PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

Living a lie....................

(28 posts)
  1. The domestic dimension

    At the root of most of our real and imagined problems lies the fact that we have been living a lie since the death of Jinnah, thanks to our ruling elite.

    That has impacted on our perceptions and problems over the years as one lie after another was generated, both on the domestic and external fronts. The impact of living a lie can be felt across the board now, reflecting an insecure and fear-ridden mindset that is unable to take bold, innovative policy measures.

    One of the most damaging lies we have been living, especially since the Zia dictatorship is the selective denial of Jinnah's legacy. In the theocrat's efforts to make Pakistan into an "Islamic" state - from what, one has never really been clearly told - the vision of Pakistan that the founder of the nation had has gradually all but vanished completely.

    At a time when the government is trying to restructure the polity, recalling Jinnah's vision in its entirety, and not in distorted selectivity, is critical if we are to rise above the malaise of polarisation and sectarianism that has pervaded our civil society today. Because we have allowed ourselves the luxury of oblivion on Jinnah, those with vested interests are now clamouring to get their notion of Pakistan enforced, and are only too ready to call into question the Muslim identity of anyone who opposes them. In the process, these people have managed to create a divisive and polarised society where the minorities are being pushed more and more into a peripheral existence within the state of Pakistan. And from amongst the Muslim majority, sectarianism has successfully divided the polity with the threat of being branded "unIslamic" constantly hanging above everyone's head.

    Yet, Jinnah's address to the Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947 is as clear an enunciation of the foundation of Pakistan as one can hope to get. As Jinnah told the new nation:

    "You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the State ... We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State."

    In other words, politically there was going to be no distinction or discrimination between any citizen because of his/her caste, creed or colour. Politically, all citizens were equal - a point Jinnah elaborated upon in the same speech:

    "... you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State."

    There was no "grey zone" on this count for Jinnah and there must not be one now for the present leadership. Too much hatred has stacked up because of a denial of resoluteness on this count. When the state creates political laws, including electoral laws, where citizens are discriminated against on the basis of their religion then that is a substantive move away from the Quaid's vision of Pakistan. And the imposition of separate electorates is one such impingement on the rights of the non-Muslims of Pakistan.
    So why is the vision of Jinnah so critical even today?

    Because it is the basis for our nation's existence. The Muslims of India followed Jinnah to independence and the very foundations of the state must not be allowed to be destroyed. It is time we really examined whether Jinnah's Pakistan was a state for the Muslims of India - where they would be free to live and practice their way of life - or whether it was intended to be a theocratic state. When Jinnah himself was asked this point, this is how he commented in a press conference in Delhi, on June 13, 1947:

    "Q: Will Pakistan be a secular or a theocratic state?

    "Mr Jinnah: You are asking me a question that is absurd. I do not know what a theocratic state means.

    "A correspondent suggested that a theocratic state meant a state where only people of a particular religion, for example Muslims, could be full citizens and non-Muslims would not be full citizens.

    "Mr Jinnah: Then it seems to me that what I have already said is like throwing water on duck's back. (Laughter) For goodness sake, get out of your head the nonsense that is being talked about. What this theocratic state means I do not understand.

    "Another correspondent suggested that the questioner meant a state run by Maulanas.

    "Mr Jinnah: What about the Government run by Pundits in Hindustan? (laughter) When you talk of democracy, Mr Jinnah went on, I am afraid you have not studied Islam. We learned democracy thirteen centuries ago."

    So Jinnah acknowledges the underlying supremacy of Islam within the ideal of Pakistan but not in the distorted form of a theocratic state where non-Muslims are discriminated against and sidelined from the mainstream.

    In his introduction to Volume II of the First Series of Jinnah Papers, the editor, Z H Zaidi, states that Jinnah clearly felt that the government of the new state of Pakistan would, as Jinnah put it "function with the will and sanction of the entire body of people in Pakistan, irrespective of caste, creed or colour."

    According to Zaidi, "Jinnah vehemently disclaimed that the future State of Pakistan would be a 'theocracy'; far from it! He in fact declared that there was no room for theocracy, i.e. rule by religious divines. In his public speeches and statements, Jinnah did not leave a shred of doubt that the new State would not be run by an obscurantist religious leadership."

