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Isfandyar Pataudi tipped as next ISI chief (?)

(55 posts)
  1. Indian papers are reporting this...Interestingly I went to school with this fella -- he was one year my senior and we were in the same boarding house. I really haven't seen him since then. Interestingly, he and another of his class fellows joined the army after school. The other was named Zahid something and he died in Zia's plane crash....

    (We always used to say he would sure make a general one day. Guess he did ... )

    So is he our guy or theirs ??????
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :)
    Pataudi's first cousin tipped as next ISI chief
    NEW DELHI: With Pakistan's military-intelligence complex reeling from the embarrassment Americans inflicted when they took out Osama bin Laden in the garrison town of Abbottabad, speculation is rife that ISI chief Ahmed Shuja Pasha may have to step down.

    Pasha, who is in the direct line of criticism for the failure to detect the presence of bin Laden and the American operation, is already on an extension and the estimate here is that Pakistan army chief General Ashfaq Kayani may have to sacrifice him to appease the popular anger.

    Front runners among those tipped to take over from Pasha is Major General Isfandiyar Ali Pataudi, first cousin of cricketing legend, former India skipper Mansur Ali Khan Pataudi, and an uncle to film stars, Saif and Soha.

    Isfandiyar's father, Major General Nawabzada Mohammad Ali Pataudi, was the younger brother of Mansur Ali Khan's father Iftikhar Ali Khan. Major General Nawabzada Mohammad preferred to opt for the Pakistan army at the time of partition, while his elder brother stayed back to pursue a diplomatic career.

    Sources here said Maj Gen Isfandiyar Ali Pataudi, who was appointed a deputy director-general of ISI a few weeks ago, stands a good chance if a major churning happens at the higher echelons of the Pakistan army. His liberal moorings and aristocratic background may work to his advantage at a time when Rawalpindi is required to allay US's fears of a fundamentalist takeover of the intelligence agency. An armoured corps officer, General Isfandiyar has another India connection: he was a classmate of the chief of the Indian Army, General V K Singh, at the Army War College in the US a few years ago.

    Isfandiyar Pataudi was among the first officers sent by the Pakistan army to US military institutions after the restoration of bilateral military ties that had soured after the 1998 nuclear tests and 1999 military coup. Indian military had then read the selection of the first batch of officers including Pataudi for American courses as a deliberate Pak strategy to project a liberal face.

    But now the liberal face happens to be at the senior level of a notoriously secretive ISI that is dominated by sympathizers of al-Qaida and handles many terror groups. And he is on the brink of emerging as possible DG of the all powerful intelligence agency. All his royal ancestry and liberal values may not be enough to reign in the intelligence organization, which is rated a semi-criminal enterprise by many Indian spies and rated among the world's best by many others.

    General Isfandiyar is an accomplished polo player, and is the chairman of the Pakistan Polo Association.

    Incidentally, Mansur Ali Khan's father, Iftikhar Ali Khan, captained the Indian cricket team like his son. In fact, he played for England as well, thus earning the unique distinction of turning out for two countries.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 10:32 #
  2. Interesting family. Dad was a Major Gen too.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sher_Ali_Khan_(general)

    Cousin was Indian cricket team captain.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansoor_Ali_Khan_Pataudi

    Now I want to know what is the relationship with .. ahem .. Soha Ali Khan and Saba Ali Khan.

    Gee nota, your turned out to be older than I thought .. a alot older :D

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 12:08 #
  3. ajhons
    Member

    Yeah barackosama, I was amazed too.I keep calling u Nota "BHAI" Now I realized I shouldn't be ::)).

