PKPolitics Discuss » Social and Cultural Issues

Indus Valley Civilization Mohenjo-daro Harrappa

(66 posts)
  1. lota6177

    The Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) was a Bronze Age civilization (mature period 2600–1900 BCE) which centred mostly in the western part[1] of the Indian Subcontinent[2][3] and flourished around the Indus river basin. Primarily centered along the Indus and the Punjab region, the civilization extended into the Ghaggar-Hakra River valley[4] and the Ganges-Yamuna Doab,[5][6] encompassing most of what is now Pakistan, as well as extending into the westernmost states of modern-day India, southeastern Afghanistan and the easternmost part of Balochistan, Iran.

    The mature phase of this civilization is known as the Harappan Civilization as the first of its cities to be unearthed was the one at Harappa, excavated in the 1920s in what was at the time the Punjab province of British India (now in Pakistan).[7] Excavation of IVC sites have been ongoing since 1920, with important breakthroughs occurring as recently as 1999.[8]

    Lots of good pictures

    Moenjo-daro (Mound of the Dead, Sindhi: موئن جو دڙو ) was one of the largest city-settlements of the Indus Valley Civilization of south Asia situated in the province of Sind, Pakistan. Built around 2600 BCE, the city was one of the early urban settlements in the world, existing at the same time as the civilizations of ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Crete. The archaeological ruins of the city are designated a UNESCO World Heritage Site. It is sometimes referred to as "An Ancient Indus Valley Metropolis"[1].

    Harappa (pronounced /həˈræpə/; Urdu: ہڑپہ, Hindi: हड़प्पा) is an archaeological site in Punjab, northeast Pakistan, about 20 km (12 mi) west of Sahiwal. The site takes its name from a modern village is located near the former course of the Ravi River, some 5 km (3 mi) southeast of the site.

    The site contains the ruins of an Bronze Age fortified city, which was part of the Cemetery H culture and the Indus Valley Civilization, centered in Sindh and the Punjab.[1] The city is believed to have had as many as 23,500 residents—considered large for its time.

    In 2005 a controversial amusement park scheme at the site was abandoned when builders unearthed many archaeological artifacts during the early stages of construction work. A plea from the prominent Pakistani

    Posted 6 years ago on 29 Sep 2009 11:38 #
  2. Beenai

    and we are poor inheritors of a great Warsa.
    news of stealing antiques from museums is quite common and ignorable ,amongst killing,load shedding ,flour and sugar crisis and political leaders statements .

    Posted 6 years ago on 29 Sep 2009 12:04 #
  3. zjshami

    Unfortunately, the internal political situation of Pakistan contributed to kill the Tourism.
    Pakistan, once an attractive place for foreign tourists, has been turned into a dangerous and unhealthy recreational site.
    A very rich historical heritage and cultural activities are surviving under threat.
    Ultimately, Pakistan is not in a comfortable situation to generate money through tourism what would have been used to improve and preserve a very rich and attractive civilization.
    There are places in Pakistan which could be improvised to generate as much wealth as Taj Mahal, once we get out of Halal/Haram Debate.

    Posted 6 years ago on 29 Sep 2009 12:18 #
  4. Beenai

    when we will conquer Aagra ..we will get our Taj Mahal back.:):):)

    on a serious note .
    after getting fame as a terrorist state ..thanks to Mush and USA ...we are a loser nation at every front . so in tourism.

    tourism has been badly hit .
    and nobody wanna take risk of his/her life to see Indus valley culture .

    Posted 6 years ago on 29 Sep 2009 12:22 #
  5. lota6177

    These people in the past had a better standard of living than what a majority of people in Pakistan have today!

    A sophisticated and technologically advanced urban culture is evident in the Indus Valley Civilization making them the first urban centers in the region. The quality of municipal town planning suggests the knowledge of urban planning and efficient municipal governments which placed a high priority on hygiene, or, alternately, accessibility to the means of religious ritual.

    As seen in Harappa, Mohenjo-daro and the recently partially excavated Rakhigarhi, this urban plan included the world's first urban sanitation systems. Within the city, individual homes or groups of homes obtained water from wells. From a room that appears to have been set aside for bathing, waste water was directed to covered drains, which lined the major streets. Houses opened only to inner courtyards and smaller lanes. The house-building in some villages in the region still resembles in some respects the house-building of the Harappans.[35]

    The ancient Indus systems of sewerage and drainage that were developed and used in cities throughout the Indus region were far more advanced than any found in contemporary urban sites in the Middle East and even more efficient than those in many areas of Pakistan and India today. The advanced architecture of the Harappans is shown by their impressive dockyards, granaries, warehouses, brick platforms and protective walls.