    For Jinnah modern democracy was, according to Zaidi, "in essence a rediscovery of the old democratic tradition of Islam. ..."

    One reason why we are able to be selective about Jinnah's legacy is because we are living another critical lie in the form of constant distortions of our history. Whenever governments change, so does the country's recorded history. Worse still, we as a nation have been extremely selective about owning up to our pre-1947 historical and cultural heritage. Being unable to come to term with all the varied influences of our past, we have been unable to come to term with the realities of the Pakistani state and its ruling elite over the decades. Every government seeks to rewrite the history books. And national traumas are glossed over - see what you can find on 1971 and the crisis in East Pakistan. And see whether anyone talks of the impact of the 1965 war in nurturing the seeds of Bengali nationalism?

    But that was a major historical turning point. Our ruling elite cannot even tolerate the realities relating to past governments and political leaders - so the history books are constantly rewritten and our children grow up on lies. Lies breed an insecure nation - for confidence comes from being able to face the truth, no matter how unpleasant for in that confrontation we learn our lessons. Which is why it is not surprising to find mistakes continuously repeated by us as a nation.

    Today we continue to be burdened by the habitual deception and lies that are the endemic to our ruling elite. There is a lack of courage to concede errors - be they historical or present in context. That is why we are easy prey for our enemies who are able to exaggerate our defeats and undermine our victories. Take the case of Bangladesh. One reason the Indians and other antagonists have continued to harp on the demise of the Two-Nation theory post-1971 is because we as a nation have failed to examine what led to the political crisis, which eventually emboldened India to aggress militarily in East Pakistan. Instead, we have tried to obliterate this momentous turning point in our history as far as we can. Our younger generations know nothing of the national trauma we suffered, so they cannot comprehend the tragedy of the Biharis and the unjust manner in which Pakistan's ruling elite continues to ignore the plight of these dedicated Pakistani nationalists.

    Worse still, because we refuse to own up to the crisis and have a national catharsis we are not able to assertively refute Indian claims regarding the demise of the Two-Nation theory. Yet, the reality is that the creation of Bangladesh is a reaffirmation of the Two-Nation theory - otherwise East Pakistan would have become a part of Indian Bengal rather than an independent Muslim state. But this point can only be argued once we have the national confidence to accept our shortcomings that allowed for the loss of East Pakistan.

    Closer to the present, Kargil again reflects the ruling elite's penchant for living a lie because the truth requires more courage. As a result, India has been able to turn a military disaster into a political and diplomatic victory. And we continue to keep a strange silence on it while elements within Pakistan actually refer to "the Kargil fiasco". Well, Kargil was certainly a political fiasco because the political leadership, lacking the strength to own up to the event, turned a military success into a political and diplomatic disaster. Fearful and unable to shake off the US-centric mindset, the dash to Washington was the last step in undermining the military success. Kargil, in fact, links up with the external dimension of our ruling elite's living a lie syndrome — which has had terrible consequences for this nation in terms of its external policies.

    External policy dimension
    Pakistan has lost out - and continues to lose out - on innovative opportunities in terms of external policy options because its ruling elite cannot rid itself of living the lie of the continuing need for a US-centric approach to foreign policy. This dependency, both diplomatic and psychological, on the US has been the singular factor in our inability to project a holistic nationalist foreign policy. We flirt with a nationalist approach now and then, but we cannot wean ourselves away from the psychological dependency on US approval of our actions. The costs of this dependency have been tremendous for Pakistan, while the benefits have been limited at best.

    Historical summation
    Our need for military hardware notwithstanding, moving very early on into the US Cold War alliance system made us a pariah not only within the emerging Non-Aligned Movement but also within important centres of the Muslim World. So while our leadership furthered the myth of Pakistan's close links to the Muslim World, the reality was that we were working against the interests of important Muslim states and this became overt during the Suez crisis when the Pakistan government openly sided with France and Britain and against the nationalist regime of Nasser. The Egyptians never forgave us for this and even as late as the eighties, this scribe could sense the hostility towards Pakistan in Egypt.

