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Is saving democracy more important than saving Pakistan?

(257 posts)
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  1. Aimal Khan

    Shahzad, like what shariq said, there are several areas of legislation where Qur'an and Sunnah of the prophet is silent. E.g. the traffic system. What is does the sharia say about which side of the road you can drive on? Left or right? What will be the punishment for running a red light etc.

    The Qur'an and Sunnah of the prophet provides guidelines and in these guidelines people can make laws to govern their systems. So I don't think it is against Islam or the Qur'an.

    And yes the Qur'an does say that soverignity belongs to Allah SWT, and it also says that Allah has made man his representative or khaleefa on this earth. So those making laws have to keep this in mind that they are not soverign but are simply doing the task Allah has bestowed upon them.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 8:46 #

  2. shahzad1924

    @Aimal Khan

    the Quran and Sunnah is not silent on anything. traffic lights etc. are administrative issues and Islam makes it binding upon the khaleefah to follow the majority opinion of the shura in administrative issues. so, Islam doesn't leave it as an open choice by not saying anything.

    but im sure that you would agree that traffic lights are not the reason why we have all these problems in Pakistan. Islam forbids any kind of upper hand of kuffar on Muslims. and the reality is that not only is America present in Pakistan, it is building the next command and control center for the entire region in Islamabad. and "democracy" is silent on this issue. but of course thats another discussion for another day.

    and Quran and Sunnah doesn't only provide "guidelines". it provides "details". details on every issue and matter that one can think of.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 9:05 #

  3. Anonymous

    Yes, saving democracy is most important to save Pakistan.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 9:26 #

  4. Raavi

    @Shahzad,

    After seeing your replies, I think both of us are have same opinion about the concept of democracy and Islam.

    Allah (SWT) states in Quran,

    Atiullaha wa atiurrasool wa oolilamri minkum.

    Obey Allah and Obey Rasool (PBUH) and the one who leads you. (Ulama, I leave the precise translation to you.)

    What I understand from this ayah is that whenever there is an order of Allah and Rasool on any matter it has to be obeyed. Period.

    But if there is no example from Quran and Hadith and early times of Islam then whoever is leading you should be followed (Of course his commands/orders/decisions should not be against Islamic principles).

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 10:09 #

  5. hariskhan

    Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Aimal Khan: (sarcasm) traffic rules you ask for? This shows you don't know, read, learn Islam :-) (/sarcasm)

    Islam DOES have rules, laws for traffic. We just never read them. Never highlight them. Never implement them.

    (sarcasm) Like with ALL other matters, we like to throw away Islam and follow white people.

    Why complain when our people operate like slaves towards white people, when our people operate like vicious animals towards our own people, our people operate as those who are 'dependent' on white people for their well being. (/sarcasm)

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 14:03 #

  6. shahzad1924

    just a small addition. i dont use "example from Quran and Hadith". i say that every hukm IS in the Quran and Hadith, some evident and some not clear. and the job of the mujtahid is to extract the ahkaam from the sources when the need arises (when a problem arises)

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 14:07 #

  7. hariskhan

    Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    (sarcasm) internet fraud? not covered in Islam? I can almost mark that as a joke.

    Islam covers EVERYTHING. Its us, who are in error, because we do not see it, we do not read it, we do not understand it, we do not look into it, we just throw it away, we look towards white people for our well being. (/sarcasm)

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 14:11 #

  8. Aimal Khan

    Ok brother hariskhan.

    No sarcasm from my side.

    Please quote relevant ayaahs of the Qur'an and Ahadees-e-Nabvi SAW on the DETAILED laws/regulations/legislation on the issues of traffic (e.g. which side of the road show the car be driven and what should be a penalty for running a red light) and internet fraud.

    I hope you will enlighten me with your knowledge of Islam and references from the Qur'an and Hadees books without sarcasm this time.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 14:32 #

  9. Aimal Khan

    @Shahzad

    From my understanding of ur comments. "Ijtihaad" is a nice fancy term invented by molvi hazraat to do legislation (in Islam) themselves but when it comes to respresentatives of the people doing legislation in parliament about wordly issues (that are not concerned religion), then you have a problem with it.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 14:38 #

  10. S.E.Mirza

    @all
    This thread is about democracy vs Pakistan and their importance. All members on this thread are advised to stick to the topics of debate neither diverting the discussion offtopic or getting diverted offtopic.

