zingaro
Member
Guys! I have received an email today and the following link in that about some allegations on the religion of Navy Chief. The write has also repeated the allegation which was put on Rehman Malik before some days here, and i resisted that idea. But such an allegation has been appearing from different sides.
Please check this link and comment.
amin1924
member
Govt or system are not run by one person. There is whole establishment that works and follows guidelines coming from somewhere.
Let us say for the sake of argument that Rahman & Bashir are Qadhiani. Then what? There is whole bureaucracy under them who follow as they say.
Are army generals also qhadianni? Is nawaz sharif also qadhiani? Why are they all silently following the same lines as these "qhadianis".
zingaro
Member
JJ Khan you have raised certain valid points as in the normal course of life it should not happen that chief is Qadyani and all subordinates are following him so they are fool. These Qadyanis don't declare themselves as Qadyanis, and they also have long term planning. They are well connected and I know them personally. One of their members confessed that their "jamat" can be assembled on one hour notice. The point here is not to talk about their style but to know that what if by any chance, Qadyanis reach to our top positions. Secondly, do you think that people in the top bureaucratic hierarchy consider religion an important thing to bother about such position holders?
The problem will be to us, to the Muslims at large.
zjshami
Member
There should not be any objection about the faith where a person is performing his/her professional duties according to the requirements of the job.
There have been Mr. Jogindar Nath Mandal, Justice
A.R. Cornelius , Rana Bhagwan Das, Sir Zafarullah Khan, Dr. Abdul Salam and some other prominet non-Mulims, who proved to be dedicated Pakistanis.
One should not bother about the race or religion of a physician if he/she is sincerely trying to save life of the patient.
Pakistan cannot afford the promotion of racial and ethnic hatred, anymore.
@zingaro
What are you doing man? You have dug up another nice topic!
@JJ Khan, I agree with zingaro: 'These Qadiyanis don't declare themselves as Qadiyanis, and they also have long term planning.'
Now this is not a secret any more that Qadiyanis are supported by the Zionists and they do behave and act as they are Muslims but the fact is they are non Muslims who are even more dangerous than one who confesses that he is a non Muslim.
We at all level of our existence should be wary and aware of these turncoats who are nothing else than a wolf in a sheep's skin. Not only this, we should expose them and warn others of their existence in our societies on 'who is who' basis.
Hats off to Shaheed Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who got them declared non Muslims and one of the minorities in Pakistan.
linkwheel
Member
Welcome Back Mirza Sahab!
The Article is Really Good,are Ismaili and Qadyani's same Breed. Sorry for my Ignorance and where is Qadyan? and where do they Worship? and is it Legal to Appoint Qadyani's on High Ranked Post's under the 1973 constitution?
@linkwheel
Thanks a lot. I am just trying to keep my mind busy.
smali
Member
if true its a matter of worry but needs more substantial evidence- this article was unfortunatelly not a mature writing even
@smali
Welcome to pkpolitics discuss forum. Agreed that its a matter of worry and that the article was not a mature diction is what you mean. But the message has been conveyed!
shriq
Member
I know Qadianis who dont declare themselves Qadianis!
Have you ever visited Rabwa? Do you know how organised they are? When I went to Rabwa with my Qadianii class fellow, I was scared to see their system.
This small town has a very good library (where you would find readers not book thieves). It has good hospital with competent doctors, where Muslims go for treatment of the diseases and healthcare facility that they dont find in their parts of Pakistan. They have three organisations one dealing with youth (men under 18), second for people above 18 and third for women. They have one Ziafat khana where anyone from any part of the world can stay and he/she would be given food there. They have their religious schools which have equivalent facilities as modern universities have. My rough guess is that out of 10 Qadianis 9 become university graduates. They are in engineering, medicine, army, beaurocracy, business. They get lectures on how to set businesses the modern way. They send 10% or more of their income to Rabwa. Thousands of them have moved to USA, Canada, UK and Europe. Financially a very settled group of people.
Migel9
Member
All terrorist activities are related to these traitors.
Holy Prophet Mohammed SAAW says:
"You are not faithful unless you love me more than
your father, your son and the whole mankind."
