Isnt pakistan a true democracy? « PKPolitics Discuss

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Isnt pakistan a true democracy?

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Revivalist
member

Those who stands for democracy/Elitocracy are asked to enlighten us weather the current system implemented in Pakistan is democracy or not? If it is not, why? If it is then what are they waiting for to get rid of it and replace it with an alternative ruling system, khilafah!!!!

We are witnessing sever corruption on all levels, PIA is practically bankrupt, Pakistan steel mill is suffering from sever corruption, Electricity shortage that has effected severely the industry of Pakistan, POOR governance, CURROPT RULING Class, CORRUPT system that gives indemnity to the ruling class constitutionally and is the core reason for the missries that has been inflicted upon the people of pakistan etc etc etc……

Please keep your post precise and to the point…

Regards

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 7:29 #
shahzad1924
member

it sure looks like a true democracy. zina bil raza is not a crime in Pakistan, so yes it is a democracy.

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 8:08 #
skyfacts
Blocked

And it will die with dying US.......For sure...KHILAFAT IS THE ONLY CHOICE REMAINS......

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 8:26 #
Revivalist
member

You are very right, but I would like to have opinions of the excellencies that stands for democracy and considers it be the solution for Pakistan’s problems!!!!!!

Regards

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 9:24 #
Revivalist
member

waiting for the defender of Elitocracy!!!!

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 11:03 #
AsifK
Members

@Revivalist,

Current system in pakistan is not democracy but hypocracy. Its just puppit show being run by ARMY like we had 11 years era from 1988-99.

The key example is current case of judges in SC where our honourable judges summoned Pervaiz Musharaf as person whereas it should be the office of Chief of Army Staff who issued the orders of Nov , 2007.

Another example is the long march of March 2009 which intended a sit on around parliament / presidency . Same question , who issued the order of Nov , 2007--- President --No , Parliament --- No ---. It was chieif of Army staff.

@shahzad1924
Would you please enlighten how Zina Bil Raza is related to democracy ? I will be obliged.

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 11:14 #
Revivalist
member

ASKIF,

Dear, technically what is missing in the current setup of Pakistan due to which it does not qualify to be called as democracy??? You have raised points that support my argument. As you rightly said that ‘presently what we are witnessing is hypocrisy' but in fact democracy is hypocrisy/Elitocracy, that begets such corrupt people we are witnessing from the day of independence!!! Moreover there are much more surprising things in the constitution of Pakistan i.e. president, PM, CM and Governors enjoy immunities according to the law in case they do any crime. President has to right to forgive a convicted murderer without the consent of the victim’s family. Due to lenient mechanism of accountability the government can do anything under the label of NATIONAL INTEREST and you can not account them for this. If with the consent of the government the enemy breach the sovereignty of the country and kill hundreds of innocent people its not a crime etc etc….

Regards

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 11:29 #
AsifK
Members

@Revivalist

Don't twist my arguments. I didn't say that democracy is hypocracy. I said that pakistan is having a hyprocarcy not democracy becaz

a) the powers are not transfered to masses/representatives of masses.
b) The process of elections is not transperent rather it is conducted in the verandahs of GHQ.

Don't mix multiple topics. If you want to crticize democracy that another. If u want to criticize pakistani system, thats another thing. So , be clear what u want to do.

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 11:35 #
Revivalist
member

ASIKF
I am not twisting your argument and I don’t need to, if you see I have put your words in comas… a)These are and will always remain mere excuses with the democrats, when the elected parliamentarians are saying that Army is out of politics and when General Kiyani said that I don’t interfere in politics, then this arguments of yours is nullified. B) Dear, if you open your eyes and see around you only then you would realize that all the major political parties accepted the results of the previous elections i.e. PPP, PMLN, ANP, JUI etc and that’s is why we have a functional parliament going on in Pakistan. So your 2nd argument is again nullified. What you need to accept is that Democracy can not function in Pakistan because it contradicts the basic fundamentals of Islam and FYI democracy stands of two major principles; 1- sovereignty belongs to the parliament 2- Majority is authority, now you tell me being a Muslim can you reconcile democracy with Islam.
My primary argument and question is that what presently we have is Pakistan is democracy or not? If no, why? We have functional National Assumbly, we have 4 functional provincial assumlies, we have Supreemcourt accepting it as democracy etc, so what else is required????

