Isn't the ban of non Muslims in Mecca and Madina shows intolorence?

PKPolitics Discuss » Faith and Religion

Isn't the ban of non Muslims in Mecca and Madina shows intolorence?

(33 posts)

m_imran45
Member

These are the only holy places which can't be visited by any Islamic ideology dissenters.Doesn't this shows that there is no roam for interfaith harmony in Islam.

Posted 10 months ago on 08 Jul 2011 5:48 #
barackosama
Member

Glad to know your thoughts on intolerant Quran.

يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ إِنَّمَا ٱلْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌۭ فَلَا يَقْرَبُوا۟ ٱلْمَسْجِدَ ٱلْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةًۭ فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ ٱللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِۦٓ إِن شَآءَ ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌۭ

O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.

Posted 10 months ago on 08 Jul 2011 10:26 #
shaagird
Member

oh, polythiests!!!!!!!

@BO
atleast that prooves, Shias are not polythiests as you claimed b4 in some other thread..... nice to know :)

Posted 10 months ago on 08 Jul 2011 15:12 #
LifeH2O
Member

Are muslims allowed to visit holly places of other religions?
Does other religions also do not allow people out of their religion to visit there holy and most sacred places?

Posted 10 months ago on 08 Jul 2011 15:28 #
barackosama
Member

@shaagird

Can you link my post?

Posted 10 months ago on 08 Jul 2011 21:33 #
barackosama
Member

@LifeH2O

We don't practice our religion on principle of reciprocality with other religions.

Posted 10 months ago on 08 Jul 2011 21:37 #
LifeH2O
Member

I am asking that just for information.

Posted 10 months ago on 09 Jul 2011 9:14 #
baharbegum
Member

@Imran
The reasons for the banning the non-Muslims in Mecca were not intolerance. This would therefore not be the right example for room for interfaith harmony. One should look at myriads of cases where Muslims and non-Muslims lived in harmony under the Muslim rule. Madina itself is the first example where under the Prophet [PBUH]the first Muslim constitution was documented, Madina was recognized as an independent Muslim state and in that Muslim state lived the 3 tribes of Jews along with Muslims. There are other examples as well and if you want I can come back to it in future.

@BO

Brother you have quoted the verse totally out of context.
By the way, i dont want to dive into a sermon as there are plenty of explanations and tafaseers available on the net; However just for everyone's info, this ayah was revealed after Muslims had given NOTHING BUT TOLERANCE to the non believers; It was revealed right towards the end... almost 23 years after the first revelation. And Allah T'alla knows best.

My request to all: Please before passing a judgement on Islam and the "anomalies" in Islam, I would suggest you study the Quran and the Hadith [in arabic] first before passing a comment for which any Muslim can be held accountable on the Day of Judgement. One has to study, and i mean properly study the Quran and not just pick it up through casual pseudointellectual conversations in living rooms to be in a position to get into this discussion.

Posted 10 months ago on 10 Jul 2011 22:26 #
shafiq12
member

bahar begum

Brother you have quoted the verse totally out of context.
.

That's the problem with brothers, they quote verses out of context and then they make their own context..... Bahar begum your words reflect, you are quite knowledgeable lady as you wrote especially this comment

My request to all: Please before passing a judgement on Islam and the "anomalies" in Islam, I would suggest you study the Quran and the Hadith [in arabic] first before passing a comment for which any Muslim can be held accountable on the Day of Judgement. One has to study, and i mean properly study the Quran and not just pick it up through casual pseudointellectual conversations in living rooms to be in a position to get into this discussion.

I really appreciate your stance, your loyalty and your devotion....

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 9:14 #
barackosama
Member

@Bahar Begum

That was sarcasm that you appear to have choked on.

The command is the non-Mulims are not allowed to Masjid Al Haram. Period. Is that intolerance? beats me. The verse gives the answer إِنَّمَا ٱلْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌۭ they are unclean! You are more than welcome to tie uncleanliness of mushrikoon with whatever context. Ask me if I care. I only care they are unclean and banished from entering Al Haram. The verse was revealed after fall of Makkah. So the rule of land was Islam then meaning the previous mode of business based on peace treaties and reconciliation was null and void. Now the terms were Islam's and it had banned mushrikoon out of that mosque for ever! Later Umar RA banished the Jews out of Madina also. So now when you try to enter the places, gotta show your IDs and religious affiliation like some 40 miles ahead on the highway.

Here's Ibn Kathir on it.

