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India Faces Intifada-Like Revolt in Kashmir

(58 posts)
  1. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    “It is not about money — you have spent huge amounts of money. It is not about fair elections. It is about reaching out to a generation of Kashmiris who think India is a huge monster represented by bunkers and security forces.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/13/world/asia/13kashmir.html?_r=1&hp

    India Faces Intifada-Like Revolt in Kashmir

    By LYDIA POLGREEN
    Published: August 12, 2010
    SRINAGAR, Kashmir — Late Sunday night, after six days on life support with a bullet in his brain, Fida Nabi, a 19-year-old high school student, was unhooked from his ventilator at a hospital here. He was the 50th person to die in Kashmir’s bloody summer of rage. He had been shot in the head, his family and witnesses said, during a protest against India’s military presence in this disputed province.

    For decades, India maintained hundreds of thousands of security forces in Kashmir to fight an insurgency sponsored by Pakistan, which claims this border region, too. The insurgency has been largely vanquished. But those Indian forces are still here, and today they face a threat potentially more dangerous to the world’s largest democracy — an intifada-like popular revolt against Indian rule that includes not just angry young men but their sisters, mothers, uncles and grandparents.

    The protests — which have erupted for a third straight summer — have led India to one of its most serious internal crises in recent memory. Not just because of their ferocity and persistence, but because they signal the failure of decades of Indian efforts to win the assent of Kashmiris using just about any tool available — money, elections and overwhelming force.

    “We need a complete revisit of what our policies in Kashmir have been,” said Amitabh Mattoo, a professor of strategic affairs at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi and a Kashmiri Hindu. “It is not about money — you have spent huge amounts of money. It is not about fair elections. It is about reaching out to a generation of Kashmiris who think India is a huge monster represented by bunkers and security forces.”

    Indeed, Kashmir’s demand for self-determination is sharper today than it has been at perhaps any other time in the region’s troubled history. It comes as — and in part because — diplomatic efforts remain frozen to resolve the dispute created more than 60 years ago with the partition of mostly Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan. Today each nation controls part of Kashmir, whose population is mostly Muslim.... continued.....

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 0:15 #
  2. At least one person in our midst who still finds time for Kashmir and its problems. Thank you. I'd like to add the following to the Kashmiri Intifada account.

    Kashmiris reject Indian PM’s autonomy offer - 12.8.10

    SRINAGAR: Kashmiri leaders in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) on Wednesday dismissed overtures from Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh for greater political autonomy in the region following months of anti-India unrest.

    Appealing to Kashmiri Muslims to “give peace a chance,” Singh had said on Tuesday that his government would consider any consensus proposal for autonomy as long as it remained “within the ambit” of the constitution. He also announced the creation of a panel of experts that would draw up a “jobs plan” for IHK where rampant unemployment — especially among young people — is fuelling the already deep resentment against Indian rule. But senior Kashmiri leaders rejected Singh’s initiative.e. “Our fight is for independence, not autonomy,” Javed Mir, a former militant commander turned politician, told AFP. “We will continue our fight for our goal through peaceful protests,” said Mir, who had been among the first Kashmiris to take up arms in 1989. Under the terms of its accession to India in 1947 — after independence from the UK and the sub-continent’s division — Kashmir was granted a relatively high degree of autonomy, excluding areas like defence and foreign affairs. But those powers have been eroded over the years, and renewed promises of greater autonomy gain little traction among the circles. “Our struggle is not for the restoration of autonomy. It is to seek our right to self-determination,” Kashmiri leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq told AFP. afp

    http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20108\12\story_12-8-2010_pg7_30

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 0:54 #
  3. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib-

    I would wish that the Kashmiris would have the courage and fortitude to carry their struggle to it's moral conclusion. They are too late by about 62 years.
    They should have risen when the Pushtoon tribemen invaded in 1947-48.
    They should have risen in 1965 when Gen. Akhtar Hussain Malik attacked in Chamb-Jaurian.
    And they should have risne in the time of Kargil.

    They did not. And I for one doubt if they will this time but hope springs eternal- let us see.
    It will not be easy. It will not be pretty. It will not be nice nice.

    But just like the INTIFADA of the Palestinians had failed- the Kashmiri intifada will also fail. The Indians are no more humane nor reasobale than the Jewish colonizers from Europe . All the intifada will do is to get a lot of young men killed.

    So what is to be done that can help achieve the desired result- independence.