    "Mohtaram Nota Sahib", the other day Ansar Abbasi reported that US wants to get rid of Pasha and to installsome one of their "liking/Choice".I wonder if its true then this old friend of yours must be their "next our guy"

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 12:29 #
  4. SufiSoul
    Member

    This patodi will enhance nota's professionalism.And he will turn into professional intelligence writer as well.
    So must be good news for you and your professional carier.
    demand from other websites also may emerge for nota...
    :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 12:36 #
  5. scandinavian
    Member

    All these guys seems to be the left overs from the Engraiz rulers=kale Engraiz. I won't trust them unless they show some patriotism.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 12:44 #
  6. toamin
    member

    نوٹا تو انکل نکلے، ایک جرنیل کی عمر کے انکل یعنی پچاس پچپن سالہ انکل

    میں تو آپ کو بارک بھائی کی عمر کے آس پاس سمجھ رہا تھا لیکن یہ تو تقریبن بیس سال سے زائد کا فرق نکلا

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 12:51 #
  7. SufiSoul
    Member

    نوٹا تو انکل نکلے، ایک جرنیل کی عمر کے انکل یعنی پچاس پچپن سالہ انکل

    //////////////////////////
    Professional Uncle...............:P

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 12:59 #
  8. OMG u r this old :|...and i always thought he must be some teenage college/uni going usual aggressive student who gets furious in a sec if doesnt like any comment or anyone....:s

    Mr nota with due respect(plz dont get angry at me) since ur of most of us member's uncle's and grandpa's age so ur supposed to be a fatherly figure here advising and explaining us juniors politely and patiently rather than scolding and taunting us harshly :(

    Itney barey hokey bachun ki tara lertey retey hain...che che :D....

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 13:15 #
  9. aftab arif
    Member

    Another face change and means didly squat at the ground level. Just as Obama replaced Bush and Zardari replaced Mush, things are going downhill for Pakistan who ever comes, unless "someone" like Imran replaces the current rotten ruling class.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 13:55 #
  10. runaway
    Member

    removing pasha and even kiyani and putting the next in line wont make a difference.

    it was same when mush left and kiyani came. everyone started praising kiyani and presenting him as the honest, momin, mujahid, gazi etc etc...

    we as a nation have to make a choice : do we keep waisting money on defense ( which does not protect us ) or we invest in our country and future. education healthcare and infrastructure and energy.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 14:03 #
  11. SufiSoul
    Member

    Itney barey hokey bachun ki tara lertey retey hain...che che :D....

    /////////////////////////////
    kuch na samjhy khuda kary koi......

    :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 14:04 #
  12. toamin
    member

    حالیہ واقعہ سے کیانی و پاشا کا بھانڈا پھوٹ گیا، تین چار دن تک ان کی زبان نہیں ہلی، جیٹ یا توپ خاک ہلانی تھی

    یہ دونوں میر جعفر ہیں، اور امریکیوں کی مرضی و سفارش سے آئے ہیں

    جرنل اشفاق توسیع پرویز خصی کیانی کا کورٹ مارشل ہونا چاہیے

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 14:24 #
  13. نوٹا چا چا جی آداب

    لگتا ہے کیہہ جوش جذبات میں چچا نوٹا اپنی بالی عمریا کا بھانڈا پھوڑ بیٹھے ہیں اور اب جرنیلوں کی طرح ہکا بکا بیٹھے ہیں کیہہ کیا کریں

    اور جس طرح ہمارے جرنیلوں کو تین دن بعد جواب دینے کیلئے کچھ ہوش آیا تھا تو اس لئے ہمیں چچا نوٹا کو کم از کم ٢٤ گھنٹے تو دینا ہی پڑیں گیں ، اس صورتحال سے نکلنے کیلئے

    ہی ہی ہی ہی ہی

    چلیں کوئی بات نہیں چچا نوٹا جی ، اس عمر میں اکثر نسیان کا مرض لاحق ہو جاتا ہے تو اسلئے فکر ناٹ

    :)

    :)

    :)

    FJ

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 14:45 #
  14. bsobaid
    Member

    bhaiyoo, nota sahab pay hath holaa rakhein. We all can learn something from his experience minus personal attacks.

