Is a member of a minority faith as Pakistani as a muslim Pakistani?

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Is a member of a minority faith as Pakistani as a muslim Pakistani?

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gv
Member

Many members go on banging the religion card when it comes to Pakistan.

Does this mean if you are Christian, Hindu, Parsi, Sikh, Buddhist etc you any less Pakistani?

Thoughts please?

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 14:50 #
LifeH2O
Member

I asked my friend that why people don't drink water by hands of a christian. He said that they are right to do so because christians live dirtily, they used to drink a lot (as they are allowed to drink) and involve in all European like activities.

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 15:15 #
gv
Member

@life

that's not entirely what i was after but thank you for the effort.

The point I'm trying to make is that in a succesful society - EVERY individual should have the same rights and legal status - black/white/yellow, rich/poor, christian/hindu/muslim. Even those awful HT activists would have to be treated fairly.

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 15:16 #
Not Possible
Blocked

its the religous nuts all they want is power and they abuse Islams name to get it or want to get it

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 16:48 #
shafiq12
member

The point I'm trying to make is that in a succesful society - EVERY individual should have the same rights and legal status - black/white/yellow, rich/poor, christian/hindu/muslim. Even those awful HT activists would have to be treated fairly.

Such a society doesn't exist in any part of world.... Are you sleeping... So why you are hopeful about a succesful society in place where hypocrisy always rules....
==========================================
NP

its the religous nuts all they want is power and they abuse Islams name to get it or want to get it

You are also religious.... Always defending your beliefs... See yourself in the mirror of yourown statement...

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:05 #
shafiq12
member

I asked my friend that why people don't drink water by hands of a christian. He said that they are right to do so because christians live dirtily, they used to drink a lot (as they are allowed to drink) and involve in all European like activities.

Ignorance isn't crime.... You should educate your friend.... Perhaps you with your friends like ignorance...

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:07 #
gv
Member

@oblivion

"Such a society doesn't exist in any part of world.... Are you sleeping... So why you are hopeful about a succesful society in place where hypocrisy always rules...."

so what's your point?

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:11 #
Not Possible
Blocked

Yes Oblivion I am religous but not an extremist

I argue against religion becoming a means of suppresion,

all those who want khilafat do not want a true Islamic system based upon justice and equality

what they want is power,
the capacity to do ayashi, fahashi and badmashi and dehshat which khilafat was for majority of its term under Ummayad and Abbasid Kahilfat

a true Islamic society based on Ahkams of Allah would provide justice, to all, rights for all. protection against persecution and from oppresion for all

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:21 #
shafiq12
member

gv
point is simple.....
hypocirsy is greatest vulture which always feed on the lives of poor or viticms... and majority of pakistanis today are hypocrites.... I am sorry to say but it is the truth..... See they don't want to leave religion because it provides them an everlasting joy...... and at the same time they don't want leave hypocrisy.. why because hypocrisy provides them a luxurious life on earth...... See two birds with one stone... But they aren't smart enough.... They aren't deceiving anyone but themselves...... The society which you are looking buddy!!!!can only exist in a place free of hypocrisy...

Many members go on banging the religion card when it comes to Pakistan.

Are you sure those members aren't hypocrite...

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:22 #
Not Possible
Blocked

In Islam hypocricy i.e. munafiqat is worse than kufar and Oblivion your right many are munafiq abusing religion to serve their heinous and greedy desires

theirs are the worst crimes of all as they abuse Allahs religion for their lusts, all sorts including power.

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:24 #
gv
Member

@oblivion

so is it safe to say you agree with me that christians, hindus and other minorities are as much Pakistani as the muslim Pakistanis are and we should all strive as a society/community to achieve equality for all?

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:27 #
LifeH2O
Member

I was just trying to explain how people think about minorities, other then christians non-shia friends often tell very strange stuff about shias too.
One is that don't eat from shias even on their ceremonies because they give eatables to non shias after spitting on them.
Don't go in a mosque of bralvi/deo bandi/
Don't read the books of .... or you will become one of them (a heller)

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:30 #
gv
Member

@life

we are all pretty aware how people think of minorities what i was trying to ascertain was how many of us agree/disagree with that behaviour/mind set

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:33 #
Not Possible
Blocked

Yes LifeH2O all of it is pure and stale jahalt

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:33 #
shafiq12
member

gv....