    Political solutions are only possible if you have an adversary who sees reason. Now that is out.
    So the option is obvious.
    Military solution. The Kashmiris have to make the occupation so expensive for the Indians that the Indian plea to leave. The Kashmiris have not done that. They have not even thought about that. They keep wishing for Mana to fall from the sky.
    Well , they do not have Hazrat Musa.

    An article in The NY times or the London Times does nothing.

    What will do something is that you send a lot of the Indians in Caskets back to India- now that language the Indians WILL understand.

    That is the only solution. Nothing Less.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 2:10 #
  4. shimatoree
    Member

    Quote-

    " The sword has always cancelled decisions made by the pen on paper "

    Musa Bin Abi Ghassan -

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 2:13 #
  5. India is a country that has been historically very sensitive to the events in it's surroundings. The events occurring in Af-Pak would certainly shape the region, India inclusive, specifically any armed and political struggles in that country.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 2:57 #
  6. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    ST,

    Is the Musa you are quoting the Lion of Granada who resisted the Spanish christians until Shaheed?

    Your contention that Kashmiris should have risen in 1948, 65 or later has no logic. The Kashmiris rose AFTER the defeat of Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Their struggle gained momentum after Mujahideen from Kashmir participated in Afghan Jihad and then came to their homeland and spearheaded the banner of Jihad and rallied the masses reeling under brutal Indian occupation.

    Palestinian intifada failed because it was nationalistic liberation. Any intifada whether it is Kashmir or Palestine or Iraq will definitely fail if it is national liberation. Real intifada is selfless jihad to make word of God supreme and based on Shariah not some real estate acquisition.

    As Allama Iqbal said

    teghzani karte the hum na hukumat ke liye
    sar bakf phirte the dahar me hum kiske liye
    ladte the hum tere naam ki azmat ke liye

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 4:40 #
  7. I see that no one here really seems to have understood the real meaning of the Intifida and the Kashmiri struggle. Neither is a failure as the general concensus so far seems to have decided. They have done their job to perfecton. Palestine, Kashmir are the sacrificed peoples of Islam. They suffer so that the rest of us do not entirely forget what it means to be a Muslim. Without their presence in the world, we'd have all turned into real copies of the white west, instead of being, at at present, simply pale ones.

    All we ever seem to be on the look out for is visible success. How well capitalism has trained my fellow human beings. There is such a thing as hidden success contained in extreme forms of suffering. Thanks to Kashmir and Palestine and to them and them alone will tomorrow's Ummah come together again.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 10:07 #
  8. shafiq12
    member

    Hindus are Sick Nation, They don't know the difference b/w God and animals, and now this sick nation is threatening us because we are following them (Look at our Film Industry)

    They believe the cow is their Mother, and if someone killed it than they Say

    Hindu think that the **** of Cow will cure them from many diseases and Now the Kashimir is in their territory becuase we have leave Islam and are Following their Tradition?

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 10:45 #
  9. Super Soldoer, I'm with you there. India is one very sick nation.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 11:08 #
  10. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib-

    your quote " There is such a thing as hidden success contained in extreme forms of suffering. "

    It appears to me VERY well Hidden indeed !

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 11:29 #
  11. shimatoree
    Member

    Abdur Rahaman-

    Musa Bin Abi Ghassan was a Christian . And Yes he was the same General.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 11:31 #
  12. shimatoree, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. They, our sacrificed peoples, symbolise Steadfastness, Resistance and Pride, things we so-called free Muslims stand sorely in need of. When we've regained these incomparable virtues, no power of earth will ever be able to stop us.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 12:08 #
  13. I would agree with shimatoree that Kashmiris are a different lot than Pakhtoons or Punjabis or putting it straight they are not a martial race at all.

    During the British rule either through blessed stupidity or intellegence they managed to fool the British. No Kashmiris therefore were recruited to fight from the British side in WWII.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 13:03 #
  14. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    Patriot,

    What kind of patriot are you? Is your patriotism still subservience to British Raj?

    Who defined the so called martial race?

    Common Patriot, Please forget the colonial legacy. The British colonialists labelled any ethnic group martial race to suit their strategy. A true patriot would have NEVER joined the colonial "mercenary" army and fought under the Union Jack. Britain is the third most hated country in the world. The Union Jack is drenched in the blood of our brothers and sisters across Iraq, Afghanistan, and Palestine. Our history is steeped in the blood of colonialism, rooted in slavery, brutality, torture, and oppression. If Kashmiris were not recruited then it was true patriotism on their part to shun the colonial army.

