bsobaid
Member
Yaad rakho, jang aur naam-nihaad jihaad ka shikaar nations rull jaati hein.
God knows what these little Afghan kids and thousands others like them go through...
http://www.hindustantimes.com/photos-news/Photos-World/lessonsinchains/Article4-781903.aspx
What victory these General Hameed Guls talk about?
Insaaniatt kay dushman.
bsobaid
Member
yeh inn ko dekho...USSR aur amreeka ko shikast day rahay hein...
baysharam bay zameer, insaaniatt kay dushman
Someone should ask them about the plight of millions of Afghan children. What victory and defeat they talk about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p74S4w4W59o
expakistani
Member
Obaid bhai.... Do we have same situation in all madarsas?
bsobaid
Member
Sir, aap ne dekha nahi madrsay mein bachay kaisay rull rahay hotay hein and who knows they become fuel of afghan war...not to mention the rampant child abuse whichno one dares to talk about
Sharif Aadmi
Member
agreed . these mudrassahs are one of the prime reason for this state of our intolerant society.
zaln
Member
مستقبل کے مفتیان و علما کرام کی میڈیا میں اس طرح تحقیر قابل مذمت اور شرم ناک ہے -یہی بچے کل آپ کے لیہ فتوے دے رہے ہونگے بے شک مدارس اسلام کے قلعے ہیں
asif65
Member
@bsobaid
Just putting the picture and that also from hindustantime shows your belonging.
What is about this part of the news?
Several parents, who paid the seminary around $150 to take their children, protested the raid at a local police station.
"I brought my grown up son here because he is a drug addict and he was making my life miserable,'' one man told a local television station. "I don't want to take him back.''
There is little or no state help for drug addicts in Pakistan, and other seminaries in the country offer similar treatment.
Many institutions in Pakistan are also known to chain addicts and some mental patients.
d0ct0r
Member
Title of this topic is misleading and confusing..
This issue had nothing to do with Jang(war) or jihad or Hameed gul..
KARACHI, Dec 13: While search was under way for the four men said to have been running a seminary where over 50 children and 14 men were found shackled during the previous night raid, investigators on Tuesday sounded convinced that the seminary was serving as a rehabilitation centre.
The police authorities and religious leaders agreed that a shortage of rehabilitation facilities had allowed an unregulated growth of such seminaries whose number had reached 700 in Karachi alone.Officials at the Gulshan-i-Maymar police station said they were looking for the four suspects — Mufti Dawood, Qari Abdullah, Qari Qudratullah, Qari Fakharuddin — who were key members of Jamia Masjid Zakriya Kondal, situated near Afghan refugee camp, off the Superhighway.
“We have registered a case (FIR 273/2011) under Sections 342 (punishment for wrongful confinement), 344 (wrongful confinement for 10 or more days), 506-B (punishment for criminal intimidation), 337-1 (Shajjah) and 34 (common intention) against five persons,” said Gulshan-i-Maymar SHO Inspector Ahsanullah Marwat.
“One of the suspects, Muhammad Usman, nominated in the FIR has been arrested. Efforts are being made to arrest the four others, who we believe would have left the city after the raid was highlighted in the media. The children recovered are being handed over to their parents and relatives.”
However, he said none of the parents had so far blamed the seminary administration for detaining their children without their permission.“They willingly handed over the children to the seminary due to their bad habits or drug addiction.”
He said some recovered men wanted severe action against the seminary for which they made baseless allegations such as the administration was giving military training to seminary students.http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/14/question-mark-over-checks-on-seminaries.html
Sharif Aadmi
Member
asif65
A news published in hindustantimes becomes hindu or achooot ? or person quoting should be lashed under your shriah?
Ohh bahi, news appeared in all papers that a madressah discovered in karachi with chained children and this is very common happening in pakistan. Now if this is a centre for rehabiliation , was it registered and under whose supervision under what authoirty it was being run ?
d0ct0r
Member
In a country where govt isn't doing its job of providing basic amenities and is wasting money on running loss making white elephants(300 Billion subsidy for PEPCO while whole civil govt's budget 450 BN) then obviously private individuals like Abdul Sattar Edhi etc come forward and with their limited resources they run orphanage,old homes,animal shelters and rehabilitation centers etc.
Without doubt these people were being kept in subhuman conditions and deserved better but then again situation is same literally everywhere and our people are treated like animals. For example these guys clinging to minibus's roof also deserve better for their daily commute(metro,bullet train etc),those rotting outside courts and police stations to get their complains registered & grievance heard also deserve better..
