No sanctity for Islam on pkpolitics

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No sanctity for Islam on pkpolitics

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tamaazkhan
Member

How are people allowed:
- to say 'this or that is against Islam'
- allowed to question others faith
- level false accusations in the name of Islam without proof
with impunity on this forum?

Is there no more shame?
Are we so easily allowed to use Islam as a pawn to further our arguments, ideas and political agendas?

Moderators?
Members?

I suggest there be a protocol when involving Islam in our discussion or arguments:
Before declaring anything against Islam or a requirement in Islam, we should be REQUIRED to provide source from Islamic texts or hadith!

Without which, dragging Islam into any topic should be banned!!!

The sanctity of the religion MUST be maintained, despite the best efforts of those self-proclaimed 'defenders of the faith'(hypocrites).

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 17:11 #
semirza
Moderator

A separate lightly moderated forum under a title ‘Faith and Religion’ was created specifically for this purpose.

Your suggestion:
Before declaring anything against Islam or a requirement in Islam, we should be REQUIRED to provide source from Islamic texts or hadith!
I agree this is the best way to discuss a sensitive issue like religion

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 17:21 #
javedsheikh
Members

Dear tamaazkhan,
I am glad where you picked up a good observation.
At this Forum, there is a section dedicated to discuss and share Faith and Religious related topics.

Some respectable members are holding a mission to inject Islam, even where it is not relevant and required.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 17:25 #
tamaazkhan
Member

@semirza

In this case I am talking about habits of certain members to issue 'fatwas' while arguing in the Current Issues section.

So many times I have read in the current issues forums:
'Oh, this is against Islam'
or 'Islam requires this'
Just as a ploy to further ones argument, but no source of hadith or quotation of Quran is provided.

I think we should enforce this protocol while discussion our religion in any forum.

We MUST maintain sanctity of Islam!

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 17:27 #
Hussain Farooqui
Member

When the name of religion is used as a shield of protection for notorious disorders then naturally disasters pursue those disorders. There was a time in the Europe, when the priests enjoyed all the absolute powers of the society. They had even the authority to collect taxation revenues. The revenues were all at their disposal. They enjoyed highest standards of living. All the European kings were like their obedient servants. They allocated budgets to the Kings for running the affairs of the countries. Gradually, they began to get involved in the cases of sexual molestation and other social disorders. Resultantly, there was a general revolt against them in the European societies. In the later era, the priests were confined to the churches with charity and donations as their only sources of income.

The Mullahs, particularly, the political Mullahs should learn lessons from the European history. The Mullahs need to adopt the practices of the saints who preached Islam in this region on the basis of their piety, knowledge and sincerity.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 17:38 #
semirza
Moderator

I think we should enforce this protocol while discussion our religion in any forum.
Agreed Tamaazkhan Sahib, also:

One should not bring in a topic concerning religion or one’s faith while the topic is non religious.

Similarly intentional twist of a topic towards religion or faith with a purpose to malign it is also unjustified.

In both cases such comments could be removed with or without warning depending on content of comments.

‘Freedom of speech’ should not be taken as a license to say what ever one may please disregarding religious, cultural beliefs, emotions or sentiments held dear by others.

Agreed once more: We MUST maintain sanctity of Islam!

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 17:58 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

I wonder, will people like 'tamaazkhan' or others accept word of Islam, when we provide them references for it ?

Many members have provided references of what Islam says on this very forum. Have people like 'tamaazkhan' or others accepted their word as a result ?

I don't think so. I don't see them accepting what Islam says.

So, what's the point ?

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 18:30 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Can someone please prove that Islam's sanctity is being violated, before we jump to conclusions, decisions or actions ?

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 18:33 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: I can question your or anyone's loyalty to;

(1) ALLAH ALMIGHTY
(2) Islam
(3) Muhammad (SAW)
(4) Sunnah of Muhammad (SAW)
(5) Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW)
(6) Ways of Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW)

at any given time. It is neither prejudice, nor a crime.

Rest assured, I will not leave you in peace, if I find you claiming to be a Muslim, yet going against everything Islam stands for.