    Of course, the CENTO and SEATO alliances compelled our ruling elite to further yet another lie - which was that the alliance members would come to our assistance against Indian aggression. Not only was this clearly not the case, the Pakistanis had been informed of this repeatedly in precise terms. Apart from the foreclosure of options and distortions in our priorities that these alliance commitments led to for Pakistan, the lie of protection against India was to have a deep impact when it was exposed during the 1965 war and more fully during and after the 1971 crisis. That the lie lasted as long is surprising given that the US and Britain pumped vast amounts of economic and military assistance into India as a result of the 1962 Sino-Indian conflict.

    However, even when the lie was exposed, the ruling elite in Pakistan hankered after a close re-alliance with the US because it was convinced that Pakistan had few other options! Hence, when the opportunity offered itself with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the ruling elite of the time jumped on the US bandwagon - despite the US sanctions already being put in place against Pakistan's nuclear development. The Afghan crisis once again bolstered the lie that there was a confluence of Pak-US interests in the region. With the departure of the Soviets from Afghanistan, the divergence of US-Pakistan interests was continuously being exposed but our ruling elite continued to live the lie of a convergence of interests so that we tended to push forward an Afghan policy jointly authored by Islamabad and Washington. It is with the withdrawal of US support for the Taliban and Pakistan's continuing support and linkages with them that has finally delinked Pakistan's Afghan policy from the "made-in-Washington" stamp.

    The present
    On Afghanistan: With a totally indigenous Taliban policy, Pakistan has developed a psyche of fear because we continue to live the lie that without US support we are doomed! Hence our almost hysterical pronouncements denying our having any substantive influence over the Taliban! This is absurd. We should accept that we do have influence with the Taliban but that does not imply we will use it to seek implementation of US objectives. After all, why should we? How would it serve our long-term interests to once again seek implementation of US goals in Afghanistan? The answer to all these questions is in the negative and worse still, if we again dilute our nationalist Afghan policy we will lose our advantage in Afghanistan once the Taliban increase their interaction with the international comity of states - which they will do increasingly. Our present policy - which unfortunately seems to be falling prey to the ruling elite's insecurities in relation to the US - of asking the US to deal directly with the Taliban over Osama is correct: Not because we do not have influence with the Taliban but because we must not use that influence to further a third party's interests.

    On Bangladesh: At a time when Pakistan can build subgroupings within SAARC in an effort to expose Indian designs, we have been unable to exploit opportunities in countries like Bangladesh. A major stumbling block is our refusal to accept the political realities that led to the development of Bengali nationalism. It is time we had a national catharsis on 1971 so that we can put the past behind us and take up the new alliance options that prevail with Bangladesh. A beginning needs to be made with the release of the Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report. The state of Pakistan should have the self-confidence and resilience to face the truth and learn from it - and educate future generations so that they do not fall into the same traps. Of course, if we are able to achieve this, then we can also hope the Bengalis will do likewise. The next step is to accept the Pakistanis stranded for decades in Bangladesh. It should never have been a matter of choice for Pakistani governments since every Pakistani has the right to be in his homeland. Denial of this reality is once again symptomatic of the "living-a-lie" syndrome, which has been so damaging for the nation.

    On Kashmir: Because we are fearful of acting proactively on issues where we know the US will disapprove, we continue to live a lie that we are only aiding the Kashmiris politically and diplomatically. We should accept the reality that we are a party to the Kashmir dispute and that we have every legal, moral and political right to aid the Kashmiri struggle for self-determination materially. It is a struggle that has international backing in the form of UN resolutions and since India has been and continues to be adamant in contravening international obligations, then the Kashmiris have had no choice but to use military means to rid themselves of Indian occupation and achieve their right to self-determination. In that struggle Pakistan must lend active support. It is time we faced the world squarely on this score. After all, we are not intervening to overthrow an elected government as the US did against the Sandinista government in Nicaragua; we are party to the Kashmir dispute and are within international and national obligations to assist the Kashmiris in their struggle against Indian occupation any way we are able to.
    Also, contrary to what the US and India would have use believe, India is the one in dire straits in Kashmir and it is India that is running out of time and options - hence its reluctant recognition of the APHC. Occupation entanglements against a determined and fighting people undermine even the most professional military's strength and well being - as witnessed by the hasty withdrawal of the Israelis from South Lebanon.

