PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

Little to celebrate!!!!

(40 posts)
  1. Revivalist
    member

    Dear all,

    Capitalism has little to celebrate 20 years after the fall of communism Western leaders triumphantly commemorate the fall on the Berlin Wall 20 years ago yet their over-hyped celebrations betray a false sense of success.

    The fall of the Berlin Wall symbolically marked the beginning of the end of communism in 1989. Communism had failed as an ideology and system and was emphatically rejected by the people. It was said to be a victory for capitalism, freedom and democracy.
    Today’s western leaders appear to be exploiting events of two decades to extend the sell-by-date of capitalism – an ideology in decline much like its previous nemesis - communism.

    Economically capitalism’s flaws have been exposed for all to witness in the last couple of years with the near collapse of the western financial system. So great was the disaster that western governments pulled out all the stops to avert domino-like bank failures from London to New York to Paris to Bonn and the rioting that would inevitably have resulted on the streets of western capitals.

    As unemployment climbs with tens of millions workless and debt ridden growth comes to a halt trust in free markets is now at a low ebb. A recent poll by the BBC found nearly 1 in four respondents thought capitalism was fundamentally flawed. It was over 4 in 10 in France.

    Militarily capitalism has shown its true colours with western nations conducting wars and the occupation of foreign lands, at will. Western military invasion of Afghanistan in 2002 was followed by occupation of Iraq in 2003. While battles continue to rage in Afghanistan eight years on, the western battlefront has extended to the boarders of Pakistan. The warring and belligerent nature capitalism has been exposed - spreading freedom and democracy at the barrel of a gun or callously committing war crimes to gain access to vital energy resources.

    Politically capitalism’s mother of all parliament’s, the UK’s House of Commons, has been discredited like never before. Members of Parliament, who lecture society on citizenry, have been found exploiting allowances to boost their incomes and advance the life styles of their families with gratuitous disregard for the people who elected them to office.

    Finally, capitalism’s social construct based on individualism and materialism has created a cruel, greedy society. Criminals are younger while crimes are increasingly more violent. The stark reality of broken families, teenage mothers, absent fathers, sexually transmitted diseases are not the exception but the norm - surely a clear sign of a dysfunctional social model.
    Thus if truth be told, capitalism has little to celebrate 20 years after the fall of communism.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 7:00 #
  2. amin1924
    member

    Capitalism has yet to find a solution to the on going credit crunch.

    Will it compromise on it's core values to sustain or revive this dying elephant?

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 7:07 #
  3. capitalism defeated communism, yet capitalism needs improvemnets,

    capitalism has failed to eradicate the poverty, food defecency, unemployment and difference of classes.

    Wolrd need much improved new world economic order.

    For god sack, do not tell me Mulla & Islam provide solution to all problems.

    Islam has been encroached by mulla & madrissa.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 9:00 #
  4. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    Islam IS! the religion. Islam DOES! provide the solutions.

    No Mulla has encroached Islam. It has been the rulers of Pakistan who have encroached, who have violated Islamic principles.

    Islam has NEVER been brought to power in Pakistan. There's no system of Islam in the world today.

    No one can deny this fact.

    You can ONLY! blame Mullah, when the state provides them with the necessary livelihood and THEN they do something wrong. To my knowledge, that time has NEVER! come to Pakistan.

    The state NEVER created council of educated, elders, who were the most knowledgeable. The state NEVER encouraged debates, discussions on constructive topics, in the last 60+ years.

    It is the people of this nation, that have privately continued to practice and spread Islam.

    The state as it is, IS DEAD!!

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 9:29 #
  5. amin1924
    member

    Islam will defeat Capitalism inshAllah.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 9:36 #
  6. gv
    Member

    the simple definition of capitalism is: a socio-economic system based on PRIVATE property rights and the PRIVATE ownership of resources (land, labour, machinery,financial capital)

    how is that so different from 6th century mercantile meccan society?????? Therefore in the pure sense of the term, the prophet muhammed as a profit earning merchant was as much a capitalist as any other businessman...

    i think one should understand a concept or a term before one begins to oppose it so vehemently..

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 10:12 #
  7. amin1924
    member

    gv,

    good question.

    i think we need to study islamic economic model and then compare it with capitalist model and see the difference.

    islam allows trade but forbids usury -just one 'little' difference for your information.

    thx

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 10:24 #
  8. gv
    Member

    usury is different from interest.... to put it in layman's terms interest is the (rational) rental cost of using somebody elses capital...

    usury is the abuse of that rental notion by being an irrational and unfair charge on the use of capital... a usurious economy will run itself into the ground...

    an interest charging economy will benefit both users and owners of capital...

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 10:39 #
  9. amin1924
    member

    Watch Capitalsm: A true love story by michael moor.

    also see if you can find any recent work done on Islamic economic model to understand it's basic perspective and principles.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 10:51 #
  10. gv
    Member

    Islamic promotes a welfare market economy which protects the rights of the economic underclass via zakat and by banning riba/sood which is interpreted by moderates to mean usury and conservatives to mean interest..

    my interpretation is that modern islamic finance is essentially couched up in semantics trying to justify a proxy interest rate through equity type structures... interest is the lubricant of an economy it frees up capital for entreprenuers... no economy can survive without it...

    there's loads of stuff on the internet... start with wiki if you like...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_finance

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 11:04 #
  11. gv
    Member

    @jj also its one thing to criticise the current incarnation of capitalism in the US and another to blindly attack what is a progressive and efficient economic system..