It is very easy to write...

muslim Pakistanis are and we should all strive as a society/community to achieve equality for all?

Do you have any clues of such a society... i mean, in past, present or future.... Have/had you seen such a society?

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:35 #
shafiq12
member

NP

a true Islamic society based on Ahkams of Allah would provide justice, to all, rights for all. protection against persecution and from oppresion for all

Can you give me hint of a true islamic society.... You said the subject society is based on Ahkams of Allah..... What are Ahkams of Allah...... That is his Book... Now the extremits member also working for the same society... So where is difference?

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:39 #
gv
Member

@oblivion

i asked a simple question

i am well aware that there is no such thing as a perfect society (note the emphasis is on the word 'strive')

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:40 #
Not Possible
Blocked

Yes such a society existed at the time of Rasool Allah (SAW)

maybe we cant aquire a perfect society today, but our society is at the lowest ebb of discord, persecution, strife,

we need to get back to normalancy, atleast have a more balanced Muslim state like Malaysia or Turkey

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:40 #
Not Possible
Blocked

Oblivion I agree

that exacly what I have been saying munafiqs amongst us do not even follow the Quran and Alalhs Ahkams

all they use religion for as means to an end to their heinous desires

second part of your question I have answered in my last post.

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:42 #
shafiq12
member

gv

i am well aware that there is no such thing as a perfect society (note the emphasis is on the word 'strive')

Comrade.... Are you starting a war for myth....... hypocrisy is very common today............... See you just started a topic but don't know how you should apply it in practical world...Because such society never existed on earth according to your consience... So why you believe your strive will establish a peaceful society....... See, the dead man Osama bin Ladin is 'striving'for the same society..... So where is difference between your society and his society.... according to his consience.... his society is just and peaceful place to live...Striving isn't a kid play... Striving demands blood... Do you have courage to waste your blood in the name of justice.. or do you have courage to kill any hypocrite who resists your way....

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:51 #
shafiq12
member

Gv
Do you agree with NP's statement

Yes such a society existed at the time of Rasool Allah (SAW)

Please anwer...

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:53 #
alirazaster
Disabled upon Request

no muslim is more pakistanier than a terrorist now!

oblivion, please dont be such a pessimist! and hardliner!
change individually

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 17:55 #
gv
Member

@oblivion

as usual you answer a question with a question.. Common etiquette would dictate that you answer my question first after which i am happy to answer yours

you dont even believe in the validity of pakistan so why bother particpating in this thread

Posted 1 year ago on 23 May 2011 18:02 #
shafiq12
member

Gv buddy!!!

See... Your Question has no answer.... So when a question has no answer..... It is better to answer that question with a better question..... You yourself admitted that Such successful society doesn't/didn't exist on any part of world.... See your own brain has no answer for that.... So why you are hopeful..... Someone else will provide you the answer..... Now answer my Questions....

you dont even believe in the validity of pakistan so why bother particpating in this thread

If you were to believe in validity of Pakistan.... Than you would have answers my question... What an irony...

Posted 1 year ago on 24 May 2011 6:30 #
gv
Member

@oblivion

i dont think you understand the meaning of the word irony...

here is someone forever bemoaning the west and modern society and predicting the nearing apocalypse and uses Warner Bros' Road Runner as his avatar.. Now that's irony.

Posted 1 year ago on 24 May 2011 9:34 #
shafiq12
member

Gv....Dude!!!!
Is explanation of irony the answer to my irony..... What an irony;)

Still waiting for never ending questions...... So lets say i give you a hand in your strive.... Would kindly brief the thing for which we are "striving".... Is that thing existed or not....If you aren't able to brief it..... Than i must say.....

here is someone forever bemoaning the west and modern society

You believe modern and western society to be ideals.... But they aren't because ignorance isn't bliss... All glitters aren't gold.... Wake up from the dream gv

Posted 1 year ago on 24 May 2011 9:53 #
gv
Member

@oblivion/SS/psycho

First of all at least i know who i am and dont need multiple id's to reinvent myself every six months.

Second of all please don't misattribute statements to me which I never made.

I am not saying modern and western society is my ideal.

I have stated the ideal that we should work towards which is a society where rule of law is supreme and no one person/group should be discriminated against.