    On the USA: The Clinton visit to South Asia should have ended the myth of a special US-Pakistan relationship. But for some reason the psyche of some within our ruling elite makes it difficult for them to accept this point. It is as if without this belief, they will lose their moorings. That is why we are embracing all the Americans rushing to Pakistan - which in itself is strange given that the US is propagating the lie that Pakistan is isolated because it is not supporting a US agenda for this region! Not just that - members of our ruling elite are rushing to Washington to offer all manner of explanations and sops. Worse still, our panic and refusal to accept the ground realities in relation to the US saw us blunder into the farce of a Human Rights Convention aimed solely at a foreign audience but with a damaging fallout internally.
    It is time to stop living this dangerous lie of the necessity to have a close link with the US. We do not have to antagonise them unnecessarily, but we must keep a distance from them.

    We need to give ourselves space. And we will not come asunder, nor will we be isolated, because the US does not have an intimacy with us. Far from it. US interests demand that they keep their linkages with a nuclear Pakistan - so let the US work on building these linkages keeping Pakistan's interests in mind.

    We have other options that need to be explored, but unless we can develop a national self-confidence we will never be able to take bold initiatives. For that to happen we need to first stop living lies.

    Dr SHIREEN M MAZARI
    http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/aug/living-lie.htm

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 9:00 #
  2. Anwer Kamal
    Member

    It is very good article.
    And we can get 50% of it in a next free and fair election if it happens but there is only one term.Army should stop interfering and promoting its puppets and puppies.

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 9:34 #
  3. scandinavian
    Member

    A very good and thought provoking article. We MUST learn to face the real problems instead hiding the head in the sand. Well done Shireen Mazari. You are more brave than most men in Pakistan!

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 10:25 #
  4. Anwer Kamal
    Member

    Our women are really more brave.

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 10:52 #
  5. Not Possible
    Blocked

    Rubbish she is a kafira

    This is
    al bidati
    wal shirki,
    wal ****,
    wal kufari

    we should

    al jihadi

    This is
    wal fitnati
    wel harmi
    wal kufari
    wal jihadi,
    al kullay wajeib
    kufaray wajeib
    al ****
    wal bidati
    wal kufari
    wal shirki

    She speaks of a secular state astagfirullah,
    Astagfirullah!!!!

    wal biddah..biddah BIDDAH!

    Pakistan was mean to be a throratical state!!! A Khilafah Yazeedi Khiafah

    Raping drinking ayashi fashi badmashi

    The true Muslim Pakistani State would kill the Rasool nawzobiallah if he came again not just his family and feel proud of our deeds, As Yazeed was the fateh of Qustontonia

    Quraid Azam was a Jihadi from the House of Alay Saud and if he said all of the above then

    Ya Akhee!!
    Ya AKhee!!
    YA Akhee!!

    his throat should be chooped up and his musoleoum should be blown up

    he said lets have
    wal kufari
    wal bidati
    wal kitali

    and he said kill all minoties including me as I am a minority

    to slaughter to slaughter to slaughter

    wal kufari wal biddati wal harmi wal shirki wal jiahdi, wajeib kullay wajeib

    Biddah, Shirk, Biddah, Shirk,
    Biddah, Shirk, Biddah, Shirk,
    Shirk, Shirk, Haram, Shirk, Kufar, Shirk, Jihad, Shirk,
    Qital, Shirk, Jihad, Shirk,
    Biddah, Fitna, Biddah, Fitna
    Shayouk Shayouk

    Al Wajeib, Kullay Wajeib, Ya AKhee...Ya Akhee

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 11:18 #
  6. @Not Possible
    Myself and others would love to have a response that suits an intellectual, when it comes from you!
    Have you abandoned all sanity and resorted to post gibberish here, not on this but on some other threads as well?

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 11:30 #
  7. Listen brother not possible. All will be possible if you do not regain senses and behave as 'an honorary member'.
    Get it soon brother!

