PKPolitics Discuss » Video Links

Muslim Community and British Politicians

(35 posts)
  1. Muslim Community and British Politicians

    Jim Fitzpatrick, a British minister criticized the segregation of male and female guests at Muslim wedding. Yet another 'Gaffe' from another jumped up, half-baked, ill-educated Labour ****; a former fireman indeed. He learned nothing about putting out fires rather than starting them. He actually has a GCSE 'D' in Politics? God Help us internationally if he is ever made a Diplomat. I suppose he left in a huff because there was no beer an' 'Am sandwiches at the buffet. The Minister's action is just a stupid, attention-getting stunt appealing to prejudices. This serves only to inflame the prejudices so widespread today. People have their customs, and you don't insult them. It hasn't been that long since our society had some public institutions that kept men and women separate. And it hasn't been that long since women in our society typically wore hats with veils. Plenty of Western customs, we accept as normal, are unacceptable or ridiculous to others.

    Muslim marriage is a religious ceremony. He insulted the bride and groom for his own political gain. They should not walk out because it would have been bad manners and rudeness to do so. They should respect the couple wishes, it’s their big day. He should have ascertained what the customs are beforehand, and then not attended if he thinks the practice offensive. One should have respect of others people's customs, even if one does not agree. Perhaps he should grow up and get an injection of reality. If you are not prepared to accept this then don't go or don't insult the bride and groom by walking out. What a disgusting small minded little man. Just shows the caliber of today's MP's from all parties. Well being a Labour politician his appalling ignorance of Islamic tradition plus downright rudeness to his hosts does not surprise me in the least. He should do his homework instead of ruining someone’s day. He is totally an ignorant person. If a Muslim wants to have separation at a wedding (like much of the Muslim world) then they should be allowed to, and don't insult them when they do. Jewish wedding has observed the tradition of separating of men & women at ceremonies, without raising any eyebrows. Men and women are separated in Masajid and Synagogues. Muslim secondary schools are also segregated.

    In the past another British Minister Jack Straw caused a similar furore when he referred to Muslim veils as “a visible statement of separation and difference” and called for women to remove them during surgeries in his Blackburn constituency. No one has the right to ban the freedom of choice in a secular and democratic country. The right to choice is a basic fundamental right the person should have. To veil or not to veil should be an individual choice. Dress codes are for children. Muslim women should be free to wear burqas. If women get Away with wearing cropped shirts and pants that show their panties, they should be able to wear burqas too.

    Globalisation is here to stay, Muslims are here to stay and so are other communities. Those idiot British ministers need to learn that the world is made up of different people and the British society and its Establishment need to learn to accept and tolerate every culture for what it is and most importantly respect and tolerate the values of each and every religion.
    Iftikhar Ahmad

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 18:56 #
  2. Most of these so called british Pakistani leaders have no educational or political background. I find most of them with an IQ of a 5 years old kid. Unless the new generation of Pakistanis (3rd generation Pakistanis) takes over, I would not expect ny change. (This is a very optimistic view as most of the 2nd generation pakistanis are ashamed to be linked to Pakistan....

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 22:32 #
  3. NNL
    member

    This is a very optimistic view as most of the 2nd generation pakistanis are ashamed to be linked to Pakistan....

    I guess the same is everywhere then Cos this is exactly whats happening in US too.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 22:34 #
  4. I have friends and family in US and Canada too and for them Pakistan is just a country from where they originated from and is a holiday spot to attend weddings, eat pakistani food, show off their $$$ and £££ and look down upon the Pakistanis. I was actually amazed to meet a Pakistani in NY who left Pakistan just 3 years ago and was telling me that Pakistan is too "unsafe and hot" to visit! LOL (he was born n bred for 33 years in karachi)

    I have no hopes from 3rd generation Pakistanis (exception is always there but I am talking about most of the Pakistanis) abroad... once pass this generation you will see a new breed of ABCD and BBCD...

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 22:45 #
  5. NNL
    member

    true

    yesterday i had the opportunity to play cricket with the boys in the community.

    Now all 25+ guys were playing cricket and those of the 2nd generation started playing football (american one)

    One of the things noticed was that those who played Football werent happy with the guys playing cricket.

    Cos this is not their sport of the country blah blah blah.

    after every one left one indian kid said i hate those kids i asked why ? its not good on their part not to play cricket. And i said cmon dont lose hope they are trying to assimilate. He said what assimilate they dont even are considered as friends by the goras so what are they trying to pull off over here.