'Loyalty' of a person is of critical importance. 'Loyalty' is one of the big problems Muslims are faced with today.

Today, Muslims are not worse off, because of foreign intervention or foreign designs. Muslims are worse off because of people living within our ranks. These people claim to be Muslims, yet go against everything Islam stands for.

These are the people who are backstabbing us all the time.

Right now, I find you to be one such person.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 18:49 #
tamaazkhan
Member

@haris

I welcome individuals LIKE YOU questioning my sincerity.

The credibility of my words are enhanced when the LIKES OF YOU try to question my faith and loyalty.

It becomes obvious that you are at a loss when it comes to countering my arguments, so you try the BASE method of questioning my integrity.

But, please keep in mind the moderators words.
Next time you issue your 'fatwas' please include quotations from quran and hadith.
Otherwise I assume action will be taken.

Good Day, say hello to the gremlins in your mind for me!

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 19:09 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: I expect no less from you. If you make a claim, I expect you to do the same.

..and let me re-pose the question;

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 19:10 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Haris, How old are you?

Why do you never answer this question?

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 19:11 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Will people like 'tamaazkhan' or others accept word of Islam, when we provide them references for it ?

Many members have provided references of what Islam says on this very forum. Have people like 'tamaazkhan' or others accepted their word as a result ?

I don't think so. I don't see them accepting what Islam says.

So, what's the point ?

This thread or its topic is moot.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 19:12 #
tamaazkhan
Member

@haris

Then provide a Quranic or Hadith reference for your argument below:

When politicians remove autonomy of judiciary from constitution of Pakistan, through 18th Amendment, they are going against Islam, Islam's standards
http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/19th-amendment-to-remove-18th-amendment#post-138783

When did the prophet declare Qazi separate form his office?
When did sahaba call for independent judiciary?
Where are your references?

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 19:17 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

I know what this thread stands for. Your objective is to shut me up for a considerable amount of time, while you enjoy free hand in spreading propaganda.

Well, you are consistently avoiding my question;

Have you ever accepted that which came to you with! references from Islam ?

In-fact you have always rejected it. So, why should I bother ?

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 19:39 #
haider3
member

I agree with Hariskhan on the point he makes above. With or without references to the Quran Pak, etc., criticism of Islam will carry on by those who feel it's not the way to go politically, or economically for that matter. So we should reject any added restrictions on our ability to mention the Islamic way of straightening out this country in various discussions.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:01 #
semirza
Moderator

Is there any point to discuss Islam with a self claimed athiest or a nonreligious person when that person is steadfast in his belief. I think such discussions should be avoided.
Islam should not be imposed/forced on others.

Why not live and let live. On this forum we have members from all walks of life having different beliefs so why not respect eachother regardless of his/her religious/non religious background.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:11 #
SufiSoul
Member

Fill Haal Haris have an upper hand in this discussion..
These some posts b/w Haris and Tamaaz really deeply impressed me..
They are just here with logics and no personal behaviour...
This is a master peice of differences at pkpolitics so far...

Keep it up in the same logical way....

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:12 #
Wahid Doyum
Member

Agree with semirza. The tactic of using Islam for political arguments is very common among jamaati members. They use this to avoid any real discussion, when they accuse the messenger and ignore the message.

And this is the intolerant viewpoint that haris khan and others like him want to impose on other people, where if you don't except their religious views, you will have zero rights.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:30 #
SufiSoul
Member

@semirza,

It only happens when questions are raised abt Islam by athiests or non-religious ones..
And discussion into some contest is also the need for both of the sides....
I think without getting personlised logical discussion is acceptable both here and in Faith & Religion.....

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:33 #
Wahid Doyum
Member

Sufi, majority of questions about Islam are introduced by jamaati members of this forum when they accuse others of being atheists and other things which no evidence at all.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:36 #
SufiSoul
Member

haris khan,

When someone came withideology that for example HIJAB in Pakistan and Salath are rejected by most of the Pakistanis and its obvious that due to such factors people +establishment+Intelligentia of Pakistan never allow religious parties to come with majority in Pakistan.BUT with minority to allow them to negotiate between religious people and govt,if needed in the crises...