    BTW, the Turkish leader Mutafa Kamal used the pretext of Indian army(mostly Muslims from Punjab and Frontier) in WW I to ridicule Khilafat. He was pointing to Muslim soldiers serving under the Union Jack as traitors to Ummah. A huge contingent of Allied trrops( including Muslims from sub continent) were involved in one of the most ferocious battles against Turkish army resulting in deaths of hundreds of thousands. We all know how the Ottoman Caliphate was dismantled and the British pounced like vultures and created host of banana republics ranging from Kingdoms to Sheikhdoms.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 15:00 #
  15. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    Intifada update

    Please note that the heading is not correct. It is not "police" but military. India has over 1,000,000 occupying soldiers in Kashmir.

    Huge Protest After Police Kill 4 in Indian Kashmir

    August 13, 2010

    SRINAGAR, India (AP) -- Tens of thousands of Kashmiris staged angry street demonstrations Friday after government forces killed four people and injured 12 others during the latest unrest against Indian rule in the disputed Himalayan region, police said.

    Two months of violent clashes with security forces have left at least 55 people dead in Indian-controlled Kashmir -- mostly protesters who have been shot. The unrest shows no signs of easing despite the deployment of more troops and calls from the Indian prime minister for calm.

    Residents staged protest marches after Friday prayers across much of the predominantly Muslim region. Most of the marches were peaceful but in some places clashes broke out after security forces tried to block curfew-defying marchers.

    Paramilitary soldiers opened fire in Bomai, a village northwest of the main city of Srinagar, after thousands of protesters gathered and threw rocks at the troops, a police officer said. Two people were killed and at least four others wounded, he said on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to speak to the media.

    Local residents maintained the protest was peaceful and clashes only erupted after the shooting. Protesters surrounded a camp of paramilitary troops and were throwing bricks and rocks at it.

    In the northern town of Pattan, troops fired at a group of people who defied the curfew, killing a 65-year-old man and wounding two others, another police officer said, also on condition of anonymity.

    As the news of the shooting spread, thousands of people came out of their homes and clashed with government forces at several places in the town, police said.

    In Trehgam, north of Srinagar, protesters threw stones at government forces, angered by their refusal to allow them to visit a mosque for prayers on the first Friday after the start of the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan, resident Maqsood Ahmed said.

    The security forces fired at the protesters, killing a teenage student and wounding at least six others, the police officer said. The protesters were later joined by thousands of residents from neighboring villages, leading to more clashes, he said.

    Anti-India sentiment runs deep in Kashmir, which is divided between India and Pakistan but claimed by both. Protesters reject Indian sovereignty over Kashmir and want to form a separate country or merge with predominantly Muslim Pakistan.

    The situation in the volatile region in recent weeks has been reminiscent of the late 1980s, when protests against New Delhi's rule sparked an armed conflict that has so far killed more than 68,000 people, mostly civilians.

    In Srinagar, authorities did not impose a curfew on Friday after a key separatist leader and cleric, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, warned of total defiance if worshippers were stopped from praying at the Jamia Masjid, the city's main mosque.

    The mosque has remained out of bounds for people on Fridays for the past six weeks to avoid protests.

    Tens of thousands of people marched through the winding streets of downtown Srinagar on Friday and offered prayers at the mosque. They chanted ''Go India! Go back'' and ''We want freedom.'' Scores of people on motorbikes waved green flags. Most police and paramilitary soldiers had withdrawn to their camps to avoid clashes.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 15:11 #
  16. Patriot, AR's impassioned defence of Muslims and condemnation of the Brits should be taken seriously by us all, to say the least. Both are based totally on historical facts.

    And how can one call Kashmiris cowardly? A look at the figures alone dispels the notion. 68.000 thousand dead so far since they started their periodic uprisings against the armed Indian presence in their midst. See how they stick up for their own instead of simply melting into the background. And they fight with stones and rocks against fully armed soldiers. No, this is not a people lacking in bravery.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 15:43 #
  17. MG
    Are you saying that I am in anyway supporting the Brits? If yes than you are wrong. I don’t think the way they are dying is anything to do with courage or heroic deeds. I still stand firmly to what I had said earlier. Better study this historic reality that Kashmiris are not a martial race.
    India is helped by Israel in Kashmir. What is being done in Palestine is faithfully followed by India in Kashmir.
    Not an inch of Kashmir has been liberated after what the tribal’s fought for and won that is now called Azad Kashmir.
    Trusting Abdulla’s and Muftis is not a solution. Neither is 'negotiations' a solution with an enemy that refutes all reason. Only fools believe in wasting time and negotiation is a perfect mean to side line important issues till they are dead and forgotten.
    Might is right works here. If it works for India than Pakistan should prepare for another battle that seems inevitable because India is not ready to listen to us on Kashmir issue and is suffocating us at times or flooding us into catastrophes.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 16:10 #
  18. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib- To you I will just quote what Shiekh Sa'Adi said about the Kashmiris-

    quote " Bud Zaat Kashmiri "