(Sahih Bukhari)
Dear Qadianis/Ahmadis/Lahoris/Mirzais!!
Peace be upon those who follow the right path.
Here is a test for your loyalty and faithfulness, that is if you believe that you are a Muslim. Look deep down into your hearts and honestly judge for yourself, who is your focus?
Is it Syedna Mohammed SAAW, the last and final Messenger of Allah, after whom there is No Prophet in any sense of the word?
OR
Is it Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, who claims to be the 'Zil', 'Burooz', Second Advent etc etc of Holy Prophet Mohammed SAAW?
This tradition of Syedna Mohammed SAAW provides you a criterion to make up your mind and gives you an incentive to leave aside all your expediences for the sake of this love. It gives you the strength needed to denounce ahmadiyyat/qadianiyat and revert to the fold of Islam.
We invite you all to come back to Islam and strenghthen our hands.
May Allah gives you an insight to know what is right and what is wrong and open your hearts for Islam.
Ameen.
@Shriq
Correct as you have mentioned about their modus operandi and infrastructure but allow me to add a bit more. The real infrastructure and main operatives are based abroad and not just in Pakistan.
I wonder if is was a memory slack or else you failed to mention a feature of what Rabwah is or was most known - Janat Ul Firdous!
Their target/aim - conversion, and if not than dilution of faith of Muslims.
Outcome - Not a possibility as the target population is 1/5th of the populated world. They are and will remain a minority.
Qadiyanis from Pakistan are favoured in USA, Canada, UK and Europe as they claim asylum - reason being religious discrimination. They are favoured (when compared to others seeking just immigration) and granted asylum/citizenship in no time.
Many of my Qadiyani acquaintances are now settled abroad too.
linkwheel
Member
My Uncle's Driver Told me tht he used to Work with a Qadyani and Once he tok him to their Rabwa and their they asked him to Convert and also offered him Woman and Money and he also told me tht they have different Burial system they make 2 Corner's in there cemetery one is called heaven and the other portion is Called HELL.
P.S. A Qadyani Site: http://www.rabwah.net/
shikra
Blocked
" is it Legal to Appoint Qadyani's on High Ranked Post's under the 1973 constitution? "
"Linkwheel"
1. Yes Sir it is according to the Constitution of 1973, where Mr. Justice Bhagwan Dad was appointed as Judge of the Supreme court of Pakistan.
2. Qadyanis have been declared Non-Muslims by the Qauid-i-Awam, Great Zulfiqar Ali Bhutoo. Is it according to the COC of the Pkpolitics to ridicule a Non-Muslim Minority living in Pakistan?
3. It is surprising to watch where Moderator also started violating the COC by participating the debate what could have been CLOSED, had that been about Christians or Hindus.
I guess it was in the COC, not to discuss any Religion at the Forum at all.
amin1924
member
Hello Mr. Shikra
Please do not twist the discussion into "Is it according to the COC of the Pkpolitics to ridicule a Non-Muslim Minority living in Pakistan?"
We are talking about political and ruler elites, not minorities.
Before blaming, do provide evidence to support your allegation.
Why you all 'three' are profiling against Mirza sb?
expakistani
Member
Apparently shadat is the cheapest thing in Pakistan, suicide bombers are shahehed , People fightig in South Wazeristan gettng shahdat... Birgder who died in Islamabd got shahdat
Commandos died during GHQ saga are shaheddd
An now
Look like Ahmadies are also getting shahdat ....
http://www.rabwah.net/ahmadi-major-afzal-mehmood-shaheed-burried-in-rabwah/
Qadiyanis are non Muslims as officially declared by the Pakistan Government.
Qadiyanis are friends of Zionists and are active against Muslims of the whole world is common knowledge now.
We are discussing a minority that inspite of being declared non Muslims is pretending to be a Muslim and insisting to be called or known as a Muslim.
We should expose such 'pretenders', an it has got nothing to do with the code of conduct. Same goes for those who belong to other religions but infilterate our ranks pretending as Muslims.
amin1924
member
Actually the position or status a person holds is very important politically because it holds power and influence on national policy making.
