Jesus(as) Died Natural Death « PKPolitics Discuss

PKPolitics Discuss » Faith and Religion

Jesus(as) Died Natural Death

(119 posts)

12 3 Next »

expakistani
Member

this kind of very different view, would like to know opinion of our online scholars... since for long we are waiting for
massiha....

Please only serious post....

Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 4:13 #
NNL
member

Ask him if he can support his theory with the sayings of Rasool Allah Sallaho Alayhi Wa Ala Alayhi Wasallam or the Sahabah Radhi Allah Unhu or the Tabieen or Itba-e-Tabieen.

He has none he is simply presenting his own claim of the Quran.

His entire job is to take you away from the fact that whatever problems you face in life can be solved by reverting to the ways of the 70000 Already in Jannah.

If you really want to see his absolute ignorance and utter lack of knowledge in regards to Islam then see his debate with Ali Sina and how in the end Ali Sina refuted with his own sources.

FYI Ali Sina and his likes have been time and time again humiliated by ppl who dont claim to be professional scholars on religion.

The problem he had faced with Sina was that he likes create bs up while Sina himself is a bser. So you know the saying that you cant bs a bull-shi-tter it kinda held true for him.

Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 11:41 #
NNL
member

His first claim “mutawaffeeka”

Response.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) when Allaah said: ‘O Eesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that ‘Eesa (Jesus) is Allaah’s son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (monotheists, who worship none but Allaah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the oneness of Allaah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, or in His Holy Books] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.”[Aal ‘Imraan 3:55]

Ibn Jareer, may Allaah have mercy on him, explained that the word “mutawaffeeka” [which usually refers to death and is translated here as “raise” – Translator] refers to his being taken up, but most of the scholars said that the meaning here is sleep, as Allaah says elsewhere in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning):

“It is He, Who takes your souls [yatawaffaakum] by night (when you are asleep)…”[al-An’aam 6:60]

“It is Allaah Who takes away [yatawaffaa] the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep…”[al-Zumar 39:42]

When he got up from sleeping, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would say, “Al-hamdu Lillaah illadhi ahyaanaa ba’da maa amaatanaa wa ilayh il-nushoor (Praise be to Allaah Who has brought us back to life after causing us to die, and unto Him is the resurrection).” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 6312; Muslim, 2711)

Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 11:46 #
NNL
member

his second claim that there is no Ayat which mentions the second coming but there are a lot of hadiths in Bukhari wa Muslim.

He doesnt wish to believe that ok no problem.

If he wants clear evidence of the Second Coming we want the wording for the death. i.e explicit Ayah pronouncing his death cos in teh earlier post we have reufted the fact that the single on which he spins his story is not supported in the language of the Quran.

Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 11:59 #
NNL
member

His Third claim is regarding the Ma'ida

Then ask him about this.

“And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him [‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allaah and a human being] before his [‘Eesa (Jesus) or a Jew’s or a Christian’s] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he [‘Eesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them

Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 12:10 #
expakistani
Member

mashhalah ..very knowlegable..

for a minute i was shoked to listend ghamdi sahib, still trying to find some more infmation...

Jazak Allah guys

Posted 1 year ago on 26 Jun 2010 19:14 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Mr. Ghamdi spreading confusion again, eh ? So, what's new ?

We all know Mr. Ghamdi subscribes to secularism. Islam is at odds with secularism.

Posted 1 year ago on 27 Jun 2010 12:16 #
shafiq12
member

1- The Chapter of Hebrews 5, and emphasis on verses 5:7-8:

Hebrews 5

1 Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.
3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.
4 No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.[1] "[2]
6 And he says in another place,
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."[3]
7 During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Warning Against Falling Away

11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn.
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Footnotes
5:5 Or have begotten you
5:5 Psalm 2:7
5:6 Psalm 110:4

1- In Hebrews 5:7, we clearly see that GOD Almighty had heard Jesus' cries to save him from death.

2- In the book of Psalm 91, we see the same reference with the exception that in Psalm 91:10-12, 15, we read that GOD Almighty will not let the crucifixion to happen, and that the Angels will protect the Messiah from all harm and lift him up:

Let's look at verse 4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them." The false charge against Mary was that she was unchaste. Such a charge is bad enough to make against any woman, but to make it against Mary, the mother of Jesus, was to bring into redicule Allah's power itself. Islam is specially strong in guarding the reputation of women. Slanderers of women are bound to bring four witnesses in support of their accusation, and if they fail to produce four witnesses, they are be flogged with eighty stripes and debarred forever from being competent witnesses.

Let us look at verse 24:4 "And those who launch A charge against chaste women, And produce not four witnesses (To support their allegations) Flog them with eighty stripes; And reject their evidence Ever after: for such men Are wicked transgressors. Unless they repent thereafter And mend (their conduct); For Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." Here we see in this Holy Verse how much Allah Almighty cares about not criticizing women unless we are absolutely sure about it and we can provide at least 4 witnesses to support our allegation.

Now in 4:156-159 above "......Nor crucified him,....."

The end of the life of Jesus on earth is as much involved in mystery as his birth, and indeed the greater part of his private life, except the three main years of his ministry. It is not profitable to discuss the many doubts and conjectures among the early Christians sects and among Muslims theologians. The Orthodox-Christian Churches make it a cardinal point of their doctrine that his life was taken on the Cross, that he died and was buried, that on the third day he rose in the body with his wounds intact, and walked about and conversed, and ate with his disciples, and was afterwards taken up bodily to heaven. This is necessary for the theological doctrine of blood sacrifice and vicarious atonement for sins, which is rejected by Islam. But some of the early Christian sects did not believe that Christ was killed on the cross. The Basilidans believed that someone else was substituted for him. The Docetate held that Christ never had a real physical or natural body, but only an apparent or phantom body, and that his crucifixion was only apparent, not real. The Marcionite Gospel (about A.C. 138) denied that Jesus was born, and merely said that he appeared in human form. The Gospel of St. Barnabas supported the theory of substitution on the Cross. The Quranic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, not with standing certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some of his enemies; that disputations, doubts, and conjectures on such matters are vain; and that he was taken up to Allah Almighty.

Let us look at verse 3:55 "Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee And raise thee to Myself And clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; I will make those Who follow thee superior To those who reject faith, To the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, And I will judge Between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." Here we see that Allah Almighty promised Jesus peace be upon him to raise him to heaven. Jesus was charged by the Jews with blasphemy as claiming to be God or the son of God. The Christians (except a few early sects which were annihilated by persecution, and the modern sect of Unitarians), adopted the substance of the claim, and made it the cornerstone of their faith. Allah Almighty clears Jesus of such a charge or claim. Those who follow Jesus are the Muslims and the Christians who don't believe he is God. All of the controversies about dogma and faith will disappear when we appear before Allah. He will judge not by what we profess but what we are.

