I was standing opposite my school in 1977 election! The school was serving as a polling station. The time was around 16:00. There were few people on that polling station at that time. All of sudden five or six cars came there and stopped with screeching brakes. From the first car a man got out (which I recognized as a vocal/belligerent PPP activist). He fired two shots in the air from a revolver. Afraid I started running away from the school as did many others (most of the people in that surrounding). While running I saw men getting out of the other cars and they had ballot boxes in their hands. At night I came to know that PPP won from this polling station. This was first imprint on a child’s mind which got firmed up when he grew up.
That day I learned a bad thing. It was that people in our assemblies get elected by “DHANDLI” and we don’t have any say in this. Why I am saying “bad thing” because I lost trust in election process in my country. But I want to unlearn this thing! I am not at all interested in voting. Although I know that I should be! I want to select the person of my choice, whom I know would respect law, and do something good for me and my countrymen.
Just recently there are usual rigging allegations from the losing parties. But tell me what I learned that day in 1977 was wrong!
1 - People in this forum (and in national assembly) have pointed out on a few occasions that we have elected our president.
2 – It is told by one friend on this forum that ordinary Punjabis are to be blamed because they elect their representatives who then loot other provinces.
3 – Dr. Shahid Masood was telling Imran Khan in a recent “Mere Mutabiq” that people have again elected wrong people in recent elections.
So my friends is it really us who choose our looters?
If it’s really us who elect then it’s a matter of concern for me and my nation. Why we collectively don’t have the sense to choose wisely.
For a better future of Pakistan, we need to learn these important things:
1 – Judge the candidates
2 – Understand the political agenda of the parties
3 – Understand our rights and know who would take care of these rights
4 - Exercise the right of vote honestly and wisely.
PKPolitics Discuss » Future of Pakistan
Is it really awam who elect people?
(48 posts)-
shriq
MemberPosted 2 years ago on 24 Mar 2010 18:27 # -
naseemkhanan
MemberIn Pakistan? The answer is no if a counted vote is cast with one's own free will without any influence, temptation, persuation or enticement at work.
Posted 2 years ago on 24 Mar 2010 19:48 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Pakistani people have no 'community spirit' in them.
Pakistani people are in the millions. The thugs among us are a tiny minority.
The question I want to ask is, why haven't millions of Pakistani people taken over this tiny band of criminals to-date ?
It has been 60+ years since Pakistan was created. What have our people done in 60+ years to forcefully! take!! back! from these tiny groups of thugs, the FREEDOM that these thugs forcefully take away from our people ?
After-all these thugs are forcing them, aren't they ?
I hear a lot of hugh and cry about 'being forced' in Pakistan when we talk about Islam. What about being forcefully stripped of FREEDOM for choosing our leaders ?
Why don't Pakistani people do something about this forceful stripping away of their most basic of FREEDOMs i.e., choosing our leaders ?
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 9:15 # -
@Naseem
"In Pakistan? The answer is no if a counted vote is cast with one's own free will without any influence, temptation, persuation or enticement at work."I think elections in Pakistan are generally fair. By and large, nobody is forced to vote against his/her free will. Infractions are minor and local, not systematic. Propaganda is a legitimate tool in electioneering.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:15 # -
shriq
MemberHaris,
Pakistani people have no 'community spirit' in them.
It is difficult to inculcate the community spirit in an uneducated nation!
Pakistani people are in the millions. The thugs among us are a tiny minority.
Those thugs are clever; use all types of tactics to suppress people; most of them are educated from cambridge, Aitchison etc; are supported by outside powers; know the game very well!
The millions on the other hand are undeducated; simple people; trying to make both ends meet; dont know what their rights are....
The question I want to ask is, why haven't millions of Pakistani people taken over this tiny band of criminals to-date ?
How would they do it?
It has been 60+ years since Pakistan was created. What have our people done in 60+ years to forcefully! take!! back! from these tiny groups of thugs, the FREEDOM that these thugs forcefully take away from our people ?
Probably, some trigger is required; not yet pressed
I hear a lot of hugh and cry about 'being forced' in Pakistan when we talk about Islam. What about being forcefully stripped of FREEDOM for choosing our leaders ?
This is what I want to know from friends! Is it really us who who FREELY elect people
Why don't Pakistani people do something about this forceful stripping away of their most basic of FREEDOMs i.e., choosing our leaders ?
Trigger! But from Rawalpindi's experience it seems that the trigger is near
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:22 # -
shriq
MemberGujjar,
If elections are fair then how come we elect only those people who loot us and fill their swiss accounts?