    AR 's so- called defence of Muslims is without merit and without regard for the historical truth.
    To call the Ottoman emperors Khalifa in itself is ultimate expression of distortion by design.
    For your information people join foriegn armies because they need to eat and that is the only employement available.
    I wonder if AR would call the same names to those that joined the invading Arab armies or those that joined Mehmodd Ghaznavi or Mohammad Ghori or Babar.

    In life of nations- TIMING is everything.
    In my view( and mine alone) they have missed the boat. All this intifada will go no where untill and unless they are willing do what I said earlier. Send as many Indian soldiers in caskets as they can.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 16:21 #
  19. shimatoree
    Member

    Fully support Patriot's views here.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 16:23 #
  20. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    ST,

    Please edit and remove the ethnic slur especially in this holy month of Ramadan about our brethren from Kashmir. BTW, who is this Saadi? What are his islamic credentials? As far as I know he was a whirling dervish sufi. We should never quote such characters.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 16:26 #
  21. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    ST says:

    For your information people join foriegn armies because they need to eat and that is the only employement available.

    This is what Allama Iqbal has to say about such rizq.

    Aye tair e lahooti us risq se maut acchee
    jis rizq me aati hai parwaaz me kotahi

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 16:30 #
  22. For your information people join foriegn armies because they need to eat and that is the only employement available.

    I agree to shimatoree's observations including the above. Even true till date.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 16:49 #
  23. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    Likes of ST and Patriot are the ones helping US/NATO war criminals in killing fellow Muslims. How in the world can you justify serving in foreign armies? Mercenaries who help such foreign armies for sake of few morsels of bread are pathetic losers in this world and next.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 16:55 #
  24. Likes of you are the most disgusting of all. My self and Shimatoree know what we talk about. I bet you will **** in your pants when taken right up on a front where our army is fighting.
    Ever killed in defence of your country or saw anyone dying,kido?
    PC potatoes like you and your kind are only good at spinning neocon half truths and lies.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 17:11 #
  25. shimatoree
    Member

    AR-

    I shall ignore the personal stuff but I WILL comment on the rest.

    The Afghan Army soldiers are fighting for the invaders. Yes they are doing it to make a living.
    Do they have another choice ? Yes - to stay hungry and have their children stay hungry.

    The Taliban soldiers are fighting the invaders. Why ? They get paid too. They need to make a living too.

    You cannot eat words or ideas . You cannot worry about the Next world when you are hungry and when your kids are hungry.

    Yes it is a sort of prostitution but then everyone has to eat.

    They are NOT losers. They are just trying to make ends meet.

    An Islamic society is supposed to be an egalitarian welfare society- only then you can apply Islamic Sharia and if the society cannot do that- then Sharia Cannot be applied.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 17:19 #
  26. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    "Your" army is not "fighting" anyone but killing fellow citizens. They are good at washing NATO toilets. That's what they were always used for by the British and now US colonizers.

    Remember 1842 when an entire contingent of 19,000 British troops and mercenaries like your forefathers were wiped out by Mujahideen in mountain passes of Afghanistan. Most were british troops and "porters' aka bhangees. They are still bhangees today.

    Only one British surgeon was allowed to escape to tell the story as depicted in this famous portrait in British war museum by Elizabeth Butler:

    http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Retreat-From-Kabul.htm

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 17:27 #
  27. shimatoree
    Member

    AR

    You are wrong and you do not know. Your knowledge of hisroty appears to be rather selective.

    In 1842 my ancestors were fighting the British and continued to do so till the very end in 1947. So please do not talk about things that you cannot comprehend. If you are intellectualy honest then you would agree with the following-

    The Afghan army soldiers are not washing any toilets. Yes they are fighting against their own people. And they are doing that because that is the only job available to them. Your suggestion is that they should go hungry.

    Economics drives a society and it's rules. Prostitution is caused by economic issues.