In 4:156-159 "......Nay Allah raised him up Unto Himself....."

There is a difference of opinion as to the exact interpretation of this verse. The words are: The Jews did not kill Jesus, but Allah raised him up (rafa'ahu...in Arabic) to Himself. Some people hold that Jesus did not die the usual human death, but still lives in the body in heaven, which is the generally accepted Muslim view. Another hold that he did die but not when he was supposed to be crucified, and that is being "raised up" unto Allah means that instead of being disgraced as a malefactor, as the Jews intended, he was on the contrary honoured by Allah Almighty as His Messenger. The same word (rafa'a) is used in association with honour in connection with Al Mustafa (Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him).

Let us look at verse 94:4 "And raised high the esteem (In which) thou (are held)?". The prophet's (any prophet) virtues, the magnanimity of his character, and his love for mankind were fully recognized even in his lifetime, and his name stands highest among the heroic leaders of mankind.

Let us also look at verse 37:119 "And We (Allah) left (this blessing) for them among generations (To come) in later times: Peace and salutation To Moses and Aaron! Thus indeed do We reward Those who do right." Here we see how Allah Almighty rewards Moses and Aaron peace be upon them. They are considered his messengers.

In 4:156-159 ".....But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death...."

Those who hold that Jesus did not die say that Jesus is still living in the body and that he will appear just before the Final Day, when the world will be purified of sin and unbelief. There will be a final death before the final Resurrection, but all will have believed before that final death.

In 4:156-159 ".....He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

Jesus will be the witness of his people and his contemporaries for those who accept Allah, and against those who reject Him.

Let us look at verse 4:41-42 "How then if We brought From each People a witness, And We (Allah) brought thee As a witness against These People. On that day those who reject faith and disobey the Messenger will wish that the earth Were made one with them: But never will they hide A single fact from Allah !" Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty will judge people based on what their messengers had told them. Allah Almighty sent to nations and tribes prophets and messengers to direct those people from the darkness of Satan, to the light of Allah Almighty.

Let's look at verse 4:171-172 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say Of Allah ought but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, And His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and the Spirit proceeding From Him: so believe In Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above Having a son. To Him (Allah) Belong all things in the heavens And on earth. And enough Is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.Christ disdaineth no To serve and worship Allah, Nor do the angels, those Nearest (to Allah): Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, He will gather them all Together unto Himself (Jesus) to (answer)''

In 4:171-172 ".....Commit no excesses in your religion....."

Just as a foolish servant may go wrong by excess of zeal for his master, so in religion people's excesses may lead them to blasphemy or a spirit the very opposite of religion. The Jewish excesses in the direction of formalism, radicalism, exclusiveness, and rejection of Christ Jesus have been denounced in many places. Here the Christian attitude is condemned, which raises Jesus to an equality with Allah; in some cases venerates Mary almost to idolatry; attributes a physical son to Allah; and invents the doctrine of the Trinity, opposed to all reason, which according to the Athanasian Creed, unless a man believes, he is doomed to hell forever.

Let us look at verse 11:110 "We (Allah) certainly gave the Book To Moses, but differences Arose therein: had it not been That a Word had gone forth Before from thy Lord, the matter Would have been decided Between them: but they Are in suspicious doubt Concerning it." Previous revelations are not to be denied or dishonoured because those who nominally go by them have corrupted and deprived them of spiritual value by their vain controversies and disputes. It was possible to settle such disputes under the flag, as it were, or the old Revelations, but Allah's Plan was to revive and rejuvenate His Message through Islam, amongst a newer and younger people, unhampered by the burden of age-old prejudices.

Let us look at verse 10:19 "Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not Been for a Word That went forth before From they Lord, their differences Would have been settled Between them." All mankind was created one, and Allah's Message to mankind is in essence one, the Message of Unity and Truth. But as selfishness and egotism got hold of man, certain differences sprang up between individuals, races, and nations, and in His infinite Mercy He sent them messengers and messages to suit their varying mentality, to test them by His gifts, and stir them up to emulation in virtue and piety.

When men began to diverge from one another, Allah made their very differences subserve the higher ends by increasing their emulation in virtue and piety, and thus pointing back to the ultimate Unity and Reality.

In 4:171-172 ".....Say not "Trinity": desist....."

Christ's attributes are mentioned:

1- That he was the son of a woman, Mary, and therefore a man.

2- But a messenger, a man with a mission from Allah, and therefore entitled to honour.

3- A word bestowed on Mary, for he was created by Allah's word "Be" (kun....in Arabic), and he was.

4- A spirit proceeding from Allah, but not Allah. His life and his mission were more limited than in the case of some other Messengers, through we must pay equal honour to him as a prophet from Allah.

The doctrine of Trinity, equality with Allah, and sonship, are repudiated as blasphemies. Allah is independent of all needs and has no need of a son to manage His affairs. The Gospel of John in the Bible has put in a great deal of Alexandrine and Gnostic mysticism round the doctrine of the Word (Greek, Logos), but it is simply explained in the Holy Quran.

In 4:156-159 ".....To serve and worship Allah....."

Christ often watched and prayed, as a humble worshipper of Allah; and his agony in the Garden of Gethsemane was full of human dignity, suffering, and self-humiliation.

In 4:156-159 ".....He (Jesus) will gather them all together unto Himself To (answer)."

The disdainful and the arrogant are the crew of Satan, who will be gathered together before the Supreme Throne for punishment.

Posted 1 year ago on 30 Jun 2010 9:26 #
raheb
Member

The all mention above is Belief, even a disbelief is also a belief, and when it goes to faith and belief then reasoning and argumentation can not survive. It is more than sufficient to understand how others think and see, rather then to claim as a 'truth knower' as none of you can give evidence what you are saying, neither the person who claim something different, has any evidence. So just tell that you believe what you believe, and why, BUT not necessarily that the other person is wrong.
The same Quran says, that Allah has promised that every living thing should taste death and die, so How Jesus can be ommited from that law? The same ALLAH say in Quran that "without my will a leaf of a tree cannot move, BUT I have made laws (Laws of nature) and I NEVER change my laws", then how comes that Allah changed HIS law in case of Jesus?
All Prophets were Humen Beings and lived under same laws as we do. The Megical thinkings existed before Islam, and Islam came to make people realistic, yet many of muslims still fasten with magical thinkings.
Just according to Law of ALLAH, Jesus born and died as any other humen being and as all other Prophets did- that is MY belief and you may disagree with it, but NO need to come and claim that you know the Truth and you are Right.