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:25 # -
@Shriq
"If elections are fair then how come we elect only those people who loot us and fill their swiss accounts?"That is a different question and needs a lot of discussion but briefly:
--There are only a limited number of politicians that are in the field.
--Military adventures after every few years make some of them look like victims.
--Majority politicians are still reasonaly honest.
--Voters do reject a lot of bif name politicians.
--Our problems are mostly due to the fact that most people in authority do not know what is the right thing to do.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 16:39 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Gujjar Talwar: Dude, you seem to have missed the mountains of evidence for rigging, for manipulating elections available today, for corruption of politicians over the past decades, for injustice propagated by politicians, for the murders, for ALL the nonsense that has been going on since Pakistan was created ?
You seem to have missed watching Dunya Today – 15 February 2010
This is just one such proof of manipulated elections available on the web.
If you'r young, I'd consider you naive. But if you'r of mature age, then I'd question you.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:01 # -
Haris Khan,
Can you please be specific which elections were rigged? The most notorious example is that of 1977 elections. There was some evidence there but it did not happen the way it was reported or is believed (I witnessed it). Elections since 88 have mostly been fair.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:09 # -
shriq
MemberGujjar,
--Majority politicians are still reasonaly honest.
&
most people in authority do not know what is the right thing to do
Are not these opposing statements?
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:11 # -
achtung
Memberharis bhai. pakistani intikhabaat mei herr harney wala dhandli ka shor machata hy. yeh koi nai baat tou nahee ! magar aab awam ko bhi zimmewari sey achhay log muntakhib kerney hoo gey.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:12 # -
shriq
MemberGujjar,
If you want to say that elections are fair, but:
1 - We dont know whom to elect!
2 - The people who are contesting elections are naive, innocent people, dont know how to govern (rightly)
3 - There is no influence from outside powers!?????????????????
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:15 # -
No, they are not. Here is an example:
Politicians build roads in rural areas but do not allocate funds for maintenace or assign responsibilty to a department.Road gets washed next season and may even disappear when a next allocation of funds is made to redo it.
They think they are doing a good work but they are wasting money.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:17 # -
"1 - We dont know whom to elect!
2 - The people who are contesting elections are naive, innocent people, dont know how to govern (rightly)
3 - There is no influence from outside powers!?????????????????
"1. Voters make the best choice from amongst available candidates. We do have some biases and vested interests but I think collective decision is pretty correct.
2. Our politicians are generally quite shrewd but they are not good at governing. They try to please everybody and cannot make tough decisions.
3. Foreign influence is quite subtle. It mostly works through Media and bureaucracy. It does not significantly alter the results.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 17:30 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@achtung: Can you please stop whining ? I'm not whining. Why are you ?
I'm presenting hard facts.
(1) Why are you not ready to acknowledge reality when a mountain of evidence is available ?
(2) Why do you continue to throw baseless allegations at me ?
If I was lying then your words would make sense. Yet you already know I'm not. So why continuously whine in-front of me?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
@Gujjar Talwar: Why don't you watch that program, before we talk further ?
There's a history of politicians as well as Army or its sub-agencies rigging or manipulating elections to gain favourable results.
Voters ? Dude, haven't you seen the ailing amount of participation in general elections in Pakistan ? Does that indicate confidence in elections on part of the common man to you ?
Foreign influence ? Do you even know where foreign influence begins and where it ends ? Common! yaar.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 18:06 # -
achtung
Memberharis bhai, mei ney to hard facts biyan kiye hein. aap per koi ilzam nahee lagaya. mein ney to yehi kaha na keh
pakistani intikhabaat mei herr harney wala dhandli ka shor machata hy. yeh koi nai baat tou nahee ! magar aab awam ko bhi zimmewari sey achhay log muntakhib kerney hoo gey.
iss mei aap per konsa ilazam hy. albatta aap mujh per whinning ka ilzam lagaya hy. zara apni tehreer per to ghor kareen, haris bhai.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 18:56 # -
Haris Khan
"Why don't you watch that program, before we talk further ?"I did skim through that talk show with Asghar Khan. I am aware that ISI pumped money to get IJI in place. (BTW, I have had a chance to shake hand with Asghar Khan and talk a little bit of politics. I remember him calling for Army takeover in 1977 and I think he was wrong then and at many other occasions.) However, the elections in 1990 (and later) were themselves still fair.
Here is a book, I have recommended for every blogger to read. I would like you to read it too:
http://millat.com/pdf/?bn=jahaanSince you are in Lahore, you may want to buy a copy and keep it for reference.
This book has a good inside look at elections and many other events from 1968 to late 90's.
Trust me, foreign influence is not as great as you think, especially in elections.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 18:57 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Gujjar Talwar: There's more manipulation of elections, than you think.