    Posted 6 years ago on 29 Sep 2009 12:24 #
  6. Beenai

    yup u r right Lota .
    they were very cultured and civilized .
    no2.they were very keen into cleaning and bathing .
    they have very great Hammams .(huge Bath rooms)
    and at that point in time , the western side of the world use to be a filthy place .
    London streets use to be filled with filth .
    and people hardly care about bathing .

    now its so painful that situation is other way around.

    Posted 6 years ago on 29 Sep 2009 12:28 #
  7. quaidkamazaar

    So is north India included in this Indus Valley civilization?

    Posted 6 years ago on 29 Sep 2009 23:13 #
  8. quaidkamazaar

    Indus valley is part of north india.

    Posted 6 years ago on 30 Sep 2009 0:20 #
  9. Adonis

    Indus valley may be considered a part of North India if India is considered a sub-continent consisting of many countries as it has always been through history.

    It is not a part of north india if one is talking about india the country which never existed in its present form and is a creation of the British.

    Posted 6 years ago on 30 Sep 2009 5:57 #
  10. Anonymous

    Please never ever ever say this again
    "Indus valley is part of north india"
    You are hugely inaccurate in your statement.

    yes they had public hammam but those hammam were "public"....i-e no privacy..I wonder you want these in today's

    Posted 6 years ago on 30 Sep 2009 14:15 #
  11. JJ Khan

    Good catch.

    Posted 6 years ago on 30 Sep 2009 14:55 #
  12. Beenai

    @bsobaid ,
    having public hammas is better than having filthy beggars,dirty bus drivers and conductors ,smelly sweepers.

    Posted 6 years ago on 01 Oct 2009 10:07 #
  13. ayisha

    Indus valley civilization gets its name from River Indus (River Sindhu) persians and english that is why call it Indus - people who live around this area that's why were called Indians. So if Pakistan was not created by humans then you will all be called Indians as well. BTW when these civilizations existed there were not many religions, later then men created religions so we all can fight and kill each other lol.

    Posted 6 years ago on 16 Oct 2009 20:59 #
  14. Ghareeb


    Forget Indus Valley Civilization. After the advent of Islam with Shariah laws, all these pagan cultures and civilizations have no meaning and no relevance.

    Religion is indeed man made. The word deen in Islam is not even close to religion that is Western concept of Sunday worship. Islam is 24x7x365 way of life NOT "religion" and extends from before cradle to cradle to grave and after grave to infinity.

    Christian religion was man made named after Jesus Christ
    Hindu religion was man made named after Hind meaning a country
    Judaism is man made named after tribe of Judea
    Buddhiam is man made named after Buddha

    Islam was not named after any diety or nation or tribe but for those who submit to will of God Almighty. Attempts by Christians to call Muslims as Mohammadans just like they Christians named after Christ failed. Th ewhole world calls today the ones who submit to God as Muslims

    Posted 6 years ago on 16 Oct 2009 22:12 #
  15. quaidkamazaar

    thanks for your replies to my question, but i am still confused, i will try asking a more specific question now.

    were present day areas of India like Delhi, UP, Bhopal, Hyderabad, cities like Agra part of this great Indus Valley Civilization?

    This Mohenjo Daro period must have been long time ago! does it even have any significance for Pakistanis today?

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 2:47 #
  16. NNL

    I think this thread needs Mirza Sahib's attention as i think he is more qualified to speak on the subject of IVC.

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 6:24 #
  17. Bullay Shah

    the glorious past of the land known as Pakistan in modren times. this geographical area shown light of peace and greats religions to the rest of the world. this land resisted foreign oppressions and also accepted diversity of socio-cultral identities with their peaceful co-existence. all the foreigners who came with the intentions to conquered this land, were conquered by this land as their third generation became Indians in terms of their life styles...........

    the dilema of the time is, If someone talks to make this glorious past of Indus Civilization as part of Pakistan Studies in schools and colleges, he is viewed as "suspect" by the state and establishment!!!!