If a person happens to be non-muslim while acting as Muslim and holds significant political position then people have all the rights to expose those hypocrites.
We are discussing people of power here which is related with political discussion.
If a Qadiyani was cleaning toilet, no one would care, but if one is Navy Chief then people will care because people of Pakistan have declared them non-Muslim after a fierce struggle and there is history of enmity.
@Semirza ,
welcome back ...
to topic :
yes ,we should NOT have Non muslims at the crucial posts .
they can never be our friends or well wishers .
and they join always sensitive posts for some reasons.
they have got agendas .
as they never liked the fact that Pakistan treated them as Non Muslims.
zingaro
Member
Qadyanis are different from other minorities. For example a christian or a jew has no shame to openly say that he is that. A hindu has no shame to say that he is a hindu. But these Qadyanis say that they are Muslims and as per their definition, everyone who has no faith in Mirza Ghulam, is a Non-Muslim. So those who consider we are criticizing a minority are certainly wrong.
Secondly, Rana Bhagwan Das example can not be presented to this case as he was a justice for a written law and was under the constitution. But if a Qadyani is there, he will not admit that he is a non-muslim, so his case is entirely different.
Now i tell you an incident about Caliph Omar (RAA). He came to know that one of his governors has appointed a Jew to look after province's financial matters. He called the governor and asked for such appointment. The governor said that the Jew is the most competent person for that post. The reply from Caliph was worth golden words. He said assume that the Jew is died.
"Ahmadies are also getting shahdat."
"Expakistani"
When Bhagat Singh and Ram Mohammad Singh Azad (Sardar Udham Singh, who killed General Dyer in London)) were acknowledged as Shaheeds, no one objected.
**********************
If Terrorists and Talibans claim to be Muslims, we should not get offended if Qadyani also do so.
(The Definition of a Muslim is still a debatable topic among the Islamic World.)
**********************
Any Pakistani citizen could be appointed to a position and post according to the provisions of the Constitution, irrespective of caste, creed, color of faith, if he/she qualifies for the position.
*********************
The philosophy of Hatred should be discouraged to make Pakistan a better living place.
*******************
Any one who is performing his job related assignments sincerely, promoting and protecting the National Interests and serving the Humanity, should be appreciated even if he is Dr. Abdul Salam or Abdul Salam Edhi or Sir Ganga Ram or Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Shaheed or Khawaja Rafiq Shaheed, or my cousin Brig. Ahsan Rashid Shami Shaheed.
@Any Pakistani citizen could be appointed to a position and post according to the provisions of the Constitution, irrespective of caste, creed, color of faith, if he/she qualifies for the position.
@Sheikh sahib ,
being a Muslim is the first requirement of holding any crucial post ....according to the constitution .
@ Beena,
No.
This requirement is only for the position of President.
(I am not sure about the status on Prime Minister.
I will consult the Constitution.)
I guess you missed or overlooked the lines:
"according to the provisions of the Constitution"
"if he/she qualifies for the position"
Asif Ahmed Ali is NAvy Chief??
Are you crazy? He was foriegn minister.
One thing you must accept , they are the only united and organised comunity of Pakistan.
zingaro
Member
@Javedshaikh
1- Please check the history and Muslims never declared Baghat or any other singh as shaheed, so your point is void that no one objected. It is even not our concern if tomorrow Americans say that J.F. Canaddy was a shaheed. Even in India they use this word Shaheed for their killed soldiers. But don't we know who is an actual Shaheed? Are you trying to invent the new meaning of Shaheed, just because Qadyanis were objected?
2- I hate to the approach of Taliban and favor our army but what is the point in equating Taliban and Qadyanis? Taliban clearly say that they are fighting against us because we are aiding US and it is certainly a political clash which is supported with arms. We are combating them and you say that both are equal?
3- Why it is a matter of hatred when we object to Qadyanis? Why not you consider it hatred when Qadyanis say that those who do not have faith in their mirza ghulam, are kaafir and their women are bitches? Does your intellect find any hatred in their such faith or not?