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 10:56 #
barackosama
Member

@oblivion

Thanks for coming out of closet. I had mistaken you for a "brother". آپ تو اپنے ہی ظلمت خانہ دل کے مکیں نکلے

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 11:10 #
shafiq12
member

Barrackobama

I didn't post that comment in context of your post..... If i had problem with your post then i would reply to your post... why i appreciate her post because what she had written is true and it is applicable to most of people whether muslims or non - muslims........ People post verses out of context and then make their own context.....it doesn't matter whether your arrogance/pride/vanity/ego admit it or not........

I had mistaken you for a "brother".

I hadn't, because i ain't arrogant?

“Arrogance diminishes brotherhood”

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 11:23 #
shafiq12
member

آپ تو اپنے ہی ظلمت خانہ دل کے مکیں نکلے

دل بينا بھي کر خدا سے طلب
آنکھ کا نور دل کا نور نہيں

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 11:27 #
barackosama
Member

You brotherly pointed out "That's the problem with brothers".

You have no problem with my post and at the same time you appreciate the stance of Bahar Begum who actually had problem with my post. I wish I could be binary like that. It is osama btw.

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 11:30 #
shafiq12
member

bo....

"That's the problem with brothers".. It simply means majority of brothers.... Did i write "that's the problem with brother"

i had clear you, if i ever had problem with your post then i would directly reply to it....i had also clear context of my post..Now if you don't believe then believe what you want...

کيا غضب ہے کہ اس زمانے ميں
ايک بھي صاحب سرور نہيں

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 11:39 #
barackosama
Member

Should change your avatar to the cyote.

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 12:08 #
gv
Member

but i thought polytheists means those who worship multiple deities only - so shouldnt the jews be exempt from this?

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 14:53 #
barackosama
Member

Excellent point gv.

The verse specifically was revealed for the mushrikeen who used to perform pilgrimage naked. Read the second page of my attachment about Umar b. Abdul Aziz view in Xtians/Jews on the same verse. This has been the practice for 1300 years, dunno about second opinion on it.

You could also argue the context is specific to Masjid Al Haram, so An Nabawi and other sites should be relieved. But I think the general meaning has been taken for all non-Muslims on at least Al Haram and An Nabawi since the beginning times. I had an American colleague who said he had been inside Makkah. His Saudi friends took him disguised as a Saudi.

Furthermore, can the Muslims be at the West Wall? Well they sure can, those who have western passports. Dunno about Egyptians and Jordanians and Israeli Muslims. The issue there is diplomatic, not religious.

@LifeH20

Xtian and Judaism sites of highest order are within Muslim lands, Wailing Wall (East Jerusalem), Church of Holy Sepulchre (Bethlehem), Church of Nativity (East Jerusalem) and Sofia Haiga (Turkey). The Buddhists and the Hindus do not have order of their religious sites. But I think they are all visitable.

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 16:26 #
NNL
member

Gv
Jews believe Uzair to be the Son of Allaah and that is committing shirk. and we know the stance of the christians

Posted 10 months ago on 11 Jul 2011 19:04 #
gv
Member

@NNL

"Jews believe Uzair to be the Son of Allaah "

please show me some evidence for that most ludicrous statement.

@BO

"The Buddhists and the Hindus do not have order of their religious sites."

Not true - they do have a hierarchy of religious sites.

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 11:31 #
barackosama
Member

I dunno, could have. I just never heard about their Makkah, their Wall.

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 12:18 #
gv
Member

@BO

google is your friend!!! :)

ps so do sikhs have a hierarchy

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 12:53 #
barackosama
Member

Oh Sikhs, i didn't even think of them. You quoted me on Hindus and Buddhists so was thinking you had those exactly those two in mind.

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 13:02 #
gv
Member

@bo

i did have those two in mind but was just adding on the sikhs as an example i thought youd be familiar with

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 13:05 #
barackosama
Member

Varnasi in Hinduism and what is in Buddhism?

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 13:23 #
NNL
member

GV said
@NNL

"Jews believe Uzair to be the Son of Allaah "

please show me some evidence for that most ludicrous statement.

In Surah Taubah Allaah Azza wa JAl says

30. And the Jews say: "Uzayr (Ezra) is the son of Allah,'' and the Christians say: "The Messiah is the son of Allah.'' That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. May Allah fight them, how they are deluded away from the truth!) (31. They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah, and (they also took as their Lord) the Messiah, son of Maryam, while they were commanded to worship none but One God, none has the right to be worshipped but He. Praise and hallowed be He above what they associate (with Him).''

Are Allaah Azza wa Jal's Words enough for you ???

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 16:33 #
gv
Member

@NNL

Again your literalist sentiments get the better of you.

The Quran presumably refers to a hijazi sect of jews...
(according to ibn hazm - yemeni jews believed that uzayr was the son of god)

Mainstream judaism is fiercely monotheistic... any idiot who's ever met any jews can tell you that.

