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Jizya and Dhimmitude / A Quranic reading

(25 posts)
  1. Quranist
    Member

    There is no mention of Dhimmis in the Quran and Jizya is mentioned in one place in the Quran. This verse in 9-29 is claimed to be the "abrogating" verse that approved offensive Jihad and the collection of taxes by Muslim authorities against non Muslims. So what does the Quran tells us:

    9.28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

    29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued

    Jizya comes from jaza' meaning reward or compensate. The Quran also says:

    As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

    It also says:

    Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

    So the verse must be read in the Quranic context and it seems its talking about the crowds of Mecca.

    2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

    So it seems its talking about the persecutions in Mecca and upon the prophet's return to Mecca these verses came down. Its not a generic verse since the Quran seperates between the parties depending on their history with the prophet and his propagation and depending on their persecution of him and his followers.

    The verse about the people of the book also its talking about a certain crowd since the Quran itself says:

    Not all of them are alike: of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long and then prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong; and they (hasten in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right. 3.113

    And there are certainly among the people of the Book those who believe in Allah in the revelation to you and in the revelation to them bowing in humility to Allah: they will not sell the signs of Allah for a miserable gain! for them is a reward with their Lord and Allah is swift in account. 3.199

    "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

    So I think this is talking about the crowd in Mecca who sent the prophet to exile and he and his followers lost their homes and property and this is a compensation(jizya) payment. Jizya has no relevance linguistically to tax. Tax in Arabic is dhareeba. Jizya is a reward.

    The sects say:

    Monqiz As-Saqqar attributes the word jizya to the root word jaza meaning "compensate" and defines it as "a sum of money given in return for protection".[14]

    Ibn Al-Mutaraz derives the word from 'idjzã, meaning "substitute" or "sufficiency" because "it suffices as a substitute for the dhimmi's embracement of Islam."[14]

    Yusuf al-Qaradawi says the word jizya is derived from the jazaa', meaning "reward", "return", or "compensation", and defines it as "a payment by the non-Muslim according to an agreement signed with the Muslim state".[15]

    Yet none of their definition justifies payment. Its clear from all their definition whether its substitute, reward or compensation that its talking about compensation or reward or substitution for something. It can not be for their rejection of faith since that is something not the prophet's business and not all of them were talked about in the Quran as I have shown. Its obvious this is about the crowds at Mecca after the prophet and his followers returned to after nearly 12 years in exile and the many battles fought.

    16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

    6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

    4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

    24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

    88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

    39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper

    109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

    What do people today or even those back then who were not persecuting the prophet and his propagation have to do with all this? The Quran makes it clear that no hostilities except with those who pratice oppression.

    I think this is a case when something specific has been made very general without looking at the Quranic context and the Quranic guidelines.

    Others have said Jizya could be ransom for the prisoners. Some of Jews we know who aided the pagans were captures. The verses in chapter 9 looks to be talking about the pilgrimage treaty between Muhammad and his followers and the crowds at Mecca. So this could be also a refernce to the Jews of Mecca paying the ransom(fidya) for their Jewish brethren held as prisoners with the prophet and his followers.

    33,26. And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.

    33.27. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things

    So Jizya could also be in reference to this event. In anyways its hard from a Quranic point of view to understand Jizya the way sects do which is taxes imposed on "non Muslims" simply for not being "Muslims" but getting protection anyways. Especially if these "non Muslims" never asked for their protection in the first place.

    Its a money grab if you ask me. Although at 5% its not much of a tax. Thats what I think the sects asked for anyways. Maybe there were other ways to make money out of the so called non Muslims.

    Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

    So Jizya could mean compensation for the losses and it was imposed after the defeat of the pagans of Mecca and their allies among the Jews. There is no reason that this verse was talking about any other crowd than the crowd that was at war with the pophet. Jizya seems to be a compensation for the loss of property, home and maybe the ransom for prisoners.

    We call this today war reperations. There is many reference to the Jews of medina in the Quran yet no term of Jizya was used on them.

    Chapter 9 starts this way:

    1. A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

    2. Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

    3. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

    4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous

    The context is an agreement with the pagans of Mecca with two crowds, one an alliance with the other a battle still pending. The other crowd was the:

    13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

    It is clear that chapter 9 was talking about tow parties that are with war with another and one party took the agrressive act and sent anotrher party in exile making them lose their homes and properties and the verse of Jizya came in the context of the pagans of Mecca and their Jewish allies.

    Quran is peace!