    I dont think this Patudi's family background will make or break his chances.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 15:12 #
  15. Dusky
    Member

    Interestingly Mr. Isfandyar Pataudi happen to be first cousin of Shahryar Mohammad Khan (Former ambassador and foreign secretary of Pakistan) as well.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 15:22 #
  16. Agreed with bsobaid:
    http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/isfandyar-pataudi-tipped-as-next-isi-chief#post-237764

    nota is one of the best on this forum. We all can learn a lot from his positive contribution for pkpdiscuss minus personal attacks.

    But then I have also observed nota is quite senstive to fabrication, bias and spin applied for the sole purpose to undermine facts/ground realities. Generally he is neutral (not a blind follower of some party/cult)on all issues being discussed.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 15:43 #
  17. SufiSoul
    Member

    positive contribution for pkpdiscuss minus personal attacks.
    //////////////////////////////////
    AGREED!This is the role like MUSALLAT SHAH, means insisting own opinion at any cost upon others which should be avoided..

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 15:52 #
  18. I value your contribution too. No question at all and this is true for our valued honorary members who alltogether, by their own unique ways and style have managed to keep this forum at an elevated level. Appreciated and thanks to all of you.

    Being impartial pls consider and acknowledge his contributions as well.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 15:57 #
  19. @S.E.Mirza/SufiSoul

    I can see above contributors are offering a truce to nota due to his old age. Most of the time it is nota himself who starts personal attacks, shows disrespect and uses bad language on this forum; he writes dissenting comments and disagrees with me most of the time by using personal attacks and inappropriate language. Everyone on this site is entitled to express his/her views but nota always attack member's views using foul language.

    I expect and look forward from everyone on this site to respect each other's views, display tolerance and maintain a good atmosphere of positive discussion.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 16:13 #
  20. Anwer Kamal
    Member

    Come back on the thread.
    This is is very sad if Pasha becomes a target.
    He is the one of most honest ,noble and loyal to the country general. We make him target but in case of Osama our policy is always foolish. OBL was a sick , retired old man hiding in our country much before than taking charge by Pasha.
    Air defense of the country is too not responsibility of Pasha.
    If we could change it is necessary to change all on the top and their 'puppets'.
    More necessary is change of policy and reforms.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 16:31 #
  21. gv
    Member

    how amusing.. i know the good general and his family rather well...

    he is around 51-52 so that would make the very effervescent and eternally youthful nota 50-51

    i personally think you would have made a better ISI head than IP. Much more of the bloody minded investigative instinct in you i feel......although i do think its a bit churlish of you to question his loyalty due the fact he has a high profile relative the other side of the border.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 16:34 #
  22. gv
    Member

    as far as the resignations go.. pasha and malik should resign due to the nature of their posts which makes them directly responsible for the country's intelligence and security.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 16:35 #
  23. @Sweettruth

    I expect and look forward from everyone on this site to respect each other's views, display tolerance and maintain a good atmosphere of positive discussion.

    Thats the spirit brother. I really do appreciate your thoughts.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 16:39 #
  24. @S.E.Mirza

    It is okay.

    I always play my part in the positive direction to maintain good level of discussion on PkPolitics.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 16:44 #
  25. bsobaid
    Member

    Surely, the matters are serious between Pindi and White house, yes, the matter is outside of Pentagon's hands now.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/world/asia/10pakistan.html?ref=world

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/10/world/asia/10intel.html?ref=world

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 17:06 #
  26. Dusky
    Member

    US was ready for a confrontation in case US team had to fight their way back from Pakistan.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13343497

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 18:55 #
  27. oneUp
    Member

    liberal? aristocrat? Don't want remnants of angrez in power. I hope this news ain't true.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 19:38 #
  28. :-P to all...Hey I am not 50 yet but I still feel like I am 16 :)

    Sorry had to spend the day at a funeral so couldn't reply earlier. Yes I do get frustrated when my nephews try to teach their uncle how to fvck and are convinced they know more about it (without realizing I've been doing it since before the sperm met the egg that became them) :)

    Getting back to the subject, like I said, I haven't seen the fella since 1979 (i.e. before he joined the army) so he is hardly a friend. Even in school, he was a senior (even if by one year) and the school culture was you did not mix with the juniors so there was no 'friendship' thingy even then (We addressed our seniors as "Sir").