    This will be my last response to you . End of story.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 17:36 #
  28. That same army has successfully kept the neocon mercenaries bogged down for almost a decade. ISI has done a great job or else why it is a target of your American lords?
    Why not ask your leadership who is issuing visas on a grand scale to Americans? How much dollars they have stashed away allowing the same **** holes to build fortresses under the pretext of building embassies? Occupy whole colonies as safe havens in Islamabad. Open your eyes for God’s sake.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 17:39 #
  29. @Patriot
    "Why not ask your leadership who is issuing visas on a grand scale to Americans? How much dollars they have stashed away allowing the same **** holes to build fortresses under the pretext of building embassies? Occupy whole colonies as safe havens in Islamabad. Open your eyes for God’s sake."

    Funny you should be saying that. Do you think that is all happening without the knowledge and stamp-of-approval of your beloved army? Next thing you'll be arguing it's the civilians who allowed Americans access to military bases.

    "Open your eyes for God’s sake!" (But I know you prefer to be blind) :-P

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 17:44 #
  30. To be blind is better than being pathetic idiots like Zardari and Gillani along with their pigsty loaded with swine who are to be blamed.
    Kiyani is doing what he is ordered to do by the President and Prime Minister. He is not acting on his own. Civilian leadership does not happen to be under his command.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 17:57 #
  31. Patriot, I do not suggest you support the Brits. Hope with heart and soul you don't. They are lowlives. But that was one interpretation one could put on your earlier comment.

    Shimatoree, Shimatoree, no insult intended, but I still think highly of the Kashmiris, martial or not. As I do of the Palestinians. And then, of course, of the best fighters in the world, paid or unpaid, the Afghans (Punkhtoons). Shimatoree must we be so down to earth in all matters. Should no space ever be left in our lives for human grandeur? Because that exists, too, as well you know yourself. Economy is not everything in the lives of human beings.

    The rest of the discussion is wholly beyond me. With each one accusing the other of God knows what. I'll leave the rest of you to get on with it.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 17:59 #
  32. Super soldier,

    Why drag their religion in a political debate?

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 19:21 #
  33. @natasha

    Because the religion is the world's biggest business and biggest weapon to fool people.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 20:09 #
  34. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    Hey Patriot,Do you know that patriotism is alien to Islam?

    Patriotism arises when people come together due to the love of a country. It is a form of unity that comes about when that particular country is under external threat e.g. military conflicts with other nations. The effect of this bond results in people of different backgrounds setting their differences aside to form a common front in support of the government. The concept of patriotism is often confused with nationalism. The inherent weakness of patriotism, as a basis of uniting people, is that it unites
    people temporarily and only then if an external threat is looming in the horizon. Hence, patriotism has no role to play during peacetime, and it cannot, therefore, be a basis of a permanent unity.

    Nationalism is a bond between people that is based upon family, clan or tribal ties. Nationalism arises among people when the predominant thought they carry is that of achieving domination. It starts from the family, where
    one member asserts his authority to achieve leadership in the affair of the family. Once this is achieved, the individual extends his leadership to the wider family. In this way, the families would also try to achieve leadership
    in the community they reside in. The next stage is that of tribes competing with each other, all trying to dominate others in order to enjoy the privileges and the prestige that comes with this authority. This breeds arrogance and ignorance along with extreme pride.

    Nationalism cannot unite the people because it is based on quest for leadership. This quest for leadership creates a power struggle between the people and this leads to conflicts among various strata of society. Another drawback of nationalism is that it gives a rise to racism.

    The spiritual bond among non-Muslims is a grouping of people based on their 'religious belief' which is not a comprehensive belief covering every aspect of life. An example of a spiritual bond is when people identify with each other on the basis of being a Christian, a Hindu or a Jew. Islam is not classed among these as it is a Deen rather than a religion. The term Deen comprehensively takes on the meaning as "A complete way of life". This spiritual bond does not unite people on issues other than matters of belief and worships, hence it is limited and cannot be the basis of any complete unity.

    In Islam, love and hate is only for the sake of Allah (swt). Our Emaan(faith) and Taqwa form this basis. Allah says: "The believers, men and women, are Awliya' (helpers, supporters, friends,protectors) of one another, they enjoin (on the people) good, and forbid evil, they perform Prayers and give the Zakat, and obey Allah and HisMessenger. Allah will have his Mercy on them. Surely Allah is All-Mighty,
    All-Wise". [Qur'an 9:71]

    From this verse we can note that Islam is not merely a ritual belief but rather one also encompassing the actions and deeds reflected upon by faith.So the final way in which people can group together is on the basis of Aqeedah or faith. It is Islam that provides the set of rules, regulations,and instructions according to which man lives and which he refers to in order to solve his problems. This bond only takes into account the Aqeeda hand nothing but that belief. Colour, race and gender are irrelevant. This is
    the type of bond found within Islam.Therefore bonding through the Aqeedah and Emaan is a permanent bond because
    it arises from a conviction pertaining to the meaning of life. The creed is never influenced by colour, race, language, love of a land or local issues. Hence, it is the true basis for permanent unity. Islam calls for this type
    of unity.