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 07 Jul 2010 22:22 #
shafiq12
member

My dear Brother Raheb

I hope u believe in Quran

Let me Tell u what Quran says about Jesus? Is he dead or Still alive

AN ANSWER SUPREME

What are we Muslims to say to this Christian claim? Nothing better than Allah's shattering reply to the Jewish boast!

(SURA NISAA) Holy Qur’an 4:157

The meaning of Pink number in the Image

2. "Full of Doubts!" — In a state of confusion.

3. "Without Knowledge!" — In ignorance.

4. "Only follow Conjecture!" — Guess

Could anyone have been more EXPLICIT, more EMPHATIC, more DOGMATIC, more UN-COMPROMISING in rejecting the dogma of a faith than this? "IMPOSSIBLE!" is the answer. The only One Who could, would be the All-Knowing, the Omniscient, the Omnipotent Lord of the Universe — GOD ALMIGHTY Himself!

The Muslim believes this categorical Quranic statement to be from God. Hence he asks no questions and seeks for no proof.

Had the Christians or Qadiani accepted the Holy Quran as the Word of God, the problem of the crucifixion would never have arisen. They vehemently oppose the Quranic teaching and attack everything Islamic. In the words of Thomas Carlyle — "THEY (the Christians) HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO HATE THE MAN MOHAMED AND HIS RELIGIO work—Fiction!

Posted 1 year ago on 08 Jul 2010 6:44 #
raheb
Member

S Soldier! you are talking about a incidence which is quite clear that HE was NOT killed, BUT from where you derived that HE then did not died either?

According to muslim belief, Jesus did not killed on a cross, BUT HE died as Adam, as any other Humen being because, it is also from Quran that every person should die one day, so he died afterwards. So NO will come anymore.

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 08 Jul 2010 22:15 #
NNL
member

Again i will repeat we have Sunnah preserved in the Hadith and they alongwith the Language of the Quran beg to differ with statements of people who believe Essa Ibn Marium wont come back.

Posted 1 year ago on 09 Jul 2010 6:05 #
shafiq12
member

My Dear Brother Raheb

Who believe That Jesus Died is not a Muslim my brother

Both Muslims and Christians believe that the grave of Jesus today is empty. It doesn't have his body in it, because both believe that he was raised to Heaven. The difference between Muslims and Christians in this issue is that Muslims believe that Jesus never died on the cross but was raised to GOD Almighty. Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross, was buried in the grave (obviously his foot would've struck at least one stone!), and was resurrected to GOD Almighty.

Both the crucifixion and resurrection, are not supported nor were ever foretold in the Bible's Old Testament, especially for the resurrection! I mean, Christians could doctor and twist verses and translations in the OT to support the crucifixion, but with absolute certainty, there is not a single verse in the entire OT(old testament) that even talks about the resurrection.

Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture):

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 "...he will be raised and lifted up....". Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say "....he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up...." Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible's Old Testament what so ever.

Here are the English translations of Isaiah 52:13 that say exactly "raised and lifted up" or something very similar: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16].

The verses from the Noble Quran and Isaiah 52 are perfectly supported and confirmed at:

Psalm 91 clearly confirms that Jesus never got crucified.

Psalm 116, 117 and 118 indesputably prove that Jesus Christ never got crucified.

Also, please visit: Does the Noble Quran in Verse 19:33 confirm Jesus' crucifixion?

Furthermore, there are early writings that were found in Palestine that say that there is another who was called Jesus BarAbaa (son of his father since his father wasn't known) got crucified in the place of our Jesus Christ, whom people also called "Jesus BarAbaa".

Again, I clearly see the Noble Quran's Claim about Jesus being saved from crucifixion being confirmed in Psalm 34:20!

Posted 1 year ago on 09 Jul 2010 6:27 #
raheb
Member

OK it makes NO difference for me to ask you SS to consider me a muslim or not. In case you are distorting Quran not me.
"saved from crucifixion" DO NOT mean he did not died after..... He died and NEVER come back.

Books of hadith- reference from NL..... anyone can bring any type of hadith as wanted. It is inflation of hadith and many many are hidding behind it. Do we really needs those books???

WHAT should we have done if we did not have such books?

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 10 Jul 2010 0:18 #
NNL
member

Very Simple Raheb and all those who believe that Essa Ibn Mariam Alayhi Sallam died a natural death --- Show me his grave ? We have the graves of the rest of the Messengers so where is the grave of Essa ibn Mariam.

And secondly regarding the books of Hadith. Almost 50% or possibly more is based on Hadith with accordance with the Quran. If you reject one then you reject the other.

When one says this is the Sunnah of Rasool Allah then what is his evidence how do we know its correct ?

You sound like a Hadith Rejector. Well there has been a lot of discussion with hadith rejectors here on this forum see them they havent been able to answer the questions posted to them lets see if you can.

Till then Cheerios matey.

Posted 1 year ago on 10 Jul 2010 12:16 #
akhokar
Member

A tomb of Jesus (as) known as Shrine of Saint Yasuah , which is located in Mohala khan Yar khan in Srinagar in Indian held Kashmir. Hindu scripture; PURANA also speaks of it.

Posted 1 year ago on 10 Jul 2010 22:10 #
akhokar
Member

Dear firends,

Matter of the fact is that in lot many spheres Islam stands at odd to the Christianity but it is very strange that main stream Muslims; they believe the same as the Christian they like to believe that after going through the ordeal of crucification; God somehow came for the rescue of Jesus to save him from any subsequent hassle; made some special arrangement to make him ascended to the heaven.

That is to say that Jesus mission to act as reformer was abundant; right in its offing; which is absurd---- as absurd as this claim of his ascension may be.

Quran simply says that then ‘[4:158] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.’
The word which God has used is Rafao Allah. We do see that this word, most of the time in Quran has been used to denote: with the meanings of Raised above others. So it necessarily does not leave us with the meanings that his prophet hood session as the reformer of Israelite was terminated and God sent him on a long leave.

The history speaks that there were 12 tribes (Sheep) of Israelites living around Palestine. Some three hundred year ago before the advent of Jesus; Israelite were going through difficult times of severe persecution at the hands of Assyrians forces from Syria who were hunting them down. About 9 tribes out of all 12 have since escaped /migrated to far flung countries; like Armenia, the Eastern Europe countries in the north. Iran, Afghanistan and beyond. Many of the land marks in these countries, still bear the names; like we have in our tribal area; Koh e Suleman. Musa khel, Esa khel etc. In Afghanistan we also have a river with name as Yasuh River. All the tribes although later converted to islam but the all resemble Israelis. They act, do business and their marriages and orthodoxy in religion is also like Jews.

