Is it time to send all Afghan mohajreen back ?

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Is it time to send all Afghan mohajreen back ?

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expakistani
Member

Lately Afghanistan government is doing their best to please American and Indian government

Should we cut down Afghan trade rout
send all Afghans back to Kabul

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 5:11 #
msyedh
Member

Well, to cut trade rout is too extreme.
But I am 100% agree, that, it is time, to start sending back Afghan mohajreen to Afghanistan.

If These mohajreen are not able to settle back in Afghanistan during American presence, then they will never be able to settle back in Afghanistan.
Pakistan has lot of unemployment and financial problems now. War on terror is hurting so bad Pakistan economy.

Afghanistan government must take back these mohajreens and settle them in Afghanistan with American help and dollars.
Pakistan already scarify too much in last 40 years.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 12:06 #
aftab arif
Member

Absolutely not, why we have to make more enemies, as long as people live by the law of the land, then i see no problem for them to remain here.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 12:17 #
quaidkamazaar
Member

its a very tricky question.
if these afghans do not encroach land, and behave like law abiding citizens who are loyal to the land, maybe they do not need to be kicked out. but problem is they consider themselves "Afghan" if you talk to them, before being Pakistani. in that case they must be kicked out. if they plot against Pakistan especially.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 12:25 #
sultanalikhan
Member

Why then we cry foul when similar treatment meted out to illegal Pakistanis abroad?

No concern for human miseries, but want Afghans must return because we have problems, is that it?? First we shoot ourselve in the foot and then we look for someone to blame for our self inflicted injuries...

Perhaps that is why we have been deprived of power because we are too trigger happy to handle it. At first sign of a teeny-weeny discomfort (even out of our own creation), we jump guns.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 13:03 #
scandinavian
Member

To use these poor refugees as a political tool would be very unjust. I think we need to find another solution.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 13:07 #
siddiqi73
Member

Call me a racist but these Afghan ****es need to be kicked out of Pakistan, the sooner the better. We cannot and should not facilitate people from a country which is openly hostile to Pakistan. These folks have been on the gravy train for a long time and now they ought to be packed in trucks and dumped across the border.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 13:09 #
sultanalikhan
Member

@Okay Siddiqi73...as you allowed, I will call you a racist...lollz...nah, sowiee...

Come to think of it, seriously, have Afghans been on "a gravy train" or we have sold them cheap in lieu of dollars?

How else have the generals and those in power transformed from ordinary mortals in to filthy rich tycoons, any idea??

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 13:39 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

Hey Siddiqui,

No one is going n where. All land belongs to Muslims. Was it your forefathers that demarcated the boundaries between Pakistan and Afghanistan. It was British colonialists that made those boundaries and you are proud of that?

Anyone who talks about Afghan brothers should leave must first ask American Brothers to leave the land of our forefathers. That is the biggest fitna. Remember Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh was one country for 500 years under Mughals until British came and divided us for this day. OK. Why does Pakistani poilticians go and embrace that poodle puppet Karzai? He speaks for the occupiers and they are the ones who are trying to malign Pakistan.

BTW, Please try to change yor name. The name is from the first Khalifa and he did not believe in any geopgraphical boundaries between Ummah. It was the daysof Muhajireen and Ansar and atleast try to be ansaar even if Muhajereeen does not behave as Muhajereen.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 13:55 #
Rizwan Qaimkhani
Member

first of all Afghanistan was never friendly to Pakistan' existence. They tried to break NWFP away from Pakistan, Bacha Khan died in that desperation is a proof enough. Second these people are more India friendly, there was a news posted in past on PKP them celebrating Indian Independence Day. They are also synonomous with drug culture, illegal weapon proliferation and land grabbing practices since their time of arrival. What is their contribution to a common Pakistani's life, mostly negative. Besides, they acquire Pakistani nationality by fraud and carry on their illegal activities elsewhere in the world and we get the burnt. No good for anything.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 16:21 #
stingingnettle
Member

There is a huge assumption here; The policies of Hamid Karzai are representative of the desires of the people of Afghanistan. We cannot punish the people of Afghanistan for the sins of the corrupt and undemocratic puppet leaders of Afghanistan (remember the election of Mr Karzai, what a fair and lovely election eh!). Let the axe fall where the guilt lies, no collective punishment and hysteria please.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 16:27 #
siddiqi73
Member

@Sultan,

Bro, I owe your my sincere gratitude for not considering me a racist!