Javed Sahib .. I don't know which beliefs you hold, but being a Muslim I suggest you to kindly study about them, their books, their actual beliefs. I have not only studied their own books, but have saw them very closely.
amin1924
member
Zingaro, your observations are pretty good.
@ Zingaro,
1. The topic was started with an objection that a Qadyani shouldn't be appointed at an important position in Pakistan.
I disagree with this demand as it is contrary to the provision of the Constitution as posted earlier by some other members.
2. The status of Qadyianis has already been settled, at least in Pakistan where they have been declared a Minority.
There is nothing left to discuss that issue anymore.
3. The Title of Shaheed for Bhaghat Singh and Ram Mohammad Singh Azad, was never objected or rejected by any section of the Muslim Scholars, representing 180 Millions of Indian Muslims.
4. The saga of every political, economic and social issue is orchestrated and cultivated with the seeds of hatred.
The ethnic hatred, unfortunately is at its climax at Pakistan's Discussion and Opinion forums.
The very spirit of this thread is not to solve any issue but to motivate ethnic hatred.
5. I am not obliged to disclose the preferences about my Faith at a public Forum.
But just out of respect for your query, I must admit where I am a simple generic Muslim who wish to follow the footsteps of persons like Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Allama Iqbal, Z. A. Bhutto, Khan Abdul Wali Khan, Husain Shaheed Soharwardi, to the best of my ability.
zingaro
Member
Mods.. i wrote a reply and posted but i saw it not appearing and then saw my id logged out .. :( not fair
NNL
member
Ah
So are the Non-Muslims ( as Declared by the CONSTITUTION OF PAKISTAN) going to quote the IJMA of the Ulema as proofs ?
Do they really believe in the Ijmaa of the Ulema of the Ummah ?
OR are they trying to justify their status as Non Muslims to be an actual fact.
Qadyanis were declared as NonMuslims by the ZAB end of story. No matter how many times the wolf says its a sheep doesnt make it one now does it ?
So Are YOU AS A MUSLIM GONNA FOLLOW THE QUAID AZAM OR ANY OTHER PERSONALITY INSTEAD OF RASOOL ALLAH SALLAHO ALAHI WASALLAM ?
Will that define you as Muslim ?
The definition of a Muslim becomes only debatable when that particular Muslim exits Islam and then still wishes to be claimed as such and brings his stupid and ignorant logic to prove his cause. Then Fool gathers more fools like him and try to make a claim. So when the blind start leading the blind the end result isnt the one intended to be achieved.
Qadyanis are kafirs and Mushriks they very much similar to the Hindus in their beliefs and methodology.
By the Provision of the Constitution the Qadyanis have to declare themselves as such but since they dont it becomes hard to differentiate them. So you see the Hypocrites have always disguised themselves as believers since the time of Rasool Allah Sallaho Alahi wasallam.
So thats nothing to be surprised about !
Nothing to do with mods. You can try to reboot and log on again.
amin1924
member
i also experienced same thing a couple of days ago, text is there, try re-boot.
zingaro
Member
1- Dear Javed Sahib, you said Brig Shami Shaheed was your cousin. If you have any other big rank relative or friend, just ask them if a Qadyani can become their Chief or not. As per my info any non muslim can't reach to the position of Chief.
2- I agree with you that status of Qadyanis settled long back. That is why we demand that these Qadyanis are still violating the constitution by saying that they are Muslims.These are not us but they are responsible for all such hatred. You should also agree that for their violating, there must be some punishment. Now please don't correlate it by saying "aur kis ko yahan saza mili hay jo unko milay".
3- Bhai why Muslims needed to object on Baghat Singh. It was purely their internal matter. They never said that Baghat Singh nay Allah ki raah mein jaan di hay.
4- The common public in Pakistan does not mix any issue with hatred as they are simple Muslims and loyal to their religion. You see despite of their internal differences they will stand united against anyone enemy to their religion. Despite of their simplicity, they are never ready to swallow anything contrary to their prime faith, in the name of patience, harmony, tolerance, etc.