I also realise that there is no such thing as a perfect society however the closest thing to perfection is that the majority of society benefits from the system.

Any society which achieves that is worthy of respect

Posted 1 year ago on 24 May 2011 10:00 #
shafiq12
member

gv....

First of all at least i know who i am and dont need multiple id's to reinvent myself every six months.

See, you are taking help of conjecture to make your point safe.... I have only one ID on this foram.... I don't habit of making double ids.... If you think, i have two IDs than you can specify Semirza.... He can block or ban me.... But Semirza is more Smart than you are..... So please don't take help of conjecture if you don't know all the fact.... Don't make conclusion on the base of incomplete facts as you have habit of making ..... it is good advice to ponder....... See you have exposed yourself in order to make you smart......

Second of all please don't misattribute statements to me which I never made.

I didn't mis attribute things... Clearly, you allow me to mis attribute things for not answering the question.... Right buddy ;)

I have stated the ideal that we should work towards which is a society where rule of law is supreme and no one person/group should be discriminated against.

Now who will define those laws.... Are you taking human laws as supreme........... As per your thinking the subject society doesn't exist....... Isn't it mean to waste your life for something which doesn't exist ;)

See this is just a theory

we should work towards which is a society where rule of law is supreme and no one person/group should be discriminated against.

.....
Very easy to write... very hard to imagine....

Posted 1 year ago on 24 May 2011 10:32 #
gv
Member

@oblivion

once again you miss the point i did not say you are currently using multiple id's to post. I am saying you feel some inherent need to reinvent yourself with a new ID every six months. (shows a slightly deranged identiy crisis if you ask me)

but pray do tell what are you writing that is not theoretical?

Posted 1 year ago on 24 May 2011 11:17 #
shafiq12
member

I am saying you feel some inherent need to reinvent yourself with a new ID every six months

I have changed the name of ID because of Sufi Soul.... People make no difference between me & him..... See the reason here..... I hope it will cover all of your conjecture which you are putting upon me....
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/no-political-social-relgeous-isms-just-islam#post-210429

Right Dude!!!! See the difference, you aren't replying subject of my posts rather picking worms and attacking on me....

Isn't it the irony!!!!!! Why you don't admit... You don't have any definition of "Strive"

Posted 1 year ago on 24 May 2011 12:01 #
gv
Member

@oblivion

"you aren't replying subject of my posts rather picking worms and attacking on me...."

you're being a bit one-sided here no ?

As to your question was there ever a perfect society like this before ? the answer is no because rasool allah's city state in Madina (or even the Hijaz) was fairly homogenous and not diverse enough linguistically or ethnically to compare to Pakistan.

However did Rasool Allah give us guidelines to achieve a fair and just society - the answer is YES!

Islam teaches:

1) Honesty
2) Fairness
3) Equality
5) Justice
6) Tolerance
7) Protection of the weak

Are these all factors necessary to achieve a fair and just society - yes

you ask the wrong questions ... mr. confused id..

Posted 1 year ago on 24 May 2011 15:33 #
shafiq12
member

However did Rasool Allah give us guidelines to achieve a fair and just society - the answer is YES!

What makes you to think, muslim, in the past 1400 years, were unable to follow these teaching of Rasool Allah in order to create such a society....... and they will follow in next 1400 years as per your thinking..... it means, indirectly you are saying it is impossible to create such a society..... ....

you ask the wrong questions ... mr. confused id.

I ask the rights question but you don't have any answer..
Let me sum it for you.... See first you said

The point I'm trying to make is that in a succesful society - EVERY individual should have the same rights and legal status

In this post it seems here, you know what is successful society and how it looks like.... Perhaps you are hiding it from me.......
You have never been able to define successful society in real world in this whole thread....... You just put theory..... Like such a society will be based on teaching of Rasool of Allah........... it is just a theory.......

Are these all factors necessary to achieve a fair and just society - yes

Now again.... You put another theory... everybody know it but problem is.... Is/was there such society in the history of world....... according to your thoughts.... The perfect man.... The prophet of God was unable to create such a society than what would you expect from other.....

Right!!!! Good Grief!!!

Posted 1 year ago on 25 May 2011 5:15 #
gv
Member

@oblivion

For once can you stop being elliptical and obtuse and in simple english get to the point you are trying to make

Posted 1 year ago on 25 May 2011 9:44 #
shafiq12
member

gv....