Than they would be definitly at point of view and logic that when RELIGIOUS PARTIES are in minority and people dont want so they should keep silent abt some ISLAMIC ORDERS like above...

So what is ur stand at this majority consensus standing against ISLAMIC wordings/Rules.....

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:40 #
semirza
Moderator

Exactly SufiSoul.
No harm if an athiest or a non religious person raises a question to seek knowledge about Islam.
Both sides when they listen to eachother, think and then respond with comments would be nice with a positive outcome.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:45 #
haider3
member

Quite agree, Moderator Sahib, Live and let live is the best of mottoes. But Islam-supporters should also be allowed to have their say, I suppose, without this being promptly construed as an effort to force others to convert to our beliefs.

Attacks on JI should also be more moderate in tone, don't you think? To listen to some people, it would seem as though JI or then Zaid Hamid have made Pakistan come to its present pass, a patently absurd contention, or am I wrong, perhaps?

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:45 #
SufiSoul
Member

Wahid,things get much complecated in this time of age..
AT one side we have democracy which stands for only wishes of people,may be against ISLAM..
On the other side we have strict ISLAMIC rulings in every walk of life,may be against the wishes of people...

SO how to avoid tussel between these two ends////

Upto some extent you can avoid this difference through diplomacy..
BUT when it is face to face than there is only one way...

1.Accept the majority rule,no matter against ISLAM

2.Accept Islamic rule of Law,no matter against the wishes of people...

So this is not so simple here..........

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:48 #
Wahid Doyum
Member

What do attacks on JI have anything to do with Islam? JI is a political party that simply abuses Islam for its needs.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:49 #
Wahid Doyum
Member

Sufi, first thing you have to learn that democracy does not mean wishes of people alone. Since pakistan is a republic, it should mean wishes of people in line with constitution and that constitution should be in line with islam. It's not free for all system as jamaatis like to portray.

Reality of democracy in pakistan is different of course because of army-mullah nexus.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:51 #
SufiSoul
Member

Mirza Ghalib,

That is valid point and me too in some previous thread raised the same with face to face Haris in a thread,that some ID's have a good time to pass with Haris, the tone against IJT..
This attitude also a non-mature and should be avoided.It leads the discussion into crises,as the politics and Islam is also a very hard topic to give ur opinion abt.. .

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:54 #
Achoota
Member

I don't think any one can ask about others loyalty. Every one is answerable to Allah and every one has a right to keep his faith the way he likes. Even islamic state can't go beyond 3 things kalima, namaz and zakat. Hazrat Abu Bakr clearly quoted ayats related to bani ismail and used them as limits where a state can go.
So let's not challenge each others islam as only God knows who is right muslim if even major companions of prophet were not certified on their state of islam how can we let this happen today. Can some one prove that such practice was ever there in islam where some one stands up and start questioning others loylty on his defined list.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:55 #
Wahid Doyum
Member

So, next after Taliban, IJT, we should also adopt moderate tone for MQM, CIA, ISI, Blackwater, Israel? All these groups are trouble making groups.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:56 #
semirza
Moderator

Mirza Galib Sahib
All have their say at this forum. Islam supporters too.

I have noticed excesses and things being overdone as you correctly pointed out.

A balance has to be observed by the right and the left; same will be maintained with thorough but evenhanded effort by the administration.

Your saying:it would seem as though JI or then Zaid Hamid have made Pakistan come to its present pass, a patently absurd contention, don't you think

Blaming JI or Zaid Hamid for Pakistan's present pass is a generalization, and generalizations are not necessarily correct..at times absurd...I do agree with you.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:56 #
Wahid Doyum
Member

Good point Achoota. We don't now who is really Muslim or not just by their words. For all we know, the so called big muslims on this forum may not be muslims at all in practice. There is no way for us to know, only for Allah to judge.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:58 #
SufiSoul
Member

Wahid you are historically misstaken abt democracy here...
Democracy is always abt wishes....and wishes only....
Nawaz wishes,zardari wishes,Army wishes and so on....

Islam is not that easy to go with..

Log aasan samajhthy hain musalman hona...