    Want to discuss Ijtihaad, Quran or Ahadees-e-Nabvi - either search for a previous thread concerning such subjects or open another thread, making sure duplicate threads would not be onboard. But leave this thread topic alone if you are unable to contribute towards the thread topic any further.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 14:56 #

  11. Anonymous

    @Shahzad, Usman

    Please explain the mechanics khulfa-e-rashideen appointment/selection. How awami concensus was ensured in their appointment/selection.

    SEcondly, Pakistani democracy accepts god as the ruler and owner of the state and governance(iqtadaar-e-aala) and awam selects its leaders as khalifa to god to run day to day affairs of the nation in a way that do not violate islamic guidelines.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 15:31 #

  12. shahzad1924

    janab bsobaid, ab mein kya kahoon. you heard the boss :)

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 16:33 #

  13. Anonymous

    jaoo bachaa.

    iss dafa tou bach gaey, laikin aglee dafa nahi choroo gaa..

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 16:40 #

  14. JJ Khan

    bsobaid

    regarding "Pakistani democracy accepts god as the ruler and owner of the state and governance(iqtadaar-e-aala)"

    do we accept God as ruler and owner of the state because the majority of the parliament told us so or we accept this because it is hukm sharia?

    secondly can this article be amended through constitutional process or based on stronger evidence of Qur'an and Sunnah?

    I hope this answers the most classical misconception about that article of man made constitution!

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 16:45 #

  15. Aziz kakar

    Agar pak ko democracy kalai hi azad karna ta to india per sab say bari democracy hay. lakoon logoon nay shahadat democracy kalai dee ti?????????????

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 17:28 #

  16. Anonymous

    @JJ, then lets wait for non-human made constitution.
    Imam Mehdi kaa zahoor honay wala hai.

    Qarardad-e-maqasid was formulated and presented by religious scholars who were not part of the assembly.

    Qarardad-e-maqasid is pre-amble and fundamental of constitution.

    It is fundamental of the constituion and any ammendment in it can be challenged in SC.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 17:32 #

  17. JJ Khan

    bsobaid,

    Let us stay focused and analyzed it technically

    we follow article 1 because majority in parliament decided so, majority is supreme and can change article 1.

    in Islam there is no majority/minority polling- it is haq or batil based on evidence from Qur'an and Sunnah.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 17:42 #

  18. Anonymous

    No. This is the fundaemntal of constitution and any changes in it can be appealed in court.

    Changing basic structure of constitution can be appealed in court and this is where judiciary steps in.

    Lets say for arguments sake that this can be changed if parliament passes it with 2/3rd majority and SC also approves it. (which is not possible)

    What is the alternative?
    Where will you get a divine consitution.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 18:00 #

  19. zjshami

    Bottom Line.
    A country created through a Democratic Process, by a Democratic Leader, for a Democratic Nation can flourish through Democracy like so many other Democratic Countries in the World.
    Democracy could be translated into a blessing not a threat.
    Sick of Democracy is sick of freedom.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 18:10 #

  20. Anonymous

    Please suggest alternative JJ.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 18:14 #

  21. shahzad1924

    @bsobaid - "jaoo bachaa.

    iss dafa tou bach gaey, laikin aglee dafa nahi choroo gaa.. "

    what?? start a new thread. im all in for the discussion. and by the way, qarardad-e-maqasid is not from Islam.

    as for the alternative; http://www.hizb-australia.org/hizbut-tahrir/draft-constitution

    @Aziz kakar - alaaa!

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 18:26 #

  22. shahzad1924

    @zjshami - "A country created through a Democratic Process, by a Democratic Leader, for a Democratic Nation can flourish through Democracy like so many other Democratic Countries in the World."

    yeah but hard luck bro. that isn't Pakistan.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 18:28 #

  23. Anonymous

    Shahzad uncle.

    Article 22 seems like a copy paste of Pakistani constitution. Just kidding!

    I have read a bit of the basics and the basis do not seem any different that the current Pakistani constitution except Khalifa's sole discretion to adopt a divine law.