Regards

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 11:49 #
AsifK
Members

@Revivalist

You are very quick to nullfy my arguments but i would give u examples of recent history.

On point A

a- Mirza Aslam Beg , also calimed to be champ of democracy and was awarded 'Tamgah e Jamoohriat '. Did he stop interfering with government or was power transfered to reps of people. No sir, same thing now. When it will happen , it will be realized every where in the world.

b- If Mr.Kiyani doesn't interfere with govt. affairs why he was a party in restoration of CJ in march?

On Point B
U said
" all the major political parties accepted the results of the previous elections i.e. PPP, PMLN, ANP, JUI etc and that’s is why we have a functional parliament going on in Pakistan
"

In 1988 , all parties including all above u mentioned accepted the results . Wasn't it rigged by ARMY ? who created IJI to stop PPP winning absolute majority ?

Accepting of results is not an argument that election was fair.

Sir, democracy has some basic pre-requisites of which fair election is one part.
Transfer of powers to representatives of people is other part.

By having NA or four PA's or SC recognizing it as democracy , it doesn't mean we have demcoracy. Its the same SC who couldn't call the offender in just concluded judges case.

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 12:01 #
Revivalist
member

ASIFK
Dear technically i want to know what is missing? what you are talking about is abstract and could never be varified!!!! You will always say that Army has a role in politics and can interfare anytime, thats why it is not democracy!!! Tell me is Turkey a democratic country or not???

Regards

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 12:16 #
AsifK
Members

Dear Revivalist,

U nullified my 2 arguments without an argument and i gave u concrete example from current history of pakistan which are quite well established facts but if u don't want' to accept obviously i can't force u.

In my humble oponion , turkey is not a well established democracy.

Gentleman, democracy is a process which takes its roots over the period of time with hit and trial by the "masses" .

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 12:20 #
Revivalist
member

ASIFK

The points I have raised are not abstract rather I have said that we have President H.E Zardari who got elected by the parliament, we have elected PM, we Have functional judiciary, we have functional provincial assemblies, we Have CMs etc all these could be seen and observed. The army is saying that it won’t interfere in politics; we have opposition in the form of PMLN.... So looking at all these facts one can say that the system implemented in Pakistan is democracy. Now that the president is corrupt and so is the PM and his team, and they enjoy immunities from the law, and what ever they decide by having a simple majority becomes the law, is what democracy is all about....
BTW tell me about a country you think is a model democracy which Pakistan should imitate? And do you think that by imitating that democracy Pakistan will get itself out from the problem?

Regards

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 14:19 #
AsifK
Members

Revivalist

Bahi , yah hii tu mein aap ko bata raha hoon that masses haven't got the power. U r saying that army is saying that its not interfering then what the hell Gen.Kiyani was doing on 16th of mar, 2009 ?

How u say that army is not interfering ?

And if for the argument sake i say that ook pakistan has got democracy so since when ? by your description i assume that democracy consists of elected assemblies , elected president and independent judiciary . If u look at this argument , we have it only for 4 months ? Judges were restored on 16 th march 2009 -- 4 months ago.. President was elected in sep 2008. 11 months ook. Parliament came into existence 17 months ago ?

Bahi , if we go by your philosphy, it took prophet PBUH to pbulically address the masses 3 years whereas he was conveying the eternal message of GOD . Its not to comapre democarcy with God's message but point is that it takes time for anything to give fruit.

Here we have got the fundamental problem that we are yet to acheive democracy and u r asking for its fruits.

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 14:40 #
AsifK
Members

Revivalist

As far as role models are concerned , we have got India right next to us wtih same conditions , races , masses and literacy rates. Worlds' biggest democracy and quite established.