We are absolutely in agreement that the lack of strategic foresight of our ghaleez and napak generals is solely responsible for the quagmire we have got ourselves in today. These generals for all their vices and corruption ought to be court martialed for selling us so dirt cheap to Uncle Sam for a few $'s and introducing the Afghan menace along with AK-47 and heroine to our society.

@abdulrehman,

My brother, we are not even good enough human beings nor Pakistanis and you are talking about Muslims and Ummah!? We are not even at peace with ourselves; the Punjabi is killing Balouch, Mohajir is kiling Pakhtoon and Sindhi is killing Mohajir. We ought to first eradicate all the ills from our society before going about think about the Ummah, the Yankees and these Afghans who are burden on our over burdened society.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 16:27 #
Rizwan Qaimkhani
Member

@Sting
It is not only Karzai, it is whoever the ruler was there treating the Pakistan in similar manner. You need to look far in the history.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 16:31 #
stingingnettle
Member

Abdul Rehman

So who was living in the region before the 500 years of Mughal rule, by your logic lets not stop there...

You obviously have some romantic view of the Mughals, perhaps you need to read some history to learn more about their 'excellent' private and public conduct.

No, none of this land belongs to our muslim forefathers, don't forget there were people living here before the muslims arrived. You logic is akin to the logic of the Jews for occupying and annexing Palestine. It doesn't work.

One last note; Muslims have been divided since the death of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), not since the arrival of the Brits. Have a read of the blood-soaked chapters of Islamic History.

Now, please get off your high horse and walk the earth like everyone else. Before you take offence read my earlier comment on this thread. Thanks. I do not mean any offence to you.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 16:56 #
spruce
Member

It is conspiracy by Indian and USA, israil to break Pakistan relationship with Afghanistan to stop Pakistan to be supper power in the Muslim world.

If Afghanis, pak together on the same plate form no one can defeat Muslims in that region. All Afghanis are not anti Pakistan and some them are loyal with religion, Muslims.

The problem is that anti Muslim forces are trying their best to entail bad image of Muslims of Afghanistan and using some of them as terror due to poverty and some of them are being used against Pakistan.

they are using fake Taliban made by USA,india,israil to hunt Pakistan and in the return Pakistani nation will be feared to accept Afghanis and this is what if worked will be win for USA,INDIA,ISRAIL.

We need to judge Afghanis with logical way to scrutinize who are being used against Pakistan estate.

Meanwhile we have not only Afghanis as a threat but also we have balouch and same the case of Karachi politics, if Pakistan take a action in the favor of Kashmir the reaction starting from Karachi and which party supporting India to return the pressure from Kashmir to Karachi which need to be eliminated.

We have to be neutral and think positively because if Afghanis are problem then we have a lot anti Pakistan forces should be return back to their master who are dancing at their tunes.

Posted 7 months ago on 02 Oct 2011 17:00 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

stingingnettle,

Muslims have been divided since the death of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), not since the arrival of the Brits. Have a read of the blood-soaked chapters of Islamic History.

That division pales into insignificance compared to the present day banana republics that were created by colonialists. Let us read this link. I don't think this was blood soaked history but the superiority of Islamic civilization is even acknowledged by Kuffar but unfortunately so called Muslims seem to be blinded by history. Kuffar want to emulate that civilization due to their hollow materialistic outlook and so called Muslims have problem with that.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/hewlettpackard.htm

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 1:30 #
saladin89
Member

How would u feel if europe sent all pakistanis back?

