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Javaid Sheikh are you from Punjab?,If yes, then I want your opinion on something

(14 posts)

  1. ucsher
    Member

    After reading your various posts I have come to this conclusion that you are a hardcore Secularist who make no bones about having non-religious approach to many things!

    Besides, I am assuming that since you are a "sheikh" so there can be a strong possibility that you must be from punjab unless you belong to those rare sindhi sheikhs who have almost become obsolete now.

    Now coming to the point, I was just wondering if you could enlighten me as to what according to you is the reason that the secular point of view is hardly ever supported in Punjab, in spite of its otherwise many secular (or non-religious) tendencies?

    Now i know that I have asked this question already in a previous thread yet to my surprise i noticed that you hardly took any meaningful part in that debate!

    Now I don't know whether the main reason behind that was that you took the thread more on the discriminatory lines as oppose to the intellectual lines or anything else

    but i just wanted to know your opinion on this issue

    Hope you would reply!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 13:59 #

  2. Fahim23
    Member

    Just a short correction: Sindhi sheikhs are certainly not "Obsolete". Memon and Sheikh are THE MOST common casts in Sindh.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 14:37 #

  3. Justapakistani
    Member

    Adding to this u can find many Sheikhs in Urdu speaking community as well.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 14:41 #

  4. javedsheikh
    Members

    @ My Dear ucsher,
    1. Yes I am a Punjabi.
    2. You asked for a very academic topic to be discussed.
    3. I don't acknowledge myself as an authority to resolve this proposition to its best satisfaction.
    4. Most of the scholars in Pakistan and Islamic world misinterpret Secularism as Anti-Religion what is totally wrong.
    Secularism is the rejection of Theocracy which promotes the dominance of the Church over State.
    The western political thinkers well in time realized the complications caused by the Theocracy and succeeded to keep the Church and State Separate what ultimately proved to be a blessing for the progress of modern complex living.
    5. I take Secularism as a feeling and expression of Tolerance for all the Faiths, surviving within the boundaries of a State.
    It is like coquette protected in a jar, combining all the shades, colors and flavors to keep them flourish and stay fresh.
    6. Simon Commission Report of 1928 discusses the qualities, trends, preferences and social structure of all the regions of Indo-Pak Sub-Continent. Punjab is comparatively more liberal, accommodative and supporting and receptive region for a change.
    7. This is the province that welcomed not only the invaders and rulers from several dynasties but also tolerated the emergence of new religions and prophets like Baba Guru Nanak and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
    8. Punjab always played a vital role to create a political change.
    9. Anywhere in the World, the survival of Feudal System always needs the support from religion. The landlords of Punjab who patronized the religion and cannot afford the growth of Secularism in its real shape.
    10. The needs and realities of modern living are gradually working to create a crack in the traditional theocratic thinking.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 15:23 #

  5. crocodile
    Blocked

    Definitions of secularism:

    -a doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations

    -secularist - an advocate of secularism; someone who believes that religion should be excluded from government and education

    George Jacob Holyoake; A British who coined the term Secularism.

    Then there are further divisions in secularism;extremist,fanatic,moderate,Liberal

    Still it remains a second hand mentality.I would even call it a theocracy itself cause all the strong proponent of it have been the atheist which in essence is a religion in itself and hence secularism is a theocracy on the same lines.The maximum attachment on the other side could be with Ibn Rushd who believed in only separation of religion and philosophy not politics.

    But whatever is the case its alien to the masses of the Islamic republic of Pakistan.And does not represent the feelings and adherence to the majority of its population who believe in Political Islam.The minority has every right to exist but the minority's oppression of the majority's believes is not acceptable.Sooner or later this secular minority in the Government have to be uprooted by the Majority.

    Some other Idea?

    Think Genuine..think Free!!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 16:06 #

  6. Prosencephalon
    Member

    Agree with Fahim23 and justapakistani, sheikh can not be regionalized easily to one particular ethinicity in Pakistan,

    More improtantly, actual discussion seem to be evoloving at a very nice intellectual level. I am enjoying it. I will follow and contribute if I can match the intellects these two (ucsher and Javed) are showing.

    Keep discussing.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 16:06 #

  7. ucsher
    Member

    @Javaid Shaikh

    Fair Enough!!

    But what do you think is the reason that apart from these feudal politicians even the so-called urbanites, industrialists and socialites like Shareefs and Imran khan respectively, also seem to propagate a strong inclination towards religious politics?

    I mean though it is (to some extent) understandable in the case of Shareef as he comes from a typical kashmiri/mountainous background but what about the shocking u-turn that Imran took when he entered politics?, i mean the least we could expect from a man who himself admits that he was an atheist till the demise of his mother was to at least show some signs of liberalism (center left) if not secularism..but here he is now advocating extremist creatures like talibans and calling liberals as fascists, to every one's astonishment ???

    Correct me if I am wrong but is it because of that typical "street smart" (rather than "revolutionary & purist") tendency that we generally associate with Punjabi Politicians? i.e
    Most of them prefer being "politically correct" in a religiously conservative society and try to use the historically useful techniques like "Islam romanticiszing", "Indian Bashing", "West hating", rather than, taking the pains of introducing controversial ideologies like Secularism and hence risking their "image"?

    -Also, I want to know your comments on another theory, according to which, Since ISLAM is the only uniting factor left in pakistani punjab now (after the gradual liquification of true punjabi culture by replacing it with persian in the past & with urdu presently) hence punjabis have embraced islam so passionately now that they have no option but to react so rigidly & vehemently against Secularism!