Why you are ignoring the point..... Your "strive" is just a theory which never exist/existed on earth....... you dont have clues for the thing which you are ''striving''..... the thing which you had written, never existed on earth as per you thinking.......

Right!!!! It seem you are quite puzzled..... don't know what to do!!!!

Posted 1 year ago on 25 May 2011 10:13 #
alirazaster
Disabled upon Request

@oblivion
to sum it up, Quraan is the book of divine guidance, and if we really understand it.... we can bring a change for the better.... and hopelessness is a sin!!!
but it seems to me that you are hopeless and you refuse to accept the possibility that in anyway, human beings can come out of this social bankruptcy, and thats how you indirectly make your point that the book of divine guidance is naozobillah useless....

all of us should try to change individually.... and give something beneficial or productive in the society...
criticism for the sake of criticism is not helpful at all.... so if thats all what you can do, you should stay quiet

Posted 1 year ago on 25 May 2011 11:18 #
shafiq12
member

SAR...

Do you have any clues about successful society in the world..... Is/was that society existed on earth.... Please answer.... and who the hell said i am hopeless.....I ain't criticizing anyone...

Posted 1 year ago on 25 May 2011 11:27 #
gv
Member

@oblivion

i am saying that you are

a) hopeless

b) confused

3) irrationally critical

Posted 1 year ago on 25 May 2011 11:30 #
shafiq12
member

Look, who is saying ;)

i am saying that you are

Gv, a confused person thinks other people as confused...
you are confused because you hadn't been able to define ''strive'' for last 11.6 billion in the history on planet earth.... and you don't have any clues for it....

Posted 1 year ago on 25 May 2011 11:46 #
alirazaster
Disabled upon Request

whats the matter with you?
do u think you are very smart or what?

Posted 1 year ago on 25 May 2011 20:04 #
shafiq12
member

sar

Is your gesture answer to my question?

Posted 1 year ago on 26 May 2011 5:53 #
alirazaster
Disabled upon Request

whats ur question dumdum?

Posted 1 year ago on 26 May 2011 6:36 #
shafiq12
member

SAR Dude!!!!

Here are clues...

Do you have any clues about successful society in the world..... Is/was that society existed on earth.... Please answer.... and who the hell said i am hopeless.....I ain't criticizing anyone...

http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/is-a-member-of-a-minority-faith-as-pakistani-as-a-muslim-pakistani#post-241698

Posted 1 year ago on 26 May 2011 6:48 #
alirazaster
Disabled upon Request

no society is perfect.... we can only try making them perfect by changing our selves in a better way! so just do that.... simple! whats your point?

Posted 1 year ago on 26 May 2011 9:04 #
shafiq12
member

Sar

isn't it contradiction with NP's statement... or you believe that society as moral....

Yes such a society existed at the time of Rasool Allah (SAW)

I ain't saying 100 % perfect society.... I am saying a moral society..... which provided peace to majority of its member.... Is that society existed in the history of world....

no society is perfect.... we can only try making them perfect by changing our selves in a better way! so just do that.... simple! whats your point?

There is no difference between you statement and Gv's statement..... SAR my point is simple..... How can you change yourself when you don't the thing for which you are working...

Posted 1 year ago on 26 May 2011 9:17 #
alirazaster
Disabled upon Request

i know very well what change i need to bring in myself as an individual.... i am not here to change the world, or some part of it... no one can impose something on others unless it is directly in relation to the freedom or liberty of others...

the society during the time of Rasool Allah was no doubt much better.... but even then, there were some munafiqs and mischief mongers... evil is always going to be there until the end of this world!
after that, we are going to be responsible and accountable for what we did and what we dint do....
islam is based on humanity.... and first we need to be good human beings to become good muslims..... so the simple things that we need to adopt are tolerance, co existence, respect, honesty....

Posted 1 year ago on 26 May 2011 9:49 #
shafiq12
member

Sar...

See, If you live in society like Pakistan... which is pure corrupt society..... Your changing won't make politician/cleric/judges/officer a pious person....... If whole state of society doesn't change then your changing isn't of worth... Don't be selfish in changing yourself......i am talking about the changing of society as whole....... and that society according to gv's thought doesn't exist..... Then why he is crying now

The point I'm trying to make is that in a succesful society - EVERY individual should have the same rights and legal status - black/white/yellow, rich/poor, christian/hindu/muslim. Even those awful HT activists would have to be treated fairly.