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 15:23 #
  18. lota6177

    Bulley Shah
    Excellent post! You very nicely summed it up. The remnants of Indus valley civilization is the untold story of the sons of this land that is our home.

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 15:35 #
  19. faisalabadsher

    quaidkamazaar, there have been many sites found in both pakistan and india. For example Lothal in gujarat was one of the largest cities in the civilization and Dholavira site was found only recently in the 90s.

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 16:12 #
  20. quaidkamazaar

    "the dilema of the time is, If someone talks to make this glorious past of Indus Civilization as part of Pakistan Studies in schools and colleges, he is viewed as "suspect" by the state and establishment!!!!"

    I think it is moreso because of the not so clear definition of Pakistan....

    should more attention be given to Pakistan's geographical roots and Indus Valley, or is it an identity for Muslims across the board from Peshawar to Dhaka?

    If Pakistan was made in the name of muslims of subcontinent, then Indus Valley Civilization holds no more significance for the state than just great archeological ruins.

    was East Pakistan, or rather Bangladesh today, also part of the Indus Valley Civilization?

    Pakistan is bigger than the Indus Valley Civilization thats why its not taught in textbooks. im open to hearing your views.

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 18:34 #
  21. lota6177

    We should be proud as Pakistanis that we had Indus valley civilization in 5500 BC and we are the next generation of civilized people and not barbarians. These archeological ruins are our history and point to our ancestors. It is a personal choice to honor and acknowledge them or disown them. If there are any doubts about this than they can be removed by taking ancestries DNA test. The genealogical DNA test is around $99.95 and will give you your ancestors for the last 6000 years. What is the harm in finding out whom we are and where we come from. Would you like to find out for yourself and share the results?

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 18:47 #
  22. quaidkamazaar

    Lota bhai, i think there is a big problem with this mindset,

    i believe it does not matter who our ancestors were in 5000 BC!!!

    what if i claim do not fall into this category of superior breed of son of the soil Indus Valley Civilization???

    I dont really need a DNA test to know where I come from my friend :) I am a descendant of those who migrated from across the border and there is a high possibility my ancestors were not even from this Indus Valley Superior breed. and how does it even matter where your ancestors came from kazzilion years ago? lol

    even if my ancestors were hindu, why does it matter?
    were not many of the sahaabas pbu them idol worshippers at one time.

    It does not matter where your roots are, it cannot make one any less Pakistani.

    Indus Valley civilization has nothing to do with Pakistan in its modern form.

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 21:11 #
  23. quaidkamazaar

    how does only being a descenant of this rather supreme civilization make you civilized today and not barbaric???

    that was the past in 5000BC, if Pakistanis were as civilized today as you claim, Pakistan would not be in such a mess.

    which people are you pointing to be barbaric?

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 21:21 #
  24. lota6177

    Heritage refers to something which is inherited from one's ancestors. It has several different senses, including: Natural heritage, Cultural heritage, Tradition, Values, ideals, Heredity, historical Kinship, culture, high culture and inheritance. There are reasons to be proud of your heritage and to totally ignore it. What you choose to be your identity is your personal choice. Some of us find reasons to be proud of our heritage while others have valid reasons to totally disown it.
    The definition of civilized and barbaric is pretty simple and can be looked up in a dictionary. Civilized people live a civilized life and barbarians conduct themselves in the opposite manner. I am sure every individual knows which group he belongs to and if there is any ambiguity about the identity than reading these definitions will remove it.

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 21:30 #
  25. lota6177

    some more related pictures

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 22:11 #
  26. quaidkamazaar

    i know what civilized means,
    i know what barbaric means,
    you sound like my x-3rd grade teacher lol.

    i can be a descendant of royal Mughal Emperor Shahjahaan,
    or i can be a descendant of dalits or achoots.
    it does not matter even one bit,
    i will still remain me! thanks for recommending the DNA test but it wont make a difference.

    pride does not come from where my forefathers were in 5000 BC, pride comes from the fact that i submit to Allah rather.

    no one needs to disown their identity just because they dont have the "right" genes... thats racist. To me, a South Indian malayalam Tamil speaking muslim is equal to me, indus valley civilization never comes into the story.