Our constitution is ISLAMIC only...

I hope you understand...

Laikin itni historical mistake,please dont repeat such mistakes in the future abt things like Democracy......

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 20:59 #
SufiSoul
Member

Wahid,Achoots,

Such claim that we dont know abt ISLAM which one is correct,automatically throughs you out of discussion related to IJT and their ISLAM and also ISLAM..
BUT you are the most active opinionist abt ISLAM when it come to IJT or ISLAM...

Please tell me if i am wrong.....

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 21:05 #
SufiSoul
Member

Achoota,

Yar here is the discussion abt political Islam not something within one Islam & other Islam.....

Tamaaz started this with the same motive of a tussel between Islam and political standings...

I think you get....

Tamaaz khan kidhar hy?????aja bhai sum up to karo....

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 21:08 #
Achoota
Member

Sufi, can you read haris above he can question any one loyalty to Allah and full list mentioned by him.... Do you think it has any thing to do with political islam?
Because today if some one questions one rather doubts others loylty to God under the reason that for him loyalty is key.
Tomorrow this can go to any extent... So discussion should remain on political views and not on persons loyalty etc.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 21:16 #
SufiSoul
Member

waisy ye theek kaha hy aap ny.......
Persons ko darmiyan me nahi lana chahiye......

Ideology discuss hony chahiye....sirf...

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 21:29 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@Wahid Doyum: How is JI abusing DEEN for its needs ? How do you substantiate this claim ?

(1) Were ALL! Prophets (AS) that ALLAH ALMIGHTY sent to mankind, were ALL! they (AS) not politicians themselves (AS) ?

(2) Were Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW) not politicians themselves ?

--------------------------------------------------------

@Achoota: Each other's Islam ?

There is no! each other's Islam. There is of-course each other's 'beliefs'. That is acceptable.

Islam is only ONE, that which ALLAH ALMIGHTY sent.

If you believe, we do not need to question other's loyalty to ALLAH ALMIGHTY, to the people one claims to be loyal to, then why;

(1) does mankind need justice ?

(2) were 'traitors' persecuted all throughout history of mankind ?

(3) is treason punishable by death ?

(4) has treason always! been punishable by death (exemplary! punishment) all throughout mankind's history ?

(5) etc etc

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 22:32 #
SufiSoul
Member

Quote:

(If you believe, we do not need to question other's loyalty to ALLAH ALMIGHTY, to the people one claims to be loyal to)..

If tyou claim than be ready for questioning....

This is Agreed.......

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 22:41 #
achtung
Member

yeh sirif aur sirif allah hee janta hy keh kon uska loyal hy. doosrey kissi ko iss kay jan-ney ki zaroorat bhi nahee kionkeh ajar allah ney daina hy kissi bandey ney nahee.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 22:48 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

ALLAH gave mankind the gift of;

(1) 'mind' (human brain)
(2) 'thinking power' (the ability to think)
(3) the power to make decisions
(4) the power to differentiate between right & wrong, good & bad

It was not in vain. It was for a reason. It was for a purpose.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 23:07 #
achtung
Member

haris bhai. laikin shayad aap yeh samajhtey hein keh yeh 4 adad gift allah taala ney sirif jamaatioo ko diye hein?

mankind ka koi bhi rukan agar koi faisla karta ya baat karta hy tou inn khuda-dad gifts ko hee istemaal karkey karta hy. phir aap unko ghalat kaisey keh saktey ho.

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 23:17 #
tamaazkhan
Member

Sufi, Haris, Mirza,

You keep saying that I wouldn't agree even if you gave me Islamic injunctions.

However, you people have NOT ONCE furnished a Quranic and Hadith quote for your 'supposed' Islamic 'fatwas'.

Its very simple if it is an Islamic injunction give me the quotation and I WILL SHUT UP!

How dare you call yourself Islamic Supporters when you don't even know the Quran and Sunnah!
If you know Quran and Sunnah prove it, because on face value, you guys don't seem to know anything about Islam!!

Posted 2 years ago on 11 Apr 2010 23:51 #
sasherwani
Members

hehe..