The problem are not the afghan's but our corrupt hukumran N$, Mr 10% and Mr Don, if we had good muslims leading us then, not only could we help our people but afghan's as well.

Pakistan needs to set an example to the ummat.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 2:37 #
Rizwan Qaimkhani
Member

Have Pakistani moved due to some war? There is nothing parallel in your analogy. Get some senses. And yes, people get sent back from if they commit crimes unless they adopt the citizenship. In the case of Afghans, whenever they commit crimes, some pseudo-islamist comes forward tries to shield them and call everyone else conspirator and zionist lobby. There is definitely something wrong with the folks defending them or have some share coming from their illegal activities.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 2:43 #
saladin89
Member

The so called war on terror brother, and the US is speaking of Pakistan as a terrorist country. Now the implications of this could be dire, if the country carries on the way it is going. So therfore there does seem a parallel in my anology.

Now concerning kicking them back, Pakistan army does not have the ability to do that even if they wished, they are scattered everywhere.

"irst of all Afghanistan was never friendly to Pakistan' existence"

There are many that say the same concerning Altaf Hussain, in fact there would be more evidence that could be brought forward for this.

How would u feel if someone made a statement send all the mohajirs back?

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 2:55 #
saladin89
Member

Sending the afghan's back will not solve our problems. The main problem firstlyy is getting rid of our corrupt hukumran such as N$ and Mr 10%. Then get out of this war, that is sucking our country dry.

Afghanistan has helped us in the past when we needed them. They are our brothers, and we need to have peace with our fellow brothers and stop this nonsense for blaming them for all the ills of our society.

There are blacksheeps in every society brother, whether u come to Punjab, Karachi, Sindh or wherever.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 2:59 #
spruce
Member

There was no any part of Karachi where you will not find pashtun as peon, patrolling men, security guard in any street, home, villas, flats, offices, banks, industries,
Schools, colleges, universities because they are known faithful people, since 1980's to onward why they all were targeted and we all broken their heart and they went on aggression. They left their honesty and they started asking their rights and respect, dignity.

We have mingled our pashtun brothers with the identity of Afghanis which is totally injustice.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 2:59 #
saladin89
Member

^^

u have a point irshad, we broke there hearts, as a result of GM and boot polishers hukumran.

Let us reconcile with everyone and get the good people together and overthrow these zaalim hukumran, who are the true racists of our society.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 3:03 #
Rizwan Qaimkhani
Member

Mr. Salaudin,
Altaf Hussain is not a country. The other point, he is a citizen of Pakistan hence cannot be compared with Afghan refugees who have no rights and have no bearing on Pakistan. Whoever brought them here is responsible whether it is JI or some Generals. Send these criminals to the kothees of Generals or Mansoora I don't give a flying zit. Your talk is a senseless and baseless at best.

There is a difference between Afghans and us and only people with insight can understand, with that statement of yours, you are not so bright or insightful. We made the country hence we have full citizenship. These crooks and opportunist took shelter after they made their masters in moscow mad. Whether it is Zahir Shah or Karzai are backed by these folks who always try to break Pakistan. But I believe you may have some lineage making you take their side. It is you and people like you responsible for every crimes they have committed on Pakistani soil. That makes you…

Your ignorant comments of sending muhajirs is nothing but your blood induced prejudice.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 3:14 #
saladin89
Member

@RQ

The point I made on Altaf Hussain and his supporters was that some people feel that He and mohajirs should be kicked out of Pakistan and sent to India. I am not saying that I agree with that, but some people. I do know that MQM are behind target killings in Karachi, u differ with that, that is your right. But not in any way do I have prejudice for people of Karachi, whether u want to be called Muhajir or not. However I would like AH to be trailed in court and MQM to be dismantled or a positive change.
Whether he has a passport or not, bangladeshis were apart of Pakistan, look what happened there, and they held Pakistan passport as well ( I think).