    Islam came and eradicated nationalism. The nationalistic structure of the pagan Arabian society, which existed for centuries, was diminished by its arrival. Islam invited people to believe in one God, Allah (swt), and to follow His commands. For Allah (swt) says,"And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer and to practise Zakat; and this is the deen right and straight." [Qur'an 98: 5]

    It asked for loyalty to the deen of Allah (swt) rather than to the tribes. Ties between the Muslims were therefore based upon the Aqeedah of Islam. All Muslims were treated exactly the same, irrespective of their family background, and anyone who declared the Shahada "La ilaha illa Allah Muhammad Rasul Allah" became part of the Muslim Ummah.

    The Prohibition of Nationalism Nationalism is a concept alien to Islam because it calls for unity based on
    family and tribalistic ties, whereas Islam binds people together on the Aqeedah and Emaan. That is, belief in Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saws).

    Therefore grouping together on tribalistic lines is clearly forbidden. It is narrated by Abu Dawud that the Messenger of Allah (saws) said,"He is not one of us who calls for 'asabiyyah, (nationalism) or who fights for 'asabiyyah or who dies for 'asabiyyah."

    And in another hadith, the Messenger of Allah (saws) referring to nationalism,and patriotism said "Leave it, it is rotten". [Muslim and Bukhari]

    The Messenger of Allah (saws) also said, "The Muslims are like a body, if one part of the body hurts, rest of the body will also suffer" [Muslim] meaning that the Muslims, whether they are of Chinese, African, or Arabian or European origin, are one Ummah and they cannot be separated from each other. Furthermore, Allah (swt) says: "The faithful are but brothers..." [Qur'an 49: 10] . No nationalistic ties should ever break their unity. That is the beauty of Islam.

    Now the speech of Allah (swt) addressed to the Messenger (saws) is also a speech to his Ummah, unless specific evidence comes to restrict this. In this case, there is no such restriction, so it becomes obligatory for the
    Muslims to rule according to Islamic teachings. And ruling according to Islam leaves no room for nationalistic constitutions whatsoever because what is applied (and what forms the criteria for judgement) is the Book of Allah
    (swt) and the Sunnah of the Messenger (saws). Hence since Islam has prohibited nationalism, it becomes a duty of every
    Muslim, in the present situation, to work towards tearing down the nationalistic boundaries that are artificially created in Muslim lands, and to remove any obstacles which allow its propagation. And those who still uphold nationalism, remember what Allah (swt) says, " Those who oppose Allah's order have to be warned that a calamity may strike them or a painful doom may fall upon them." [Qur'an 24: 63]

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 20:14 #
  35. achtung
    Member

    aray bhai, pehlay apnay mulk ki fikar karo. siyasat ko mazhab sey alag karo. phir koi baat banay gi. verna issi tarah daldal mein phansey raho gey.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 20:15 #
  36. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    achtung, siyasat alag karne se ye haal ho gaya hai Bade Bhai. Maghreb ki taqleed me pagal ho gayi hai qaum. Paigambar ki ek Hadees shareef hai: ek zamana aayega jab Muslim kuffar ki itni taqleed karega yahan tak ke agar Kafir lizard ke hole me daakhil hone ki koshish karega to Muslim bhee wahi karne ki koshish karega baghair kuch soonche samjhe

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 20:20 #
  37. Bravo Abdul Rahman. Certainly I agree with your comments but on the other hand Pakistan is a nation state I will also agree with Patriot. Pakistanis who love their country and have patriotic feelings is out of love for Pakistan. There is no harm being a patriot.

    @Achtung. It is important for us Pakistanis to be aware of our enemies at all times. Islamic Republic of Pakistan and its citizens know what is good and favorable for them and Pakistan. Thanks for your advice.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 20:28 #
  38. singh isking
    Member

    1/3rd your country is already in flood so stop riding kasmir boat and conc. on affectees.your govt. reps are begging for relief aid and u guys are worried abt kasmir and try to figure out why in every crisis be it terrorism,economy ,natural disaster,pakistan need aid from world.
    Begging is worst of human situations.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 21:27 #
  39. Sweettruth,

    That's not really a 'sweet' thing to do. Keep religion out of political debates and if they do the same about your religion , don't complain.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 22:11 #
  40. Singh is King,

    Yes , true - begging is indeed demeaning.