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 16:48 #
gv
Member

@BO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_significant_religious_sites#Buddhism

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 16:50 #
NNL
member

Ibn Kathir, Ibn Jarir and Al Qurtubi disagree with him.

Furthermore when Finhas spoke to Rasool Allaah Sallaho Alayhi wa Alaa Alayhi wa Sallam the other 3 Jews didnt stop or disagree with him.

The Presence of the Yemeni Jews in Madina or for the fact that they came and met Rasool Allaah Sallaho Alayhi wa Alaa Alayhi wa Sallam is not in my knowledge i.e I dont know.

However what I do know is that when Finhas said that How can we accept you when you dont believe Uzair to be the Son of God? None of the other Jews objected.

Oh btw you are going to believe people who have been known to killing Prophets and covering up the words of Allaah to suit their needs over what you believe to be a Literal Translation of Allaah Azza wa Jal's Word ?

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 18:21 #
barackosama
Member

The current Jewish diaspora and ordinary Rabbis do not believe in Uzair being son if you ask any. In fact they use the verse in Quran as an evidence of proving Quran to be inaccurate. However, the Jewish scholarship has written that it is possible that some Jews in Arabia might have believed. Great part of Jewsh history is lost. The modern record they have today is mostly about Sephardi and Ashkenazi. So quite possibly the customs of Iranian, Yemenite and Indian Jewry may have not been known to other Jews in the middle ages or earlier. The small population of Jews in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and India have some weird customs anyway from the mainstream.

There were plenty of Jews in Madina and there is no evidence that they objected or made an issue out of the verse as was their habit. They couldn't even deny the verse on Rajm in the Torah. In the Jewish text Ezra is somewhat supernatural figure anyway, there are stories about him.

gv,

Quran is perfect, so what's the problem? It does not say that all Jews of the world said so. Wiki puts is perfectly "The Qur'an, however, does not assert that all the Jews were unanimous in declaring Ezra as 'the son of God'. What it intends to say is that the perversion in the articles of faith of the Jews concerning Allah had degenerated to such an extent that there were some amongst them who considered Ezra as the son of God."

Now check this out:

Exodus 4:22

New International Version (©1984)
Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then you will tell him, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then tell Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son.

King James Bible
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

Of course beside Quran, the Jews also reject New Testament.

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 20:41 #
gv
Member

@bo

agree with you point entirely - this uzer/ezra argument goes to show why literalist interpretations can be harmful...

Posted 10 months ago on 12 Jul 2011 22:44 #
baharbegum
Member

@BO

Please read my post again- I said "Please before passing a judgement on Islam and the "anomalies" in Islam, study the Quran and the Hadith in arabic ". You really think copying and pasting a translation that proves your point will make you shine like some new-age scholar or intellectual giant? Or do you like to disagree with people just for the sake of disagreeing.... cos it strokes your ego???
More than half the time the essence and true context of the message is lost because pseudo-intellects conveniently "Copy-paste" tafseers and translations and the "awaam" is actually gaining their understanding from the copied-pasted translation and not the original source. and this generally applies for all languages;Think about it, there was a REASON why the Jews went back to the REVIVAL of Hebrew instead of relying on translated texts.
Now if you insist on disagreeing with that as well then I will rest my case cos i see this as an ego issue.

Posted 10 months ago on 14 Jul 2011 18:57 #
barackosama
Member

Begum,

Write a tasfir, I'm craving to copy and paste from a genuine intellectual. In the meanwhile when you have difficulty swallowing tasfir, enjoy the hadith, also enlighten me about it's context.

Narrated Said bin Jubair: Ibn 'Abbas said, "Thursday! What (great thing) took place on Thursday!" Then he started weeping till his tears wetted the gravels of the ground . Then he said, "On Thursday the illness of Allah's Apostle was aggravated and he said, "Fetch me writing materials so that I may have something written to you after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter and people should not differ before a prophet. They said, "Allah's Apostle is seriously sick.' The Prophet said, "Let me alone, as the state in which I am now, is better than what you are calling me for." The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders saying, "Expel the pagans from the Arabian peninsula, respect and give gifts to the foreign delegates as you have seen me dealing with them." I forgot the third (order)" (Ya'qub bin Muhammad said, "I asked Al-Mughira bin 'Abdur-Rahman about the Arabian peninsula and he said, 'It comprises Mecca, Medina, Al-Yama-ma and Yemen." Ya'qub added, "And Al-Arj, the beginning of Tihama.") (Bukhari Book #52, Hadith #288)

Ciao

Posted 10 months ago on 14 Jul 2011 20:41 #