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Is “qoumi-ghairat” a relevant concept when dealing with other nations?

(21 posts)
  1. Is “qoumi-ghairat” a relevant concept when dealing with other nations?
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    In a recent episode of “Awam Ki Adalat” on Geo Television, topic of “Ghairat” was extensively debated, but for me it still left something to be desired. PPP and most left wingers as portrayed by Imtiaz Alam tried to spin “Ghairat” by talking about honor killings etc but the debate was about the concept of “Ghairat (honor)” in a different context i.e. should “Ghairat” be a consideration when making international decisions?

    Well, before one can make a choice on whether “ghairat” should be a consideration when making dealing with other nations/countries, we need to clearly define what does “ghairat” mean in international relations. Those interested in international relations and geo-politics understand that nations don’t have permanent friends or permanent enemies, they only have permanent interests and where interests of two nations align with each other, that’s when they become friends and vice versa. So logically all nations must look after their interests and in my opinion those who don’t look after their national interest or compromise on their national interest are the ones that deserved to be labeled as “be-ghairat”.

    Our leaders have displayed “be-ghairatee” on numerous occasions and surprisingly those that have been the staunch supporters of “ghairat” have displayed more “be-ghairatee” then those that have opposed it. Zia ul Haq, a military dictator who was a big on “ghairat” but in reality he was a complete American toady, in fact so much so that it was on American behest that he overthrew a democratically elected government of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and eventually hanged him which is unanimously considered a judicial murder by Pakistanis. After Zia, let’s look at the era of Nawaz Sharif, another one of those leaders who sold “ghairat cool aid” to further his political agenda, it was under his regime that an American lawyer said “Pakistanis are people that sell their mother for a few thousand dollars”. Than comes Musharraf , another so called nationalist military dictator whose slogan was “Pakistan first” but was completely flattened by one phone call from Washington.

    Currently Pakistan is ruled by a democratically elected government of PPP, and it seems like it’s their duty to defend their corruption, incompetence and total failure under the pretext of pragmatism. PPP has adopted a different approach, they are trying to prove to the people Pakistan that ever increasing foreign debt and gap between rich and poor combined with a total surrender of Pakistan’s foreign policy to US is in fact the proper way to move forward, keep in mind this is the same party whose leader Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto preferred gallows over accepting American hegemony. Off course PPP is not alone in selling this idea to masses, military establishment is completely backing PPP, in fact military establishment is more of a culprit because they control Pakistan’s foreign policy.

    It seems that regardless of which form of government we have in Pakistan, all of them have one thing in common which is a complete surrender to US. From democracy to dictatorship, from left wing to the right wing, they all share this common trait. Right wing displays hypocrisy by selling “Ghairat cool aid” to masses but also has an under the table hand shake with US and left wing has been a complete sell out on it’s founding principle of Islamic socialism and self reliance while military establishment is a complete American toady as displayed by Kayani, and his predecessors.

    Let me use an example of Palestinian and Israeli conflict, during the negotiations between Yasir Arafat and Israeli leader, Yasser Arafat was given an option to accept Israeli proposal of selective Palestinian autonomy, well, if you put on a pragmatic hat and think about it, Yasir would have accepted the deal, but when you extensively research and study the deal offered to him you would realize that it was not offering Independence to Palestinians but rather pushing them further in to the depths of slavery and oppression as this deal gave them no control over their own security, trade and development etc. Arafat very wisely rejected the deal as he kept his national interest intact.

    Now, let’s look at Cuba, a tiny nation about 70 miles off the coast of Florida, it just defies logic how they have managed to keep themselves out of any influence from a world biggest super power. By the way, it is ruled by a communist government which is an epitome of left wing. Also, look at China, they always keep their national interest a head of anything else as seen in examples given by Wusatullah Khan in “Awam Ki Adalat”, China is Pakistan’s friend but their largest trading partner is India. Wusatullah Khan actually was trying to justify that Ghairat has no role when making international decisions but unknowingly he was strengthening the argument for “ghairat”.

