runaway
Member
Opposition keeps repeating that they are playing a positive role in order to safeguard democracy. Isn't check and balances part of democracy. Does democracy mean a blank check to the government for five years?
What good will come out of supporting democracy if in the end Pakistan loses?
Opposition is wrong, democracy is right. Opposition do not understand what democracy means or as usual they are being munafiq which they are. No democracy expects opposition to shut up on national issues in the name of positive role and yet jump up and down on non-issues such as Zardari's ghair mulki doray. N-League is a liar.
Title of your thread sounds very inaccurate. This kind of statements are used by some politicians to invite their master Kiyani to take over.
aimalkhan
Member
>> What good will come out of supporting democracy if in the end Pakistan loses?
runaway ... please educate us as to how Pakistan can and will win?
saving Pakistan is more important.
and we can save Pakistan,by initiating and supporting True Democracy.
rather supporting or hating fake democracy.
kingsalah
Blocked
@ALL
pakistan is just a piece of land for every land belongs to Allah and democracy is against the political,social and economical system of islam. So in both case we will destroy ourselves by saving pakistan or democracy. How we will be safe that is political social and economical system of ISLAM
shahzad1924
member
true democracy, fake democracy, parliamentary democracy, presidential democracy......
nothing will work!
the only solution is ISLAM
netengr
blocked
Sabzi mandi ki committee main jhagra hogaya ,chanday ka masla ,road ka masla ,police ka masla ,dukan band kernay ka masla ,badmashon ka masla etc etc ,committee kafi saray intezamaat kerti thi kuch achay aur kuch kharabiyan bhi theen .
Aik molvi sahab aye aur kehnay lagay kay sab intezaamon main sabzi mandi ka nizaam un kay paas hay jo "Islami" hay .iss commitee kay intezam un kay hawalay kiya jayeh
kiyon kay
the only solution is Islam
zjshami
Member
"About forms of Government let the fools contend. That is the best which is administered best."
(Reader's Digest- 1956)
Nothing would work better to save and improve Pakistan, where people don't respect the Rule of Law.
There are countries which became stronger and successful with Democracy in its worst form.
The cause of their success lies in unity, faith, discipline and civic sense of its population.
shriq
Member
netengr, dont get angry.
Islam does not give every procedure, methods, modus operandi, work instruction, job specification. Agreed. It does not state anywhere how to run affairs of sabzi mandi. Or nowhere it tells how mechanical engineer would design complex machines. Agreed.
But,
Islam DOES give basic guidelines. If you want to find basic guidelines for all aspects of your life, you SHALL find.
----------------------
runaway
Member
Just to clarify my point was not that we should go back to army rule. However, do we need this expensive democracy e.g. Rs 22 Million spent on Senators in four months. There is complete absence of checks and balancces.
Do we need a simpler model where the MNA/MPA dont get so many priveleges and only serve as people spoke person. And it is mandatory for them to spend time in their constituency and attend parliament sessions.
However, the govt is run by appointed /selected people who are experts in their field.
Revivalist
member
One can not treat patient with virus. Treating Pakistan with democracy is like treating a patient with virus that in fact caused the disease!!!!
Allah (swt) informs: “Verily we have revealed the book to you in truth for instructing mankind.” [Sura Az-Zumar 39:41]
@Revivalist,
but you have to agree that many of the islamic laws are quite democratic in their nature .
Revivalist
member
Dear Beenai,
The premise that many of the Islamic laws are quite democratic in their nature is absurd. It shows how much the west and his pawns are successful in putting their words in our mouth. Dear, Islamic laws are Islamic, they are neither communist, capitalist, democratic etc in nature. However I agree that there might be some sort of similarities but yet due to some similarities we can't label Islam as democratic i.e. wolf has four legs, two eyes, one nose etc but we can’t call it sheep. I hope you understand my point.
Regards
zjshami
Member
Exploring whole of the circumstantial situation, I get disappointed to conclude that the establishment of Khilafat could never take place at least for a few more centuries.
A deep rooted anti-Khilafat force and culture would never let the Institution of Khilafat, reemerge.
The history of Khilafat is also confusing, contradictory and vague.
Presently no model of Khilafat is available to gauge the comparison and contrast.
However, it is a very noble, attractive and healthy topic for discussion and debating and good for keeping a section of intellectuals, busy.
Debates like these,as shallow as they are, end up wasting everyone's time. No one gets convinced and no one gets to understand anyone's point. It is just like two children fighting and saying, Meray daddy achay nahi, doosraa bacha kahay, nahi meray daddy ziyada achay hein.