Dark side of reformatory for "Bad Girls" in Kansas USA.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33461470/#.TuhxULK4q7q
Obviously our govt or private individual can't afford such correctional facilities like this one,where each offender is locked up in individual cells in order to restrain them,here sadly these guys were being restrained by chains(provided by their own parents/guardians) so that they don't runaway and start sniffing samad bond again ..
http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/index.ssf/2011/05/muskegon_correctional_facility_5.html
zaln
Member
مجھے مفتی نعیم کی بات میں ذرا برابر شک نہیں کہ مدرسہ میں ذہنی مریض اور نشی لوگوں کو رکھا جاتا تھا
bsobaid
Member
The grown ups were addicted but not the little children.
This is just an example, you can se thousands other Afghan chidren victim of wars all around Pakistan at dumpsters, truck stands, chai wala, and probably even as child soldiers.
The whole Afghan nation got devastated. For those who are old enough can tell us how many Afghan children were seen in these conditions before Afghan war started? Very few if at all I'd say.
Any achievement and success and plan should be measured by its impact on a common persons life and nothing else.
jabalultariq
Member
You guys have very short memories , does any one remembers Zia's funeral ? The whole afghanistan showed up !!! why ??
Remeber what US did to Saddam's Iraq , initially it was propped up to fight Iran and then methodically neutralized.....history repeats but only the wise and awake learn from it.....
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: Do you value freedom ?
bsobaid
Member
@Haris, ofCourse I do.
I also know the wars imposed on Afghanistan from outside are a big reason for awami sufferings, but the point I am trying to make here is setting all ideological rhetoric aside, outcome of any effort must be gauged by its impact on ordinary human life.
So all those war mongers in Pakistan (Orya Maqbool and Hameed Gul type) are pushing us towards the inevitable outcome of their naam nihaad jihaad and war which we are all witnessing in Afghanistan.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Sharif Aadmi: You Indians need to look in your own backyard before pointing fingers at others.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: You will blame Afghans for fighting for freedom ?
That doesn't even make sense. Your reasoning is flawed, seriously.
P.S. Your sound like your;
(1) pushing the interests of imperial powers i.e., tyrant human beings.
(2) pushing for us to "accept" slavery at the hands of tyrant human beings, and that even without a fight
Dusky
Member
@Sharif Aadmi: Ara aap kee to shahriyat he manshoh kardee Haris bhai na...
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: I don't see how you can blame Orya Maqbool Jaan and Hamid Gul for what they say.
You'r over-looking the fact that foreign tyrants are attacking us, at every level. You want us not to fight to protect our freedom ?
Again, your reasoning is flawed, seriously.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Iqbal said (in urdu);
wohi hai tere zamane ka imam-e-bar-haq, jo tujhe hazir-o-maujood se baizaar kare
maut ke aena main dekha ke tujhe rukhe dost, zindagi teri aur bhi dushwaar kare
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Iqbal said (in urdu);
Fatwa hai Shaikh ka yeh zamanah qalam ka hai
Dunya mein abb rahi nahin talwar kargar
Lekin janabe Shaikh ko ma'lum kiya nahin?
Masjid mein abb yeh wa'az hai be-sudo be-asar
Tegh-o-tufang abb daste Musalman mein hai kahan
Ho'n bhi, to dil hain maot ki lazzat se be-khabar
Kafir ki maot se bhi larazta ho jis ka dil
Kehta hai kon ose keh Musalman ki maot mar
Ta'lim os ko chahiye tark-e-Jihad ki
Dunya ko jis ke panja-e-Khuni se ho khatar
Baatil ke faal-o-far ki hifazat ke waste
Europe zirah mein doob geya dosh ta kamar
Ham puchte hain Shaikhe Kalisa-nawaz se
Mashriq mein jang shar hai to maghrib mein bhi hai shar
Haqq se agar gharaz hai tto zeba hai kiya yeh baat
Islam ka muhasbah, Europe se dar-guzar
bsobaid
Member
Look at my point again Haris.
We must not glorify war and violence like Orya Maqbool and Gul do.
In every column or interview they are advocating taking on with Amreeka, Imam Mehdi, global war, taking over whole world and what not.
Similarly their and their masters agenda is to feel happy just of the fact that USSR and Amreeka were sent back and build on the fact to continue with violence. My point is there is a massive human cost of all that happened in Afghanistan and when making any plans we must take that into account also. To repeat, measuring success and drafting plans to better human life rather than ideological rhetoric.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: What are you proposing ?
P.S. My question remains, you want us to just "give up" our freedom ?
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: If you have alternatives through which we can deter or disable foreign tyrants from forcing war on us, that which does it without bloodshed, I'm all ears.
bsobaid
Member
When Iqbal wrote the poem, India and Pakistan were under foreign occupation and awam were mostly sleeping. Similarly there was no democracy at the time. He also had Punjab's history in mind that welcomed all foreign invaders.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid:
(1) We are still under foreign occupation (indirectly)
(2) Our awam is still sleeping
(3) Democracy has repeatedly failed to deliver in Pakistan
over the course of decades that have passed.