    Btw ,what do you say about India seeking Pakistan's help to get back 33 Indian JAWANS who drifted to AJK after being hit by flash floods in Leh?

    Does that count as 'begging' too?

    Pakistanis are good at MULTITASKING. We are quite used to of handling multiple issues at a time. :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 22:15 #
  41. singh isking
    Member

    @natasha
    Btw ,what do you say about India seeking Pakistan's help to get back 33 Indian JAWANS who drifted to AJK after being hit by flash floods in Leh?

    that area is pakistan territory so they are asking help to search jawans in pakistan territory its matter of jurisdiction.it no way reflect their incapability.what i was saying was total failure of your govt. to do anything to flood victims.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 22:33 #
  42. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib-

    my comments are analytical based on what has happened in Kashmir. It is not a judgement from me because I cannot and I should not.

    I placed a quote from Shiekh Sa'adi.
    It is the Pushtoons who gave the most when they went to Kashmir and they got the little bit that we do have left.
    The issue is not that of martial race and I did not use that term.
    The issue is simply historical- events that have taken place. I did not make those events happen. The Kashmiris did.
    With 700000 Indian soldiers in Kashmir, stone throwing is going to get you exactly what it has gotten the Palestinians. And maybe that is what the Kashmiris want.
    As for me I want something much more tangible.

    With the Afghan Jihadis going into Kashmir and fighting the Indian forces- Did the Kashmiris rise as a people- No they did not.

    If the Kashmiris are serious about independence from India- a very simple action they can take.
    Block all roads coming into Kashmir from India.
    Let us see then what happens.

    Make believe stuff does not work in this world. It never has. It never will.
    Just ask Saddam Hussain !

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 22:46 #
  43. Failure of the government - Yes. We are not a super-power like you , you see. It's all perfect in your land. We are quite imperfect.

    ASKING FOR HELP is what matters Singh sahab! Jurisdiction noo dafa karo.

    We are not asking for help because we 'enjoy' doing that. We NEED it(Like YOU). There's no choice.We are a third world country. 1/3 of our land has been affected. Asking for help is nothing to be ashamed of. Yes , ill agree with you if you say we beg for other political or military reasons. This is for HUMANITY. So try being a HUMAN for sometime and not an INDIAN.

    King ban ke ghareebon ko bhool nahin jatay .Itni akarr achhi baat nahin =)

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 22:49 #
  44. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    ST says "With the Afghan Jihadis going into Kashmir and fighting the Indian forces"

    What is wrong with that? It happens everywhere where there is cry of Jihad.

    http://www.nwaonline.com/news/2010/aug/13/east-afghanistan-sees-more-foreign-milita-20100813/

    Lest you forget thousands of "foreign" mujahideen from all over the world especially Gulf countries were shaheed in the fight against Soviets. You may say it was Uncle Sam's strategy but it was really the magnet of Jihad.

    At this moment Kashmir Jihad is self contained and does not need lot of volunteers but when times comes they will surely get all the help they need. Still some of them are already there. If you don't know there is a graveyard exclusively for foreign fighters near Srinagar.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 23:03 #
  45. Shimatoree, I like that idea of yours about blocking all roads into Kashmir. I know by now you're someone who strives for tangible results in all human activity. And I'm sorry you didn't become a political leader instead of sticking to the occupation you chose. You'd probably have achieved more than most. But then look at your descent. You come from a people of action, par excellence.

    But most of us are not so gifted. We don't think things through. We daydream our way through life. And every so often wake up to reality and if that reality proves unbearable we hit out. And fear is also a big deterrent to taking far-reaching decisions. In that sense, then, one can consider the Kashmiris and Palestinians as failed peoples who have so far been unable to achieve anything to fulfil their aspirations. In another sense, though, as keepers of the bad conscience of the Muslim world, they have been resounding successes.

    You are right to say only the Punkhtoon managed to get us that part of Kashmir we now call Azad. If I remember aright, they were then told by our side not to go further so they stopped in their tracks and did not liberate the rest of the territories. Had they been allowed to go on, there would have been no Kashmir problem today.