    The elections, the iqtidaar-e-aala, the concept of khalifa being a deputy of god on earth is similar.

    I said in my earlier posts, if it is about labels, then re-label it. Call wazeer-e-azam ameerulmomineen.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 18:36 #

  24. netengr

    KhilafaH real meaning is Hizbul Tehreer in power

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 18:43 #

  25. usman1423

    Article 22

    The ruling system is founded upon four principles. They are:

    1. Sovereignty belongs to the divine law (shar’a) and not to the people;

    2. Authority belongs to the people, i.e., the Ummah;

    3. The appointment of one Khaleefah into office is an obligation upon all Muslims;

    4. Only the Khaleefah has the right to adopt the AHkam Shari’ah and thus he passes the constitution and the various canons.

    i cant understand how it is like the constituation of pakistan. have u realy read it?

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 18:58 #

  26. zjshami

    For how long Khalifa will stay at his position?
    Two years, Four years, Ten years or life long?
    How Khalifa would be removed from the office?

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 19:26 #

  27. Anonymous

    It is "crying for moon". May be "crying for moon for ever".

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 19:39 #

  28. Aimal Khan

    Hizb-ut-Tahrir is worse than Altaf bhai. At least people vote for Altaf bhai's MQM while he is in UK. The Champions of Khilafa, i.e., HT, wants to bring about revolution in the muslim world but they cannot afford to give up their lavish life in the west and move back to their respective homeland like Pakistan, India, Bangladesh etc.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 19:41 #

  29. Anonymous

    Yeh dunya aik Drama Stage hai. Tamam loag iss drama kay kirdar hein. Jab tak zindagi baqi hai, drama artist apna kirdar ada kartay raheen ****. Kutchh batour Hero kay, Kutch patour villain kay, baqi batour Extras kay jo jiss thali mein khatay hein, ussi thali mein surakh kartay hein .

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 19:50 #

  30. Anonymous

    1. Sovereignty belongs to the divine law (shar’a) and not to the people;

    2. Authority belongs to the people, i.e., the Ummah;

    This is not from Pakistani constitution???
    Please read it again and replace sharia with Allah.

    Posted 3 years ago on 02 Oct 2009 20:17 #

  31. JJ Khan

    Regarding question:

    For how long Khalifa will stay at his position?
    Two years, Four years, Ten years or life long?
    How Khalifa would be removed from the office?

    Appointment and Impeachment processes are specified in the constitution. If a ruler is good then why for 4 years? And if a ruler is bad why continue for 4 years?

    Regarding question:

    1. Sovereignty belongs to the divine law (shar’a) and not to the people;

    This is not from Pakistani constitution???

    First I am glad that fellow members tried to understand this model. No authority belonging to people and sharia are two different realities. When people have authority you have something like you have currently. For example in case of authority to sharia if Qur'an orders to forbid/ban interest it will be done so without polling/voting on a bill, while currently a bill can not be made a law because it is order from sharia. People have the authority to make or not make that a law.

    So there is fundamental difference in authority belonging to people and authority belonging to sharia.

    Posted 3 years ago on 03 Oct 2009 3:15 #

  32. shahzad1924

    @Aimal khan -

    @bsobaid - i remember dissecting a the secular constitution of Pakistan in one thread. if you want, we can do the discussion again?

    Posted 3 years ago on 03 Oct 2009 4:28 #

  33. Aimal Khan

    And I can post tons of links for much larger public rallies of Political parties (including religious parties like JI/JUI/JUP/ST etc) in Pakistan and elsewhere in the muslim world where people believe in democratic process and vote for their leaders (religious or secular).

    Besides, more people were killed, wounded and arrested in the Lawyers movement in Pakistan, which was a secular movement.

    My advise to you sir is that Khilafa is a lost cause whether it was in 1922 or 2009. But good luck trying to implement it.

    Posted 3 years ago on 03 Oct 2009 12:25 #

  34. JJ Khan

    But also know that people believe that democracy is part of Islam. They only rally for Islam without knowing that this is a deception.

    Posted 3 years ago on 03 Oct 2009 12:36 #

  35. hariskhan

    Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @Aimal Khan: Khilafah is a lost cause? Does that mean, you don't believe in the hadees from Muhammad (SAW), which states that Khilafah will be re-established near the end of the world and it will remain forever, after that ?