The reponsibility lies on poverty brother, that's what, not JI or army. POVERTY and WAR.

The reason they are here is because Russia invaded them. And yes brother we had to help them otherwise we would have a ruthless neighbour such as Russia, so it was too our own benefit that we helped our brothers also our right. If that happened to Pakistan, we would end up else where as well.
Afhans have supported us against wars that Pakistan has been involved in previously, they were our backbones.

So therefore like some people have prejudices against mohajir, why are we doing the same to afghan's. That lousy passport in a jungle country like ours has no value brother. If Pakistan army or hukumran decided to kick out mohajir's to India. What will u say then?, oh I made this country and I have a Pakistani passport, do u think that these corrupt hukumran would care if u have a passport or not.

Brother it is our hukumran that are breaking our nation through there looting and zulm on our people. Them cleaning the boots of US is one of the reasons why there is so much wrong happening here.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 3:56 #
siddiqi73
Member

@saladin89,

Please give us a hint for once, just once that you've got something in your upper deck even if its the size of a pea. The issue here is Afghans and not the Urdu speaking community nor MQM. There are numerous other threads opened right now where MQM, Altaf Hussain and the party's policies are dissected with aplomb.

You claim that Afghans have always been the friend of Pakistan, name me one instance when they have been except for the time when CIA through ISI was funding them and the likes of Ahmed Shah Masood, Gulbadin Hekmatyar etc. etc. use to wag their tails at the sight of Pakistanis who had bags full of goodies for them.

Finally your point is taken that the likes of NS and Zardari ought to be done away with and it should be our collective call to install the great Imran "Salahuddin Ayubi" Khan as the Prime Minister of Pakistan (even if he becomes one by winning just one seat). But at the end of the day, Afghans still need to be packed and transported across the border.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 5:15 #
expakistani
Member

i posted this thread about Afghan Mohajreen, those who are not legal citizen of Pakistan and obviously their puppet government have some few new friends so its time to send those guys back to their country??

again i am talking about Afghans not Pashtoons or legal citizen of Pakistan by any ethnic group

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 5:22 #
sultanalikhan
Member

Gentlemen....have we lost all the conscience about humanity, mercy and generosity that once used to be part of our defining character?

We are discussing Afghans here like a piece of furniture that has overserved its purpose and hence needs to be disposed of. This is very unfortunate indeed.

We are actually mixing Afghan ruling elite with the masses and attempting to punish that innocent lot for the crimes they have no hand in. Yes, Afghan elite is a bunch of crooks and opportunists, just like we have in Pakistan, and they deserve no support from us. But sweeping statements like "send all Afghan criminals back" are most unfortunate because the implication being employed here is "all Afghans are criminal".

We should never forget that they are here not by choice but as a result of the devastating war that has been raging for over 40 years with no end on the horizon. Yes those who found to be guilty of crime must be sent back packing or put behind bars, but we must refrain from punishing the whole lot because of few criminal elements.

Moreover, we should not draw parallels between Afghan situation and political unrest in our country. All I am saying is; forget about political dimensions, think about human sufferage.

Last but not the least, I only wish that those who are painting all Afghanis as criminal go and visit one of the refugee camps and see for themselves the living conditions of that poor lot being dubbed as criminals.

For those who always tend to see background of a person whose views are different then theirs, no I am not an Afghani but a Pakistani, who happened to be in Afghan refugee camps recently and saw the miseries by my own eyes. Needless to say I didn't like what I have witnessed. Despite all our problems we should be thankful to Allah that we have a country and we have shelters on our heads.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 6:05 #
Hussain Farooqui
Member

Afghan refugees have been paying guests to Mullah organisations like JI, JUI and the army generals of Zia's regime. They made billions from the situation. The burden of hospitality fell heavily on the general public of Pakistan. The Pakistani public is still paying heavily for the long termed hospitality of the Afghan guests.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 6:45 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

HF, "The burden of hospitality fell heavily on the general public of Pakistan."