On the advent of Jesus; there were only 3 Israelite tribe present among whom Jesus came; whereas all the other tribes had since migrated. Jesus went out to see all his tribes. He lived for long 120 years and his tomb is in Kashmir.

Whatever we believe; whether this goes in our favour of belief or goes against us – or whether Jesus was exalted and ascended to heaven or not.... but this belief hold no waters that Jesus who was sent by God as the prophet of ‘ Bani Israel’ for all the tribes. His mission be called off right in the beginning . It is sure not acceptable. This goes against my God and His designs and I will not believe that my concocted belief; whatever it may be puts me against my God (naoz billah).

I can’t declare Him defeated. No never. I will throw any belief out of window; which pits me against my God. No never.

This is but obligatory; rather incumbenet for the Jesus(as) to go meet and reform all the other 9 tribes spread all over. My vision may be blurd,restricted; infested with misgivings, concocted. There may be lake of knowledge at my part but Not the designs of Allah be seen undermined.
Regards

Posted 1 year ago on 10 Jul 2010 22:23 #
shafiq12
member

My dear Khokhar

Has any Qadiani ever analysed the writings of Mirza Ghulam, to know what exactly he had written about the site of burial of Jesus

I am sure none of you had done that, and if you have then they are all accessory to a massive deception campaign, or else delibrately avoiding to face the truth.
Now let me tell you what I discovered in the writings of Mirza Ghulam. You are of course free to agree or disagree with me, but please, please, only after you have verified the quotes that I have given. My task is nothing but to convey the message, after that it is between you and Allah.

In his various books, Mirza Ghulam A. Qadiani, had given three different locations for the Grave of Jesus. Which one is correct?

Jesus AS buried in Al-Khaleeli (Gulailee).
In 1891 Mirza wrote a huge volume, Izala Auham, which ran upto 948 pages. In the second volume of this book, he wrote a detailed, mind boggling explanation trying to prove that Jesus was not taken physically to heavens (as the Muslims believe), but that he was taken down from the cross, went to his native place, Al-Khalil, died and buried there. He writes:
"This is true that Maseeh went to his native place, and died there, but this is not true that the same body which was buried, became alive again..... verse 3 chapter I of Acts is a testimony about the natural death of Jesus that took place in Al-Khaleeli. After this death, Maseeh was visible to his students as KASHF (vision) for 40 days." (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.353-354)
Grave of Jesus in Quds
However, 3 years later, in 1894, Mirza changed his story. In his other book, Atmam-e-Hujjat (Roohani Khazain volume 8) he once again tried to prove that Eisa Ibne Maryam AS is dead. In an attempt to prove that, he gave the testimony of one of his rare Arab Disciple, Molvi Mohammed Al-Saeedi Trabilisi Al-Shaami. He wrote:
"This has to be admitted that Hazrat Eisa is also dead, and interestingly enough the grave of Hazrat Eisa is also in Syria and for further clarity, in the footnote, I include the testimony of My brother, My lover in Allah, Molvi Mohammad Al-Saeedi Trablisi. He is a resident of Tripoli, in the Country of Syria and in his area is the Grave of Hazrat Essa AS (Jesus). If you say that Grave is a fake, then you must provide the proof of this fake, and prove that when this fraud took place. And in this event we will not be sure about the graves of any prophet and trust will be lost, and we will have to say that all those burial places are fake." (Atmam E Hujat, Page: 18-19, Roohani Khazain vol.8 p.296-297, dated 1894)
Letter of Molvi Mohammed Al-Saeedi Trabilisi:
"O Hazrat Maulana & My Imam. Assalamo alaikum wa rehmatullah wa barakaatohu. I pray that may Allah give you cure (I recieved this letter of Shaami Saheb during my illness) Whatever you have asked about the Grave of Eisa alaihe assalam and other events, thus I am writing to you in detail, and that is this: Hazrat Eisa alaih assalam was born in Bait-ul-Lehm and between Bait-ul-Lehm and Quds there is a distance of thirty miles and the Grave of Hazrat Eisa alaihe assalam is in the Country of Quds, and is present till now, and there is a Church built on it, and that church is the largest church of all churches, and inside it is the Grave of Hazrat Eisa and in the same church is the Grave of Maryam, the truthful. And both graves are separate." (Atmam-ul-Hujjat, Roohani Khazain vol.8 p.299)

Jesus' Grave in Kashmir: However 8 years later, Mirza changed the story once again. Now he started propagating his new theory: Jesus is buried in Kashmir.

"It is proved with certianity that Essa AS (Jesus) migrated to Kashmir. After this Allah liberated him with his blessing and he kept on living there for a long time until he died and was included among the deads. And his burial place is still in the city of Srinagar (Tomb of Yus Asif)" (Al-Huda, 12 June 1902, Page 109)

"I have been informed about the grave of Eisa (in Kashmir)." (Roohani Khazain vol 18 p.358, 361)

"The grave of Jesus is in Kashmir." (Roohani Khazain vol 18 p. 320, Nuzool-e-Maseeh, printed in 1909, after the death of Mirza)
=====================================================

So now we have three different statements of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani regarding the grave of Jesus. My question to Qadianis is which is the correct one? Al-Khalil or Quds or Kashmir?
Wassalam on those who follow the hidayah

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Jul 2010 0:48 #
raheb
Member

Poor baby NNL! you demand to show the grave of Jesus as evidence. My grandfather died long ago, we don't know where the grave of him is.....!! Didn't he died?

If someone show you a grave then you will want evidence that if Jesus was in or if it is a grave of jesus. So where we finish. It is also difficult for you to gibe evidence if Jesus is still alive, or he did not died.

OK, let's say you are right that more than 50% of hadith support Quran, and I also believe on them, but what about those which directly contrast with Quran? Can you believe even on those? I Cannot, because my believe is that The Prophet did never say or done anything against Quran, so such hadiths which collide with Quran must be FALSE, by that must be thrown away.

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Jul 2010 1:10 #
yahya
Member

BBC did a documentary on this a while back;

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Jul 2010 1:16 #
shafiq12
member

My Dear Raheb?

Can u please explain me how Jesus Died?

Muslim believe he didn't die

Christian believe he didn't die

Please don't mind Can u tell me

Are u Qadiyani?

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Jul 2010 1:23 #
akhokar
Member

SS and Friends
All the prophets are said to be extraordinary because they are chosen one who are the recipients of revelations sent by God Almighty. Anything said by them otherwise and other than the revelations is their personal matter and be treated only the--- sayings of a human beings. Well this factor cannot be denied that their saying may be worth following to lead our lives but certainly not the Word of God. They can also improve upon on as per their personal experience, the change in conditions or even the new revelation received as the time goes by.