    BTW: I did manage to have a talk with an active officer at the funeral and asked him about this story. He said he doubted it because IP still has over a year of courses left to complete before he gets to that rank to be selected for the position. But then I know he could always get an early promotion ;-)

    I also talked to him about how the young officers saw this whole Osama affair (I did let him know how I, the ordinary citizen, felt about it without mincing any words). He told me the moral was really down and the officers were very angry. Said they saw it as the second most humiliating experience for any armed forces since the laying of arms in Dhaka. Tells me when the corp commander came back from the Corps Commander meeting with Kiyani and gave them the official briefing ("Our official position is we do not know!" and that "it was an intelligence failure, the Americans were supposed to tell us but didn't, etc.") three or four officers stood up and truly let the Corp Commander have it, something that has never happened before. His own direct boss, a Brigadier demanded that "both Kiyani and Pasha should resign and in case they don't have the moral courage to do so, then the corps commanders ought to resign instead!" Now he says this is unheard of. Officers are demanding change and when the Corp Commander talked about weak political leadership, someone called him on it and said something like "Army is no better and they should fix their house first". He said we feel lost because we used to have faith in what our brass told us and now we don't have that any more and don't know who to believe for our bosses have turned as bad as the politicians (well you and I already knew that ;-)).

    He told me Kiyani is going around the country trying to explain it away, "trying to build morale" and is going to be speaking to the Lahore garrison tomorrow and let's see what he has to say. He said the officers are demanding change and the same old will not work any more.
    (The fella was visibly upset through this whole talk. Think this is the general feeling over there? I certainly think so.)

    Interesting, eh? BTW: He has served in Siachen, Swat, and Waziristan and tells me there is only one radar close to the western border with a range of 25km (miles? I forget) or so (and that too with the sole purpose of guarding some nuclear site), so the choppers getting is easy. It is their getting away that is hard to understand...

    P.S. I also got to chat with PPP, PML-Q, and PML-N parliamentarians but I am afraid nothing worth talking about. Same old cr@p...

    @Dusky
    "US was ready for a confrontation in case US team had to fight their way back from Pakistan."
    Well if true, they over-estimated our forces once again.

    @gv
    "although i do think its a bit churlish of you to question his loyalty due the fact he has a high profile relative the other side of the border"
    That was just for kicks, I confess :) Just brought to mind the Corp Commanders meeting pic I had posted earlier and seeing the real Bollywood connection here...well I couldn't help myself :)

    Last but not least:
    I am old enough to have lost my inhibitions regarding four-letter words (not that I ever had them) and my patience for stupidity...

    (had a long day and another long day awaits, so good night and hope to see you tomorrow of the day after that)

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 20:37 #
  29. bsobaid
    Member

    I did'nt like junior officers complaining like that. This is not a good sign. I expect soldiers to follow the discipline.

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 20:51 #
  30. This is prolly pre-planned .. an ISI general who has family on both side of the border would probably be an ambassador of peace than a spy. India would probably welcome the move.

    But isn't Major Gen. a lower rank for DG ISI post or would he be promoted first?

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 20:54 #
  31. Anwer Kamal
    Member

    This could be another success of USA.
    They were not happy with Pasha and it was discussed in many thread here.
    I remember I have posted an article of 'Dawn' in some threads on this issue.
    There is some latest on the issue of Osama.
    It is a new development and looks me related.
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Pakistan-grants-US-access-to-Osama-bin-Laden-widows-Reports/articleshow/8214973.cms?intenttarget=no

    Posted 1 year ago on 10 May 2011 23:44 #
  32. @BO
    "But isn't Major Gen. a lower rank for DG ISI post or would he be promoted first?"