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 22:23 #
  27. lota6177

    The attitude of submitting to Allah is also a created religious identity according to your perception and interpretation which you are touting to being a superior identity in contrast to being proud of your heritage. While I am being labeled racist you are being subjective yourself to the same factors and are marketing a similar product achieved by the same method. If you want to debate the superiority of a certain identity than let’s create a separate thread and try to keep this thread on topic which is the Indus civilization. I somehow agree with you that when a civilized person labels another person a barbarian. I can see how the barbarian cries racism since it has become a derogatory term even though the intention maybe is to classify and not to malign. Maybe we need to invent a new word that lets a barbarian be proud to be a barbarian and also comfortably own up to it. When these words were invented by the Greeks they were to illustrate culture of a social group. I am using these words in the same way as originally intended.

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 22:40 #
  28. zia m

    Mehrgarh civilization in Balochistan is even older than Indus Valley.It is believed to be from Neolithic period(7000 BCE).
    The science magazine Nature had published an article on evidence of human drilling of teeth during that period.
    It is simply fascinating.

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 23:34 #
  29. lota6177

    zia m
    That is a wonderful post and I am reading about it. What I find amusing is that the civilizations we had 9000 years ago were using dental tools and public baths and we after having 9000 years to evolve are using electric pliers to pull teeth at railway stations and open fields at night as open air bathrooms. There are places in Pakistan where the public does not shower in the winter months due to no access to hot water or low access to water. People now are living like barbarians when our ancestors where leading civilized lives in truly multicultural societies nine centuries ago. Somewhere down the line things went down instead of going up..

    Posted 6 years ago on 18 Oct 2009 23:47 #
  30. quaidkamazaar

    lota, it seems like you believe in being proud of your heritage, thats great.
    but may i put forth my opinion,
    Pakistan is not a biproduct of this Indus Valley Civilization, it is moreso a biproduct of many nationalities of many languages encompassing thousands of km across subcontinent fighting together for their rights. just imagine QuaideAzam with gujrati roots giving an enthralling speech in English to Pukhtoons who dont understand a single word coming out from his mouth but still know that he is right and trust him.

    anyways, you have the right to maintain your pride, If I as an urduspeaker who opened his eyes in Pakistan starts thinking too much about his forefathers like you, i would have to make a pilgrimage to India every couple of years and things wont work out ;)

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 1:56 #
  31. zia m

    There is saying in Indonesia.
    Bhinneka tungal ika...Unity in diversity.

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 2:17 #
  32. lota6177

    Was Quaid azam a nationalist leader or a religious leader?
    You made a comment earlier that your forefather's were foreign invaders to the subcontinent so what is the place you consider home?
    Indus valley civilization, ghandara civilization and Mehrgarh civilization were multicultural civilizations. Your vocabulary and world view has words fighting together instead of living together.
    My home in Pakistan is paradise to me. I don’t need to go on a pilgrimage anywhere to look for heaven. I am already there. I hope you have good luck finding yours.
    I am not asking you to think or imagine about your forefathers. They are who they are and imagining superman as dada aba does not change who he is. Facing reality is your own choice.
    Newayz try to stay on the topic of this thread or make a new thread if you want to furthur disscuss it.

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 2:24 #
  33. Bullay Shah

    To, Quaidkamazar,

    even if we accept your illusion about Pakistan "created in the name and for the cause of Islam", there is no justification for the enmity with your heritage.

    "Elam dushmani" reflects a particular mindset. burning or erasing the books of history is sometimes that was done by Halako Khan, the barbarian Mangol. the same job is done by so-called religious fanatics these days, unfortunately.

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 2:40 #
  34. Zia m : Mehrgarh civilization in Balochistan is even older than Indus Valley.
    Lota6177: We should be proud as Pakistanis that we had Indus valley civilization in 5500 BC and we are the next generation of civilized people and not barbarians.
    The above members are keen for a discussion and are able to comment through posts that are relevant to archeology.

    For others I must say that if you are able to contribute according to the topic that calls for a discussion related to archeology and prehistory than pls do so. If you can’t than pls move on as this thread is not a proper place where you can twist this topic towards anything else.

    Coming back to the topic, Mehrgarh in Balochistan is also connected to Sestan (Iran) through archeological finds including pottery shreds also found from Oman and UAE are strikingly similar to Mehrgarh.