The same can apply to your forefathers who were refugees once. Please stop talking about narrow minded nationalism.

Prophet SAS said about assabiyah:
"Prophet Mohammad PBUH said that: the people who call towards nationalism, on judgement day their tounges will be catch and they will be draged by their tounges towards hell fire"

The Prophet (saws) has said in one narration: Anyone who calls for asabiyah (nationalism), Anyone who fights for asabiyah (nationalism), Anyone who dies for asabiyah (nationalism), He is not one of us (the Muslims).

In Kitab ul Kafi. It is narrated that the Prophet (saws) said: Whoever possesses in his heart asabiyah (nationalism), even to the extent of a mustard seed, Allah will raise him on the Day of Resurrection with the (pagan) Beduins of Jahiliyahh (ignorance).

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 12:31 #
SufiSoul
Member

When ever Afghan Muhajireen are asked to leave Pakistan.It will mean that Pak Have decided to stop intereference in afghanistan and so peace will be established soon..
This order will have a such an indication, whenever passed.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 12:39 #
Rizwan Qaimkhani
Member

Now the glove is off the hand. Abdul Rahman, your-so-called-status-of-being-righteous-muslim just came off. You are no different than many of your racist brethern. Fake Islamist I say.
How dare you are equalizing us with those people from the Northern border. Did they have contribution in our nation-building: NO. Bloody carnage of Qasba and Aligarh Colony is one of their golden event in our history. Even current Qasba Colony massacre is their deed. Yes it is people like you who are on Taliban payroll trying to make them heros. These hadiths and riwayats, we are quite aware, go teach them to these animals who were few days back celebrating Indian Independance Day in their 'refugee camps'. Good one, it shows what this so called muslim sons of the soil think of us. Come back and talk to us when these good-for-nothing do something for the betterment of a common Pakistani.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 13:25 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

""who were few days back celebrating Indian Independance Day in their 'refugee camps'""

Don't generalize please. Who were they? Apparently Karzai or Northern alliance supporters. They should be packed to India. And that too send them to Gujarat ruled by mass murderer Modi. Once again as many have commented here, please do not lump all together. We keep our standards as it should be irrespective of such traitors.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 14:51 #
Dusky
Member

Since the birth of Pakistan, Afghanistan opposing Pakistan. So called Muslim neighbor was the only country in the world who oppose Pakistan admission to United Nations in 1947. Afterward, they intervene in Pakistan's to destabilize through out the history through NAP/Ghaffar Khan and always supported India over Pakistan in international arena. Russian intervention gives Pakistan a chance to return the favor and ever since Afghans are reaping what they sow long ago.

At state level Afghans were never friend of Pakistan and they never will. People at grass root level may be a different story. Solution I would like to see is Iranian model. Confine them to their camps rather then running them loose everywhere in Pakistan. This will take off the economic and societal pressure off from Pakistani people/cities.

Those who are drawing a parallel between the immigrants migrated to Pakistan in 1947 vs. Afghans. Their is no comparison to begin with.
Immigrants of 1947 fought the war of Pakistan's independence, they put the foundation of an independent country (where even the so called religious scumbags are independent to mock whatever they don't like, who otherwise were licking Hindus boots in united India).
What Afghan's have done to earn a right to stay in Pakistan besides tearing down the social fabric of the country?

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 15:37 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

What Afghan's have done to earn a right to stay in Pakistan besides tearing down the social fabric of the country?

Dusky, You don't seem to understand the root cause of all this mayhem and it is occupation first by Soviets and then by US/NATO? If real Afghans would not have resisted red army, they would have been in Karachi sitting on the beaches. As current events are unravelling lets say America will occupy sarzameen. Where will you go? India?

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 16:00 #
Dusky
Member

"If real Afghans would not have resisted red army, they would have been in Karachi sitting on the beaches."