Mr. Asghar Khan is correct in what he saying. You are being naive.
(1) Asghar Khan has had a petition in Supreme Court for 16! years. Why did no Supreme Court hear that petition to-date ?
(2) Why did Mr. Musharraf bring up his coup just 2-3 days before a judge of the Supreme Court had saved his sentence for delivery in Asghar Khan's petition back in 1998 ?
(3) In the entire history of Pakistan, why has Election Commission always! failed to filter out those;
(a) who didn't pay taxes ?
(b) who had criminal backgrounds ?
(c) who's political campaigns were financed by foreignersWhy did Election Commission always! conduct ZERO accountability of those who stood up to represent people of Pakistan ?
It was in these same by-polls for NA-123 that out of the 22 candidates who came forward to represent people of NA-123, only 4! of them paid taxes.
Who allowed the rest to take part in elections, to stand up to represent people of NA-123 ?
(4) Who has been financing political campaigns of opportunists, criminals, traitors in Pakistan ?
(5) Who has been awarding parliamentary seats to MQM for decades ?
(6) We have seen extensive amount of videos of poll-rigging for these recent by-polls. When you see those videos, do you find those people 'used to' rigging polls or being new at this crime ?
Poll rigging as well as manipulation of elections have been a norm for decades, ever since Mr. Z.A. Bhutto's era.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 19:05 # -
achtung
Memberyeh sahih hy keh election ko election larrney wali partian manipulate karti hein. aisi manipulation siyasi aur mazhabi, doono partion ki taraf sey hoti hei jisko mustarid karna chahiye, nakeh jamhuriat ko hee khatam kar dei jae.
haris bhai, fikar na karo. asghar khan ki bhi bari aa jaey gi. insaaf hona to abhi shroo hua hy.
yeh aap bata dein keh Who has been financing terror campaigns and actions of terrorists in Pakistan.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 19:23 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@achtung: There's no rigging of elections by DEENi parties, DEENi people. If DEEN-dar people would have rigged elections, they wouldn't be out of power 60+ years since Pakistan was created.
Your attempt at maligning DEENi people, groups, political parties is worthless!.
What's your point ? Come to the point.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 19:35 # -
achtung
Memberharis bhai, haqeeqat sey nazrein chura leiney sey haqeeqat badal nahee sakti. awam sabb kutch dekhtey aur suntey aur jantey hein. mein nei kissi khas ko malign nahee kia. mein sabb ki baat kar raha hoon. yahan jis ka haath parta hei wo moqa haath sey nahee janey deta. yahaan koi farishta nahee hy.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 19:43 # -
shriq
MemberGujjar,
I am surprised at your analysis. The people whom awam selects fail to deliver badly.
Do you find any competent person to run the state of affairs? Take example of Raja Riaz or Abid Sher Ali.
There are .... sent people like Rahman Malik? God knows from where "yeh tapka hai". Or take example of Shaukat Aziz. Moeenuddin Qureshi.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 19:50 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@achtung: Your words, not mine.
I maintain, there's NO! rigging of polls by DEENi people, groups, political parties, etc etc.
Farishte maujood na hote, to dunya maujood na hoti.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 19:57 # -
achtung
Memberbhai aap key maintain karney sey kia hota hy. awam sabb jantey hein. awam yeh bhi jantey hein keh jhoot kon boltey hein.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 20:42 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@achtung: I see no reason to continue with you anymore.
I'll retire for now.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 20:45 # -
jaypk
Member"shriq...jb UK jaisay mulk main wohee elect hota hay jo america chahta hay...to hum kis khayt ki mooli hain bhai..! awam ko to 50 rs ,biryani ka packet or jhootay waaday miltay hay....aik rally main naaray laganay k..!! awam payt bhar k 50 rs lay kar so jatay hain..humain or kia chahiye..!
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Mar 2010 21:00 # -
shriq
Memberjaypk,
"jb UK jaisay mulk main wohee elect hota hay jo america chahta hay"
There are so many differences between UK and Pakistan:
Quality of life - all amenities of a civil society available to all
Per Capita income - affluence
Their passport respected worlwide
No ques for "Sasta Atta, cheeni"
No Load shedding for 12, 16 hours.
No drone attacks or suicide bombing.
No scarciy of clean water.
Good welfare system
Good health care systemEven if people are people in power are elected with American asheerbad, but ordinary people there are not suffering as we are.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 3:11 # -
Haris Khan
"There's more manipulation of elections, than you think.
Mr. Asghar Khan is correct in what he saying. You are being naive.-----"--Asghar khan's petition does not have much in it. Sitting Govt. of the time used secret fund. It is legal.