    When Mahdi (RahemULLAH-alaih) surfaces, Khilafah system will ALREADY have been established by Muslims, on Muslim land.

    He will be appointed as the next Khalifah in that system.

    Have you forgotten or not read the Hadees in this matter ?

    Posted 3 years ago on 03 Oct 2009 18:32 #

  36. hariskhan

    Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @zjshami: I tell you again and again, to READ about your own people. But far be it from you to READ. You want easy pickings :@

    If you would have READ about;

    - Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA, RAA)

    - Hazrat Umar (RA, RAA)

    - Hazrat Usman (RA, RAA)

    - Hazrat Ali (RA, RAA)

    you would have known the words uttered by Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA, RAA) when he was being appointed Khalifah of Muslims after Muhammad (SAW)'s death.

    He said, 'my interpretation of Hazrat Abu Bakar's (RA, RAA) words';

    'Follow me, until I take you on the path of Quran-o-Hadees. Correct me when I loose the path of Quran-o-Hadees'

    Perhaps you don't believe in the words of Muhammad (SAW), in which he said;

    The best of the eras' against which you should compare EVERY affair is from four eras';

    1) My [ Muhammad (SAW)'s ] era
    2) Sahaaba-e-Karaam's era
    3) TAA-be-EEN's era
    4) Tabe-TAA-be-EEN's era

    But, as I notice from your repeated statements, FAR be it from you to even notice Muhammad (SAW)'s words, much less research on them, READ them, know them, act on them, live them.

    Posted 3 years ago on 03 Oct 2009 18:36 #

  37. sasherwani

    This 'mostly' Jaahil qaum doesnt deserve democracy.

    Cant wait till the army takes over. Laaton kay bhoot baaton say nahin maantay.

    Posted 3 years ago on 04 Oct 2009 8:56 #

  38. Anonymous

    Yes, 'Laaton kay bhoot baaton say nahin maantay'. Actions in northern areas are typical proof of that.

    Democracy is the gurantee for the uplift of common man in Pakistan.

    Posted 3 years ago on 04 Oct 2009 9:05 #

  39. shahzad1924

    @Aimal Khan - "And I can post tons of links for much larger public rallies of Political parties (including religious parties like JI/JUI/JUP/ST etc) in Pakistan and elsewhere in the muslim world where people believe in democratic process and vote for their leaders (religious or secular)."

    i didn't know that this was a "my horse is bigger than yours" game.

    @all others - why didn't you guys tell me that there was a new AsifK on the forum :)

    Posted 3 years ago on 04 Oct 2009 9:34 #

  40. shahzad1924

    bebus - "Democracy is the gurantee for the uplift of common man in Pakistan."

    dream on!

    Posted 3 years ago on 04 Oct 2009 9:35 #

  41. usman1423

    "This 'mostly' Jaahil qaum doesnt deserve democracy."

    Reality is that the most Jaahil Qaums have demecracy.

    Posted 3 years ago on 04 Oct 2009 9:51 #

  42. Anonymous

    shehzad1924

    Democracy in Pakiatan is a reality and will Insha-Allah flourish. However, Khilafat is a adream, which you see every night.

    Posted 3 years ago on 04 Oct 2009 10:08 #

  43. JJ Khan

    If one considers believing in Qur'an and Hadith a dream, then he is a fool. More foolish if he says this after calling himself a Muslim.

    Posted 3 years ago on 04 Oct 2009 10:30 #

  44. shahzad1924

    you are the first person who says that democracy in Pakistan is a reality. so, you think 58-2B is democratic? and Pakistan has true democracy?

    khilafah is not a dream. khilafah is a promise from Allah (SWT). the creator who created you. the creator who, if he wills, lets you breathe your next breath

    Posted 3 years ago on 04 Oct 2009 10:30 #

  45. Anonymous

    JJ Khan

    Therefore, all the Muslims belonging to Religious political parties in Pakistan are fools, according to your definition. If they are not fools then they must be munafiq as such.

    Quran and Hadis do not forbid democracy.

    Posted 3 years ago on 04 Oct 2009 10:57 #

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