    I was surprised by the Indian kid. Muslim Senior in high school on way to be a hafiz but Masha Allah has more sense than the rest of them .

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:00 #
  6. Khan_Sahib
    Welcome. We miss your presence at the forum.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:00 #
  7. zeshaan
    Member

    Khan sahib,
    wrote.

    I have no hopes from 3rd generation Pakistanis (exception is always there but I am talking about most of the Pakistanis) abroad... once pass this generation you will see a new breed of ABCD and BBCD...

    Well said Khan sahib,It is 100%true.
    Here in canada,Pakistan is a holiday destination for most pakistanies and thairs childrens.More than 90%of these pakistanies dont care about pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:02 #
  8. Thanks Mirza Sahib.. I have been a bit busy with my work and travelling. Inshallah, will be back in motion soon..
    :-)

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:09 #
  9. zjshami
    Member

    @ Khan Sahib,
    1. I know a number of Pakistanis who decided to resettle in their native birth place, Pakistan, but just after a stay for a few months, all their emotional nationalism and patriotism was evaporated just like an opened bottle of Soda.
    2. After looking at the social, political, moral and economic scenario, what the immigrants witness @ the Media, we should not blame those who managed for immigration.
    3. There should not be any heart burning where some of the Pakistanis succeeded to cross the tunnel with a hope for bright and better life for their future generations.
    4. Me, my husband and children would love to return to our town in Pakistan, provided we are convinced to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
    5. We are desperately looking for a single Pakistan TV channel, Newspaper or Talk Show to get a promising and encouraging news about our beloved Pakistan.
    (If you know one, please let me know @ the Pkpolitics.)

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:20 #
  10. Ahmad and NNL,
    It’s worrying and honestly, I won't blame any of these kids but their parents. You can still find kids who are more Pakistani then American/british/canadian as there parents took interest in their Pakistani brought up/education.
    Unfortunately (with apologies from any British on this forum) the first generation Pakistanis were brought to UK by the Gora Sahib as driver, Cook, maids or labor force. These people have worked really hard to earn bread n butter for their families but in that race of money they ignored the education of their kids. Very few families have uneducated parents and educated kids. In Health sector, you will find most of the Pakistani doctors working are actually Non resident Pakistanis rather then British born Pakistanis. I don’t think that anything can now change this trend. All you can work on is your own kids or Pakistani kids living in Pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:21 #
  11. NNL
    member

    yes thats another depressing point

    that Pakistani Doctors or engineers are either coming in from Pakistan in US or educated ni Pakistan and doing masters here while all the local population is acting more like the uneducated people.

    The will to succeed is gone and those Pakistanis who do actually make it to such uni are more trying to be Goras rather then be themselves.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:26 #
  12. @zjshami

    I am not criticizing any Pakistanis who have migrated abroad. I am criticizing every Pakistani who after moving out of Pakistan forgot their roots!

    Who cares about why any one left Pakistan? I am more concerned about the future generation. It will be a "Failure" on our part if we let our future generation drift away from their Pakistani roots.

    No one is asking anyone to move back to Pakistan but my point is the future of our generation.

    I have tried to move back to Pakistan too but due to the corruption, security issues, power break down and most important, the corruption in the health sector left me with no choice but to stay away for some more time but Inshallah at some stage I will return to Pakistan... Sooner then later but this time with proper preparation and after burning all my ships. :-)

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:28 #
  13. NNL
    member

    Yaar Khan Sahib

    have you seen those ads of the Indians promoting their own private clinics in US for the purposes of vacationing and treatment and includes all the perks of vacationing as well.

    If you remember Surgeon Rahman in Cardio Karachi i think he has opened such a facility in NWFP ( not sure)

    We need something like that more so that there is atleast some hope left.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:32 #
  14. Yes, He has established a good center in Hayatabad in Peshawar which is at par with any international hospital. Unfortunately he had his own heart fixed (bypass) few years ago so he has kindda taken a backseat. Most of the patients in his hospital are from Afghanistan as it’s the first Hospital after reaching the Afghan/Pak border (as there are none in Afghanistan for obvious reasons)

    Indians are very organized in whatever they do... We as Pakistani nation like Chaos... just like our army and Politicians... :)

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:38 #
  15. NNL
    member

    Yaar i was hoping that some of the good chap in US and UK build something like OMI and other good hospitals
    so that the care level is better in our country.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:41 #
  16. zjshami
    Member

    @ Khan Sahib,
    I agree.
    No doubt, it is a healthy and positive desire to motivate Pakistani families living overseas to keep the children within the premises of their basis cultural domain.