People, if someone is saying democracy does not work then he must provide reasons to back his argument. Similarly, if someone is claiming Islam is the solution then you must explain what is "Islamic system" of government and how democracy is unislamic.
Arguments like "democracy kafiraana nizaam hai", democracy yahood-o-hanood kee saazish hai does not count.
There is no "Islamic" system of government. Religion gives guidelines and thats it. Prophet Mohammad's "system" of government i-e- personal rule, does not apply because he had the divine knowledge and divine right to be the head of state. No other person can be trusted with the same amount of power and authority as prophets. Yes, we should follow the guidelines, but "system" of government could be democracy.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
No. There is no need to save democracy which defies the law of the land, that doesn't improve the lives of the people it is ruling over. Illegal democracy doesn't matter.
What matters is;
1) Rule of Islam over Muslims of Pakistan, in Pakistan
2) Rule of LAW that obeys Islam
I agree with shahzad1924. Islam is the answer to ALL of our problems.
Islam is a complete way of living our life. Islam has ALL the answers to our problems, be them social, financial, injustice, educational, etc etc, ALL the answers are in Islam.
We Muslims want to live according to Islam in this country. That is why this country was made.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@zjshami: When Prophet of ALLAH ALMIGHTY Muhammad (SAW) says that Khilafat will return, who are you or me or anyone to challenge it?
Our goal should be to move towards establishment of Islam's ways of life. If you are a Muslim, educate! yourself about your culture. If you claim, you are loyal to Muhammad (SAW), Prophet of ALLAH ALMIGHTY, then you should make efforts to know him, be like him, follow his ways.
P.S. The road to improvement begins, when you accept the fact the we ALL make mistakes
Explain to me what is Islamic system of government and how is it better than democracy.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: I don't know the answer to your question. I'm not an Aalim-e-Deen. I'm a student of Islam. I'm also reading, learning about it.
I would suggest reading, learning about the following eras' to know about Islamic system of government;
Study life events of;
- Muhammad (SAW)'s life
- Sahab-e-Karaam
- TA-be-EEN
- Tabe-TA-be-EEN
These are the four eras' Muhammad (SAW) cited as examples for us to follow.
I would also suggest, watching the series of videos on Khliafat by Zaid Hamid to get rough idea(s) about it.
Sahab-e-Karaam got appointed and approval from majority of tribal cheifs of Makkah.
Who is the tribal chief of Karachi, Lahore, Gujranwala and Multan? Also, what are the name of tribes living in Sialkot?
Who were the tribal chiefs of makkah? representative of awam. At that time they had a method of selecting tribal chiefs. How do you select tribal chief in today's time? Is asking awam to select their own representative unislamic?
Again, Prophet Mohammad's rule and system of governemnt i-e personal rule can not be applied for the reasons I gave in my previous post. Yes, governance guidelines must be followed but the "system" of government i-e personal rule does not apply.
Harris, all I am saying is do not disregard democracy just because it was first practiced in its new form in western nations.
aimalkhan
Member
And we can ask you to watch a series of videos of Allama Javed Ahmed Ghamidi on the issue of Islamic State and System to understand that the constituition of Pakistan, as it is today, is Islamic as it is according to the Noble Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW.
That is why JUI/JUP/JI take part in elections. Do you mean to say that Maulana Fazal-ur-Rehman or Qazi Hussain Ahmed have not studied the Qur'an & Sunnah?
I also think Pakistani constitution and Pakistani system of goverment is not unislamic.
aimalkhan
Member
@bsobaid
I fully agree. If we have to get rid of democracy then we should also get rid of all the fans, air-conditioners, cars, planes, all the comodities that make our lives easy .... most of all the computers were are using to have this debate because they are all made by Yahood-o-Nahood.
Jazak'Allah
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
I am not qualified to continue this discussion. However, I know the following;
A lot of work needs to be done in the details in the constitution of Pakistan.
I also know that LAW of the land needs to be implemented to establish even democracy.
etc etc
@Harris, I must also say that I know very little and I am still learning and I may be wrong. I also appreciate your honesty. I also appreciate and commend your noble intentions.
If it all about labels then we can call wazeer-e-azam ameeer-ulmomineen and parliament as majlis-e-shoora. Set up a salat system. If this is what it takes then I am all for it but I also understand that such changes do not matter and do not make any difference.
@Haris, I completely agree with this part
"I also know that LAW of the land needs to be implemented to establish even democracy."