In the modern world , there are numerous examples like UK , Canada , Australia , US , France, western europe.

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 14:42 #
chechen
Member

Democracy is not for Muslims-Period. Call or change yourself to whatever and implement democracy but not as Muslims.

You should be aware of the origins of the evil word of democracy, and you should know that it is not Arabic, but Greek in origin. It is a mixture and abbreviation of two words:
Demos meaning people, and Cracy meaning judgement, authority, or legislation. That means that the literal translation of this word democracy is the people's judgement, or the people's authority or the people's legislation. This is the greatest asset of the democracy, according to its people, and because of this, they praise it and they give it a high status in societies intellect.

At the same time, it is one of the most important characters of the unbelief, the polytheism, and the falsehood which contradicts Islam. Because you know the principal reasons for which the creatures were
created, and for which the Books were revealed, and for which the Prophets were sent, you should also know that it is your obligation to declare God to be One, and to make acts of worship for Him alone, and to avoid worshipping anyone except Him. Obedience in legislation is just one of the acts of worship that must be only for Allah,
otherwise, the human will be a polytheist and will become one of the losers.

This is the truth about democracy, that it's judgement was for the people or for the majority of people (which is the greatest wish of the democrats). But nowadays, the
judgement is in the hands of the judges, or their families, or the big traders, or the rich people, who have the capital and the mass media that enable them to reach to the
parliaments (the palaces of democracy), and with their god (the king or the prince of a land) who has the authority to dissolve the parliament whenever and however he wants.
So, the democracy is on one side a polytheism and on the other side a disbelief in Allah that contradicts with monotheism, the religion of the Messengers, and Prophets, for many reasons.

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:33 #
msohail83
Member

It is oligarchy at its best.

Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 18:12 #
shahzad1924
member

AsifK, before i answer your question, would you mind telling me what you meant when you said;

"I have neither read the thread nor the comment but may i ask what authority u have got to declare anyone kafir ?

Differ with oponion not with person.

Beenai , i think u need to take notice of it as well."

when did i declare someone a kafir?

im discussing it here because that thread has been closed.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 2:37 #
AsifK
Members

shahzad1924,

my sincere apologies . l misread your post.

i apologoze again to all members as well for miscommunication at my end.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 4:35 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

Pakistan can't be called a democracy as Islam is its official religion !
In democracy all citizens of state are equal, whereas Pakistani citizens are discreminated on the basis of religion, which is negation of democratic principles.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 5:46 #
shahzad1924
member

"In democracy all citizens of state are equal"

who said that? i live in one of the developed countries of the world. here you can give $10,000 dollars to a politician as a donation and you wont need to declare it. and at the same time a small businessman would have to declare each and every penny of his earnings. if he pays even $10 to a worker without putting it on paper, he can go to jail.

so there is one law for the rich and another for the poor.

this is democracy!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 6:07 #
shahzad1924
member

@AsifK...no worries bro!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 6:10 #
Revivalist
member

Red-scorpion,

You point is right, as a country cant be Islamic and democratic at the same time, this is duplicity, and that is the reason why the people of Pakistan are made confused by putting two so called Islamic articles in the secular constitution of Pakistan, just to give an impression that it is Islamic. Besides the corrupt lot of elites ruling Pakistan since its inception are betraying people using Islam to justify their criminalities. Person like BUSSHARRAF used Sulah Hudebia to justify US bases in Pakistan and giving them support to kill our brothers and sisters in Afghanistan.

Islam and democracy are contradictory to each other and we as Muslims and citizens of Pakistan must know that. Besides we should now that we have two enemies, corrupt lot of elites known as Rulers, and the capitalist system that has been imposed upon us!!!

Regards

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 6:30 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

@shahzad1924

"so there is one law for the rich and another for the poor.

this is democracy!"

>>>>

If there are different laws for rich and poor then that can't be called democracy at all !

IMHO most of the time there are problems due to non-implementation of democratic principles. However, Pakistan is entirely a different case where by law i.e. constitution non-muslims are 2nd class citizens, that's why I don't consider Pakistan a democratic state !