They got this country in the name of religion otherwise what was the problem in living with Hindus? So they have a right to practice and allow only those things which are allowed by their religion and not to bear any Kazzab. Qadyanis are non muslims and they should stop saying they are muslims.
5- I swear to Allah that my motive is not to promote any kind of ethnic hatred but it was to discuss with my Muslim fellows to beware if a black sheep has reached to a top position.
6- I respect your faith and did not require you to disclose.
To follow the footsteps of Mohammad Ali Jinnah could lead me to follow the footsteps of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), as Mohammad Ali Jinnah was declared the Greatest Muslim of 20th Century by Mulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani.
******************
I am least bothered to research about the potency of the validity of the sincerity of a sect towards Religion.
******************
If Qadyianis don't respect the verdict of the Parliament of Pakistan, it is their problem. I guess they are accepted as genuine Muslims in other countries of the World if not in Pakistan. Did any Government in Pakistan ever raised this question to those countries?
*****************
Qadyanis, once declared as Kafirs should be privileged to exercise the Constitutional Rights like other Kafirs living in Pakistan. Is there any provision in the Constitution advising to kill the Kafirs or treat them differently?
zingaro
Member
Javed Sahib.. what thing hinders you to directly say that you are a direct follower of Prophet Mohammad (SAW). Why are you using mediums :)
What is meant by rest of your post that now you are not concerned if they obey the constitution or not. Your guess is absolutely wrong that Qadyanis are considered muslims in other countries. They are Kafir in every country, if they disclose that they follow Mirza Kazzab, Laanti.
At last I strongly support your appeal to grant Qadyanis the right of kafirs. And also expect you to ask Qadyanis to now accept they are kafir and start saying they are not Muslims but Qadyanis.
amin1924
member
Zingaro
You have hit the spot!
Fabulous.
@ Zingaro,
Very good question:
". what thing hinders you to directly say that you are a direct follower of Prophet Mohammad (SAW). Why are you using mediums :)"
My dear, I adopted a simple and smooth passage to reach the footsteps of the Holy Prophet (PBHU).
How I could differentiate my passage and route if I don't specify my guide?
**********
Do you think Qadyanis would accept my 'Bakwas" to compel them for accepting the Status as Kafir?
*************
To be honest, I personally believe that it is now impossible to eliminate, undo or finish any religion, any sect, any religious group, smaller of bigger.
Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Christians, Qadyanis, Shias, Sunnis, Devbandis, Brelvis, Hanbalis, Bahais and so many other groups are going to stay till the Day of Judgment.
The followers of each Group are multiplying genetically.
*************
It would be much wiser to learn how to live peacefully and cordially.
amin1924
member
Shia/Sunni/Devbandi/Brelvi/Hanbali are Muslims
So you might want to shorten your list to:
Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Christians, Qadyani and Bhais.
Come on don't pollute the water on purpose, I know where you getting at :-))
zingaro
Member
Maan gaey Javed Sahib ... kia khoob kahi aap nay .. Hum nay bhi kalma paida hotey hi nahi parha tha Islam aur Prophet (SAW) kay baarey ilham nahi hoey .. lakin poori taaarekh utha kay dekh lejiay kay kisi nay bhi Prophet Mohammad(SAW) ko maannay kay liay kaha ho kay wo pehlay kisi rout ko chose kar raha hay .. aisa "smooth" passage aap kay hi zarkhaiz zehan ki karfarmai ho sakti hay ..
secondly .. ye aap ko kis nay keh dia kay aik Christian ko Christian kehna ya aik kafir ko kafir kehna bakwas hay? ye to haqeeqat hay .. aap kay hath kion dartey hein aisa likhnay ya demand karnay say?
JJ Khan has made good points.. hope aap is baat ko bhi samaj rahay hongey ..
My dear Zingaro,
I don't mind to restart every topic from the elementary level.
"aik Christian ko Christian kehna ya aik kafir ko kafir kehna bakwas hay?"
There is lot of difference.
A Christian, a Hindu, a Sikh, a Jew, a Muslim will never hesitate to show his Identity but will be proud of his status.