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 11:33 #
  8. khan_gee007
    Member

    In our society we normally follow the pattern, it's very difficult to go against the pattern presented by media, Ms Shireen Mazari also victim of this pattern, see whats going on in the media:

    1. Speak against ZIA, spent energies to prove him traitor, so new generation will hat him and all of his actions. On other side promote Bhutto as Hero, try to always hide his mistakes or gaps in his personality. They even forgot that Zia just continue what has been started by Bhutto which are:
    - Afghan Jihad policy (Naseerullah Babar initiated to support the Afghan Mujahid)Zia just continue it
    - Islamization started by Bhutto (ban on Alcohol, weekly holiday on Friday and declaring Qadiani as non-muslim)ZIA continue the process.
    If now everything is consequences of Zia's actions, Bhutto also equally responsible for that.
    2. Everybody try to prove that Zia's government was an Islamic Government, at that time Pakistan was an islamic state, so every action taken by Zia was an Islamic action. Which totally wrong, even Zia blur the image of Islam on the name of Islam.
    3. Everybody talking about Secularism (Fazail-e- Secularism), so Ms Shereen mazari also talked about it. She forgot the slogan on which Pakisan Movement Based "Pakistan ka Matlub Kia LAILA HA ILLALAH", Muslims gathered only on this slogan.
    4. Everybody is trying to prove that under Islamic state there are lot of restriction on Non-Muslim, but in actual non-muslim can live freely in am Islamic State and practice their religion. Ms Shereen Mazari also tried to prove that, but she forgot the history of Islamic Era even when system of Islamic states changed from Khalafat to Malukiat, best example of tolerance for other religion you can choose from Islamic history rather than Christian's treatment for Jews.

    I have few questions here:

    1. If Jinnah's intention was to make Pakistan a secular Pakistan base state, was there any need to struggle for separate state? India is the largest secular state in the world, why Mr. Jinnah struggled for one state along the Gandhi & Nehru?
    2. What was "Two Nations Theory"? still part of our school college books, luckily not introduced by Zia, existed before him.
    3. What was the "Qrardad-e- Maqasid" Lie with nation from the companion of Mr. JInnah? Who opposed "Qrardad-e- Maqasid" at that time?
    4. Which saying is more important from Mr. Jinnah's or ALLAH'S? In Quran Allah described the rules for governments, for economy, for defense, for society with more focus than religious rituals. All those are useless?
    (We need to leave the Munafqat here, and need to declare where we are with ISLAM or Secularism. There is no Islamic Secularism or Islamic Socialism or Islamic Communism, it's only Islamism no matter we like it or not, it support our wishes or not)

    Finally in my opinion this is only a try to divert the attention from real causes which are:
    - We forgot our religion and history, we don't know who we are? which thing has more preference (Our religion, our country, our province, our district, our family & tribe etc.)
    - We asked Allah to give us country where we will live according to the instruction given by Allah & his Prophet (SAW, when we got country we forgot them, now Allah forget us.
    - Feudal system (because she belongs to feudal family)
    - Incompetent bureaucracy (her father was bureaucrat"Ashiq Mohammad Khan Mazari")
    - Corrupt & Faulty political system (her father was politician as well)
    - Education System (18 Education systems in country, what will be the outcomes you can imagine)

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 12:32 #
  9. Not Possible
    Blocked

    SE

    Aur Aqas are the Saudi Gods we belong and are owned by our Wahabi Salafi masters

    they own us,

    They are our Gods

    TO them is Sajda wajeib, kullay wajeib

    otherwise we are kayifirs and kayfiras

    and our heads should be choped off

    why is this jibbarish? Isnt this the truth?? :P

    Get my point??

    I get yours ;)

    Ok let me deal with our Salafi Khan Sahab here. who has come with the same things I was expressing

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 12:56 #
  10. ali-pk
    Member

    The Quaid while addressing the Bar Association of Karachi on the Holy Prophet’s birthday on 25th January 1948, said:

    “Islamic principles today are as applicable to life as they were 1300 years ago….Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. Islam has taught equality, justice and fair play for every body……..let us make it (the future Constitution of Pakistan). The Prophet was a great teacher. He was a great lawgiver. He was a great statesman and he was great sovereign who ruled.”