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 6:30 #
shahzad1924
member

would you care to explain which "democratic principle" is not being implemented in the example that i gave? you might help the thousands of small business owners in my suburb if you could prove that this law shouldn't only be applied to politicians.

and what about Muslims being 2nd class citizens in the west. this is a reality no matter what they (west) say.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 6:45 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

@shahzad1924

"what about Muslims being 2nd class citizens in the west. this is a reality no matter what they (west) say"

>>>

In most of western democracies there's no restriction on Muslims to live according to their faith, BTW could you please let us know if there's any restriction on Muslims to contest for public office in USA, where you live.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 8:02 #
shahzad1924
member

"In most of western democracies there's no restriction on Muslims to live according to their faith"

i wasn't talking about living according to ones faith.

"BTW could you please let us know if there's any restriction on Muslims to contest for public office in USA, where you live."

first of all, i dont live in the US. secondly, are you saying that if non-Muslims are allowed to contest for public office in Pakistan, there will be true democracy in Pakistan and Pakistan will start to prosper?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 8:11 #
sasherwani
Members

Why is it assumed that if democracy isn't the solution, Khilafat is? Just wondering.

Also I dont think Pakistan is even close to true democracy.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 8:33 #
shahzad1924
member

i never said that.

and sir jee discussion start to honay dain :)

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 8:36 #
Beenai
Moderator

Pakistani democracy is just like water.
the pot u put in ,it will take place the same shape accordingly.
its a mixture of presidential system ,British laws ,American pressures ,Suadi influences and Iranian monoarchy of Shah e Iran .

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 8:38 #
shahzad1924
member

as i said before in another thread, thats a corner-stone of the secular doctrine and its called "compromise".

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 8:41 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

There is no democracy in Pakistan.

According to Wikipedia

"Democracy is a principle that the control of authority comes from public, and ruler and non-ruler are the same."

In Pakistan no law can be made that is against Quran and Sunnah. Moreover, soverignty lies with Allah.
These thisngs are negation of democracy. In democracy will of the people is supreme and soverignty also lies with the people not Allah !

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 9:09 #
shahzad1924
member

"In Pakistan no law can be made that is against Quran and Sunnah. Moreover, soverignty lies with Allah.
These thisngs are negation of democracy. In democracy will of the people is supreme and soverignty also lies with the people not Allah !"

the Americans, the flag-bearers of democracy themselves added this clause to Afghanistan and Iraq's constitutions.

this clause does not make Allah sovereign.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 9:24 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

@shahzad1924

I'm not here to defend Americans' actions !
Without running here and there you should argue in a logical manner.

If Allah is soveriegn as per 1973's constitution then how come people be soveriegn ???
How can parliament (which represents people) be supreme if it can't do legislation againt Quran and Sunnah ??

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 9:32 #
shahzad1924
member

i didnt ask you to defend america's actions. im just saying that this clause does not give sovereignty to Allah because if it would have, they wouldn't have put it in Afghanistan and Iraq's constitution.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 9:38 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

@shahzad1924

Why are you referring to Afghanistan and Iraq's constitutions ?
Understand we are discussing an issue that's related to Pakistan !!!!

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 9:48 #
shahzad1924
member

im not referring to any constitution!

i was making a point, which obviously you dont seem to understand.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 9:49 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

@shahzad1934

Why don't you simply share your point with us :)
It's really useless excercise to cite irrelevant examples !

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 10:12 #
shahzad1924
member

i shared my point two ice-ages ago.

when you said;

"In Pakistan no law can be made that is against Quran and Sunnah. Moreover, soverignty lies with Allah."

i gave the examples and said that;

"this clause does not make Allah sovereign."

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 10:14 #
AsifK
Members

Isalmic republic can still have democracy in my oponion as we have to see the perspective.

a: Allah is ultimate authority .
b: Represenative of people (Parliament) exercices the authority within the framework of quran and sunnah .
c: What is quran and sunnah? As understood and described by the majority of masses.