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:09 #
  2. chechen
    Member

    semirza, The shaitanist is back. Need to tackle this dirt bag once for all. Where is Beenai?

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:11 #
  3. Chechen, I believe you people can tackle him. Obviously he wants to approve or disapprove 'Jizya and Dhimmitude'. Tackle with reason!

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:20 #
  4. skyfacts
    Blocked

    chechen,

    semirza is the new moderator...you still dont know ???....oh

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:22 #
  5. chechen
    Member

    semirza, my sincere apology. Good comment to react that shaitanist wth reasoning

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:24 #
  6. Quranist
    Member

    Jizya was a way for the ummayids and Abbsids to impose religious taxes on their minority subject. No justification for this can ever be claimed from the Quran. There is nothing called an Islamic state in the Quran. The issue with Mecca was a simple case of freedom of religion and persecution and exile and loss of home and property. The meccas refused to accept freedom of religion and they imposed a Ridda law on the prophet and his followers claiming he refuted the pagan faith of his people and denounced the gods of his people and heritage.

    This is against the teachings of the Quran. Quran gives absolute freedom and in no way should any money be forced through religion to be given to tyrants and dictators so as to squander people's wealth. Another big lie is the House of Zakat myth where Muslims have to pay their Zakat money not to God but to the sultan.

    What the sects did is simply replace the sultan with the prophet and called it Islamic law. These are not Quranic concepts and must be stopped. Islam is peace and freedom and not some dictatorial state. The prophet has nothing to do with these money grabbing teachings. Jizya is material justice, this is what we humans shoud do is worry about material justice and as far as spiritual justice that God's domain and He will judge us on the day of resurrection. The Quran ordered the prophet to leave matters of faith to God and to worry about material justice like all societies. Everyone who was wrongfully persecuted and lossed his home and property should be adequetely compensated. This is Jizya.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:25 #
  7. shikra
    Blocked

    This person Quranist seems to be knowledgeable and well prepared for an intellectual discussion.
    Tackle him with reason and knowledge.
    You cannot defeat him with mere emotionalism.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:29 #
  8. skyfacts
    Blocked

    Quranist/Mulla,
    shikra/JS,

    Every one comming from you can be defeated by good arguments we know that....but than you start blasphemic approach which kills the discussion.....so pls avoid blasphemic attitude here....

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:35 #
  9. chechen
    Member

    When you know that the founder of this shaitanist cult is patronised by West and having its temple under the shadow of Whitehouse in Washington DC, it does not take rocket science to undertsnad their sinister agenda and ultimate goal. It will be exercize in futility and waste of time and energy to respond to that fitna. I would wait for NNL and he may take the lead as he is more well versed in Quran and Hadith.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 16:42 #
  10. shikra
    Blocked

    The problem is where persons like skyfacts have no aptitude and temperament to argue.
    They start spitting venom due to lack of knowledge.
    Finally these people end up with the Fatwas of Kufr, Murtad, Wajab-ul-Qatl and motivate their fellow fanatics to kill and burn the opponents.
    Their game is over.
    Who cares about such Fatwas?
    Try to answer the Quranist with documentary proofs and if he is right then surrender to his wisdom and truth.
    This is a civilized way of debate what I learned from Beena, Fahim, Peterpan, JS and Khan Sahib.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 17:35 #
  11. Quranist
    Member

    The Quran says:

    5.43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

    44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

    45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers

    Life for a life, and eye for an eye and a nose for a nose and tooth for a tooth and a ear fro a ear. Extreme justice and equity. Everything must fit for the punishment and crime and loss. The Israelites through the Talmud twisted this verse to mean and eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw. Thet also elevated the life of an Isralite above others and dehumanized non Jews. The Talmud is the oral traditions in Judaism equivalent to the Sunnah for the sects.

    This is the Quranic sense of justice. The Quran always encourages pardon as a gratitude to God and a form of charity.

    "But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself."

    Jizya is the sense of justice and substitution for losses incurred by one party for being persecuted and taken from their homes and losing their livelihoods for no reason except their faith and their rejection of the religion of their fathers.

    The current Ridda law followed by the sects is part of this Meccan practice. There is nothing called Ridda law in the Quran. The Quran is a forward looking, progressive and intellectual philosophy who believes humans can be lifted up above the level of animals whose sense of justice is the strong conquers the weak. Here the Quran outlays for us true justice is proportional.

    The Quran used another example for proportional justice.