    It is not only true for Pakistanis living in the Western countries but also think about a majority of Pakistanis living in Pakistan who are more critical than the Immigrants.
    Each time I make a call to Pakistan, the party at the other end makes me more frustrated by telling about the same problems, you already mentioned at your post.
    What I feel the Pure and First Generation of Pakistan is getting more frustrated an angry, what to talk about the second or third one.
    If any hope, it would is the Fourth Generation who could make Pakistan a good living place. Inshallah.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:51 #
  17. I always say this and my elders used to scold me that Pakistan has reached to its present state by the generation of 50 to 60's cuz this is the generation who has no direct role in the formation of Pakistan but they were there to reap the benefit of a newly born country with lax rules.

    This generation (again, there are exception like always) has damaged Pakistan more then any enemy but the generation of 70 through 90's have a different attitude though again they have been poisoned by MQM,PPP,ANP,JI,PML,JUP,JUI and likes of other political and regional parties with ethnic and sectarian divide. But regardless, I have a greater hope from this generation.

    Posted 2 years ago on 05 Sep 2009 23:59 #
  18. NNL
    member

    True Khan Sahib

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Sep 2009 0:07 #
  19. msohail83
    Member

    UK is host to far bigger Pakistani community than the US, but if you monitor the traffic on this site you'll be surprised that twice as many people login from US as compared to UK.

    UK has 3 generations of Pakistanis including British-born, and during last 3 years 20K student visas were granted to Pakistanis.

    I fail to understand why there is a lack of interest among those people?

    On one hand we have people like Oriel (born and bred in UK) concerned about Pakistan more than the Pakistani borns and on the other hand we have folks who are totally oblivious of situation backhome, and don't spare any opportunity to bash Pakistan (I hate them).

    PS: salam and WB Khan sahib

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Sep 2009 4:55 #
  20. Khan Sahib:

    I think you missed the meaning of the initial post. The post is commenting on the idiocy and bullishness of a gora politician and his lack of understanding of segregation within the Islamic culture. The post was not commenting on Pakistani politicians in Britain or even British-born muslims of Pakistani origin.

    From the comments on the initial post and from the articles to which it is referring, one could say that British Muslims of Pakistani descent are veering more avidly towards their roots in Islam rather than their Pakistani roots.

    I personally have had many many interactions with my peer group (British muslims of Pak origin), since childhood. There is a fast-paced movement within the 3rd geberation in the UK that is actively rejecting the illogical, ignorant parts of both the Pakistani and British culture, in favour of the Islamic path (just the amount of Muslim youth choosing to wear the jilbab/headscarf as opposed to dupatta and shalwar kameez is the most obvious sign of this movement).

    With regards to your pessimism towards the 1st-3rd generations living here in the UK. I would respectfully suggest you know alot more about your own peer group than you do about the 1st-3rd generation of Pakistanis.

    It would be easy to get into a heated debate about who are the more capable: Pakistanis residing in Pak or their counterparts in Western countries. But that would be a futile exercise, much like "my mother is better than your mother".

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Sep 2009 17:57 #
  21. khurram Zaman
    Member

    KHAN Saib,
    JUI,JUP,JI has proved already that they dont believe on sect divisions.
    the formation of MMA was the proof where every one attended the NAMAZ behind rest of the Party.
    At govt level,ISI level,westerised media level their are sect division between Pakistani religious groups.
    We at ordinary Pakistani level should not include these religious groups into any sect divisions......

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Sep 2009 18:04 #
  22. K.Z has just entered the twighlight-zone!!!!!!!!

    post this information on the relevant thread!!!!!!!!

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Sep 2009 18:07 #
  23. khurram Zaman
    Member

    Oriel wrote,

    There is a fast-paced movement within the 3rd geberation in the UK that is actively rejecting the illogical, ignorant parts of both the Pakistani and British culture, in favour of the Islamic path .

    why not discuss some thing within pakistanis abt Islam that is Illogical or ignorant..
    behind such theories westren muslims can never get the true ISLAMIC symbols..
    The westren muslims practicality towards Islam is well known allaround,exceptions are their..

    Posted 2 years ago on 06 Sep 2009 18:12 #
  24. K.Z:

    rather than speaking in riddles, would you kindly clarify what you are trying to say in your post above?

    i am interested to know of your opinions regarding 'western muslims'. i am also intrigued on your thoughts about who and where on the planet muslims may understand the ' true islamic symbols' you mention above.