--Musharraf had his own reasons for the coup. Asghar Khan is trying to take too much credit.--Election Commission accepts papers based on documents. It is the job of opposing candidates to challenge eligibility and prove it. Today's resignations by a couple of NA members shows that accountability does work.
--Recent elections in NA21, NA55, NA123 were reasonably fair. If there are videos, they should be taken to courts.
If Salman Butt and Sheikh Rashid cannot prove it, who will?
Candidates from NA21 have had a couple of hearings in EC. I don't think their claims of rigging hold much water.--MQM is a special case. I do believe they stuff ballot boxes but I will still give them half their seats. That makes 7-10 NA seats questionable. That is not enough to shift the overall balance of power.
Yes, the current lot of politicians may not be the best and there are better people out there but how do we get them elected? I don't have a ready answer. I would say, they should retool their skills and message to connect to the masses and keep trying.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 4:42 # -
No ...
hum tou sirf tamasha dekhtay hain ,aur taliyan bajatay hain.its USA who decides ,who is coming next to rule in Paksitan .
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 5:33 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Gujjar Talwar: I can't believe I'm reading this from you. Are you really this naive, this gullible ?
An opposing candidate has to challenge, has to prove eligibility of the other ?
This is blatant nonsense!. That would make it a partial investigation, rather than impartial one. No one would accept it.
We don't need Election Commission if it can't even conduct an impartial investigation into profiles of those who stand up to represent people of this nation.
The simple fact is, we do NOT! elect anyone. If people had confidence in choosing leaders for themselves through the election system, they would take part in it. Which is not the case.
When we look at the trend of general elections for the last 2-3 decades we note a dropping trend in number of voters. Which shows a general dissent, dissatisfaction in the election process.
A person in NA-123 got elected after securing less than 16% votes in that constituency. Do you really expect that guy to be representative of the people of that constituency ?
There are videos available of that which went on. Yet you are still not ready to acknowledge the problem. How! great!.
When the problem won't be identified, how would we, as a people, ever move to resolve it ? As a result, the future you are proposing for people of Pakistan looks bleak to me.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 6:53 # -
unfortunately ,in Pakistan ,its never only awam ,who decides the fate of a political party by electing or rejecting it.
there are many players other than public ,who plays their role out here in Elections .
USA being a super power ,always wants some one who is ruling in Pakistan ,would get approval first from USA .no2 is our own army ,unfortunately GHQ plays a major role in deciding the fate of competitive parties .
no3..engineering of Elections ,takes place in order to change the results according to the wishes of USA and army .
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 7:10 # -
These are the unforeseen result of man made system
man cann't establish peace in this world untill he do not struggle for the system of Lord (Allah)
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 7:14 # -
Haris Khan
"This is blatant nonsense!......."I suppose you don't have an argument. I rest my case!
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 15:14 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
(sarcasm) huh ? yea.. right! (/sarcasm)
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 15:44 # -
shriq
MemberSo the will of USA, army and awam is what decides the fate of a party. But this strange amalgamation results in a government that does not protect the rights of awam. Awam in this trio seems to be the loser. And this is what is the matter of concern here.
How we can ensure that it is only the awam that decides?
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 15:50 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Good! question.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 17:40 # -
Shriq
"So the will of USA, army and awam is what decides the fate of a party."This myth of USA making and breaking our Governments is oveblown. America guards its interests around the globe. In Pakistan their tool is the AID they provide. Nobody can give you money for free. If we manage our economy right, we can be self sufficient and don't have to take their dictates. So long as we are asking them for help, they will get something in return.
Army is a wild card, not only in Pakistan but a lot of third world countries. How do civilians control it, is an open question. Many politicians operate in their shadows, especially the ones who cannot make it at the polls. The least that can be done is that the average citizens should stop doing bhangra and distributing mithai as soon as the next adeveturer steps in. But I am sure if Army rule comes tomorrow, many of us will jump on our feet for a few days and start whining again in a few months.
Average voters, the awam, are doing their job. Our educated elite is confused, trashes everything, wants all the goodies, don't know how to get there, and worst of all, don't even try.
I think we have to own our plight. It is we who are responsible for this mess, not the foreign powers.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 19:40 # -
LiberalKarachi
Member1) There is small amount of dhandli, certainly.
2) Majority of the votes are GENUINE, whether you like it or not. Go to Interior Sindh if u dont think people want PPP, go to central punjab if u think people don't want PML-N.
3) Most of Pakistan has feudalism and elitism mentality still, which decides who gets the votes, big parties 'buy' these people and are therefore voted 'in'.Posted 2 years ago on 26 Mar 2010 22:02 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Gujjar Talwar: O bhaee, sar na khao. Ja ke reality check kar ke phir wapas A ke baat karo about USA giving aid.