    2.178. O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.

    179. In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves

    Here once again we see the Quranic emphasis on equity and justice. Once again everything is to be proportional. A man for a man and a slave for a slave is identical to an ear for an ear and a tooth for a tooth. And once again it incourages pardon of forgiveness by the party who has been inflicted upon and the party who is doing the infliction.

    Qisaas is not revenge as some people take it. The murder of a man does not mean you murder another man, or the murder of slave means you go execute another slave. What happens then when a slave kills a man? Do you then execute or imprison another slave? This is not the meaning of the verse. It means everything must be proportional. It is a symbolic use of language like tooth for tooth. Everyone should be equal and everyone should be compensated for exactly what he lossed. Here the Quran obviously is dealing with manslaughter and accidental losses and how to settle disputes between two parties where one has taken some losses of some kind.

    But once again a person can forego his right as a way of charity.

    As far as premidated murder, this moves beyond the individual to the community as a whole since this is an act that concerns the safety of all memeber of society.

    The Quran speaks about the crime of murder when it talks about the stroy of the two sons of Adam:

    5.27. Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah.: It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter: "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.

    28. "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.

    29. "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."

    30. The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother: he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.

    31. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-

    32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

    33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

    34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    Here the Quran tells us about how one of the sons of Adam deliberatley murdered his brother out of spite. The Quran says this crime commited by our father Adam's son is a crime against humanity. We are all descendants of them and the loss of one is the loss of all of mankind. If both were killed we would not even be here.

    The Quran says that this knowledge was given to the Israelites however with the Talmud they gave the status of humanity to the Israelite nation only. They said only killing another israelites is like killing all of mankind. The Quran then gives a choice of punishment for this ranging from execution to banishment from society such as exile or jail. Here a punishment of some sort must be administered due to the nature of premidated murder which is a communal issue affecting the safety for all members. But in issues regarding manslaughter or loss of property we should compensate the parties equitably with equal proportions. Nobody shoul be above anybody. An eye for an eye and slave for a slave.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 17:40 #
  12. chechen
    Member

    civilized way? You learned your civilized way from others rather than God Almighty. That is your problem living in a "civilized" country.

    Who is killing and who is burning? Please read the excerpt from Murad Hoffman, the German ambassador who embraced Islam and has been a regular visitor ot US and Canada. He wrote this after 9/11. You can find his artilces on Web.

    Let us now take a good look at the record of that marvelous, self-appointed center of rationality, the enlightened Western world. Since the 18th century, in contrast to the high ideals pronounced and exported, what one discovers in terms of actual behavior is highly disturbing: Slave-trading-50 million, extermination of native populations-100 million, apartheid and colonialism -countless millions killed; two savage world wars-75 million killed ; Stalinist massacres-29 million killed and the Nazi holocaust-6 million ; ethnic (in reality, religious) cleansing in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kosova and atomic warfare against civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A total of nearly half billion killed in these genocides.

    These disasters were the bloodiest the world has ever seen. But even if Western people were not at war with each other, they have behaved violently against nature: against animals, plants and even minerals-to the point that the destruction of resources and environmental disasters like air pollution threaten the survival of mankind.
    None of the bloody excesses I mentioned took place in the Muslim world; and yet the West, in spite of such a record, has the nerve to ask the rest of the world to follow its example and to deny not only the existence, but also the possibility, of an alternative

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 17:43 #
  13. Quranist
    Member

    Its not important what the West thinks or what Muslims believe. Whats important is what the Quran says about the issue. The Quran is not here to build us a state, but it is here to guide us towards the path of justice and equality and freedom and guide us towards building a community of justice and peace and tolerance. The West has reached some of these conclusion with itself based on self interest. They do not afford that to other nations, once again based on self interest. As followers of the Quran we do not base our life on material self interest or even national self interest. We base our ethics based on obedience to God and His messengers. We take our guides from the scriptures and we believe in an after life where we will be judged.

    The West has a vicious history and even today commit acts that is hypocrytical to the principles it claims to hold. They are concerned about their own interest and they care little about other nations. Their history is a colonial one and exploitation of other nations. This is the law of the jungle and not the law of Qisaas.

    The Quran says we must do rightoeus deeds for the goodness of our souls. It says generosity is being generous to ones soul since we will be repaid that by God. Being stingy is being stingy on your own reward and own salvation.

    Who cares anyways what the West or Muslims or anybody else thinks? The Quran is not authored by the West or Muslims. It is what God has revealed to His messenger and obedience to the Quran is obedience to God and His messenger as it is an obedience to the previous scriptures and pevious prophets.