    Posted 2 years ago on 09 Sep 2009 15:25 #
  25. khurram Zaman
    Member

    Oriel,
    My post is pretty clear.
    Muslims in west have to live under secular laws,without hijab etc..
    How they can be role model for the rest of the muslims living in truly muslim countries????
    Muslims in west have to manage life under strict conditions their,as per the non-muslim govt...

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Sep 2009 3:24 #
  26. K.Z:

    let me help you grow in your knowledge:

    1. Muslims in the UK (yes, indeed we are in the West) do live under secular laws, but that has nothing to do with the issue of purdah. we wear hijab, jilbab, nikab and any other form of dress according to our identity.

    2. you are misguided if you think Pakistan is a truly 'muslim country', it surely is not. though Pakistan, as well as any country in the world, houses x amount of sincere, honourable Muslims.... this is not a monopoly of Pakistan; i do hope you are not delusional to think otherwise.

    3. muslims in the West are used to adhering to the law. exceptions are there. we can debate in length about the miscreant Muslims in the West, but having said that, there are a fair amount of miscreant Muslims everywhere.... wouldn't you agree?

    So, K.Z: although i am loathed to discuss who is better, where and why; i needed to clear the matter for you.

    have a good day!

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Sep 2009 13:39 #
  27. @oriel.... I did understand the initial postings that segregation of male and female in Muslim culture/religion is an alien concept for Gorras but will you blame them? Even among Muslims we don’t know the reasoning behind this segregation! The only reason is the utter "Ignorance" of Muslims in general! Why don't we not try to understand Quran?
    In this Particular month of Ramadan, all Muslim try to recite Quran without even trying to understand the meaning of Quran... If one tries to read Quran with its translation along with the tafseer then you will be able to explain your religion to non Muslims.

    The reason I picked up on British Pakistanis is cuz they do have given up on their Pakistani roots. I do agree with you that their is an increase trend of Hijjab in UK among Muslims but then this trend is also on increase in Pakistan. Every time I visit Pakistan, I see the Pakistani society segregation of religious and non religious/ Women with full Burqa/hijab women vs. westernized Pakistani women. I personally have no problem with these young brits growing trend of becoming religious but then I see a lot of brain washing of these young kids by the fanatic groups... C’mon if any one of you thinks that blowing up building and Trains is Islam then I will oppose this kind of Islam. Islam does not promote violence and even Jihad is Fard against those who raise Weapons and not the one who is empty handed. The definition of religion by different groups among Muslims have actually caused problems as they all define Islam according to their own "Clever thinking"

    Its like If I ask to do an bypass operation on you by Mulla, NNL, Semirza, Hitler, Hussainmehdi and Sky facts aka khurrum zaman.... Every one will perceive the meaning of the same book different.... (It’s just an example... ;-)

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Sep 2009 21:14 #
  28. zjshami
    Member

    The children born out of same parents, brought up under the same social, economic and moral conditions, differ on many aspects when they grow up.
    They cannot be declared as illegitimate.

    All the Muslims having differences on understanding and interpretation of Quran and Islam should be acknowledged as Muslims where they claim to be Muslims.

    Posted 2 years ago on 10 Sep 2009 22:18 #
  29. khurram Zaman
    Member

    Members should not mix up things here..
    As for as brain washing is concerned.Every army used this technique against oppnents.
    Japanies used this technique.
    Pakistan Army used it in 65 war of brain washed suiciders.
    Tamil tigers are well known for such type of bomers.
    Pelistine are famouse for this suicide brainwashed ppl and kids..
    So would you like to condemened this suicide approach at world army level or just muslim army you would like to drop this technique, to be defeated???
    Just 15 to 20 % of Pakistanis are living in ciites so if you are going to make any assumption on the basis,than this is void..
    As for as your personal political approach concerns,
    You always drag ordinary ppl as the cause ,due to their votes,for the govt,each and every democratic country have..
    So this is the same concept converted by the opponents that ppl should break their ties with govt if they are clear that the war is between white and black...
    So the ordinary ppl every where are responsible for thier acts,whether Armed or Just voters of their respective govts.And they should pay the cost for their ignorance.This ignorance rule is allaround after death.
    Would you be able to present your self for accountability,after life, claiming ignorance for certain wrong doings???NEVER.

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Sep 2009 0:12 #
  30. khurram Zaman
    Member

    [Even among Muslims we don’t know the reasoning behind this segregation! The only reason is the utter "Ignorance" of Muslims in general! Why don't we not try to understand Quran?]

    what do want to make clear out of Quran abt {muslims Ignorant segregation of male and female concept}...