They bribe anyone and everyone, be it through peaceful or forceful means.
These days, they call bribe = aid.
@LiberalKarachi: Small 'dhandhli' you say ? For 60+ years ? How can a small 'dhandhli' go on for 60+ years ? Does that make sense ?
Is there any reason to believe this 'dhandhli' has been or is 'small' ?
Majority of voters don't take part in election. Most of the votes are manufactured.
Didn't you hear about these recent by-polls ? For each person that would come in to vote, 4 new votes would be caste by the one who was holding the election office.
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 3:27 # -
shriq
MemberGujjar Talwar and Liberal Karachi,
I have wrote my first election experience above. Let me share with you the secong experience! When I went to vote for the first time, my ID card and my vote number in hand, entered the polling station, showed it to the gentleman there to get the ballot paper. He saw my name in the list and then he turned to police wala there. "Yeh banda naqli vote dalnai aya hai." "KIA??????" was my response. "NO! This is my name. Here is my ID card! Here is my UET card. So someone has already used my vote." When they saw UET card, they cooled down. Gave me another vote. I forgot that had a name. Then I used my right to vote for the first time.
So even my second experience with electoral process was not good. So I started believing that it is not my vote that decides about who would rule me. But some other power.
So again the question is same:
How we can ensure that it is only the awam that decides?Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 4:45 # -
shriq
MemberGujjar, You say:
"Our educated elite is confused, trashes everything, wants all the goodies, don't know how to get there, and worst of all, don't even try."I am not highly educated. But literae at least. But I have lost confidence in our electoral process. How many others would be there.
In uneducated (and poor) class, I have seen people go for vote for many reasons.
1) Some influential person asked for it
2) Nothing else to do
3) Chalo maila daikh kar ayain
5) Gaari ki muft sair aur biryani ki plate
6) bradari walon ne is ko vote dalnai ka kaha hai.
etc. etc.They are not thinking on the overall situation. Vision is limited. Cant see beyond their small world. So result is such an useless parliament (but that is if awam is really the power that elects....)
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 4:51 # -
"In uneducated (and poor) class, I have seen people go for vote for many reasons."
Whatever their reasons, they go and vote. If you think democracy is not good, we do get Army rule every few years. That might work for you. I am for democracy, however imperfect it may be.Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 14:27 # -
theimrannasir
MemberMany hands make light work.
I have quoted a famous saying which explicitly let us knows that if we have to achieve any goal we need to get united, we need determination, persistence and firm resolve. Unfortunately, myriad of Pakistanis are gasping for a few morsels to quench the fire of their stomach, for shelter to cover their selves, for help to protect themselves from the atrocities of feudal, wicked goons etc. Myriad are tantalizing for education so that they can keep up with others, whereas on the other side, people in corridors of power hail from the class which doesn’t match with its majority. In such circumstances Pakistan, which is badly lacking in unity, indicates that it’s not being ruled by its people.Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 14:51 # -
"In such circumstances Pakistan, which is badly lacking in unity, indicates that it’s not being ruled by its people."
Looks like another vote in favor of Army rule!
Posted 2 years ago on 27 Mar 2010 15:08 # -
theimrannasir
Member@gujjar Talwar, What have been said by me in above passage doesn't necessarily follow that i'm advocating or suggesting army rule.In my humble opinion army should keep itself away from this area of ruling over Pakistani people because it should do whatever has been assigned to it. We have been unable to settle overselves because of this fequent army interruption but having said this I'll emphasize again that Pakistan should be ruled by right representative of nation not by down right, unmitigated thieves or looters. Imran Nasir Lahore
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 18:03 # -
shriq
MemberImrannasir,
No army, No foreign influence, so what to do to have a grip on power (by us the awam)?
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 18:14 # -
"....Pakistan should be ruled by right representative of nation not by down right, unmitigated thieves or looters. Imran Nasir Lahore"
"No army, No foreign influence, so what to do to have a grip on power (by us the awam)?"
I agree with the stated objectives. I don't know of a silver bullet to achieve them. However, I believe the solution lies in democracy. We should participate and do our part to make it work better. It will need a lot of participation and perseverance to turn the tide.
As they say, things have to get worse before they can get better. Things do look at their worst. We may be at the tipping point to turn the tide.
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 19:30 # -
junaid
Memberi think its just fauji/establishment/ and their foreign masters who selects puppets( dako, wadairas, jageerdar) for their own beneficiary...
Posted 2 years ago on 28 Mar 2010 23:36 #
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