So, whats wrong in that. Its like that in a shia majority Iran , it would be quran and sunnah as understood by shia majoirty.

In Sunni majoirty Pakistan , it would be as understood by sunni majoirty .

And still both will be within the corner stones described by quran and sunnah.

Similary, say 100 years down the road, the majoiry of masses is convinced that quran doesn't stipulate a punishment for 'Zina Bil Raza', it can be overruled by parliament.

So , why a islamic state can't be democratic ?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 11:15 #
AsifK
Members

Just to elaborate a bit further to last point , the legal framework of country has 3 basic parts.

a) Four corners of Constitution (Basic Structure)
b) Constituial framework detailed within the four corners
c) General Legislation within the boundaries defined in the above two.

In any state , no amendments to basic structure of constituion is permitted . (There are several examples where amendments proposed , are over turned during judicial review as they were found to be contradictary to basic constitutional structure). Like an amendment to parliamentary system can't change it to presidential system as it will change the whole basic structure.

Similary, parliament can't frame any law which violates the provision of constituion and such law would be held ultravires . Famouse example of our history is ATA 1997 which was held ultrawire (certain clauses) by SC in Mehram Ali Case.

The point i m trying to emphasize is that by stating that no law can be framed in Pakistan beyound Quran and Sunnah means that parliament can't frame a law which is against the majority oponion of masses about Quran and sunnah.

AS quran and sunnah is for every person and he himself is responsible for how he interprets it .

Quran and sunnah doesn't speak for itself. My interpretation is probably entirely differnet how my honourable frined "Revivalist's" or for that matter any other member. So , how this difference is resovled is through the majority oponion.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 11:27 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

@AsifK

Please tell me what exactly you mean by the term 'democracy' ?
Kindly give me a simple and precise definition.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 11:35 #
AsifK
Members

Government of the people , by the people , for the people within the legal framework of the country.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 11:54 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

@AsifK

You've quoted a very famous definition of 'democracy' !
Now, would you pls let me know what do you mean by the 'legal framework of the country'?
Do you mean constitution ?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 11:58 #
AsifK
Members

Yes , constituion as framed by the represenatatives of masses.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 12:07 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

@AsifK

So, in a democracy will of the people/masses is Law of the Land, isn't it ?
But 1973's constitution says, there can't be any legislation against Quran and Sunnah !
Don't you think above clause negates spirit of democracy ?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 12:15 #
AsifK
Members

Sir ,
This is what i said my earlier messages . To me it means

"Quran and Sunnah as interpretted by majoirty of masses".

Again , this clause is added to the constituion by representative of masses so whats wrong in that. At the moment , its the will of masses that no legistion should be carried out beyound quran and sunnah.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 12:25 #
shikra
Blocked

Today I really miss JS who would have given a lecture to guide us on the forms of Government and the best possible method to protect and fix the Rights and Obligations of citizens in a State.
There are different systems under a constant evolutionary process such as Democracy, Monarchy, Dictatorship, Anarchism, Khilafat and Tyranny.
At the end only the fittest and the best possible system will win and prevail. All fake, failed and outdated systems will be discarded and ousted.
Right now a vast majority of the World's population feels that Democracy could well protect their Rights.
So far, theoretically, this is the best possible method of Governance is available. It could serve better

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 12:25 #
Red-Scorpion
Blocked

@AsifK

""Quran and Sunnah as interpretted by majoirty of masses". "
>>>
How would we come to know the interpretation of majority of masses ?
Don't you think Mullahs claim to represent those masses and in past they were only consulted on religious issues not the masses !!!
BTW which sect do you think has to have claim to interpret Quran & Sunnah ?

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 12:31 #
AsifK
Members

Sir,

This mullaiat is what is wrong.

Parliament is the sole representatives of masses not the mullahs. So, whatever parliament (being supreme) is the will of masses. If the parliament by majority decided something , that will become the interpretation of quran and sunnah by masses.

Posted 2 years ago on 05 Aug 2009 12:37 #