The term 'Kafir' is mostly used to ridicule, humiliate, degrade the personality and status of a human being.
As in the US the word 'Niger' is used to humiliate the Blacks and is not appreciated by the Blacks, who are Negros in reality.
In India and Pakistan mostly it is used to insult and tease the opponent. (You know how frequently the term 'Kafir' is being used by different sects. Even Mohammad Ali Jinnah was declared as Kafir by a particular School of Thought in 1946. Now this 'term' has lost its significance and meanings.)
From literary angle, Kafir is a person who refuses to accept the validity of religion.
For a Christian, a non-Christina would be Kafir.
For a Hindu, a non-Hindu would be Kafir and it is an unending process.
this debate is taking a bad shape ........... blaming each other and going off topic ....
zingaro
Member
chalein thek hay to phir Qadyani ko Qadyani kehna ya Non-Muslim to Non-Muslim kehna kaisa hay?
Sorry beenai i am not blaming javedshaikh for any thing ..
@Zingaro,
i m talking about everyone ...
we have taken this thread to somewhere else ...
from where started off.
@ Zingaro,
How I am responsible where the QDNI don't accept to be called as Kafir?
Better you address and discuss this issue with QDNI.
My point since the start of the debate is that according to the Constitution of Pakistan all the Citizens of Pakistan could not be discriminated due to caste, creed, color and concept.
(There might be certain positions where only Muslims could be appointed. I am out of teaching job since long and don't remember)
Do you know the number of QDNI Generals at Pakistan Army during 1965, 1971, and 1980 (Afghanistan) Wars?
Was General Zia ul Haq unaware of their ethnic status?
(To your question about the word Bakwas, I understand you failed to get the message. A QDNI will take it as 'Bakwas' where I call him a kafir. He might respond to my request or advice with:
'Bakwas Bund Karo or Bakwas na kar ooye!'
It would be better and safer for me to stop then and there.
gv
Member
For a nation of 170m people of which at least 90%+ belong to mainstream Islam (90% = ~150m)why are some of us so insecure about our faith?
If the navy chief is a qadiani so what ? why are we so threatened by it? qadianis are estimated to be 4m strong in pakistan(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_Muslim_Community) that is less than 2.5% of the the total population.
There is nothing to stop the people of the Qadiani faith of being good pakistanis and contributing postively to the country and the same applies for all religious minorities in pakistan.
If they believe they are muslims that is a matter between them and their god who are we to decide?
At least have some faith in the strength and sustainability of your own faith and belief system instead of feeling so threatened by a 2% minority..
Once again as a reminder to my friends here - stop looking for external causes to our problems that is a sign of weakness and denial. Look for solutions not scapegoats.
amin1924
member
gv,
Nice try to divide equation by 170 million :-)
Shouldn't the weight be proportional to the position a person holds?
For example one Chief of Army Staff is more powerful than hundreds of thousands of people because of his position.
Why one should not be worried from those who hide themselves and pretend as something else? It is question of loyalty.
gv
Member
Loyalty should be to the state and its current and future progress.
There is no conflict of interest generated by one's personal faith.
Each and every successful political entity in the past has benfitted from appointing leaders based on ability. if the man is able and qualified to carry out his responsibilities than his personal faith is irrelevant.
amin1924
member
Agreed, as long as one doesn't fake it.
If a person fakes in front of people then it is bad.
gv
Member
i don't know too many qadiani's. The few i have met try their best to avoid religious discussions - but i suppose if your life, livelihood and loved ones were constantly threatened by zealots because of your faith you'd probably be scared of admitting your faith in public as well..
zjshami
Member
@ gv,
This debate has been stretched too long.
I appreciate your input and a very good point, rather, a reality that at times one has to hide his/her identity in a hostile situation.
Molvi Sahib from Lal Masjid was running away in a Burqa to save his life.
Maulana Abdul Sattar Niazi had to clean his shave and was hidding in Masjid Wazir Khan, Lahore, during the Khatam-i-Nubbawat Movement in 1954 where Lahore was under Gen. Azam Khan's Martial Law.
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