Also an Islamic state is a welfar state. Pakistan is probably officially not a welfare state yet.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
As far as my information goes, there are 20+ laws that are not Islam compliant at the moment. Plus, as I mentioned, a lot of work needs to be done in the details of the constitution.
We need un-biased Muslims, who have credibility of unflinching loyalty to Islam, Muslims to achieve the great challenges that are ahead of us.
They are our leaders. They are brave. They are capable.
Unbiased people, those who don't burry themselves in wordly materials, materialistic life, are the ones who should be our leaders.
THOSE leaders will ensure the implementation of a just system. Soon after which, Pakistan shall become a Muslim welfare state.
There will be hurdles, there will be wars, there will be hardships, but INSHALLAH, we will come out successful if we learn, as well as follow Islam.
INSHALLAH
aimalkhan
Member
Yes hariskhan. The constituition needs ammendment and the correct interpretation of Islamic law based on the Qur'an and the Sunnah should be incorporated into the constituition.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Watch this BrassTacks video on Khilafat / Democracy;
http://www.youtube.com/p/DA3C66D1B977A2E1&hl=en&fs=1
It has 3 parts.
Its a MUST!!! watch
I'll watch it. I have never seen his show before. Probably once for 10 minute or so. Its funny but he has this good-looking host who says a couple of sentences in the beginning and in the rest of the program, Zaid Hamid oss bechaari larki ko zor zor se daant raha hota hai. India aur israel kaa saara ghussa oss pay otaar daytaa hai.
aimalkhan
Member
I am glad we have this guy as an answer to Indian RSS and Lalit Singh Moodi but for heaven's sake, please don't take this guy seriously. According to his philosophy even the upset stomach on a few Pakistanis is a hindu jewish CIA sponsored conspiracy.
He didn't understand the term conspiracy when he was fighting America's Jihad in Aghanistan while Israel was killing Palestinians using the same US dollars lekin ab issay Jihad aur khilafat yaad aayi hai.
shriq
Member
It was a nice discussion between you three (bsobaid, Aimal Khan and Hariskhan). I found it enlightening and was impressed by your knowledge, honesty and respect for each other. People like you would change the thought process in Pakistan inshaAllah.
As you said above, democracy is not UN-ISLAMIC. I agree fully.
In the beginning the Khulafa were selected by Shura. This is one type of vote. That could be applicable for that era only! We cant apply that now. Alhamdulillah we are more than 170 million (Correct me, if wrong). We need some other system to elect our heads of state and other people in power. Now there has to be a comrehensive system right from selecting the people to govern and the ways to govern (constitution). Democracy provides such system. You may have differences at few places with democratic system. Discuss, convince or get convinced. Change if you convince others. Let it be as it is if you get convinced. We cant find every procedure and system in Prophet Muhammad or Sahaba's life. But we can find the basic principles and we should weigh and judge every system on those basis.
quaidkamazaar
Member
you know what you guys talk about a lot of complex things but just forget a basic idea...
For democracy to run, feudalism needs to be erased in its entirety from Pakistan.
MNAs and MPAs should not be from the elite class or from heirarchical blood line.
this whole mindset needs to go out the window.
thats all.... democracy will be saved. pakistan will be saved and then we'll really realize our true potential.
aimalkhan
Member
@Shariq
Thanks for the nice comments.
@QKM
Agreed. The way to flush out feudalism is none other than democracy. History tell us that only when the democratic process was stopped and a dictator was imposed Pakistan, did this country turn these feudals into saints and holy people.
shriq
Member
Yes,
democracy will be saved. pakistan will be saved. InshaAllah.
If in a democratic system, voters are allowed to vote without an pressure, then even the people from land lords, or industrialists would be selected on merit.
The important thing is to remove pressure from voters.
shahzad1924
member
@shriq - "As you said above, democracy is not UN-ISLAMIC. I agree fully.
In the beginning the Khulafa were selected by Shura. This is one type of vote. That could be applicable for that era only! We cant apply that now."
i dont know why this keeps coming up again and again. but anyway.....
first of all, "khulafa being selected by the shura" is not correct. all four khulafah-e-rashideen were selected by the consent of the ummah at large.
secondly, voting is not democracy.
shahzad1924
member
and on the topic of feudalism, in my opinion democracy is simply feudalism in a nice suit with a nice tie. i condemn both the feudalism in the dhoti and democracy in the suit.
and if you somehow manage to remove the landlords from the ruling elite, the next generation of flag bearers of democracy would become the new landlords. this is an inherent problem with democracy.
shriq
Member
Ok,
secondly, voting is not democracy.
Explain.
