ucsher
Member
(just look at the reaction of the host when he says that)
watch from 6:47 to onwards
Even though the whole program is worth watching
and by the way.... They should also give Jazia!!! (Remember [Fahim] how you were denying this fact??)
talk about human rights & Islam...
msohail83
Member
You secular/liberal maniacs are equally dangerous and evil for this country.
Taliban = englithened moderates (both need to be wiped out)
I don't agree with Dr. Israr on this particular matter, but I do have a lot more respect for him than your so called secular drunkard running the country.
netengr
blocked
Dr Israr Supported taliban but never visited Afghanistan during taliban
Dr Israr supported Lal masjid but did not try to solve the issue
Dr israr never condemn killings and slaghtering
DR Israr left jamaat islami because he was against the idea to take part in elections by islamic groups .by Dr sab keep comments in elections and politics and was the supporter of MMA.
Dr israr said once that pakistan should have 27 provinces.
Dr israr ideology is the same as Hizbul tehreer or alqaida ,his idea was to collect some power then with the force change the government .
this is the same virus but low category
Here is the virus category
Jamaati Virus Category 1 (high)
Alqaida ,Hizbul Tehreer ,islami jihad ,jaish mohammad etc
Jamaati virus Category 2 (medium)
Taliban ,Sipah sahaba ,Lashker-e-taiba,jamaat ahle hadeees etc
Jmaati virus Category 3 (low )
Jamaat Islami ,Tanzeem Islami ,JUI ,ISF ,etc
ucsher
Member
@msohail83
What Secular rulers?..The ones who literally lied down in front of talibans and tried to make a state with in state by doing a pact with talibans?
The fact is that "liberals/ Secularists" were never allowed to come in to their true colors in the theocracy called pakistan and yet the way you guys try to exaggerate the imaginary danger that they pose to you by calling them "Liberal facists" is ridiculous!!!
and btw what these so-called "liberal fasicts" are asking you to do now that is bothering you so much?..
are they fasicts when they say...
that at least let us enjoy the liberties that the islamic constitution of 1973 bestowed upon us by getting rid of these extremist who (by the looks of things) would never get satisfied unless pakistan becomes a tribal islamic state of ancient arabia???
did they ever try to make pakistan a secular state with guns and bombs the way these religious fanatics are tryig to do with a state which is already "ISLAMIC" IN NATURE?
did they ever make anomalies like talibans to further their "STRATEGIC DEPTH" in the region?
did they ever fantasize about hoisting the flag of "secularism" in Pakistan let alone the whole world?
You know hate liberals/secularists as much as you like because lets face it when they talk about liberties and secularism they are actually trying to pose a threat to the "chaudrahat" that a particular school of thought is enjoying here in the name of religion but at least don't exaggerate the threat they pose to you by comparing them with the "Frankestien monster" that you created in the name of Islam!
msohail83
Member
Both of these groups are minorties. Barely 2% EACH (if that)!
Englightned Moderates <-- confined to DHA's, Model towns, clifton, and all other posh areas!
Goal -- Freedumb, party 24/7, clubs, alcohol, nude club/beach, beauty pageants, etc. (Anything that aligns them with Western world)
Taliban <-- Products of madrassa that preach radical Islam, mostly Deobandis, no offence.
Goal -- Force everyone to go to mosque, burqa & Beard compulsory, no girls education, etc.
They both wanna impose their idealogy on majority by hook or by crook.
Both are extremists and must be defeated at all cost!
msohail83
Member
My proposed solution ---
There're a couple of small islands by Karachi. I recommend we inhabitate and dump all the liberal and religious extremists there, where they could be ruled by their godfathers Musharraf and Sufi respectively.
Pakistan will be a very peaceful place w/o them.
what if they will live with each other, may be they will neutralize each other.
nagatorpun
Member
How much do you know about liberals? I don't know any one including myself that they want to do the things which you mentioned above. Liberals want freedom from oppression and freedom to do anything according to law. You will observe that the best educational institutes, hospitals, schools are run by these so called liberals. While some of your best teachers, writers, researchers are liberals.
Some of your maulvis(including some party leaders) are drunkards,**** and smugglers so what do you say about them. And listen most of the pakistanis are liberals one way or other.
rafi
Member
The struggle within Islamic societies is not a new phenomena. The reason western system of governemnt prevailed and succeeded because they understand and recognise flaws in human nature. Whereas purist Islamist inside islamic cultures refused to acknowledge their existence. For example, Ahmed-i-Nijad responding to a question in his Colombia university address in 2007 about treatment of homosexuals in Iran with a state of denial. He said that there are no homosexuals in Iran. This is the major difference between Islamic worls and rest of the world. It is not possible to extradicate flaws in human nature forever. Human is a combination of good and evil, a person may be evil sometimes but he/she can be a saint in some deeds. Purist refuse to acknowledge this fact, therefore they make all out attempt to create pure society. Eavery century in Islamic history is full of thids kind of struggle.