    Bahrain and Failaka (Kuwait) were known outposts of a marine trade route from IV to Uruk (Iraq of today) - the Sumerian civilization. (Bahrain is also known as Tylos, Delmon and Awal-as we know from the cuneiform tablets mentioning a Sumerian king Gilgamesh and his travels up to Bahrain in quest of a ‘flower of life’ as he wished to attain eternity).

    Bahrain holds some ancient records of trade products from IVC in the form of a receipt (tablet) specially mentioning bars of copper as the main item. Standard weights for weighing and cylindrical as well as coin shaped seals carrying the famous ‘humped bull’ impression relate them to Sindh Pakistan. Cylindrical seals are also found in large number from the Sumerian sites.

    IVC was not connected to Aryans in any way. Similarly what was their religion cannot be confirmed as till date. However there have been attempts to link IVC it to Vedic civilization but the fact is IVC is pre Vedic. Even the bull impression on one of the seals was converted into a horse using graphics software but this was found out as an attempt to falsify historic records and strongly refuted at an international level.
    The point was that IVC is a ‘horse less’ civilization while a horse figures prominently in Aryan records. A link could only be established this way as there is no such find till date that links a horse with IVC.

    One more thing that bothers me the most is the presence of at least one ‘Ethiopian alphabet’ on IVC seals. We know the presence of a Bloch tribe that celebrates at Mangoo Peer Shrine in Karachi, every year. Rituals are more or less tribal and connects the Makrani race of Baluchistan to mainland Africa. A similar tribe is found in Gujarat-India.

    Why not work out and find more about an IVC symbol that is a mirror image of one Ethiopian alphabet!

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 8:11 #
  35. Achoota

    good semirza. I agree with you that Aryans were more connected to horses and IVC was a horse less. I also agree that Bull had more importance in IVC because i have been to remains and it looks like Bull dominated some how.
    Can you please help me on below two areas. I thank you for taking the thread in right direction.

    A: Do you believe Vedic and IVC were connected some how? i agree known history starts vedic civilization around 3000 BC while IVC is 5000 BC but there is a possibility what we see in Vedic is originated in IVC. (I am not sure so asking your guidance)
    B: The African connection of Makranis is an interesting part, can you point out some resources here. Makran was a coastal area but travelling up to IVC will be an interesting hypothesis.:)
    Thanks again for your contribution

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 11:14 #
  36. lota6177

    Indus Script
    How come we can't decipher the Indus script?
    'Earliest writing' found
    Claims Concerning the Longest Indus 'Inscription'
    The Indus and Dravidian Cultural Relationship
    Collection of essays about the Indus script

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 17:43 #
  37. Mr Lota,
    I am really impressed by your research work.
    It is a tough job to find out the related material and put it at the right place.
    All the links helped me to learn more about Indus Valley civilization.
    Thank you.

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 18:26 #
  38. lota6177

    Your most welcome.

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 18:37 #
  39. Ghareeb

    Research to probe into civilizations of yester years is fine as long as it helps the long term vision but there should be limit. This kind of research should reinforce the belief in Islamic civilization that superceded and surpassed all these materialistic civilizations.

    If we don't put limit we are prone to dwelve into same mentality that destroyed those civilizations. The Egyptians are too much fascinated by ancient Egypt so much so that their leadership and intelligentia have taken an arrogant behavior trying to resurrect the character of Pharoah in their day to day life. Same goes for the late Shah of Iran who identified himself with ancient Iran than Islam and you witnessed the devastating end of that tinpot dictator.

    Pakistanis should be thankful to the Creator of being Muslims and refrain from identifying with IVC or any other pagan civilizations however advanced they were.

    The research and nostalgic identification with the bygone civilizations was an attempt to colonise and inculcate nationalism among Muslim peoples. Prior to the colonial onslaught, nationalsim was an alien philosophy in Muslim world. Even Saudis are trying to identify with some pagan cultures and civilizations that were present in that peninsula to promote "saudi" nationalism.

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 18:41 #
  40. lota6177

    Do you have the ability to follow simple directions? Go up and read simple directions given by semirza. Make a new thread if you are interested in off topic discussion.
    The above members are keen for a discussion and are able to comment through posts that are relevant to archeology.

    For others I must say that if you are able to contribute according to the topic that calls for a discussion related to archeology and prehistory than pls do so. If you can’t than pls move on as this thread is not a proper place where you can twist this topic towards anything else.