    What make-believe stuff do you attribute to poor Saddam? Miscalculation, yes. Make-believe? It's the second time today I've had to rush to his defence. I see the west living in a make-believe world rather than the rest of humanity. But then that's a whole new chapter in the tale of illusion versus reality.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 23:11 #
  46. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib -

    In the year 2000, I had an opportunity provided to me where by I was to go to Iraq and meet Saddam Hussein. Due to one thing or another , I was not able to go and then came the invasion of Iraq by the West.

    I had made up a whole list of things that I was going to ask him but I shall carry that list with me to my grave.
    Such is the tyranny of Fate.

    Saddam Hussein was a dictator and a despot and a cruel man. But I do not blame him for all of that.

    What do I blame him for - well here is a list-

    1. When he invaded Kuwait, he should have done it in a planned manner and surrounded the entire country in a Blitzcrieg manner and thus trapped the thieves who were put in place by the British.

    2. He should have invaded and occupied the entire eastern Oil rich portion of Saudi Arabia and thus controlled the access to Gulf and all the Oil of the Area.

    If he had done that- there would have been no Desert Storm and if there had been no Desrt Storm- there would have been no invasion in 2003.

    I will again recite my favourite saying- from Mirabeau of the French Revolution-

    Quote " When Urgency nad decisiveness is of critical importance - most political leaders are timid in decision making . They forget the issue of timliness.
    The moment is lost. And so are the great opportunities to transform history" end of quote.

    It is always the Man that matter as most men do not matter at all. And the defects of the Man are exposed when he/or she is at full power.

    On another note- for some reason my mind is a lot sharper during Ramazan and a conversation( of sorts) with you brings out the best in my comments. Thanks for that.

    Posted 1 year ago on 13 Aug 2010 23:51 #
  47. Shimatoree, I couldn't be more in agreement with you. Saddam, I've said this before, was wholly a flawed hero. And his greatest failing was the faith he kept almost till the last in the friendship of the scheming, faithless US which had propelled him into power when he was more or less a callow youth. I, too, greatly regret you failed to meet Saddam though the opportunity had presented itself. How shall I put it. He was a flawed hero, but not a Great Man, the kind Mirabeau meant in those perfect words of his.

    Shimatoree, I also find your last paragraphs sum up the destinies of nations with absolute clarity. And it's what we are awaiting in our flood-drowned nation at the moment: the Man with an innate sense of timeliness and decisiveness.

    Dear Shimatoree, we started off somewhat awkwardly. Over time we have come to understand each other better and better. For that my utter gratitude. Long may your sharp mind illuminate these pages.

    Posted 1 year ago on 14 Aug 2010 12:16 #
  48. @To all supporters of this senseless idea of Kashmir Intifada

    Please guys do not engage/drag Pakistan into another Jihad; we have already paid and still paying heavy price for our involvement in Afghanistan Fasad of 1980s. Our country cannot afford another jihad business. Half a country is sunken into flood water, several millions are homeless facing terrible conditions and you guys are busy discussing another Jihad topi drama. It is very easy to write these Jihadi blood warming sentences from the comfort of your home but think how many millions will suffer if there is an Intifada in Kashmir. Sharam karo

    I bet none of you guys will go to physically participate in this Intifada topi drama. Don’t restrict yourself to cyber jihadi only. If you have so much desire for Jihad then go to Afghanistan, Chechnya and God knows wherever this jihad topi drama is happening. For God sake spare Pakistan now and no more Jihad drama for our nation.
    Stop this non sense

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 16:27 #
  49. ST, no one is promoting any jihad "drama" here or elsewhere. Deaths of innocent demonstrators are occurring in Kashmir. Afgahnistan has been occupied by the entire west of which a certain part has at least a bit of your support. All we're doing here is commenting on these events. How does that make us cyber jihadis? Do we accuse you of being CIA spies or whatever?

    Tolerance and trust are the keywords to harmonious living between members of the same nation. I know Pakistan is doing none too well in that department at present. But at least on this blog we could set an example of peaceful co-existence. Even if we back different solutions to our many problems. Or is that asking for too much?

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 17:06 #
  50. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    If you are calling yourself Muslims then you are duty bound to be aware of the plight of other Muslims all over the world not just Kashmir.

    Prophet SAS said: If you are not aware of the affairs of other Muslims you are not a Muslim.

    If you are identifying yourself based on nationalistic crap like pakhtoon giftoon then you can hide your head in the sand and pretend all is well and be happy and merry.

    BTW, Mujahideen in Kashmir are self sufficient and do not need the dole or sympathy of anyone, last not least the mercenary "help" of Pakistani army busy washing NATO toilets.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 17:44 #

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