think of it no one is including many of the Muslim emperors or even the current Muslim leaders of Pakistan) but the intellectual quality of those who were raised at that time and those in post-partition period is markedly different. Name a few heroes and most all would be the ones from the British (pre-partition) period.

Nothing more need be said.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 3:02 #
dildar
Member

Shimatoree

We don’t share the same experience.

For the people of Punjab, Britishers were ‘my baap’, and ‘NAJAT DEHANDA’ and for the people of Pakhtunkhwa they were just ‘goragan’ oppressors. We resisted them and they welcomed them.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 3:05 #
shimatoree
Member

Dildar

as a Pushtoon and as an individual whose entire family was destroyed by the
liberal" British I find it offensive at these laudatory comments about them.

"Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom"[1]) is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality "

I do not which world this gentleman lives but the British were anything but liberal.
Basic decency prevents me from saying what I would like to say in response to the statement that the British were liberal.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 4:06 #
SugerMint
Member

Subcontinent was more liberal before the British roll in. Mughals/nawaba/nizams had people from all religious back grounds in their courts. Society was tolerant and religion was kinda on back seat in state affairs.

Britishers polarized the society on religious grounds for their political gains which ultimately lead to two nation theory, which was unheard of during Muslim rule of the region.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 7:23 #
wantinsaf
Member

@SugerMint

I nowhere contended that Talibanisation is something Islamic or even sort of Islamic.

Islam comes from Quran and Muhammed,so I have no idea why you brought Talibans into discussion.

We were nowhere talking about fundamentalists or conservatives.And these are more cultural words.

As I have mentioned earlier there are no liberals or conservatives or fundamentalists in Islam.Islam only contains of Momins,Muslims and Munafiqs.

You had better stop equating Muslims with fundamentalists or conservatives.

Now,You need illustration of the fact "Liberalism is a new culture introduced for making sins acceptable in the society "
There are certain sins(not all the sins) this statement holds completely true.For instance,night clubbing is strictly prohibited in Islam.And what does liberalism say about that?Night clubbing culture has always been advocated and promoted by liberals.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 10:54 #
SugerMint
Member

@ wantinsaf:

Ok, lets try to have a civic argument:

a) When was the last time you see a government which lead any country/nation (Muslims) as per your ideal illustration of Islamic rule? This will help us in equating what model practically implemented we can discuss/use as a benchmark.

b) Libels do not force or advocate anyone to go to "night clubs", They vouch for individual right to choose what one wants to do. Means you are free to go to night club as you are free to go to a "shab e Jumma" tablighi session. Choice is yours without compulsion.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 20:58 #
semirza
Moderator

@Quote
Libels do not force or advocate anyone to go to "night clubs", They vouch for individual right to choose what one wants to do. Means you are free to go to night club as you are free to go to a "shab e Jumma" tablighi session. Choice is yours without compulsion.

Means a Muslim will prefer shab-e-Jumma tablighi session while a liberal will prefer going to a night club...wow

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jul 2010 4:20 #
SugerMint
Member

@ semiraz: Huh?? Where did I say a Muslim will prefer shab-e-Jumma tablighi session while a liberal will prefer going to a night club??

Don't try to put words in my mouth.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jul 2010 4:44 #
semirza
Moderator

Don't try to put words in my mouth.This mantra of your's may work on other not on me. What are you preaching then? Have courage and say it loud and clear that we liberals are free to do whatever to our liking and to our pleasure.(They vouch for individual right to choose what one wants to do.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jul 2010 5:45 #
choosy
Member

he he he
liberals kay baray mein tou mein bhi buhat saara kuch kehna chahta hoon...

aik tou liberal pose themselves liberals .
no2..they are simply arrogant .
they think ,they are somewhat superior ...
or know much more than others .

no3..they are rigid to accept any change in their set thought pattern...
as rigid as they called conservatives rigid .

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jul 2010 7:42 #
aftab arif
Member

One point i would also like to make and jog your momories over the past several months and years.

Where was the western tolerance in Europe when several countries have banned muslims from wearing the Niqab....

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jul 2010 11:21 #
SugerMint
Member

@ aftab: As in many Muslim countries what goes on the name of religion can not be equated with Islamic system/values, same as in many western countries what goes on such issues can not be equated as liberal values.

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jul 2010 20:09 #
wantinsaf
Member

@sugermint

As SemiMirza puts it brilliantly that a Muslims would prefer to go to Mosque wheareas liberal would choose to commit a sin(not crime) and go to night club.

And keep one thing in your mind,Muslims came up with the idea of saying prayers and then promoted it wheareas liberals brought night club culture.

And the story ends at a very well established fact "Liberals left no stone unturn to make certain sins acceptable for the society".

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Jul 2010 6:46 #
choosy
Member

hum ne tou Liberal countries ko conservative harkatein kartay dekha ...
aur conservative mulkon ko liberlism ki hadd kartay paya ...

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Jul 2010 6:57 #
sweettruth
Member

@wantinsaf

According to you "As SemiMirza puts it brilliantly that a Muslims would prefer to go to Mosque wheareas liberal would choose to commit a sin(not crime) and go to night club"

What a rocket science!
The above statement shows narrow minded approach to differentiate Liberals and Conservatives. All three paragraphs are incorrect and reflect limited thinking. Your liberal bashing may be your favourite pastime but it is the liberals which have given power to people to think freely and act freely. Trade Union movements have fought against unscrupulous employers for worker's right all over the world. Liberal stands for social justice and equality in the society. The list goes on and on.

So how did you come to this rocket science that going to a night club is a sin? Are you the authority to decide what sin is and what is not? Conservatives are number 1 enemy of having fun and enjoying good life. 50 years ago they did not allow blacks/Spanish in their Conservative Clubs. Even then in American Universities black students were bashed and in some cases banned. Today this gulf between black and whites is still wide if not too wide. Oxford and Cambridge Universities ask more question about a student's family background than about himself/herself. Conservatives believe in a very narrow world with all the perks and privileges only reserved for them. Conservatives believe if you are poor, it is your fault or if you are poor then there is something wrong with you. It is a shame some people decide themselves they are an authority to decide sins and in some cases or in most cases our Fasadi moulvis can declare who is Kafir. Issuance of Kafir fatwa is very common in our mosques and madrasa system. Our society is furhter tilting towards more dangerous religious conservatism which promotes intolerance and violence to obtain their nefarious goals

In my view, conservatism is a crime against humanity and its values

May God save us from Conservatives

Posted 1 year ago on 20 Jul 2010 7:28 #
wantinsaf
Member

@SugerMint

A muslim going to night club would commit a sin and one day will find himself ashamed of doing that.Any muslim commiting such sins will be termed as astray.But liberal will neither be ashamed nor an astray.Now you got the difference?

We Muslims at the same time need to realize that we are giving oppurtunities to the enemies of Islam by getting involved in such things.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jul 2010 7:39 #
ajhons
Member

My defination of Liberals is "Sheikh bhi kush Shaytaan bhi nara nahi."

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jul 2010 8:22 #
choosy
Member

@Ajhons bhai ,
he he he
yah tou mein ne first time suni hay kahwat ...

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jul 2010 8:46 #
LiberalKarachi
Member

Liberalism is a <political idelogy> (do u know what that is?) which strongly believes in liberty and equality. There are various strands of liberalism, such as social liberalism, which incorporates social market economy. And yes, one may argue that the ideology is perfectly compatible with Islam.

You should seriously get a book on political and economic ideologies to educate yourself about these things.

Posted 1 year ago on 21 Jul 2010 20:32 #