In all three renderings of Promised Messiah Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed (as) about Jesus grave; one thing is certain that Jesus died a natural death.

The Hazrat Ghulam Ahmed book: 'Jesus In India' is book that he finally wrote; some eight years after he first announced about the death of Jesus and suspected burial places. In this respect there is enough of material available for study under the subject of Jesus at Ahmadiyya website.
Regards

Links
Book availabale on line; Jesus in India;
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html

read more about Jesus At Ahmadiyya website http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Jul 2010 10:57 #
akhokar
Member

SS says;

Rehab are U Qadiyani?

Of course Ahmadies, in Pakistan aka Qadiyanis are the latest on the planet raised by God to revive the real essence of Islam; the true Islam--- but it is certainly not essential to be Qadiyani to carry out the research in the case of Jesus death and that how he travelled later on to see the other tribes (Sheep of Israelite) and then died at the age of 120 years.

But question arises that why we do not find any worthwhile research paper on this subject. This may be because:

• All such reaches are mostly carried out by the Christians; but knowing it to be such that it may fall against their common belief; they may not like to carry out any research lest the researcher be placed against the prevalent myth of Jesus and be jeered. On the other hand India has also put a bar on foreigners’ entry in Kashmir owing to ongoing Kashmir issue.

• Muslims; they otherwise do not like to indulge in any sort of educational researches and---well--- in Jesus case; they may dare not to carry out any such research which may go against the general prevalent myth and belief about Jesus in our culture and then be mocked and placed as kafir at the hands of mullahs. [Jis ko hou dil o jaan aziz; ous ki gali main jaey kyoun]

Mullah invariably rules the masses and holds the rein of power in our society. Having sent their god on retirement; they claim to be the in charge of all the affairs pertaining God (naozbilla).

But now there are researches being carried out on the subject and fact have started emerging.

Thanks for Yahya that he has put up here, the BBC video report on the subject here.

Regards

Posted 1 year ago on 11 Jul 2010 11:52 #
raheb
Member

SS, the ball is in your court to prove that Jesus did not die, so WHY to counter by asking how he died? Does it make any difference that how he died? He died because Allah has written in HIS book that everything must die, that is what every Prophet did also.

As soon as One have some different view/s from many on this forum, you start placing people in different groups/sects/firak and what not, WHY you do so? While placing people in other firkah/sects means you must Place yourself also in some group, and how you know that just you or your group is correct.

I DO NOT believe in any sect/group/ firak or what ever you called, because according to Islam/QUran such things SHOULD NOT exist. SO I don't belong to anysuch thing, I am only and ONLY Muslim, that's enough.

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 0:21 #
shafiq12
member

SS, the ball is in your court to prove that Jesus did not die, so WHY to counter by asking how he died? Does it make any difference that how he died? .

Raheb i have proved u from Bible (the corrupted book)

and the Holly Quran that Jesus didn't die on Cross?

What else u want? Now i think u didn't believe in what i qouted from But they killed him not, Nor crucified him is enough for who believe that Jesus died?
Now if u believe Jesus died, than u must prove it

Where is ur Proof. If u didn't prove than u must accept that Jesus didn't die on Croos and will come in his Second Comming?

How do u prove that Jesus died? That's what Allah says in Quran

He died because Allah has written in HIS book that everything must die, that is what every Prophet did also

Yes he will die in his second comming???.

To confirm what is written in the Book of Allah?

I DO NOT believe in any sect/group/ firak or what ever you called, because according to Islam/QUran such things SHOULD NOT exist. SO I don't belong to anysuch thing, I am only and ONLY Muslim, that's enough.

Do u believe that QADIANI are Sect, My dear they are non muslim and denier of Quran and Hadith of Rasoollullah?

again if u don't mind please tell me

ARE U QADIANI????

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 14:48 #
shafiq12
member

Aay Khokhar

Dear U always run, why u don't think?

If u are True than anwer Questions in the END of Page

Let See the Hadit

"By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Eisa) Ibne Maryam will soon descend amongst you as a Just Ruler; Thus he will Break
the Cross, Kill the Swine and Prohibit the War."
(Sahih Bukhari, Book of Prophets, No 668)

=============================================

I invite all Ahmadis/Qadianis to honestly ponder on this question and give the answer.
Background: For 14 hundred years Muslims have believed unanimously that Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam AS
was raised with his physical body to heavens and will return before the Qiyamah. This belief is based on Quran
and Hadith. Christians also believe in the second coming of Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam AS. Mirza Ghulam
Ahmad Qadiani, when he decided to forward the claim of being Promised Messiah, put forward the concept of
death of Jesus, without whose death he could not possibly convince his followers to be the promised messiah.
He went to great lengths to find the grave of Jesus Christ. First he wrote to one of his follower in Palestine and
based on his feedback announced that the grave of Jesus is in Galilee; later he claimed that it is in Jerusalem.
Finally he sent one of his follower to Kashmir and announced that the grave of Jesus is actually in Kashmir.

==========================================

Holy Quran says in Surah An-Nisa:

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- .but they killed
him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts,
with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not." Al-Quran 4:157)

Hadith of Holy Prophet Muhammad:
Muslims believe in the coming of Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam AS because Holy Prophet Muhammad has said
it. Following is just one authentic Hadith about the coming of Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam:
"By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Eisa) Ibne Maryam will soon descend amongst you as a Just Ruler;
Thus he will Break the Cross, Kill the Swine and Prohibit the War." (Sahih Bukhari, Book of Prophets, No 668)
According to this Hadith, Hazrat Eisa AS will perform the following functions:
• He will be a Just Ruler
• Break the cross
• He will kill the swine
• Prohibit the war

Mirza Ghulam Announces the death of Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam:
Despite Quranic injuctions and clear sayings of Holy Prophet Muhammad about Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam,
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani had a different opinion. He believed that Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam was
crucified, survived the crucifiction, went to Kashmir and died there at the age of 123. In the words of Holy
Quran he just followed his conjectures. (which is very obvious when one reads his book Maseeh Hindustan
Mein.)
"God has revealed to me in his special inspiration that Maseeh Ibne Maryam is dead." (Tauzeeh-e-
Maram, Roohani Khazain vol. 3 p.402)
"I have been informed about the grave of Eisa (in Kashmir). And I have been informed by Holy Quran
and God's Revelation to me about the Death of Jesus." (Roohani Khazain vol. 18 p.358, 361)