    The Holy Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon Him) was successful in everything that he put his hand to from businessman to ruler. He was the greatest man that the world has ever seen. Thirteen hundred years ago he laid the foundations of democracy. With regard to the form of government in Pakistan, the Quaid said:

    “It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of contract set for us by our own great lawgiver, the Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundation of our democracy on the basis of truly Islamic ideas and principles. Our Almighty has taught us that discussions and consultations shall guide our decisions in the affairs of state.”

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 12:59 #
  11. Not Possible
    Blocked

    ============================================================
    In our society we normally follow the pattern, it's very difficult to go against the pattern presented by media, Ms Shireen Mazari also victim of this pattern,
    ============================================================
    No Khan Sahab the pattern that we followed and doomed us was Marday Momin Marday Haq Ziaul Haq...that was the dangerous pattern and no condemnation of Zia can ever be enough for what he did to this country

    ============================================================
    She forgot the slogan on which Pakisan Movement Based "Pakistan ka Matlub Kia LAILA HA ILLALAH", Muslims gathered only on this slogan.
    ============================================================

    That was jingosim by your zamedars and waderas who decided to join muslim league only when India decide to abolish landlordhip and also history being re witten by the Jamatis who initially did not favor creation of Pakistan

    ============================================================
    but in actual non-muslim can live freely in am Islamic State and practice their religion....even when system of Islamic states changed from Khalafat to Malukiat, best example of tolerance for other religion you can choose from Islamic history rather than Christian's treatment for Jews.
    ============================================================

    really?? but our Jihadi brothers want to kill all minorities, or have you been sleeping the past 30 years? and the fact that muslims were better is true, but that dosent mean they were good either

    ============================================================
    1. If Jinnah's intention was to make Pakistan a secular Pakistan base state, was there any need to struggle for separate state? India is the largest secular state in the world, why Mr. Jinnah struggled for one state along the Gandhi & Nehru?
    ============================================================

    India is a secular state now wasnt then, and besides Quaid wanted a state secular for real not just a say so.

    ============================================================
    2. What was "Two Nations Theory"? still part of our school college books, luckily not introduced by Zia, existed before him.
    ============================================================
    Ms Mazari has touched upon this point please read her article thouroughly

    ============================================================
    3. What was the "Qrardad-e- Maqasid" Lie with nation from the companion of Mr. JInnah? Who opposed "Qrardad-e- Maqasid" at that time?
    ============================================================
    Again a Jamti by product Quaid has no inclination for anything of the sort

    ============================================================
    4. Which saying is more important from Mr. Jinnah's or ALLAH'S? In Quran Allah described the rules for governments, for economy, for defense, for society with more focus than religious rituals. All those are useless?
    ============================================================
    We are all belivers in Allah and so was the Quaid and his vision for Pakistan is fully compatible with the priciples of ISlam and Allah, where tolerance and equality are one of the formost guding priciples

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 13:12 #
  12. Not Possible
    Blocked

    “Islamic principles today are as applicable to life as they were 1300 years ago….Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. Islam has taught equality, justice and fair play for every body……..let us make it (the future Constitution of Pakistan). The Prophet was a great teacher. He was a great lawgiver. He was a great statesman and he was great sovereign who ruled.”

    Totally agree withe the above, but the rules must be the pure ones not tainted by Lust for power or selfish motives

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 13:13 #
  13. ali-pk
    Member

    Jinnah's Presidential Address to the Constituent Assembly in no way depicted Jinnah's vision of a secular Pakistan as claimed by the seculars- On the contrary, this speech was in line with Islamic principles, the inability on the part of seculars to understand the difference between an Islamic state & a theocratic state has lead to the propaganda of Secular Pakistan as for this class Islam= Theocracy which in reality is not the case.

    Just like today, in those days also some people started doing propaganda on the basis of this speech- Jinnah couldn't understand this people and so is the case today as we also don't understand this section---

    January, 1948, at a reception on the occasion of the Holy Prophet’s birth anniversary:

    M.A. Jinnah said that “he could not understand a section of the people who deliberately wanted to create mischief and made propaganda that the Constitution of Pakistan would not be made on the basis of Shariat….” The Governor-General of Pakistan said that he would like to tell those who are misled – “Some are misled by propaganda” – that not only the Muslims but also the non-Muslims having nothing to fear.