    We need a competent, honest and a brave government that keeps our own national interest ahead when dealing with other nations and that to me is true display of “ghairat”.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 5:45 #
  2. SufiSoul
    Member

    such threads reminds us all that we dont know what is ghairat and completly blank about this word ghairat.....
    Ghairat is and was never debatable like the universal truth cannot be changed nor debated....
    I feel sorry for where we stand.....

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 6:10 #
  3. quaidkamazaar
    Member

    very well written great thoughts. but i think you should look at our case in isolation from other countiries maybe. Pakistan has gone through some really weird phases from its own breaking into half to Afghan war. there is an element of self destruction involved in addition to not having "ghairat" to face others.
    you should get A for your grade for this article :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 6:12 #
  4. bsobaid
    Member

    Bhai jaan, Ghairat-o-hummiat should be demonstrated in the context of Awami welfare, not where some random dreamy ideas of a group are induced in the awam as Ghairat naak matters.

    I dont agree with Cuban example. What did their ghairat bring to their awam? They awam still live in abject poverty.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 15:27 #
  5. Yes the same awam that was promised roti, kapra our makan. Yeh khudai wa'ada bhi khuda ki raza say aik insan (bhutto) kay zariey injam ko pahunchta laikin aitami program our us per kisinger ki dahmki! Bhutto ko mehngi pari. Baki sab darama hia.
    Most of the muslim countries pleaded Zia not to hang Bhutto but American puppet Zia won't budge.
    Qoumi ghairat to fouri insaf ki alam bardar hai. On the spot jo bhi awam bikaou mall say ker guzray gi, wohi insaf ho ga.
    Police and Judiciary are the biggest hurdles to achieve that. You have to defang them by changing all of the Indian Penal Code (Ta'azerat-e-hind) that we inherited as a post colonial hotspot - Pakistan.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 15:57 #
  6. bsobaid
    Member

    Ok, so I keep hearing complaints against Indian Penal code. I think the complaints are rooted from the word "Indian", "British" and 1857.

    Is there something inherently wrong in them? any specific examples please?

    The complaints I do hear mostly are about laws that were adopted (enforced) after Pakistan was built such as hudood ordinance etc.

    I again say, Any ghairat-o-hummiat that does not directly benefit awam is mere rhetoric and emotional blackmailing.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 16:08 #
  7. SufiSoul
    Member

    I dont agree with Cuban example. What did their ghairat bring to their awam? They awam still live in abject poverty.

    /////////////////////////////////////////
    whereare doodh and shehad ki nehrain in Pakistan by adopting beghairti as a policy........???/

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 16:14 #
  8. bsobaid
    Member

    Sufi, That has more to do with our incompetence.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 16:24 #
  9. shirazi
    Member

    @Thought Felon

    I agree with the notion that gharut/be-gharti or national dignity/indignity is not the focal point in international relations, it's national interest. I have little reservation on some of the examples you have quoted.

    In my opinion Mushraaf sided with Americans on Sep 12th, 2001 not because of gharaut or begharti but because of national interest as he perceived. Similarly Zia joined Afghan war based on national interest not national dignity or indignity.

    Personally I may not agree with both decisions but if they back fire I can't just switch the notion behind them as gharut or begherati.

    I believe trained civil bureaucrats try to stay away from gharut cool aid as per books but they are dragged into this debate by Generals and Politicians who eventually call the shots and try to get domestic political mileage out of strictly national and technical subject - Foreign Affairs.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 16:29 #
  10. Is there something inherently wrong in them? any specific examples please?

    The 1973/4 constitution of Pakistan itself because it still retains the same draconian laws set in favour of/for a colonial rule on pre-partitioned subcontinent as well as post partitioned Pakistan and India!

    Was Bhutto blind or not wise enough to see through all this? One who was quick to say 'don't teach me politics'? He might have been a nationalist but what about his cabinet that was almost all feudual, headed by a feudal - himself.

    Why the same nonsense for an independent Pakistan where a thaney dar and a patwari rules?

    Hudood ordinance can/should be discussed later. First lets discuss why bhutto overlooked and failed to ammend the penal code of/for Pakistan?

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 16:35 #
  11. bsobaid
    Member

    Bhutto was an ullo kaa patha. Does that make you happy Mirza?

    This question is too important to be discussed in the context of personalities and I wont defend or criticize personalities and parties.