Democracy has proven to be one of the worst of political systems ever conceived by man, not just in Pakistan, but all across the globe.
So, what now ?
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: What Iqbal says in the following still is relevant to our situation;
wohi hai tere zamane ka imam-e-bar-haq, jo tujhe hazir-o-maujood se baizaar kare
maut ke aena main dekha ke tujhe rukhe dost, zindagi teri aur bhi dushwaar kare
Its one of the most relevant of concepts for us.
bsobaid
Member
One, democracy is much better than kingdom or "perceived" khilafat or one-man-non-representative rule.
Second, there are other better ways with less human cost to come out of what you call foreign occupation.
All you said may be true but the point is there is a big human cost of war and violence which we see day in and day out on our streets in the shape of innocent Afghan children and when solving problems we should look at other means than war and violence.
Btw, democracy can solve the problems you stated above.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: (1) BS!. Democracy is failing all over the globe. It is threatening to reduce living standard of 99% of common man of the world, all over the globe
Why should any sane human being accept it ?
(2) Please don't repeat rhetorical statements
I asked for solutions, not repetition of the same tired rhetoric.
(3) You completely overlook the human cost of "accepting" as well as "living" "under" slavery. Why ?
bsobaid
Member
ok, I think you are mixing capitalism with democracy. the 99% protests are against capitalism and not democracy.
Secondly, when did I say nations should live under slavery?
all nations resist foreign occupation.
I am repeating rhetorical statements because I feel you keep ignoring them.
The point again is while nations must not live under slavery but we should also not glorify war and violence for all problems such as what you cal indirect slavery, because there are other much better and effective ways of solving them. so those who glorify war in the name of ideologies are misguiding awam.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: (1) Capitalism died over 40 years ago, when they removed the dollar from being pegged to gold. Its long gone. I am talking about democracy.
(2) This is the third or fourth time I'm going to ask you, what "other much better and effective ways" are there, that you keep referring to ?
Please elaborate.
P.S. Well, thus far, its none other than you who is miss-guiding everyone.
jabalultariq
Member
@ "Yaad rakho, jang aur naam-nihaad jihaad ka shikaar nations rull jaati hein"
jang ya jihad - this is human nature , there is no such thing as "Mr Nice Guy" in this world , so the question is how to enforce justice , was Muhammed Bin Qasim wrong in entering South Asia or was Tariq Bin Ziyad wrong too , both got calls for help from oppressed ????
Sharif Aadmi
Member
Dusky
"
@Sharif Aadmi: Ara aap kee to shahriyat he manshoh kardee Haris bhai na...
"
No problem, Aaadat haai iss kii. Don't worry.
hypocrite
Member
My question remains, you want us to just "give up" our freedom ?
__________
Haris Khan sahib
Yes I want to give up my freedom if my freedom is bought by jeopardising the lives of kids and other human beings.
Yes I want o give up my freedom if my war for my freedom is fought by others and I keep on giving sermons.
Yes I want to give up my freedom is it is obtained at the cost of sacrifices of all accept me.
Yes I want to give up my freedom if the concept of my freedom is defined and decided by those who want to rule on me.
Yes I want to give up freedom if I dont consider freedom for all human beings as their basic right.
Yes I want to give up freedom if freedom is a mere slogan to spread hatred and war.
hypocrite
Member
was Muhammed Bin Qasim wrong in entering South Asia or was Tariq Bin Ziyad wrong too , both got calls for help from oppressed ????
_________
Jabalultariq sahib
I agree with you that there is no Mr Nice Guy. It depends on who is on whose side and who is writing the history. I give examples of whom I like and others give examples of whom they consider as saviours.
hypocrite
Member
If you have alternatives through which we can deter or disable foreign tyrants from forcing war on us, that which does it without bloodshed, I'm all ears.
______
Are the wars being forced only now. What about all those invasions and conquering of foreign lands that have occurred through out human history.
Some times we are at recieving end and sometimes we are perpetrators.
When we are perpetrators we consider it noble. When we are at recieving end we consider it tyranny.
Sharif Aadmi
Member
JT Bahi,
For your kind information, muhammad bin qasim invasion of sindh was not first invasion by arabs. Multiple expeditions had been sent since the time of second caliph Hazrat Umar bin Khittab RA and had failed.