    The Noble Qur'an 2:285

    The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allâh, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say, "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)."

    The Noble Qur'an 2:136

    Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)."

    The Noble Qur'an 4:152

    And those who believe in Allâh and His Messengers and make no distinction between any of them (Messengers), We shall give them their rewards, and Allâh is Ever Oft­Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    This is Islam and this is the Quran. Quran is peace!

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 17:59 #
  14. chechen
    Member

    "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger."

    This statement of Allah SBT says it all. If nauzubillah, the Quran was the only source of guidance, then Allah would have said "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah."

    By denying the Hadiths of the Prophet SAS the shaitanist are declaring War against Allah and His messenger.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 18:04 #
  15. Quranist
    Member

    2.278. O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if ye are indeed believers.

    279. If ye do it not, Take notice of war from Allah and His Messenger. But if ye turn back, ye shall have your capital sums: Deal not unjustly, and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.

    280. If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew.

    "If ye do it not, Take notice of war from Allah and His Messenger"

    Of course this is not a physical war but is identical to the war on poverty or the war on drugs. The Quran uses the term "qital" for physical warfare. Harb against God and His messenger means also opposing and disobeying God and His messenger. here the Quran says those that insist on Riba(capital exploitation) are commiting an act of war against God and His messenger. The Torah and Gospel also speak out against capitalistic exploitation of poorer people of the Earth. The Isrealites however allowed the practice of Riba on non Jews. This is part of the Talmudic deviations.

    Those who actaully fight physical battles are refered to in the Quran in many places and the captures are always considered prisoners. Murder is an act of warfare against the teachings of the Quran. Like Shirk and and adultery, these are all unrighteous acts.

    However the Quran would have used qital if it meant actual warfare in the sense of slaying.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 18:17 #
  16. chechen
    Member

    Shaitanist is giving quotes from Quran that itself makes his arguments fall apart. Quran and Hadith are source of guidance-Shariah for last 1400 years and this shaitanists invented their own cult by denying Hadiths that is tantamount to Kufr. Quran itself says:

    Obeying the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) involves obedience to Allah, Who says: “Whoso obeys the Messenger obeys Allah” (An-Nisaa’: 80).

    Almighty Allah also says: “We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah’s leave” (An-Nisaa’: 64).

    Obeying the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is one of the articles of faith. Almighty Allah says: ”But nay, by thy Lord, they will not believe (in truth) until they make thee judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of that which thou decidest, and submit with full submission” (An-Nisaa’: 65)

    Obeying him brings guidance. Almighty Allah says: “If ye obey him, ye will go aright” (An-Nur: 54). We also read in the Qur’an, “So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His words and follow him that haply ye may be led aright” (Al-A`raf: 158).

    Obeying him is the fountain of mercy. Almighty Allah says: “And obey Allah and the Messenger, that ye may find mercy” (Aal `Imran: 132).

    Obeying the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) qualifies one to be among the gathering of prophets, saints, martyrs, and devout servants of Allah. A Qur’anic verse reads: “Whoso obeyeth Allah and the Messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favor, of the Prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they! Such is the bounty of Allah, and Allah sufficeth as Knower” (An-Nisaa’: 69–70).

    Obeying the Prophet is a ticket to Paradise. Allah the Almighty says: “Whoso obeyeth Allah and His Messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow, where such will dwell for ever. That will be the great success” (An-Nisaa’: 13).

    Obeying him makes the person victorious. Almighty Allah says: “He who obeyeth Allah and His Messenger, and feareth Allah, and keepeth duty (unto Him): such indeed are the victorious” (An-Nur: 52).

    Following in the Prophet’s footsteps is an expression of love for Allah and a sign and a way of gaining Allah’s love. Almighty Allah says: “Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you” (Aal `Imran: 52).

    Following him is the way to gain Allah’s forgiveness. Almighty Allah says: “Allah will love you and forgive you your sins” (Aal `Imran: 52).