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 18:51 #
  41. lota6177

    Please share your views here

    Posted 6 years ago on 19 Oct 2009 23:22 #
  42. I believe what our member lota6177 reminded our other members not to post other than IVC was not enough. I am forced to take out their posts all together. You know anything about IVC good enough. Want to turn it into you favourite topics of Khilafah, Muslims etc and keep bickering endlessly, than I have to take action now. Your off topic posts after a reminder by lota are being taken care of. Do not post if you have no knowledge of IVC as this topic deals strictly with archeology and prehistory.

    Posted 6 years ago on 20 Oct 2009 14:50 #
  43. Desi American

    Hi all, I found this link on Indus valley and harrapa civilzation

    Posted 6 years ago on 26 Oct 2009 1:31 #
  44. The link provided is an attempt to link IVC with hindus. Well that is not the case as their religion is not known yet or if they ever had a religion at all. This discssion calls for a discussion based on recorded evidence supported by science, archeology and prehistory, not mere fabrications and assumptions.

    Posted 6 years ago on 26 Oct 2009 8:56 #
  45. Desi American

    With due respect, please see wikipedia on Indus valley civilisation below, These existed around 2600 BCE to 1300 BCE, Maurayan Empire existed after that in the area in 321–184 BCE, then other empires including Gupta empire in 280–550 CE. Islam only came into the area after 1206 A.D. During Mauryan Empire Ashoka & Chandragupta Maurya followed Jainism and Buddism, and their kingdom extended from parts of Afghanistan to all the way till Bengal and to South India. Hinduism is more the way of living spiritually for eg. Karma, etc. People can be a hindu or whatever religion and still be a muslim if he keeps the true faith like Abraham (its also mentioned in Quran). Regards

    Posted 6 years ago on 26 Oct 2009 16:44 #
  46. @Desi American
    We do not need wiki or depend on it. Go through the posts and than we may discuss. We are not concerned with hinduism as it is offtopic here and not relevant to thread topic at all. IVC is prevedic and take this as a clue for further discussions if there would be any and should be based on solid research of your own and if not of known researchers.

    Posted 6 years ago on 26 Oct 2009 17:41 #
  47. lota6177

    The story of India - amazing BBC documentary series part (1 of 7)

    amazing documentary by Michael woods. Things will never be the same after watching this documentary Must watch! Valueable Information about Indus Valley civlization. Not to be missed. Use the watch on youtube option to see it on a bigger screen. Right click on the video to see that option.

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 14:51 #
  48. @lota6177
    Nice to see you on a thread regarding IVC.
    I hope member will have an informative discussion on this topic that is so fascinating but equally shrouded in mystery. Much has to be discovered regarding IVC!

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 15:31 #
  49. aftab

    @ Semirza

    I need your help, i am in moderation for all comments i post on the main PKP side.

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 15:37 #
  50. lota6177

    Good to see you too, I myself find this subject very fascinating and I am always looking forward to any new information on this subject.

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 15:42 #
  51. Thanks. So lets us discuss some possible answers as to a couple of questions such as:

    -Incoming land/marine routes leading towards/up to the Indus Valley are greater in number than outgoing routes from the Indus Valley itself.
    -Indus valley had more to do with civilizations that existed on its north and west rather than south and east?

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 16:10 #
  52. lota6177

    who are the ivc people?
    Their cities were carefully planned and laid out; they are, in fact, the first people to plan the building of their cities. Whenever they rebuilt their cities, they laid them out precisely in the same way the destroyed city had been built. The pathways within the city are laid out in a perpendicular criss-cross fashion; most of the city consisted of residences.
    Life in the Harappan cities was apparently quite good. Although living quarters were cramped, which is typical of ancient cities, the residents nevertheless had drains, sewers, and even latrines. There is no question that they had an active trade with cultures to the west. Several Harappan seals have been found in excavations of Sumerian cities, as well as pictures of animals that in no way could have existed in Mesopotamia, such as tigers. There is not, however, a wealth of Mesopotamian artifacts in Harappan cities.
    comment : They left their marks all the way up to mesipotamia/Iraq and borders of arabia. The sumerian civilization had Harappan seals. When the IVC cities were dying due to the river drying out they moved and built new cities on the banks of rivers in India. This was a global civilization.

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 16:40 #
  53. zia m

    Interesting article!
    IVC shall remain a mystery until one can decipher the language.