What is democracy in your opinion? And how it is against Islamic principles?
shriq
Member
Also how we can get the consent of the ummah at large now in say 2009.?
shahzad1924
member
"What is democracy in your opinion? And how it is against Islamic principles?"
democracy is rule of the people, for the people and by the people. so, in democracy people have the right to legislate. yes the leader is elected through general elections but that's also in Islam. the thing that separates democracy from Islam is the fact that in democracy people have the right to legislate. whereas in Islam the right to legislate is only for Allah. and there are various evidences for this from the Quran and Sunnah and they have been discussed before.
"Also how we can get the consent of the ummah at large now in say 2009.?"
its even easier today. just put up a website!
aimalkhan
Member
@shahzad
You are taking the definition of democracy at face value. Democracy does not mean tomorrow 51% can decide to kill the remaining 49% population. In democracy every individual has certain civil rights and that is what Islam is about. Rights of individuals. I think we need to get rid of rhetoric and start exmaining at issues beyond their surface.
I asked this question before and I will ask you again.
If the democractic process in Pakistan was unislamic, then why do you think JUI/JUP/JI leaders (who are religious scholars) take part in this process?
shriq
Member
Two questions more please!
One. If the any new legislation is required (say for example internet fraud), there is no punishment for this in Islamic law, then with the guidelines of Islamic principles, new legislation can be made. It is allowed to do IJTIHAD on that. If you differ on any clause in the legal system, you can discuss and get it changed. Do you agree to the above?
Two. The general consent can not be taken by websites, how many people have web access in our country?
shahzad1924
member
"Democracy does not mean tomorrow 51% can decide to kill the remaining 49% population."
i didn't say that either. i just said that in democracy, people have the right to legislate, which is not allowed in Islam.
"If the democractic process in Pakistan was unislamic, then why do you think JUI/JUP/JI leaders (who are religious scholars) take part in this process?"
why are you asking me? i speak for myself and i speak what i think is right. and im open to discussion. if some XYZ does something in the name of Islam then im not responsible for it
shahzad1924
member
@shriq
1 - agreed
2 - that was just ONE method.
aimalkhan
Member
Shahzad, like what shariq said, there are several areas of legislation where Qur'an and Sunnah of the prophet is silent. E.g. the traffic system. What is does the sharia say about which side of the road you can drive on? Left or right? What will be the punishment for running a red light etc.
The Qur'an and Sunnah of the prophet provides guidelines and in these guidelines people can make laws to govern their systems. So I don't think it is against Islam or the Qur'an.
And yes the Qur'an does say that soverignity belongs to Allah SWT, and it also says that Allah has made man his representative or khaleefa on this earth. So those making laws have to keep this in mind that they are not soverign but are simply doing the task Allah has bestowed upon them.
shahzad1924
member
@Aimal Khan
the Quran and Sunnah is not silent on anything. traffic lights etc. are administrative issues and Islam makes it binding upon the khaleefah to follow the majority opinion of the shura in administrative issues. so, Islam doesn't leave it as an open choice by not saying anything.
but im sure that you would agree that traffic lights are not the reason why we have all these problems in Pakistan. Islam forbids any kind of upper hand of kuffar on Muslims. and the reality is that not only is America present in Pakistan, it is building the next command and control center for the entire region in Islamabad. and "democracy" is silent on this issue. but of course thats another discussion for another day.
and Quran and Sunnah doesn't only provide "guidelines". it provides "details". details on every issue and matter that one can think of.
Yes, saving democracy is most important to save Pakistan.
shriq
Member
@Shahzad,
After seeing your replies, I think both of us are have same opinion about the concept of democracy and Islam.
Allah (SWT) states in Quran,
Atiullaha wa atiurrasool wa oolilamri minkum.
Obey Allah and Obey Rasool (PBUH) and the one who leads you. (Ulama, I leave the precise translation to you.)
What I understand from this ayah is that whenever there is an order of Allah and Rasool on any matter it has to be obeyed. Period.
But if there is no example from Quran and Hadith and early times of Islam then whoever is leading you should be followed (Of course his commands/orders/decisions should not be against Islamic principles).
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Aimal Khan: (sarcasm) traffic rules you ask for? This shows you don't know, read, learn Islam :-) (/sarcasm)
Islam DOES have rules, laws for traffic. We just never read them. Never highlight them. Never implement them.
(sarcasm) Like with ALL other matters, we like to throw away Islam and follow white people.
Why complain when our people operate like slaves towards white people, when our people operate like vicious animals towards our own people, our people operate as those who are 'dependent' on white people for their well being. (/sarcasm)
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