    Let me know i will make it clear for you...

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Sep 2009 0:20 #
  31. khurram Zaman
    Member

    Oriel,
    Depends what standard you follow abt Islamic rules and regulations..
    If some one living abroad may observe low standard to follow Islamic rules as ur Islam is always alien concept for your fellows.
    You definitly would like the same for other muslims as you get many relaxations due to own weak Beliefes..
    But how you are going to suggest ur concepts to be followed by the rest of muslims..
    The agenda to present Islam as accoeding to the westren type of Islam is never new.
    May be some one can claim that westren muslims are more learned abt islamic concepts than east..
    it does not mean closing our eyes will do improve our knowledge.
    Your theoratical approach is the same but theorarical only.
    A discussion some thing having practical approach can lead us some where.
    But just for point scoring discussion is never useful..
    Re-think ur approach and would lead you to understand my post...

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Sep 2009 0:28 #
  32. K.Z:

    Your post is basically saying that you do not trust either Western Muslims or their Aqeeda. That is your choice. I leave you to your opinions, as I believe getting involved in a debate about the sincerity towards Allah, Rasool and His deen with regards to Western and Eastern Muslims is a ridiculous exercise. Allah knows best who is sincere and who needs improvement in this department.

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Sep 2009 11:36 #
  33. Khan Sahib:

    I agree that so many Pakistanis are ignorant about the reasons for segregation. Many Muslims in the West are in the field of education of the masses especially via TV; Islam Channel, Ummah Channel, Dr.Zakir's several channels in Urdu and English being just a few. Believe me when I say that these channels have an avid following among the 3rd generation youth and young adults.

    The general expectation from an educated professional person (here I'm referring to the British MP) would be of an open mind. He was going to attend a Muslim wedding. If he was bothered he could have found out about any cultural sensitivities before hand. Then he could have made the decision to attend or not, it was entirely his choice. There was no reason to up and leave just because he wasn't able to sit through the wedding with his wife as he was used to. As an MP, his obligations include manners and politeness towards his Constituents. Afterall, come vote time, it is these politicians that jump onto the band-wagon of multi-culturalism and ethnic inclusion.

    "In this Particular month of Ramadan, all Muslim try to recite Quran without even trying to understand the meaning of Quran..."

    One cannot make such sweeping generalizations. If we continue to talk about the 3rd/4th generations, as you have also agreed the trend is towards deen, both in the West and in Pakistan. Here, you know there is complete freedom to live however one wishes... as the 3rd/4th generation are more educated than the previous, in so being they are able to make the conscious mind-shift towards Haq and sense which only comes from Allah's path.

    I agree with your sentiments about brain-washing and firqaiyat. These are 2 current poisons within us today. But the only possible way of dealing with these malaise, is through a determined push by us all towards understanding our religion in the true sense. To be walking ambassadors of truth, tolerence, good-will, humanity, knowledge, manners, upholders of what is right, rejectors of what is wrong..... and pass these traits as Muslims onto the next generation.

    The rest is in Allah's hands :-)

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Sep 2009 11:57 #
  34. zjshami:

    Agreed with your post.

    ..."All the Muslims having differences on understanding and interpretation of Quran and Islam should be acknowledged as Muslims where they claim to be Muslims."

    It is difference, variety, multi-ethnicity which gives the Muslim Ummah its beauty. We must understand that instead of fearing or mis-trusting difference, we should embrace it and praise it. No tribe is better than another. No white person better than a black person and vice versa. No Arab better than a non-Arab..... better is he who possesses greater taqwa and nothing else.

    Anyway, this is a deviation from the original thread, so I shall end it here.... :-)

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Sep 2009 12:04 #
  35. zjshami
    Member

    To avoid further confusion and frustration it would be much wiser to cut a middle path for the future generation of Muslims.
    The Mujtahids shall have to Islamize some of the basic requirements of 21st Century to end a tug of war.
    A reasonable settlement is the ultimate requirement.
    There are some organization in Turkey and Egypt working to prepare for a moderate and workable blend of the Eastern and Western, religious and non-religious values.

    Right now it is a ground reality where most of the young Muslims are facing a conflict.

    eeman mujhe roke hai to khainche hai mujhe kufr
    kaaba mere peeche hai kaleesa mere aage

    Posted 2 years ago on 11 Sep 2009 12:24 #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.