    The above-mentioned Qur’anic verses stress the necessity of obeying the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and following his guidance. Also, many hadiths give the same indication that it is necessary to obey the Prophet and that those who do not follow his footsteps place themselves at risk. Following are some of these hadiths:
    Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) reported the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying, “All my nation will enter Paradise except those who refuse.” The Companions asked, “Who dare to refuse, O Prophet?” The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) answered, “Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise; and whoever disobeys me is showing refusal” (Al-Bukhari).
    Abu Musa reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The similitude of mine and the message I have been sent with is that of a man who came to a people saying, ‘I have seen the enemies’ armies with my own eyes. I am just a warner, so run away.’ Thereupon some of his people obeyed and left the place and thus could survive. Whereas the rest disobeyed and stood still until the enemy came at them and slaughtered them all. The former (group) is like those who obey me and follow my guidance, and the latter is like those who deny the truth and disobey me” (Al-Bukhari).
    The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, “Stick to my Sunnah and the practice of the Rightly Guided Caliphs after me. Adhere to it and stick firmly. Beware of innovation, for innovation (in matters of religion) is no more than heresy, which is a form of straying” (Abu Dawud).

    The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever commits an act of heresy in matters of religion will have it rejected” (Al-Bukhari and Muslim)
    `A’ishah said, “Once the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did something and gave concession regarding it. Then some people did not resort to the concession (and went to extremes). When the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was informed of that, he delivered a sermon in which he praised Allah and said, ‘What about those people who keep aloof from things I myself do! By Allah! I am the most knowledgeable and Allah-fearing among them.’”

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 18:35 #
  17. @shikra
    Contribute to the thread or just watch.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 18:40 #
  18. NNL
    member

    Semirza sahib a request could you please reopen my thread Questions to Quranist and remove the un-necessary replies.

    Would greatly appreciate it.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 18:42 #
  19. @skyfacts
    I am still waiting for a knowledgable contribution from you! Two giants are in discussion. What about you and shikra. Say something that adds to this debate!

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 18:42 #
  20. Quranist
    Member

    How is obeying the Quran disobeying its messenger? If the messenger came with the Quran how can he preach what is against it. Obeying the Quran is obeying what the messenger came with.

    Everybody can see this. Anyways what does this has to do with Jizya and justice?

    The sects say Jizya is a tax imposed on non Muslims by the ruler as a substitute for their lack of embracing islam. Whats their business what people embrace or not? Are they God? Whose business is it? And why should be people pay the ruler this money? Who is this ruler? And why should it be his business or anybody elses what people follow or wish to embrace?

    This is completely against the teachings of the Quran and this is not what the messenger came with. The messenger came with a message of peace and tolerance and as a warner against the day when we shall rise to meet our God. The messenger came to guide us towards the straight path and to show us the way for salvation. He did not come to kill prisoners and execute people and impose taxes on them and tell them to give them to the sultan. These sects serve the dynasties and not the little person. The history of the Islamic empires has been conquests and slavery and Jizya taxes. This is not Islam and this is not what the messenger came with.

    The Quran never said we should seek guidance outside the pages of the Quran. It made that clear in many cases:

    It says the Quran came to make things clear to us:

    "We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear: "(36:69)

    "These are Verses of the Book that makes (things) clear."(28:2)

    "We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from(the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear (Allah)."(24:34

    "By the Book that makes things clear,"(43:2, 44:2)

    The Quran it says it came to make things detailed to us:

    “And certainly We have brought them a Book, which We have detailed with knowledge, a guidance and mercy for a people who believe”(7:52)

    “A Book of which the verses are distinctly detailed, an Arabic Qur’an for people whoknow”(41:3)

    “Indeed We have made the verses detailed for a people who take reminder”(6:126)

    It says it came to address all matters we need:

    “In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not anarrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.”(12:111

    Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book, which is recited to them? Most surely there is a mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe”(29:51)

    Quran is peace and whoso obeys the Quran is obeying its messenger.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 18:45 #
  21. Which thread NNL?

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 18:56 #
  22. NNL
    member

    So you will argue with Umar radhi Allah Taala Unhu.

    that the Prophet said,

    «لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه»

    (Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated fromAbdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ashari that he said, "I recorded forUmar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of AllahUmar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims. We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims. We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them. We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets. We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets. We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.' When I gave this document to Umar, he added to it,We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 18:58 #
  23. NNL
    member

    Mirza Sahib " Questions to Quranist Wala" if you cant find it or there is some other reason it cant be started can i start it again ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 19:10 #
  24. Questions to Quranist Wala are not there. There is no other reason. You can post them again.

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 19:30 #
  25. skyfacts
    Blocked

    semirza sb,
    i am very busy today.I just find some time to go through some posts and than move..
    2morrow it will be possible for me to be here with some answers....:)

    Really missing this time.....

    Posted 2 years ago on 04 Aug 2009 19:37 #

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