Mirza claims to be the Promised Messiah
"I proclaim that I am the Promised Messiah about whom every God's book has prophesized that he will
appear in the Last Days." (Tohfa-e-Golravia, Roohani Khazain vol. 17 p.295)
"I swear upon that God, who has sent me and fabricating on Him is the work of accursed one, He has
sent me as Promised Messiah." (Majmoo'a-e-Ishtiharaat vol. 3 p.435)
From the above quotations it is obvious that Mirza claims that:
• Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam is dead
• Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam's grave is in Kashmir
• Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam will not come as Promised Messiah (as oppose to the belief of Muslims and
Christians)
• Mirza Ghulam has come as Promised Messiah.
Although Mirza Ghulam claimed to be Eisa Ibne Maryam - the Promised Messiah, according to his own
revelation, but read the Hadith again and then look at the life history of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. He did
not rule even for a single day his own village. Even 100 years after his death, there is no justice in the world and
there are wars everywhere. Christians have increased To justify his claims Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and
his followers have ridiculed this belief of breaking the cross and killing the swine, as the following quotation
shows:
"Mian Imamuddin Saheb Sekhwani told me that Hazrat Maseeh Mowood often used to mention that
according to our opponents when the Messiah will come and people will go to house to meet him, then his
family will say that Messiah Saheb has gone out to the jungle to kill swines; then these people will exclaim
that what kind of Messiah is this, that he has come for the guidance of people and he is roaming around
game-hunting the swines. Then he (Mirza) used to say that the cobblers, sweepers and vagrants, who do
such things, will be more happy with the coming of such a person; how can Muslims be happy? After
describing this he used to laugh so much that many a times his eyes used to get watery." (Seeratul Mahdi
vol.3 pp 291-292)

AstaghfirAllah!! He was so consumed with his claims of Promised Messiah that he did not even realise that this
is the saying of Holy Prophet Muhammad SAAW. And yet he claims to be a Muslim!!
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani claimed to be Promised Messiah in 1891, he died in 1908. More than 100 years
have passed and the task that he was supposed to have performed have not materialized. I ask
Qadiani/Ahmadi friends the following question:
• Is this true or not that Messiah is supposed to come to guide the Christians? And Mirza Ghulam is
supposed to be that person?
Do not say no because this is what Mirza says:
"God who is the Lord of Earth and Heaven, He has revealed to me, not once but told me several times
that I am Krishna for Hindus, and Promised Messiah for Muslims and Christians." (Lecture Sialkot,
Roohani Khazain vol.20 p. 228)
Mirza Ghulam of course failed miserably. Hindus did not accept him. Muslims did not accept him. Christians

• In 1900 total world population was 1.6 Billion. (World Population. Source: Wikipedia)
• 2008: World Population: 6.7 Billion. Christians account for 2.1 Billion (28%) all over the world.
(World Population. Source: Wikipedia)
• Total population of India in 1881 was 253.98 million. Muslims were 50.12 million, Hindus 187.93
million and Christians 1.86 million. (Source: Census of 1881, British India 1876/7 to 1885/6
London, Her Majesty's Stationary Office 1887)
• India Population 2008: 1.14 Billion. 80.5% Hindus. 2.3% Christians. 1.7 Million Bahais. 151
millions Muslims.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations)
• 2001 Census of India: Christians 24.08 million. Hindus 827 million. Muslims 138
million.
(http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_And_You/religion.aspx )
Since the advent of this so-called Messiah and Mahdi in 1890s, Muslims in India have increased from 50
million to 150 million (3 times), whereas Christian population have grown from 1.8 million to 24 million!!
These figures prove that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani has failed miserably as Messiah. Christians increased in
his native India more than 13 times. This means that he is a liar and not the person he is claiming to be, because
he wrote:
"If I manage to accomplish in support of Islam that work which the Promised Messiah and the Promised
Mahdi should do, then I am truthful and if nothing is done and I am dead, then let all be witness that I am a liar. Therefore, if I fail in the manifestation of this essential intent notwithstanding millions of
tokens coming forth from me, then I am a Liar." (Mirza Ghulam's letter to Qazi Nazar Husain, Badr
Newspaper, Qadian, of 19th July 1906)

Fulfillment of Holy Prophet Words: Now I will tell you how one day this Hadith of Prophet
Muhammad SAAW will be fulfilled literally inshaAllah, for He is As-Saadiq, Al-Ameen - The Truthful, The
Honest.
When original Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam AS will descend, Christians will have no difficulty in
recognizing him, accepting Him and obeying His commands.
• When Hazrat Eisa (Jesus) will tell them "Allah is One and Only and I am only Messenger of God
and not son of God", they will accept and belief in TRINITY will be shattered, thus establishing
the Oneness of Allah (Tawheed).
• When Hazrat Eisa (Jesus) will tell them, "I was not crucified", they will accept it.
• When Hazrat Eisa (Jesus) will tell them, "since I was not crucified, do not worship the cross,
BREAK THE CROSS", they will break the cross themselves. (Hazrat Eisa does not have to go and
break personally all crosses, as scornfully implied by Ahmadis).
• When Hazrat Eisa (Jesus) will tell them, "Allah has made the meat of pigs HARAM (forbidden)",
they will accept it and KILL THE SWINE. (Hazrat Eisa will not go into the jungles to hunt down
the pigs, again as sneeringly implied by Mirza Ghulam and his followers).
• And finally when Hazrat Eisa Ibne Maryam AS will tell them, "I testify that Muhammad is
the Last and Final Messenger of Allah. O my followers! Accept Him, do not fight the Muslims and
be one with them", they will obey. WARS WILL STOP and ISLAM WILL SPREAD TO ALL
CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

===============================

Question

Now once again, I pose this question to Ahmadis/Qadianis:
Who will the Christians accept, believe and obey?
The original Eisa Ibne Maryam AS a.k.a. Jesus Christ? or
Someone like Mirza who claims that God converted him into Mary, made
him pregnant and after 10 months delivered himself as Eisa?

O Allah show me the truth as truth and give me the ability to follow it; and show me falsehood as falsehood and
keep me away from it. Ameen.

Posted 1 year ago on 12 Jul 2010 15:15 #
raheb
Member

SS, why you are beating the bush again and again. I am not talking about Jesus death on cross or not, because uptill that my views are same namely HE did not killed on Cross, because that is Quranic, BUT he never died is NOT Quranic. Nowhere it is mentioned that he is still alive and come back, så NO question of 'second comming'. NO need of his coming again, he is DEAD forever.

OK, what it will lead to if I say yes I am qadiyani, and what if I say NO I am not??????

While you have also places yourself in some "cage" what is name of your CAGE?

I am FREE from some cages and locked thinkings, and just for it Islam came.

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 13 Jul 2010 0:51 #
shafiq12
member

Do U Beileve in The Hadith of Rasoolullah?