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 11:09 #
  12. amin1924
    member

    Please elaborate with a case or two on your below statement.

    my interpretation is that modern islamic finance is essentially couched up in semantics trying to justify a proxy interest rate through equity type structures.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 11:15 #
  13. gv
    Member

    this is from wiki:

    In an Islamic mortgage transaction, instead of loaning the buyer money to purchase the item, a bank might buy the item itself from the seller, and re-sell it to the buyer at a profit, while allowing the buyer to pay the bank in installments.

    However, the fact that it is profit cannot be made explicit and therefore there are no additional penalties for late payment. In order to protect itself against default, the bank asks for strict collateral. The goods or land is registered to the name of the buyer from the start of the transaction. This arrangement is called Murabaha.

    Another approach is EIjara wa EIqtina, which is similar to real estate leasing. Islamic banks handle loans for vehicles in a similar way (selling the vehicle at a higher-than-market price to the debtor and then retaining ownership of the vehicle until the loan is paid).

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 11:19 #
  14. amin1924
    member

    It is quite clear, so what is issue there?

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 11:23 #
  15. shahzad1924
    member

    @gv - "how is that so different from 6th century mercantile meccan society??????"

    well, we can start with Adam Smith's "Economic Problem" but let me just say one thing"

    "Therefore in the pure sense of the term, the prophet muhammed as a profit earning merchant was as much a capitalist as any other businessman"

    if someone is finding ways to earn a profit, that doesn't mean he is a capitalist. Islam does not prohibit one from earning money, infact the Islamic economic system encourages the investment of money.

    and Islam doesn't just prohibit usury. it prohibits all forms of interest.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 11:26 #
  16. gv
    Member

    @shahzad,

    i am not claiming that islam prohibits anyone from earning money.. i am claiming that there are great similarities between capitalism and islamic finance..

    if you read carefully i think i've answered your statement on the prohibition of usury above

    @jj

    lets make this simple.. in an typical interest based economy, when you apply for a mortgage you are essentially applying to utilise somebody elses capital (in this case a bank) for your property purchase.

    Since us humans are selfish creatures no one is going to give/lend you that money for free so a bank first ensures you can put sufficient collateral (in this case the house that you are purchasing) and then lends to you at the prevailing interest rate in order to gain a profit on this transaction..

    in the example above the islamic mortgage provider also seeks to make a profit on what is essentially a lending transaction (they assess the credit worthiness of the 'buyer' and then seek collateral from the buyer) but it is legally transacted as an equity purchase which is then 'sold' to the property buyer at a profit..

    now please explain to me why the latter transaction is morally superior or more efficient than the prior example?

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 11:52 #
  17. amin1924
    member

    One is usury and other is not.

    In one case one gives you capital and earns back more capital, in other case one gives a a material that he owns and sells for profit.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:05 #
  18. gv
    Member

    that my friend is semantics

    'profit' is the earning of 'more capital'

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:06 #
  19. amin1924
    member

    no, not semantics.

    reality is different in two cases.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:08 #
  20. gv
    Member

    how so?

    in the above case a buyer selects a property for sale on the open market and approaches a mortgage provider for assistance . The mortgage provider structures the purchase of the property as such that

    1) The mortgage provider purchases the house at market price and title is transferred to the mortgage provider

    2) the buyer is given possession of the property after agreeing to provide sufficient collateral and pay the bank the market price PLUS a predetermined amount (profit) over a given period of time after which title to the property is transferred back to the buyer

    3) in the event of default the mortgage provider repossesses the property along with any stipulated collateral in order to recover their investment

    in an interest bearing economy the same process takes place except the transaction is structured as follows:

    1) The mortgage provider provides the buyer with the required capital to purchase the house at market price provided

    a) the buyer pays a deposit amount and agrees to repay the market price + a predetermined amount (interest) over a fixed period of time

    b) the market value of the property provides the mortgage provider with sufficient collateral in terms of the debt to equity ratio of the buyer

    c) the mortgage provider is given a lien on the property which enables them to possess the property in the event of default and recover their investment..

    in my opinion the only way that transaction would be morally superior would be as follows

    i own a property - someone i know wishes to buy that property - i allow them to take possession of the property (still owned by me) but to pay me the current market price in installments... i.e. i am not charging an additonal profit

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:21 #
  21. amin1924
    member

    profit is not an issue, neither are installments.

    change of entity/object is one factor.

    one can not transact same object in return for more of same object.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:26 #
  22. gv
    Member

    that doesn't sound like a very workable notion in terms of fiat money

    so that's exactly why i think that modern islamic finance semantically attempts to reconstruct interest as equity

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:33 #
  23. amin1924
    member

    People during the time of Prophet Muhammad PBUH used to argue and debate on why usury is not allowed, they used to say that it is also trade etc

    But the ruling came was very simple and straightforward -Trade is allowed while usury is forbidden.