    Exactly -- and was pointed out above ("He said he doubted it because IP still has over a year of courses left to complete before he gets to that rank to be selected for the position.")

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 4:09 #
  33. sipahi
    Member

    @nota
    "Said they saw it as the second most humiliating experience for any armed forces since the laying of arms in Dhaka."

    I don't think most of army officers have any ability to feel humiliation. Since as part of their training, they are made to lose all sense of shame. All they do is to follow the orders, right or wrong, of their superiors. If there was any sense of humiliation, Pakistan would not have suffered through so many military rules. These officers would have resigned rather than following unconstitutional orders.

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 4:41 #
  34. Pak Truth
    Member

    its a stupid effort to create rift in ISI

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 5:19 #
  35. @sipahi
    "If there was any sense of humiliation, Pakistan would not have suffered through so many military rules. These officers would have resigned rather than following unconstitutional orders. "
    Fully agree! What is even more pathetic is seeing Kiyani on this whirlwind tour of the garrisons to "boost morale" through his bullsh!t (putting blame of CIA for not telling them). Now that certainly ought to kill any morale left. And if there truly was a true soldier in those ranks, he'd shoot the b@stard dead (now that would surely be a real moral builder :))

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 6:54 #
  36. ajhons
    Member

    Nota Sahib
    The inside story by that active officer friend you wrote above, don't you see it as dangerous situation, sort of uprising, definitly a good news for India.The rift growing within the ranks may lead to a chaos which may led to another marshal law.Because the frustarion in the lower ranks is mounting day by day and any adventure group can exploite the situation against the current leadership of both armed forces and civil administration.And I fear people are mentally prepared for another "meray aziz humwatnoon"

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 7:32 #
  37. ajhons
    Member

    Despite whatever army has done over the years, we are left with no choice but to depend on them when it comes to external security.Even from very early age we heard that promotions after such and such rank get clearance from USA.This is the level of trust we have for our army, for whome I spend a good of my salary to feed and fight.
    But what options Im left with.

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 7:38 #
  38. "don't you see it as dangerous situation, sort of uprising, definitly a good news for India"
    No I don't. Any action by Indis would unite like nothing else so I don't see it as a 'bad' thing. And I don't see India as our biggest enemy right now (that slot is occupied by the enemy within ;-) )

    "The rift growing within the ranks may lead to a chaos which may led to another marshal law"

    Well, so be it, if it rids us of the current lot (both political and military rudderlessship).

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 7:41 #
  39. changing ISI chief wont help.
    as ISI and CIA has a clash now.
    replacing Shujaa Pasha with some xyz wont help.
    its the institution to institution fight.
    individuals doesn't matter much.

    no2. i request all of you to not to get personal with each other.

    Nota ,
    you are the respectable member of the forum.
    we always love to read your posts and always gets something new as a food for thought.

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 7:53 #
  40. SufiSoul
    Member

    Sorry had to spend the day at a funeral so couldn't reply earlier. Yes I do get frustrated when my nephews try to teach their uncle how to fvck and are convinced they know more about it (without realizing I've been doing it since before the sperm met the egg that became them) :)

    ////////////////////////////////////////////////
    All i can say is the INFREORITY COMPLEX behind such intentions.
    With such an attitude opinion of the poster attract no more attention and many of the others ignore and cannot buy the thoughts even if something very important/beneficial are their.
    Another abnormal behaviour from the poster is he is not satisfied with any of the THOUGHT existing in Pakistan.This is against the natural LAW to think that NATURE created GARBAGES and nothing beneficial...

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 9:56 #
  41. toamin
    member

    اس کا مطلب ہے کہ پتودی پچاس سال کا ہے اور ان کا جونئیر انچاس سال کا، یاروں نصف سنچری قریب ہے، داد دینی ہے

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 13:34 #
  42. @SufiSoul
    Mujhay pata hai aap ki kiyoN jali hui hay. Aap to Japan ki barbadi per bhi khush honay walay "Musalman" haiN.