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 16:53 #
  54. So far so good. Now was there any other civilization predating harappan civilization who used burnt bricks?

    A link between IV and Tylos/Delmon/Awal has been established where seals with images of an ox are common.

    From there to Failaka (Kuwaiti owned Islands) and than onwards to Uruk....

    Harappan seals also bear a symbol that is actually an alphabet from an ancient language! This language was and still is very much alive in a distant land across the ocean on mainland Africa.

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 16:59 #
  55. lota6177

    All humans migrated out of Africa, the DNA evidence tells us that. The symbol of ox has been used by a lot of ancient civlizations in Africa. They even used to wear two ox horns on the side of their head in religious ceremonies. Those two ox horns later became a two point cap with time. There are bush people today in Africa that have language that is composed of tongue clicking sounds. The bajans of aryans/barhamins have poems in a language that comes only from songs of birds. It would be interesting to see if any dna testing has been done on IVC skeltons. The Tylos/Delmon/Awal+ivc civilization for me is pointing towards the first or second migration of humans out of africa that came out of africa to arabia and than towards india, central asia, siberia and America.
    Result of a yahoo search

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 17:16 #
  56. Egyptian civilization (another river civilization) had links with todays Ethiopia, Ethiopia with Yemen, Yemen with Oman (Maluha)and Oman with Baluchistan! It all adds up.

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 17:31 #
  57. lota6177

    yes the Ox symbol was and is really big it Ethopia. Ethopia operated as a bread basket for the egyptions.

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 17:33 #
  58. Agreed. But the symbol is about a fish standing on its tail. Exactly as it is still found as an alphabet of Ethiopian language. This is what is found on many of IVC seals!

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 17:37 #
  59. lota6177

    IVC had more than 400 different symbols. If one comes from ethopia there still are 399 more to explain. There is suppose to be a new book coming out Corpus of Indus Seals and Inscriptions vol 3 that will include new never before seen pictures of the IVC seals.
    We do not know how the writing evolved. I think it was as the trade developed, writing was necessary. Writing was already known in Mesopotamia. So if I am trying to develop writing in my country, it is not necessary that I should use your symbol. I will give you an example. I went to Korea, and there I started reading a Korean book. The moment I saw their alphabet I said what is this alphabet? They said this is an alphabet invented by our King in the 15th century A.D. I said nonsense, I can tell you the whole origin from my country! But what has happened, they have not taken the syllables from my country, but based on that they have evolved their own symbols, perhaps done even better, with verticals and horizontals. Where we have got circles, they don't have circles at all. Wherever there was a curved circle, they made it a vertical. I said I can trace this.
    indigenous development on the basis of the basic principle [from Western Asia]. Because we do not find development from the pictograph right up to the logo-syllabic writing that we know was used in the Indus Civilization. We do not find the earlier one, which is known to us in Mesopotamia, it is known to us in Egypt. Here we find directly logo-syllabic writing. Hence, they must have known about the logo-syllabic writing then in use in Mesopotamia with whom they had trade connections, and then evolved their own, on the same basis. This is what I am maintaining: that as we do not find from the simple pictograph developing into logo-syllabic in Indus Civilization, but we find it in Mesopotamia, and therefore some wise man, some intellectual here in this region must have known that here is a system of writing, why not evolve our own on the same basis.

    Q: It may just be that we haven't excavated enough to find the development.

    Quite possible, that is no doubt true, tomorrow we may find something and change our opinion.

    Posted 5 years ago on 11 Mar 2010 17:55 #
  60. Answer to your question that not enough has been excavated as of yet is a yes because there are many sites waiting to be excavated and whatever we would discover in this process will change our opinions.

    Literary and archeological evidence exists that links IVC and Mesopotamia with Bahrain museum (known as Delmun or Tilmun-first appeared mentioned on a clay tablet in cuneiform script and discovered from a temple of goddess Inanna - Uruk that is today’s Iraq) holds an ancient record of trade with IV mentioning bars of copper. Bahrain obviously served as a stopover where seafaring traders from IVC replenished their freshwater supplies along with exchange of trade goods.
    You are correct to say Harappan clay seals were an identification mark that has much to do with various traders and trade than a language. Reverse side of these seals carry ropes marks or sack impressions carrying trade goods.

    Posted 5 years ago on 12 Mar 2010 6:41 #

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