So , saying that MbQasim came in 712 for the so-called sri-lankan girls is quite baseless :) It was an old arab dream to conquer sindh and hind and this was first successfull invasion.
hypocrite
Member
با ادب با ملحائضہ ہوشیار
ظل سبحانی تشریف لا رہے ہیں
جب یہ نظام ایک خطے پر سینکڑوں برس حکومت کرے
تو سب اچھا ہے اور جب عوام کو اپنے حکمران منتخب کرنے کا حق دیا جاتے
تو برا ہے
جب تک میری سوچ سے وابستہ طور حکومت ہے تو سب اچھا ہے
ورنہ سب برا ہے
jabalultariq
Member
SA - the topic is how war can be forced , and I gave 2 examples of how muslims (you call them arabs not sure why) forced a war. US cunningly forced us into a war and now it is defining its own shape
Sharif Aadmi
Member
JT,
i responded to one of two examples and refuted that. Anyhow, thats off-topic.
US imposed the war on us ? How ? It was us who cultivated war in Afghanistan during 70's and 80's and our BRAVE ARMY minted money. in those days wali khan said
"Aaap yahan say bomb export karoo gaaey tu afghanistan say phool tu nahi aayaain gaaey"
So, if our BAHDUR FAUJ decided to be used by US , then its our fault. We should fix our home first then criticizing anybody else.
jabalultariq
Member
SA , the world is'nt black and white , our Army was fully involved and Zia had this perfect opportunity to divert attention BUT we fought this war for US , duped into calling it jihad....US is fully to blame and I dont see a problem with that.....PK had no desire to meddle in Afghanistan without US egging us on........btw this bahadur fauj is all we got so far...I think I heard youre an Indian so you dont care....BUT good or bad politicians dont have the werewithal....we shuold atleast thank Mushy for opening the press
blacksheep
Member
امیریکن صدر جمی کارٹر نے امیر المومنین جنرل ضیاء الحق کے سَر پر پستول رکھ کر کہا کہ تمہیں یہ جہاد ہر صورت کرنا ہی کرنا ہے۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔ امیر المومنین کو چھوٹی سی پستول پسند نہیں آئی۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔ انہوں نے کہا کہ یہ مونگ پھلی جیسی پستول۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔
پھر رونالڈ ریگن صاحب آئے انہوں نے مردِ مومن مردِ حق کے سَر پر اسٹنگر میزائل رکھ کر کہا کہ جہاد آپ پر فرض ہے ورنہ۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔
اس دھکمی پر جنرل ضیاء الحق نے بادل نخواستہ اس جہاد کیلئے حامی بھری۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔ ورنہ تو ہماری فوج کبھی بھی افغانستان کے اندرونی مسائل میں دخل نہیں دیتی۔۔۔۔۔۔۔
;-) :-) ;-)
bsobaid
Member
It will be unrealisticto expect pakistan to sit on the side and see things happening in afghanistan. We share a huge border and we certainly dont want india to set its feet in afghanistan and surround us from two sides. So pakistan had to do something to ensure its safety. However this is not the issue here.
The issue is human toll and war mongering.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
(1) No one went into Afghanistan for the first two years of Afghan <-> USSR war
(2) It was after 2 years of war, when Afghans started to win the war, with weapons locally made in Darra that everyone including USA, Pakistan jumped in
(3) Mr. Zbigniew Brzezinski himself says Afghans, Muslims had all they needed to fight as well as win the Afghan <-> USSR war
Here's his interview with the TheREALNews;
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Video: The Afghan war and the 'Grand Chessboard'
TheREALNews Link: The Afghan war and the 'Grand Chessboard'
12-January-2010
--------------------------------------------------------
Part #1: The Afghan war and the 'Grand Chessboard' Pt.1
Part #2: The Afghan war and the 'Grand Chessboard' Pt2
Part #3: Zbigniew Brzezinski on Iran Pt3
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hypocrite: Did you notice the multiple "if" in your statements when you talked about freedom in your post above ?
That's the sign of a hypocrite alright.
You just killed your "credibility" with your own hands, right there.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Sharif Aadmi: You might want to see this interview of Mr. Brzezinski, before you start asking questions about US forcing war in Afghanistan.
Mr. Brzezinski clearly says USSR was increasing their influence in Afghanistan. This was unacceptable for USA. They had to do something to put a stop to that. So they did it.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: (1) Everything in life is interconnected
(2) What about the human cost of;
(a) slavery
(b) living under slavery
?
There are far far more human beings getting "critically" affected by political, economic, social, judicial decisions, actions than there are from war.
bsobaid
Member
I answered your questions earlier.
I do not propose people to live under slavery of a direct foriegn occupation.
My issue is glorifying and promoting violence and war.
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@bsobaid: (1) Ok, so you do accept/propose for people to live under "indirect" "foreign occupation" ? Is that what your saying in your post above, quote;
I do not propose people to live under slavery of a direct foriegn occupation.
;
(2) No sir, you haven't answered my questions. You have yet to;
(a) propose "other much better and effective ways"
(b) answer if you want us to just "give up" our freedom
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