    BTW: I am sure you are the kind of fella who ran to his dad and said "Daddy, I bet you didn't know how babies are made!" And I bet you still think you know more about it than the "old fool" :-P

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 15:33 #
  43. Pak Truth
    Member

    @Beenai
    Dear ur right. CIA and ISI are having clashes. CIA and her alies agencies are after ISI, since its the only agency that is hurdle in achieving their objectives. Changing Pasha or Kayani means to dent the organization and hitting Pakistan centre of gravity.

    Posted 1 year ago on 11 May 2011 15:42 #
  44. SufiSoul
    Member

    nota G,
    Different state of minds are something which i am aware of a little bit.
    I dont keep old words in my mind abt anyone.
    The arguments you are giving may be statisfied you but not many others.
    Just set some targets abt yourself and try to get rid of some state of mind.
    After some more years things will get impossible to change and some labels may get stcuk with you.
    STRONG FEELINGS(positive or negative) always hurts and nature always have a strong reaction towards strong feelings.So everything should be underlimits no matter important it is for you....

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 May 2011 0:36 #
  45. @SS
    "STRONG FEELINGS(positive or negative) always hurts and nature always have a strong reaction towards strong feelings.So everything should be underlimits no matter important it is for you.... "

    Strong feelings is what I have, agreed. And nature be d@mned.

    "The arguments you are giving may be statisfied you but not many others."
    Let me elaborate my earlier comment that you seem to be misinterpreting a bit. I will continue to insist a baby is made when to people of opposite sex do the wild thing and you can continue to insist some stork delivers them. Not i might not satisfy you with my arguments but the fact remains I am right on that and will continue to insist that's how it works. Just because you don't 'buy' it does not change the fact. I will continue to insist on it. (You seem to have taken that bit earlier literally assuming I was talking sexual prowess or something. I was not).

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 May 2011 2:26 #
  46. @Pak Truth
    "Changing Pasha or Kayani means to dent the organization and hitting Pakistan centre of gravity. "
    Quite the opposite. Having Kiyani and pasha has dented the and hit Pakistan's centre of gravity (and in a bigger way) than CIA could ever have...

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 May 2011 2:28 #
  47. toamin
    member

    An interesting read!

    US broke deal with Osama hit

    By Syed Saleem Shahzad

    ISLAMABAD - Pakistan's military and intelligence community was fully aware of and lent assistance to the United States mission to get a high-value target in Abbottabad on May 2. What it did not know was that it was Osama bin Laden who was in the crosshairs of US Special Forces, and what angered the top brass even more was that Washington - in clear breach of an understanding - claimed sole ownership of the operation.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/ME12Df02.html

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 May 2011 5:07 #
  48. zenith
    Member

    @ nota

    Any General would have to toe the US line. It does not matter who comes to power. However, if the army really decides to come out of the US camp ( which seems unlikely, there is always a chance.

    A surprise for me is that nota has a had long life and I thought he was just a university student. :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 May 2011 5:11 #
  49. "What it did not know was that it was Osama bin Laden who was in the crosshairs of US Special Forces, and what angered the top brass even more was that Washington - in clear breach of an understanding - claimed sole ownership of the operation. "

    At least it should have known that in fact THEE WAS NO Osama bin Ladin. In taking all the blame and accepting their incompetence, they are still serving their masters, confirming indirectly the LIE that "Osama got killed on May 2, 2011 in Abbotabad". He did not. He's been dead a long time :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 May 2011 6:10 #
  50. SufiSoul
    Member

    nota,
    I should leave some discussion regarding,till some next time.
    But below, i want it to be clear to you.
    1.Nature means GOD
    2.Shining gift never presented in dirty Packing
    3.Sex is strange way of, when u wanna explain something over public forums.Choice should have a positive variety.

    Posted 1 year ago on 12 May 2011 7:02 #

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