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:14 #
  14. Not Possible
    Blocked

    alipk

    where did you get this from

    M.A. Jinnah said that “he could not understand a section of the people who deliberately wanted to create mischief and made propaganda that the Constitution of Pakistan would not be made on the basis of Shariat….” The Governor-General of Pakistan said that he would like to tell those who are misled – “Some are misled by propaganda” – that not only the Muslims but also the non-Muslims having nothing to fear.

    what you posted before was ok but Quraid never said this

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:21 #
  15. ali-pk
    Member

    As i said above, Jinnah's speech was in line with Islamic principles and there's nothing secular about it- Secularism has got to do with the separation of Religion from State and Jinnah was against this separation.

    The relevant portion of the treaty with non-muslims of Jerusalem by Claiph Umar Ra'- (what Jinnah said is not a secular concept)

    "The protection is for their lives and properties, their churches and crosses, their sick and healthy and for all their co-religionists. Their churches shall not be used for habitation, nor shall they be demolished, nor shall any injury be done to them or to their compounds, or to their crosses, nor shall their properties be injured in anyway. There shall be no compulsion on them in the matter of religion, or shall any of them suffer any injury on account of religion."

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:23 #
  16. ali-pk
    Member

    @not possible

    if in Lahore, i will give you party if Jinnah didn't said these words-

    i have a good habit of reading books which has become an alien concept even amongst the educated class.

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:26 #
  17. Not Possible
    Blocked

    ali-pk you are creating fabrications like what Bannu Ummaya and Bannu Abbas did

    Quaid never said any of this wheras the address that Quaid gave at the constituent assmbly is known to all

    we are not living in the dark ages or a dictatorial malokiat that we dont know the truth

    That you decide to write a few lines yourself and then pass it off as the truth.

    This is the 21st century and you cant forge lies

    Besides that address of the constituent assembly is in line with Islam.Completly

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:32 #
  18. ali-pk
    Member

    "Fundamentally, in an Islamic state, all authority rests with Allah, the Almighty. The government business is conducted according to the entire Quranic principle and injunctions. Neither a head, nor a parliament, nor an individual, nor an institution can act absolutely in any matter. Only the Quranic injunction control our behaviour in society and politics. In other words the rule of Islamic democracy is indeed the rule of Shariat laws"

    Rahbar-Daccan, August 19, 1941: Ahamd Saeed, Guftar-i-Quaid-i-Azam, (Islamabad, Historical and Cultural Research, 1976), pp. 261-62.

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:33 #
  19. Not Possible
    Blocked

    ali-pk

    secularisim is a distorted subset of a mere facet of Islam

    secularism is a limited worldly concept created and altered by humans

    Islam is all comprhensive, it is free of world codes as it is the code of Allah, it may overlap with certain of mans codes but it is not limited to such usless and limited notions

    Islam is Submission to will of Allah the Eman

    it is not submitting your will onto others by force and coercion, it is the exact opposite as it is the flag bearer of choice and free will which makes humans ashraful makhloqat

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:35 #
  20. Not Possible
    Blocked

    and I agree there is nothing wrong with this

    "Fundamentally, in an Islamic state, all authority rests with Allah, the Almighty. The government business is conducted according to the entire Quranic principle and injunctions. Neither a head, nor a parliament, nor an individual, nor an institution can act absolutely in any matter. Only the Quranic injunction control our behaviour in society and politics.

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:36 #
  21. khan_gee007
    Member

    An article on same issue from Dr. Safdar Mehmood

    http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/dec2010-daily/25-12-2010/col2.htm

    It's clear that Mr. Jinnah intention was to make Pakistan Democratic Country on the basis Islamic Principles. What does it mean? Any state basis on Islamic principles called Islamic State not secular state. In secular state you have to denounced the religion, you can't make the law on the basis of religion.

    We also need to differentiate the "Theocracy" and concept of "Islamic State", it's not compulsory that Islamic State led by Religious leader (Moulvi), anybody who has the knowledge of Islam (doctor, engineer or from any profession) can be the head of Islamic state. There is no concept of Theocracy in Islam.