    There are further a lot of details, but i don't want to go into this debate of what is usury and what is difference between trade & usury. This is another study and another debate.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:38 #
  24. gv
    Member

    why is it another debate?? its obviously quite relevant to the topic at hand...

    i have clearly differentiated between usury and interest.. it is well recorded that in the neo classical levant, money lenders charged exorbitant and unrealistic rates to desperate borrowers in an attempt to structure a win win transaction for the lender.. islam's injunction against usury was a reaction to an unfair practice...

    Therefore an islamic economy is for all sense and purposes a competitive pro market economy which provides for the basic welfare and protection of its economic actors (zakat, Anti usury)

    A rational/affordable/competitive interest rate is not detrimental to the welfare of actors in a market econonmy while usury is detrimental ergo islam should not have a problem with a rational interest rate..

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:46 #
  25. zia m
    Member

    There are currently only two systems.Market based system is capitalism and state based system is socialism.
    US problem arose from extreme deregulation of the system.
    China has adopted capitalism with strict regulations and are very succesful.Muslims can do the same and name it whatever they like.
    Services such as postal service,transportation and health care can be better carried out by the state.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:54 #
  26. Only a well balanced blend of Capitalism, Socialism and Regional Ethnic guidance would be a practical and acceptable Economic System of the future.
    Principles of Economic keep on changing and re-shaping in proportion to the changing needs of society.
    China compromised to cut the fabric of Communism into Socialism to achieve a smooth pace of development.

    It should not be ignored that it is the fuel pump of "Rule Of Law' which makes a System run better.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:55 #
  27. amin1924
    member

    gv,

    debate isn't about determining an appropriate amount of interest, it is more about transacting entities and their role.

    usury/interest is prohibited and that is not all.

    there are also differences in ownership rights, intellectual rights, morality etc

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 12:59 #
  28. amin1924
    member

    zia,

    correct, there are three models available for study, two are implemented and third was implemented.

    one gives total freedom to human while other gives total control to center while only Islam gives balanced ownership rights

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:00 #
  29. amin1924
    member

    sheikh sb,

    there is no such thing as blend of capitalism/socialism. there are contradictions in basic principles.

    one has to choose a basic framework to work with and then rest of things are build on top of it.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:02 #
  30. shahzad1924
    member

    @gv - "islam's injunction against usury was a reaction to an unfair practice..."

    none of Islam's injunctions are a mere "reaction"! the shariah is from divine revelation and in this case it prohibited interest in all its forms; whether exploitative or not.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:09 #
  31. shahzad1924
    member

    @gv - "A rational/affordable/competitive interest rate is not detrimental to the welfare of actors in a market econonmy while usury is detrimental ergo islam should not have a problem with a rational interest rate.."

    who determines what is detrimental and what is not? if its the human, then it is prone to error. and when there is already a divine ruling on this issue, there is no need for further discussion.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:11 #
  32. gv
    Member

    @shahzad

    i think we have discussed this before why is it so difficult to comprehend that all islamic rulings/law etc are the result of HUMAN interpretation...

    The human element is always present in the formulation of any legal code whether its divinely inspired or not..

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:19 #
  33. gv
    Member

    @jj

    correction: islam is a blend of capitalism and socialism..

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:21 #
  34. amin1924
    member

    are you sure :-)

    you mean to say that capitalism has some seemingly aspects from Islam and so does socialism?

    then you going to debate that mouse and lion are same!!

    I can logically prove that too ;-)

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:25 #
  35. We see a well balanced blend of socialism an Capitalism emerging in china.
    The negation to the personal ownership as defined by communism has been modified and the realistic part of Capitalism has been accepted.
    Chinese leader Mao established three stages to progress:
    First Proirity:
    Reconstruction of the Basic Infra Structure of China
    Second Priority:
    Industrialization of China
    Third Mode of Action:
    Attempts to capture the World Market.
    It was not possible to isolate the philosophy of Socialism completely in order to enhance these greater objectives.
    ****************
    A photocopy of 6th Century Plan cannot be pasted upon the map of 21st Century, without doing required amendments and adjustments.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:29 #
  36. gv
    Member

    @jj

    fine your statement is more accurate - that since islam came first... capitalism and socialism both share islamic economic aspects

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:31 #
  37. amin1924
    member

    Regarding:

    A photocopy of 6th Century Plan cannot be pasted upon the map of 21st Century, without doing required amendments and adjustments.

    We are seeing photocopies of even older plans in action, why not object to that?

    Believing Muslims follow the rules/regulations revealed to Prophet Muhammad PBUH -period.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:32 #
  38. zia m
    Member

    JS
    You are right.Society is much more complex than it used to be.We have to reform and adopt a system to suit our needs.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:38 #
  39. amin1924
    member

    True color and motives are spilling out :-)

    Let us talk about the subject -plz.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 13:42 #
  40. shahzad1924
    member

    @gv - "i think we have discussed this before..."

    yes, we have discussed but we haven't agreed.

    human element is only present in issues where there is a shari'i illah.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Nov 2009 14:04 #

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