    Yes, I have heard bad things about patwari system but dont have much knowledge about it.

    I do have some knowledge about Deputy Commissioner system and that was certainly a yaadgaar of foreign rule but that was replaced by a more awami Nazim system.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 17:19 #
  12. shirazi
    Member

    @bsobaid

    "Bhutto was an ullo kaa patha."

    LOL

    You asked for specific he gave you specific. Now your additional plea is let's discuss '73 constitution but not framers of constitution :)

    Would you apply same principle in discussing policies originating in Ayub, Zia, Nawaz Sharif or Musharaaf's era?

    Cool down Bud! In politics policies and personalities go hand-in-hand.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 17:29 #
  13. bsobaid
    Member

    I wont discuss personalities at all because I am not here to hang someone or crown someone.

    Constitution was signed by all political parties of Pakistan and the committee for constitution included all political parties.

    same is the case with 18th amendment which was made in agreement with all political parties but as I said I am not here to pin point the responsibles. I am here to understand the problem and think of a solution. We dont necessarily need to convert everything into Rana Sanaullah.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 17:57 #
  14. shirazi
    Member

    @bsobaid

    Good point. I am with you, just keep this 'shared responsibility' in mind before opening new thread on Shahbaz Sharif. We will overlook all the threads that you opened on Shahbaz Sharif's policies not personalities :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 18:03 #
  15. Is not this a historical fact that Bhutto, a feudal came to power through an impartial/fair national election held by a military dictator Yahya.

    What happened to Awami league who won the most seats? (Regardless of from where it won because Pakistan was Pakistan consisting of both wings East and West).

    What we witnessed later were long lines for flour, sugar, kerosene (ration cards) like we are at war! What happened to the roti plants that used American aid (maxipak atta) a blunder to invest for the sham plants and the product 'chamra numa roti'?

    Why he failed miserably for bringing in his Promised Land reforms?

    Qoumi ghairat us waqt ghas charney gai hoei thee jub qoum say 'satwaiN Amriki Behri Bairey' kay a'aney per qoum ko gumrah kiya gaya tha?

    A'aj aik our bayhouda na'ara gardish main hai keh ' Jamhooriyat BehtaraiN Intiqam hai'...Wah, kiya kehney haiN

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 18:36 #
  16. bsobaid
    Member

    No, wrong point Shirazi.

    If Shabaz explains suicide bombs on Pakistanis in the context of Drone attacks then it is his responsibility not a shared one.

    Similarly, high inflation is PPP's federal government's responsibility.

    All cases are unique and needs to be seen in perspective. The difference here is many on this forum are doing malakhra rather than a discussion and they are here to support their parties and criticize rival party rather than understanding problems and presenting solutions. This is evident from this current discussion where instead of identifying and understanding the problems in Penal code we are discussion Bhutto and shabaz.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 18:43 #
  17. SufiSoul
    Member

    Sufi, That has more to do with our incompetence.

    ///////////////////////////////
    beghairti leads towards incompetence,corruption,frauds actually........

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 20:15 #
  18. scandinavian
    Member

  19. scandinavian
    Member

    I have just seen the program. Marvi and especially Haroon Rasheed were spot on explaining the concept of ghairat. The creatures called Imtiaz Alam and his lota companion confused the concept of ghairat to an extent that I have no trust in Imtiaz and co. Imtiaz is in fact a person I have disliked from the first time I listened to him. I have no doubt either that he is one of those corrupt "danishwar" who have sold their soul to the Yankees. Remember the Yankees have a clear cut policy to buy such scvumbags.

    Btw, if I dislike a person more than Najam Sethi, then it is Imtiaz Alam.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 20:48 #
  20. scandinavian
    Member

    The host also did a bad job. In fact he helped Imtiaz "Scvumbag" and lota to confuse the whole issue.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Apr 2011 20:54 #
  21. jaypk
    Member

    qaumi ghairat gaeee tayl laynay...hum qaum thoree hain...hum to majmaa hain..bheer hain..rush hain.........mazhabi ghairat hay na hum main...kaafi naee kia?

    Posted 1 year ago on 20 Apr 2011 2:30 #

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