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 17:35 #

  8. KHAN_Sahib
    Member

    Hate content in textbooks:

    According to the report, the Social Studies curriculum in Pakistan, as the product and propagator of the ‘Ideology of Pakistan,’ derives its legitimacy from a narrow set of directives.

    The textbooks authored and altered during the 11 years of General Ziaul Haq’s military rule, are still being taught in schools. They are decidedly anti-democratic and inclined to dogmatic tirades, the report said.

    It said the Pakistani education system had nurtured a cadre of religiously conservative youth as the Pakistan Studies curriculum employed a narrow, politicised definition of Islam in the construction of Pakistani nationalism.

    Pakistan Studies textbooks in Pakistan have been used to articulate the hatred that Pakistani policy-makers have attempted to inculcate towards the Hindus. “Vituperative animosities legitimise military and autocratic rule, nurturing a siege mentality,” the report said.

    Government-issued textbooks teach students that Hindus are backward and superstitious, and given a chance, they would assert their power over the weak, especially, Muslims, depriving them of education by pouring molten lead in their ears. “Pakistan Studies textbooks are an active site to represent India as a hostile neighbour,” the report stated. “The story of Pakistan’s past is intentionally written to be distinct from, and often in direct contrast with, interpretations of history found in India. From the government-issued textbooks, students are taught that Hindus are backward and superstitious.”

    The report added that students were taught that Islam brought peace, equality, and justice to the subcontinent, to check the sinister ways of Hindus.

    “In Pakistani textbooks “Hindus” rarely appears in a sentence without adjective such as politically astute, sly, or manipulative,” the report says.

    “Textbooks reflect intentional obfuscation. Today’s students, citizens of Pakistan and its future leaders are the victims of these partial truths,” the report quoted a news article.

    (Courtsey-National Commission for Justice and Peace report ,Pakistan,Dailytimes )
    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006425story_25-4-2006_pg7_26

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 18:24 #

  9. crocodile
    Blocked

    "religiously conservative youth as the Pakistan Studies curriculum employed a narrow, politicised definition of Islam in the construction of Pakistani nationalism."

    But the solution is not to make the syllabus secular either.A balanced approach is needed that would deal with the demand of majority of Pakistanis.Its definitely not in our interest to teach our kids the history of Europe and European heros or European brand of thinking.Free thinking beyond prejudice and with broad horizon of thought process needs to be included in the text.
    Replacing one conservative thought with another is no solution,specially when the latter doesn't represent the Majrotiy.

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 18:37 #

  10. skyfacts
    Blocked

    Church should have face the same whatever it had been.Making alterations in the GOD made rule has the same results to follow.And the dicision to set aside the church was an obviouse and must be appreciated.The rule ,that muslim is not allowed to marry a chris female is the same ,that they are no more following genuine religion.

    But what about islam when when it gives you inch by inch coverage of all your matters you may face as an individual or as a community,as aminority or majority.

    On the other hand if you think so that we have to surender for external theories(on the basis that islam have no solution for these problems) than this is the same theory ghulam ahmad qadyani and other so called nabis were preaching in past and they presented them selves with more "moderen and updated version of ISLAM" so why not first surender to AHMADIS which are our local fellows atleast,and may also be read through the past nabis teachings also.

    At least we should have brave enough and free thinkers to accept all the "updated islam" whether presented in east or west.And ISLAM presented in east have a one more edge of having a person GHULAM AHMAD QADIYANI AS ZINDA NABI(NAWO ZUBILLAH MIN ZALIK).

    So if punjab are more adoptive, accommodative,supportive
    or shaking mentality and personality,we should expect a new religion always from a PAKISTANI PUNJABI living in U.S,CHINA,INDIA,RUSSIA.PHILIPINE,and also we should be ready all the time to invent another religion comprising of all these religions???

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 19:01 #

  11. NNL
    member

    Secularism as Anti-Religion what is totally wrong.
    Secularism is the rejection of Theocracy which promotes the dominance of the Church over State.
    The western political thinkers well in time realized the complications caused by the Theocracy and succeeded to keep the Church and State Separate what ultimately proved to be a blessing for the progress of modern complex living.
    ====================================================

    JS i dont know if this thought has crossed your mind or you might have had the time to ponder on it.

    Idea that led the West to separate Church from State was due to the fact that their Church had a whole lot of powers and was based on facts or actually the Word of God as the Church itself claimed.

    Therefore they had to come with the idea of Secularism.

    Have you noticed similiarities in the Western style of Govt and Islamic Sharia.
    .
    Could you care to shed light on the problems arising under the true Islamic Theocracy.
    Thanks

    Please understand that this is in no way trying to argue with you and is purely for discussion as i dont think that the Mullahs in Politics are worthy of leading the Islamic Theocratic state of Pakistan and

    Is Pakistan's Constitution really a Islamic Theocratic Constitution or just an inspiration from it.

    (added Later)

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 19:04 #

  12. skyfacts
    Blocked

    !

    Posted 2 years ago on 01 Jun 2009 22:45 #

  13. ucsher
    Member

    !!!!

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Jun 2009 14:03 #

  14. javedsheikh
    Members

    The evolution of different concepts about the origin of the State helps to understand the emergence of Secularism.
    The theory of Divine Origin of State proposed to believe that the ruler was image of God on the Earth. (Zille-Elahi).
    This concept was replaced and deleted by the Theory of Social Contract what helped to adjust the relationship of the subjects and ruler.

    Posted 2 years ago on 02 Jun 2009 19:35 #

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