If you ask Haris to provide reference for his 'facts' .. his typical answers are:

1. I have ALREADY provided proof numerous times ALAS it was no use!
2. There is no use providing proof to the likes of people like YOU!
3. When JUSTICE prevails, proof will start pouring down the sky ;)

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 5:23 #
Anti Pakistan
Member

what Islam where Islam

What islam r u talking,

Islam doesn't mean that u limit Islam only to Talk,

Islam is complete way of Life, In Pakistan we are only following 10% of Islam, 90% of our desires,

There are few people in the world who are completely following the true way of Life (Islam).

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 5:38 #
Beenai
Moderator

when there is a separate section ,dedicated for religious discussions ,there is no point left for these kinda complaints .i guess.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 5:46 #
haider3
member

Hang on, tamaazkhan, are you saying the masses in Pakistan, often illiterate, are not Muslims, i.e. Islamic Supporters? If you were to ask them for chapter and verse from Quran and Sunnah for their beliefs, they would not be able to satisfy you on that point. But they, at least, live totally in accordance with their understanding of Islam.

Now that you've answered HK's question unequivocally, he'll proabably be glad to give you what you ask for. Although, one often gets the impression that much of the time what happens in such discussions about the faith is quibbling rather than mind-improving.

Dear Moderator Sahib, I do appreciate your absolute impartiality in matters controversial and have tried to say so in the past.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 7:34 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@tamaazkhan: Let me show you an example of how you sideline/abandon Islam, and give priority to your own personal whims.

I told you politics is part of Islam's teachings. I told you it is Sunnah of;

(1) Muhammad (SAW)
(2) ALL! prophets in-fact that politics be excersized

Yet you deny it.

If you had the slightest knowledge of Islam, the life of Muhammad (SAW), the life of Companions (RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW), you'd already understand and accept it. Did you accept that which Islam says in this instance or in contrast do you cling to your own views, your own whims ?

You still cling to secularism i.e., separation of DEEN from power/politics.

So, why should I bother with 'satisfying' you ?

Is it not better for me to leave you be, to tell you to conduct your own independent research ?

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 7:53 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@sasherwani: As always your sarcasm is still! out of place :|

Its not like I haven't shared knowledge with you people. Knowledge from well known Ulamaa of Islam. Knowledge, facts, evidence, logical evidence, etc etc.

Perhaps you have forgotten;

(1) the videos from google video, from youtube of Dr. Israr, of Sheikh Imran Hosein that I linked on this forum on the subject secularism vs. Islam

I gave evidence that secularism is at odds with Islam. Yet you people sidelined/abandon/reject it. You people choose to continue with your illegitimate nonsense.

(2) Hudood Ordinance, justice for Pakistani women/female kind

(3) meaning of Jihad

(4) credible, logical evidence against current military operations

(5) credible, logical evidence against war on terror (aka war of terror)

(6) stealing of money in huge! sums from Pakistan

How it has destroyed as is still destroying the lives of millions! of people of Pakistan, disabling our people from moving towards life of prosperity.

(7) I posted videos to give credible, logical evidence of 'Authenticity of Hadees', yet you deny it

Its still available on the thread: Video: Authenticity of Hadees

(8) credible, logical arguments for not taking up debt/aid money from foreign entities

How it has destroyed as is still destroying the lives of millions! of people of Pakistan, disabling our people from moving towards life of prosperity.

(9) etc etc

If you people were loyal to ALLAH ALMIGHTY, to Islam, to Muhammad (SAW), to Companions RA, RAA) of Muhammad (SAW), you'd accept Islam's teachings, guidelines, ways, principles, rules, laws, standards in contrast to your own whims. It is crystal clear to me, that you people are not ready to do that.

So, why bother me to dig stuff or more! stuff for you, that you are not ready to accept, anyway ?

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 8:14 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

You people have the audacity of rejecting authority of people on prominent positions, authenticity of their word even when credible, logical evidence has been provided to you.

So, why bother me to dig stuff or more! stuff for you, that you are not ready to accept, anyway ?

You people don't have the credibility, the reputation to question me for anything!.

Posted 2 years ago on 12 Apr 2010 8:18 #