That's a hypothetical argument, I can come-up with many many "If's and But's" which has nothing to do with situation at hand.

As I said above, this hatred between Pakistan and Afghans exist since the birth of Pakistan. Has nothing to do with red/blue or green army. Where was the brotherly love of "real afghan" back then?

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 17:32 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

Dusky, You accept and worship the boundaries demarcated by your erstwhile Masters and I don't. I have nothing to do with any country that has surrogate birth or death. The day will surely come when there will be no more geographical boundaries that were created by colonialist Masters. They made sure that these boundaries will be cause of fitna and bickering which have been going on since they gave "birth" to yours and our "motherland" 60 years ago. The bickering is clearly evident on this forum as well as the political circus played by corrupt to the core politicians firmly entrenched in power. They were installed by neo colonialists masters of today and are solidly subservient to their new masters. No wonder Allama said:

Apnon ke nadaani bhee dekh
Auron ki ayyari bhee dekh

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 18:26 #
Dusky
Member

Oh so you mean their were no geographical boundaries in Muslim world at the time of Last Prophet (PBUH) or during the period of the caliphs or after-wards?
If they were their, and Last Prophet (PBUH), the caliphs and then their followers did not dis-mental them, then who the heck are you to come-up with this retarded concept? Since when "Geographical boundaries" start confining your Musalmaniat?

Read the last sermon over and over again.... try to grasp the concept of "Arabi" and "Agami".. If last Prophet (PBUH) did not abolish the local identity of Muslims, who the heck are you to do so?

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 18:54 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

You better consult your local Mullah. No problem even if he is secular Mullah. The distinction of Arab and Ajam was soley based on taqwa-Piety. Nothing else. When European clowns are following the sunnah and moving towards EU with one passport and one Union, our clowns are debating whether it was sanctioned or not. Umar RA made it clear during his caliphate that if there are 2 Khalifas kill one of them. One Ummah and one Khailfa will remain the cherished goal until doomsday and it will be realised soon like it or not. How many we have today?

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 19:09 #
Dusky
Member

"You better consult your local Mullah. No problem even if he is secular Mullah. The distinction of Arab and Ajam was soley based on taqwa-Piety."

Exectly my point, he did not say from today you are not "Arab and Ajam" anymore. He keep their identities.

"Umar RA made it clear during his caliphate that if there are 2 Khalifas kill one of them."

Did he order to eliminate the border between Hijaz and Syria or per say between Arab and Iraq of the day?

"When European clowns are following the sunnah and moving towards EU with one passport and one Union, our clowns are debating whether it was sanctioned or not."

Where is the memo about abolishing the "geographical borders" in Europe?

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 19:15 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

Did he order to eliminate the border between Hijaz and Syria or per say between Arab and Iraq of the day?

There were governors appointed. The criteria was pure taqwa and not necessarily governor from same region. Check history

Europe will be moving towards Islam and will do the same. Please google Murad Hoffman, German Ambassador who embraced islam. He predicts islam will be future of Europe in this century. Check his Book: Islam the alternative"

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 19:23 #
Dusky
Member

"There were governors appointed. The criteria was pure taqwa and not necessarily governor from same region. Check history"

You did not answer my question: Did he order to eliminate the "geographical borders" between the Muslim states (where he nominated his governors)OR he kept their identities?