If Jesus is Dead than he will not Come

Let SEE

By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Eisa) Ibne Maryam will soon descend amongst you as a Just Ruler; Thus he will Break
the Cross, Kill the Swine and Prohibit the War."
(Sahih Bukhari, Book of Prophets, No 668)

Now Can u please in easy words explain me if Jesus?

OK, what it will lead to if I say yes I am qadiyani, and what if I say NO I am not??????

This is not answer to my Question?

WHY U ARE AFRAID why u don't tell me that u are Qadiani or Not.

Please answer in Simple word YES or NO

Posted 1 year ago on 13 Jul 2010 9:09 #
akhokar
Member

Super Soldier,

I agree that this must be the most appropriate and logical way that when in doubt; better resort to praying: Oh; Allah guide me on to the right path.

SS: You have given a broad sweeping rendering of you perception in your post--- which can be viewed as an effort of a man who is all out to create and use all sort of barriers to keep him afloat--- against the Truth of Promised Messiah (as); which is somehow out there-----So open, vivid; and so bright and true.

All your resentments shown reflect---- of the fear that if you would come out of your ever crumbling defences and the futile exercises of ducking down behind the barrier of ferocious hatred created against Ahmadies---- The fear is that you might have to see yourelves surrendering.

This frightens the people who have been committing
atrocities against Ahmadies and have kept on maligning them all their life---in ignorance.

I need not to explain a lot to you; rather anything--- because you keep on reading Ahmadiyya books... but this reading is with prejudice, with specific preconceived idea and---- with aim to cherry pick some out of context references which may gives strength to your perceptions that you hold.

This is the ego which is being served and defended. This is no service to God and it is not the way of righteous people.

Better read them again; but with the glasses; not tinted with your perceptions but with open mind.

May be Allah; listens to your prayers.

Regards

Posted 1 year ago on 13 Jul 2010 10:14 #
raheb
Member

SS why are you checking what believe me and what not? I already wrote that what you are writing are also believes, then it is question of 'believes' while you pose to declare your believe as truth and mine as wrong?????

I feel NO liability to reply your stupid questions about my believes.

"Afraid" ? from whom? HA ! HA ! You can reply me your pre-made, ready made, answer of both, yes I am....and?
No I am not.....? Then ?

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 14 Jul 2010 1:05 #
shafiq12
member

Afraid" ? from whom? HA ! HA ! You can reply me your pre-made, ready made, answer of both, yes I am....and?
No I am not.....? Then ?

Again if u are Qadiani? Than why u don't tell?

The hypocrite can answer both YES and NO

A true Man have only answer YES OR NO

Posted 1 year ago on 14 Jul 2010 5:04 #
NNL
member

Raheb it is not difficult for me to prove to you that Essa Ibn Marium Alayhis Sallam didnt die at all and will come back before the Day of Judgement. However the problem for you is that you wont anything else other than what you want to believe. The Hadiths which are in numerous in number all indicate the return of Christ but you as a rejector of Bukhari and Muslim cant them.

The issue isnt with my evidences the issue is with you in not accepting something which the entire scholarly world accepts to be the authentic.

Posted 1 year ago on 14 Jul 2010 11:41 #
raheb
Member

This is RIDICULOUS from both SS and NNL. The first one continuosly shouting to place me somweher without telling me What it whole things lead to??? So an so, for him (SS) this things shows if I am a "true Man" or not???? Fantastic SS! Keep busy to place me and do it where wver you want, for me it makes NO difference.

The second one (NNL) have some easy prove about death of Essa, but all such proves are MAN-Made, written by humen beings BUT Allah NEVER mentioned such a important things in HIS BOOK, But Bukhari and Muslim became to know..... how comes???????

Both of these gentlemen NEVER met The Prophet and NOT even witness of such words, reason is very simple, Because NONE of them was born in Prophet life. Bukhari born about 150 years after the death of Prophet, and you people believe on such fairy tales.

"Entire scholarly world"!!!!!! Is this a criteria of something to consider something as "truth"????????
If 10 idiots say some which differ from 5 common men, should we believe because it is saying of 10 which is more than 5? Is this the way to measure and thinking?

Both of you needs to give a second thinking of most of things which you consider as truth, and to get help, READ Allah's book The QURAN.

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Jul 2010 0:28 #
shafiq12
member

RAHEB

My Dear, I hope u offer Salath five time a day?

If u believe in only Quran than there is no procedure for Salath in Quran, Why u offer Salath according to procedure written in Bukhari and other books of Hadith?

WHY DO U HAJJ? if u don't believe in HADITH?

AGAIN PLEASE TELL ME IF U ARe Qadaini?

Posted 1 year ago on 15 Jul 2010 6:00 #
raheb
Member

SS You are talking more and more NON-SENSE and gliding away from the topic. You have NOTHING to do with me what I do and How, I am not guilty to reply your superficial and stupid questions. It seems you have nothing to come with for topic that's why you are turning towards personal questions which do not leads to anywhere, then its better to put Full Stop about it.

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 0:43 #
shafiq12
member

a simple question to U

"CAN U PLEASE TELL HOW JESUS (PBUH) DIED"?

Please answer "YES" or "NO"

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 6:57 #
akhokar
Member

SS is time and again asking rehab as whether he is Qadiyani or not?

That is how; he wants to box rehab in----and to take... persumably an upper ground and make use of general perception of hatred found induced against Ahmadies in public.

And there by---malign Rehab.

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 8:01 #
akhokar
Member

SS,
Whereas I am waiting for your kind reply at other thread; ‘Our ignorance may be pitting us against our God’.

Anyhow; Just to let you know that; Jesus died a natural death at the age of 120 years.

Quran also speaks of it and does not reaffirm any such incident that he was rescued and bodily taken to heaven. Quran is book which does not leave an ambiguity. One finds any such specific information would be repeated and reminded time and again.

Jesus died here on this planet and Allah puts a stamp on it that Jesus died a natural death when Quran says:

Aal-e-`Imran Chapter 3 : Verse 144
“And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.”

Please look at this verse where Allah says: “Verily, All Messengers have passed away before him.”

Jesus was the prophet of God who certainly came before Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh).

Regards

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 8:13 #
shafiq12
member

Jesus died here on this planet and Allah puts a stamp on it that Jesus died a natural death when Quran says:

My Dear Khokhar,

For last 1800 Years Muslim and Christian Believe that Jesus didn't die but Allah take him to the heaven alive,?

Now in 19th century Mirza Ghulam purpose a new theory,

Can u please tell all those people are wrong before the arrival of Mirza Ghulam. All those people will go to Hell?

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 8:21 #
akhokar
Member

Dear Friends,

SS says: [For last 1800 Years Muslim and Christian Believe that Jesus didn't die but Allah take him to the heaven alive,?]

No; this myth was crafted by Christian on purpose and Muslims only blindly followed the beaten track....copy cat.