He also changed topic to personal changing as you are changing ;).... but it seems you both are puzzled...

You said

the society during the time of Rasool Allah was no doubt much better....

Do you have courage to cut hand of your own brother, if he is stealing something.... I am talking about laws and orders in the society....

Posted 1 year ago on 26 May 2011 10:25 #
alirazaster
Disabled upon Request

society is made up of individuals.... and if individuals change societies change
personally, gv might not be discriminating on the basis of colour/cast/creed/sect etc... and he was just sharing his opinion that why shouldnt everybody do the same...

I will be answerable to God about my own actions and efforts that i'll make to bring a change either good or bad... regardless of whether i achieve them or not..... we can only try and strive...

and you should listen to the lecture i posted in faith and religion section 21st CENTURY AND ROOHANIYAT...
dont argue for the sake of arguement!

Posted 1 year ago on 26 May 2011 12:45 #
shafiq12
member

society is made up of individuals.... and if individuals change societies change

What makes people to change themselves.... That is system.... if a system is corrupt, then people can't change themselves........ See, that system as per your and gv's thinking doesn't exist....... The person's changing in a corrupt system can't change the corruption in the system.... It seems you both guys are very confused!!!!!!!..... You are justing putting theories and are not try to answer subject of my post....

Posted 12 months ago on 27 May 2011 7:39 #
gv
Member

@oblivious

1) As mentioned a successful society for me is one where the majority of its inhabitants have access to legal justice and social and economic well being.

2) Such societies have existed in the past and continue to exist in the present.

3) While an ideal state is perhaps impossible. It is by setting a framework of social ideals that you establish the best possible society given your circumstances.

4) One of those social ideals is respecting individual rights regardless of race, creed, colour etc.

Its as simple as that.

My original point was that this is not the case in Pakistani society.

Poor people and minorities (and sometimes there is no distinguishing between the two) - who are the weakest and most vulnerable in our society are discrimated against by nearly everyone.

Is that the fault of our system ? Yes it is .It is also the fault of a mind set that is prevalent and being promoted by many which is Pakistan is really just for sunni muslims and everybody else who lives here is incidental. This to me is detrimental to society as a whole.

In terms of your so called point re; 'the system': First of all define a socio-political 'system' to yourself?

a socio-political system is a framework of laws and practices to manage/govern the daily lives of a grouping of individuals typically based on a set of norms/practices prevalent at any given time.

If invidividual mindsets change for the better and convince the majority to change than the system changes.

Now if you have something positive to add or a point to debate please do so otherwise i have no patience arguing with someone who is so obtuse and vague and refuses to put his point across clearly.

Posted 12 months ago on 27 May 2011 10:09 #
shafiq12
member

gv dude!!!

See the contradiction in your posts... Aren't you trying to become smart!!!!

1) As mentioned a successful society for me is one where the majority of its inhabitants have access to legal justice and social and economic well being.

2) Such societies have existed in the past and continue to exist in the present.

Now see here what you said.... when i asked

Do you have any clues of such a society

You said,

i am well aware that there is no such thing as a perfect society (note the emphasis is on the word 'strive')

Puzzled Dude!!! i am talking about successful society... which you pointed earlier...
Now see how you have changed your statement.... Here.... open your eyes dude!!!!

2) Such societies!!!!!!! have existed in the past and continue to exist in the present.

.............................................

3) While an ideal state is perhaps impossible. It is by setting a framework of social ideals that you establish the best possible society given your circumstances.

i never talked about ideal state.... I know, no state can be 100%perfect!!!!

If invidividual mindsets change for the better and convince the majority to change than the system changes.

You are wrong here..... It is system which changes the invidividual mindsets..... If system doesn't change,then invidividual mindsets don't change.... See the irony!!!!... Ufff my brain!!!!! A Greater hallucination in my mind!!!!

Now if you have something positive to add or a point to debate please do so otherwise i have no patience arguing with someone who is so obtuse and vague and refuses to put his point across clearly.

When people run off.... or they become puzzle!!!!.... they often pass such statement..... I am aware of it.... Good grief..

Posted 12 months ago on 27 May 2011 12:45 #