And no, I don't go with individual accounts. It's tid for ted. Same internet is full of filthy former Muslims, who sale their religion for their own reasons.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 19:30 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

Yes, he eliminated geographical boundaries between nation states and establishe one Ummah. Look at great Muslims like Abysina, Alqqawarismi, Algebar, Bukhari, Abu Hanifa etc etc. They were born in for example one city Bukhara, grew up in Bagdad, preached in Cairo and settled in Spain. Why? This wsas because their passport was kilima and did not represent any ethnic or racial entity. Those Governors were meant for adminsitrative reasons and were subject to change. And that resulted in this link which West is still trying to imitate.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/hewlettpackard.htm

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 20:06 #
Rizwan Qaimkhani
Member

I know it is derailing but it is necessary to make this point:
Sir Spain was never part of great Islamic Empire just like the India was a separate muslim entity. I would say there is difference between Islamic and muslim; unlike the Middle Eastern Islamic empire, India was conquered for economical reasons, with all the due respect, that makes it muslim governed state but not Islamic as state did not propagate Islam nor they made any efforts to establish Islamic shariah.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 20:47 #
Dusky
Member

No, he did not eliminated the geographical boundaries, with geographical boundaries him or any other ruler maintained the jurisdictions of various governors.

Concept of passport is very modern, so don't confuse with that. Muslim or not, one was not required passport to travel to friendly or hostile countries back in the days. Borders were not guarded same way either. Whole notion of nationality is/was being belongs to a region. PBUH and his follower never tried to eliminate this notion. Islam never talked about eliminating the geographical boundaries.

Your example of Europe is doing the same, they are forming a union without dismantling their geographical boundaries.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 20:48 #
quaidkamazaar
Member

AbdulRahman Saahab,

if Afghan and Pakistani are all muslim and nationality does not matter.... then why Afghans side with Indians??? why is it in their nature to be against Pakistan???

i do not hate Afghans, but if someone hates my country, I hate them back. you live in some fake world where there are no borders.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 21:11 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

Rizwan, Agreed but nevertheless Mughals recognised the Central Caliphate but due to vast geographic disparity and lack of communications they were unable to formulate one entity and another reason was the hardcore Safavids of Iran who revived the pagan practices among Shias and were preventing the unification of Ummah. Safavids threw a monkeys wrench like barrier in between the great Empires and also Mughals were Turks and did not understand Arabic and Islam that much. The scholars said about the Turks

They loved Islam more than they understood it.

Allama too agreed about India

Teghzani kartre the na hum hukumat ke liye
ladte the hum tere naam ki azmat k eliye

They were after hukumat in India unlike the earlier generations.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 21:16 #
stingingnettle
Member

"That division pales into insignificance compared to the present day banana republics that were created by colonialists. Let us read this link. I don't think this was blood soaked history but the superiority of Islamic civilization is even acknowledged by Kuffar.."

Yes, it does pale into insignificance compared to today, and that is only because they didn't have the right weapons then. They did a pretty good job given what they had, much better proportionally to today.

So you must have read books written by Kuffar? Care to provide any references by literature written by Kuffar? You have conveniently ignored the fact that Kuffar couldn't have written pleasant things about muslims 99.999% of the time?

The question is how you think not what you think. If you make up your mind first and then look for evidence to support it then you will wander in a dark room with no exit. Historical perspective always require a ranges of sources talking about the same event and this proper way of teaching history has never been used in Pakistan. The result of this is we have produced generation of self-righteous believers who wouldn't know critical reasoning if it fell on their heads like a tonne of bricks. To use the gift of 'Aqal' that Allah has given us, we need to use it to ponder and think in a fair, just and objective manner.

I notice with interest the amount of food, medical and disaster aid Pakistan gets from Kaffar. Whilst the true believers cannot even invent a light bulb or make the simplest of medicines to save a dying child, you harp on about past greatness as if that will be enough to save us. Nostalgia is a fools paradise and saves no one. You can't even manufacture the weapons you need to defend your country without technology and licenses from Kuffar. Dare I remind you that the F-16 that allows you to sleep easy at night were and are made by kuffar. I will repeat, you need to get off your high horse and walk the earth.

Last but not the least, the brutality muslims have demonstrated towards other muslims is of breath-taking proportion. I won't bore you with all the examples but I leave with the death of Mohammad bin Qasim; I wonder if kuffar killed the bringer of faith to the sub-continent?