    @ Not Possible thank for your comments,

    1. I am not stopping anyone to criticize the Zia but don't use his name to cover the ugly face of other politician or to prove that his era was presenting Islam.
    2. I didn't know that jamaat was that much strong to change the whole history. Also influence the Muslim Leagis who were against them.
    3. Anybody killing non-muslim due to their beliefs not following the principles of Islam. It's very simple & clear, no Moulvi (not Jahil) will tell you to do this.
    4. I guess Congress declared India as secular state during the campaign to get freedom from British. In actual it's still not a real secular state (just a Big secular Drama), just see the state behavior on Babri mosque & Gujrat massacre, you will understand.
    5. OK, two nation theory based on religion, Ms Shereen favor the two nation theory........ two nation theory saying that "Hindu & muslim are two different nations and muslims are struggling for separate country to practice their religion independently" Mr Jinnah use two nations theory to convince British to have separate country for muslim. Now why we don't have objection on the name of Pakistan as "Islamic Republic of Pakistan", why don't we accept it as Islamic state? why we don't accept Islamic Law as the Law of Pakistan? Islamic Economics as the basis of Pakistan Economy ??? Now don't say Two Nations Theory also included by Jamaatis in the history...
    6. Qarardad e Maqasid presented by Moulana Shabir Usmani, was companion and supporter of Mr. Jinnah not by any Jamaaati. Also passed by Legislative Assembly at that time, again incorporated in constitution by Hazrat Moulana Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (please remember worst enemy of Jamaatis). It's the same pattern nowadays there are two good excuses for anybody ZIA & Jamaatis. They have their part in the situation but there are many others with big share.
    7. There is now fight if Mr. Jinnah's saying is according to Allah's saying. But if somebody's saying has contradiction with Allah's saying as believers of Allah we must reject other's saying.

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:39 #
  22. ali-pk
    Member

    @not possible

    if you agree with every Jinnah's speech, please tell us- is this country governed according to Islamic laws as visioned by Jinnah?

    When one accepts the authority/writ of an Islamic State- this simply means he is bowing before the supreme Allah Swt', how this in any way becomes force/coercion?

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:54 #
  23. ali-pk
    Member

    address to the Bar Association, Karachi on 25th January, 1948, Quaid-i-Azam said:

    "Thirteen hundred years ago he laid the foundation of democracy…The prophet was a great teacher. He was a great law giver. He was a great statesman and he was a great sovereign who ruled. No doubt, there are many people who do not quite appreciate when we talk of Islam. Islam is not only a set of rituals, traditions and spiritual doctrines. Islam is also a code for every Muslim which regulates his life and his conduct in even politics and economics and the like. It is based on the highest principles of honour, integrity, fair-play and justice for all. One God and the equality of man is one of the fundamental principles of Islam. In Islam there is no difference between man and man. The qualities of equality, liberty and fraternity are the fundamental principles of Islam"

    ...........................................

    if after reading this speech of Jinnah still someone say that Jinnah wanted a secular/liberal Pakistan or he didn't believed in the role of religion in Politics- i would start doubting his mental health.

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 14:59 #
  24. Not Possible
    Blocked

    ali-pk

    I agree with what you said here too

    When one accepts the authority/writ of an Islamic State- this simply means he is bowing before the supreme Allah Swt', how this in any way becomes force/coercion

    but thats exactly what we do in Pakistan now.

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 15:30 #
  25. ali-pk
    Member

    @not possible

    Why the complaints when we don't have an Islamic state in the first place?

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 16:03 #
  26. Not Possible
    Blocked

    what complaints I am saying what your saying is happening even in todays Pakistan

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 16:08 #
  27. alirazaster
    Disabled upon Request

    there should be an islamic state
    but there should be no mullah state

    jis din loagon k in donon k beech ka farq pata chal jaye ga, pakistan ki battiyaan jalnay lagein gee

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 16:12 #
  28. Anwer Kamal
    Member

    We are living in lie.
    http://www.viewpointonline.net/tehreek-e-namoos-e-isi.html

    Posted 11 months ago on 11 Jun 2011 19:19 #

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