But any wrong perception or crafted myth has to see its end.

Jesus was put on the cross to die a humiliating death by Romans on the behest so called ‘Jeyyed’ Israelis ulemas of the time as we have in Pakistan. They kept on boasting for centuries that what a great job they did---till Quran came after about some 580 years and revealed that; what sort of transgressors, they were and how God Almighty has continuously been punishing the assailants.

Jews are the peoples that after knowing it to be such that Jesus was here; they still keep on praying desperately in front of wailing wall and crying; OH God; when you will send us the Eliah that he comes and tell us that when Jesus; the king of the king and their saviour will come?

Jews are praying; Muslims are awaiting and so are Christians ---All are awaiting---for the advent of Promised Messiah carrying their own measures to receive him.

And one who is so eagerly awaited; He says; I am here; 'Main yahaan houn; yahaan houn; yahann'....!

As usual; he is rejected, mocked and jeered------as all the prophets have been subjected to in the past.

But------- there are the peoples who are fortunate enough and are so blessed by God to have recognised him. By grace of God they are multiplying and multiplying very fast.

But for the people who have rejected him. the Promised Messiah (as) says; Keep on praying and pray so reverently for the Messiah to come that you may create marks on your faces of flow of your tears; but ALAS; no Esa will ever come dangling down from the skies.

The one who has to come; he is here.

Regards

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 9:11 #
shafiq12
member

this myth was crafted by Christian on purpose and Muslims only blindly followed the beaten track....copy cat.

1.If this was myth than why Prophet(PBUH) didn't tell the people?

2. If this was myth than what do u think Allah was unaware of it, Why he didn't tell Prophet that Jesus(PBUH) was Dead?

3. If this was myth than i think there is no Christiantiy?

4.If this was myth why didn't Allah explain this in quran

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- .but they killed
him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts,
with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not." Al-Quran 4:157)

======================================

My friend Khokar you are just creating another fiction, and Guess work

Allah has given the answer in Quran

but they killed him not, nor crucified him,

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 10:25 #
akhokar
Member

What is the dilemma here?;

When Jesus was put on cross he was just 33 years of age. He was certainly not killed on the cross; Quran vouchsafe for him.

He lived a long life and died later--- when he attained his age of 120 years.

Quran also reveals that he died later and Rasoul e karim must have no doubt about it----which is given above here [3:144] in a verse where Allah says: “Verily, All Messengers have passed away before him (Muhammad).”

Posted 1 year ago on 16 Jul 2010 12:17 #
pirbodla
Member

@ a Khokar

Once again, I request you to avoid twisting the meanings of Quranic ayahs, just to suite your needs. You must be aware that the punishment of such ‘kazab and kufer’ is eternal fire. I think you must have seen it from a concocted translation. Nowhere in s 3:v14, is mentioned ‘all messengers’. The meaning here simply is that the death has come to messengers before him, so his death will be nothing strange. This ayah does not prove that Jesus (as) was also dead. I am copy pasting three most authoritative translations.
003.144
“YUSUFALI: Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
PICKTHAL: Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.
SHAKIR: And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.”

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 0:09 #
raheb
Member

This discussion has become Infected and should be closed. It is totally locked and no one can prove what is truth, it is mere belief like many other beliefs, and it is always difficult to argue on belief's.
The references given by those who believe that Jesus born without father and did not die..... such references are quite rediculous and irrelavant. Criteria to judge such things as truth or false is/are quite poor.
My belief is clear for me that Jesus born and died like anyother humen being, because all prophets were humen being and by that NOT above then Laws of Nature. AND NO ONE will come back.

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 0:52 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

I quote Quran, Surah Nisa (4), Ayah;

(1) #157
(2) #158

as evidence that Jesus (AS) did not die.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 1:21 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

In ayah #157, ALLAH ALMIGHTY says;

Sahih International
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn
And for their saying, boastfully, ‘We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God’, as they claim: in other words, for all of these [reasons] We have punished them. God, exalted be He, says, in repudiating their claim to have killed him: And yet they did not slay him nor did they crucify him, but he, the one slain and crucified, who was an associate of theirs [the Jews], was given the resemblance, of Jesus. In other words, God cast his [Jesus’s] likeness to him and so they thought it was him [Jesus]. And those who disagree concerning him, that is, concerning Jesus, are surely in doubt regarding, the slaying of, him, for some of them said, when they saw the slain man: the face is that of Jesus, but the body is not his, and so it is not he; and others said: no, it is he. They do not have any knowledge of, the slaying of, him, only the pursuit of conjecture (illā ittibā‘a l-zann, is a discontinuous exception) in other words: ‘instead, they follow conjecture regarding him, that which they imagined [they saw]’; and they did not slay him for certain (yaqīnan, a circumstantial qualifier emphasising the denial of the slaying).

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 1:22 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

In ayah #158, ALLAH ALMIGHTY says;

Sahih International
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn
Nay, God raised him up to Him. God is ever Mighty, in His kingdom, Wise, in His actions.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 1:24 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

These Ayahs testify that Isa (AS) ibn-e-Maryam is not dead. That he (AS) is to return, and he (AS) is to die a normal death at some later date, as per ALLAH ALMIGHTY's decree.

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 1:40 #
akhokar
Member

Pirbodla and Friends,

Oum; so we pick and choose only the translation which suits our belief?

The gentlemen who are seen translating it are showing their intent to leave a meanings that Jesus have yet to die; they are the one that you feel, who are correct because they are also having the same belief as yours....

But this can’t be denied that word which Quran uses; is plural for the prophets who have died before the prophet (saw). We do not find this word which may give an impression as: some of the prophets or prophets except one who died before...

So when we say; the prophets who died before; it will be fair to say and means that 'all the prophets who died before'. sadly; if this falls against our belif then; we have to recicile and correct ourselves and not to try to twist and turn it to suit our beleif.

But I think our discussion should go further that; did God abundant His plan of reforming the other 9 Isralites tribes who were not there and had migerated. Did God saw that his prophet Jesus had encounter a setback in the evry start of his nabowat--- and God rather not only rescued him on the cross but also plucked him out altogether of this world as a retreat of his plan?

Question arises: Do we accept that God (naozbilla)be graded as defeated in the face of opposition also?

Posted 1 year ago on 18 Jul 2010 10:14 #
raheb
Member

Nothing new Haris! Same NON-Sense as before. "Raised towards Allah????? every Prophet raised towards Allah, even every humen being raised towards Allah....why should to interprete that it means living person can raised towards Allah????

Jesus is DEAD and will NEVER be back, so simple it is.

raheb

Posted 1 year ago on 19 Jul 2010 23:43 #