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 21:33 #
stingingnettle
Member

The above post is addressed to Abdul Rehman

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 21:33 #
Abdul Rahman
Member

Stingkettle,

Dare I remind you that the F-16 that allows you to sleep easy at night were and are made by kuffar

They can go to moon and build F16 and F1116 and other high tech gadgets. That does not mean anything.

The so called civilized world with the latest state of the art high tech weapons led by war criminals that are mostly graduates of Harvard, Yale and Oxford are pinned down in mountains of Afghanistan against bare handed madrasa grads who have track record of destroying so called super powers in the past. Ever heard of asymmetrical warfare?

Sting says " Last but not the least, the brutality muslims have demonstrated towards other muslims is of breath-taking proportion."

Let us look at what Murad Hoffman, a kuffar turned Muslim had to say about West and who killed whom.

Let us now take a good look at the record of that marvelous, self-appointed center of rationality, the enlightened Western world. Since the 18th century, in contrast to the high ideals pronounced and exported, what one discovers in terms of actual behavior is highly disturbing: Slave-trading and apartheid; two savage world wars; Stalinist massacres and the Nazi holocaust; colonialism, extermination of native populations ethnic (in reality, religious) cleansing in Bosnia, and atomic warfare against civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You can easily come up to half billion-500,000,000 dead.

These disasters were the bloodiest the world has ever seen. But even if Western people were not at war with each other, they have behaved violently against nature: against animals, plants and even minerals-to the point that the destruction of resources and environmental disasters like air pollution threaten the survival of mankind.

None of the bloody excesses I mentioned took place in the Muslim world; and yet the West, in spite of such a record, has the nerve to ask the rest of the world to follow its example and to deny not only the existence, but also the possibility, of an alternative.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 22:10 #
stingingnettle
Member

Abdul Rehman
Thank you for your comments; here goes the reply
‘asymmetrical warfare?’
I am pleased to see that you are happy to use the terminology of the kuffar to talk about momin warfare. Have you considered conducting ‘asymmetrical warfare’ on illiteracy, ignorance and sectarianism? I must have misunderstood the purpose of a madarsa; I thought it was a place to acquire ‘ilm’. I must disappoint you by telling you that hardly from Havard, Yale or Oxford are fighting anywhere in the world, they are way too smart for that. They are busy discovering new cures, producing medicine, inventing new machines and even making some money for their materialistic life. You need to go from narrow-band to broadband on this to understand where the world is heading. How about ‘asymmetrical warfare’ to produce water pumps so that people can have clean water to drink?
I hope you didn’t go to a madarsa to learn Math because if you did, you need to ask for your intelligence back. Even a fantasist like you can just see that the Maths does not add up. As I said muslims have never had access to quality weapons at the right time otherwise they would never have allowed the kuffar to take all the credit for ‘half a billion dead’. To suggest that the world wars were something to with kuffar vs. others is demonstrating your total lack of any understanding of history. Even if your so called kuffar did do all that damage you suggest, perhaps we should not use it as an excuse for saying we are just underachievers in the field of killing and destruction.
I asked you to tell me about the kuffars you have read and you came up with the one guy who does not qualify as a proper kafir, ie he converted obviously impressed by the brilliant reasoning offered by the believers.
The West or East does not have the intention or the nerve to tell the perfect people of Afghanistan and Iraq what to do and how to do it, they just want the people of the region to get a grip and have some kind of governance.
I will leave you with the first word of the Quran; ‘Iqra…’
Did you notice in the same verse there is a mention of ‘ilm’

Do something different, read with an open mind and an open heart. Propaganda is just stagnant water, whether it is created by the “kuffar” or you by your ‘asymmetrical’ madarsa warriors.
I will concede that the people of Pakistan, Afghanistan and elsewhere must find solution to their own problems. But given the quality of reasoning and education, that is not about to happen.
I must leave it at that. We must continue to live on our different planets.

Posted 7 months ago on 03 Oct 2011 22:54 #