It is also suggested that moderate thinking only existed in elites. Wrong! a poor lobor in Liyari or liaqatabad may be in a habit of having a couple of desi tharra etc. This attitudes is vertical in all levels of society and doesn't matter how much restrictions the purist want to impose it won't succeed.
So the dream of purist will never materialise because it is against basic humna instinct.
ucsher
Member
@sohail83
1-Ideologies are not party manifestos that you can implement them only when you have certain "numbers" in your pocket
2-If they were, India would have been a hindu state even on papers (just like pakistan)
3-Gandhi guided india to implement a secular ideology and they followed, Quaid tried in his own way but i guess the nature of a state won in the name of religion proved too good for him.
(No wonder he finally realized the fact that he actually had ended up with "khotay sikkay" )
4- If secularism was just about sharab, kabab, naach, gaana , then i guess Musharraf's & mqm's karachi should be hosting all those "nangay mujray, gandi jugtain, treatment of women as a mere entertainment object etc etc so openly
& N.O.T
Ammeer-ul-momineen's/ taliban sympathizer L.A.H.O.R.E/(PUNJAB)
...and btw I would very much doubt it if even any of those secular countries would approve of such low level of profane entertainment which is happening in the so-called ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKSTAN!! (see!!, how "saaf suthra moashra" we have achieved just by making our state read "kalma"?? )
5-just out of curiosity..Did you also include that .099% of establishment/ clean-shaven talibans in the 2% who according to you are religious extremists???
6- I hope some day this "Numerology Theory" of yours becomes alive so that those 96% of "khamoosh tamashai/ DARMAYANI QAUM" that you talk so passionately about could also stand up and make themselves count ..because frankly speaking it seems that today's pakistan is just haunted by that 2.99 % of extremist supporters that you talked about ;)
ucsher
Member
@rafi
"Ahmed-i-Nijad responding to a question in his Colombia university address in 2007 about treatment of homosexuals in Iran with a state of denial. He said that there are no homosexuals in Iran"
POST OF THE DAY FOR ME!!!! ..just shows how religious fanatics keep denying the realities of this world just to forcefully implement what according to them is RIGHT & DIVINE!!!
msohail83
Member
@letsdoit
Nice proposal. I believe that could work as well. We should let them fight it out. One day they'll get tired and then they could return to mainland Pakistan.
@sher
Don't be so naive. Do I have to tell u about the life in Karachi? I thought you lived there!
Your example is very very weak. That **** khana u mentioned has been there before the creation of pakistan. I certainly don't approve it, but don't bring century old filthy traditions to discussion.
Mind you, most of those girls found there are kidnapped by the pimps who groom them and later throw them in prostitution. BTW, those folks are part of that liberal 2%!
rafi
Member
There is repeated rhetoric about 2% liberals. Let me narrate an experience.
About 19 years ago I went to Baluchistan for a job related work. The area was pashtoon majority and our cook was pashtoon to. He made some real good food. He was in his late thirties at that time and happily married with kids. He was very religious practicing Muslim too.
One day our host told me that the cook will be away for first half of the day because he is going to a place in town where they privately screen Indian Bollywood movie for a fee. Since our cook was very fond of Indian movies and songs therefore he goes there once or twice every month. But he keeps it private because it considered a taboo in his tribe. That night we talked to the cook who was in very happy mood told us about the movie he sing some songs too, he told us that many friends from his tribe go to movie but they keep it hush hush. He was not talking about porno movie, just a regular bollywood flick.
Moral of the story:
All levels Pakistanis are religious and conservative but they don't want fanatics to dictate them their life.
misalligned
Member
konsi islamic state main aisa hota hai.
In pakistan, pakistanis are treated as 2nd class citizen and foriegners are treated as 1st class citizens.
adolf hitler
Blocked
@ misalligned
Pakistan is not a state but a herd of people.
Whatever You say is right but citizens are present in STATES and not areas like Pakistan
misalligned
Member
actually this was my point. They have started criticizing Dr. Israr, first tell me if there is any islamic state in this world?
aur choopoo ganay
adolf hitler
Blocked
Dr. Israr suffers from CEREBRAL INFARCTION because the blood supply to his brain has stopped a few decades back.
Plz dont critisize him. Its not his fault.
APP_KA_BAAP
Member
dr israr is not a mufti or aalim.he is a ph.d. i have heard in 1995 that he was making a force for a islamic revolution.
i think he still working on that. as far as jizya is concern i have asked and read the books that non-muslim should pay jizya. they will pay jizya if they wanna live in a islamic country.and that Jesus will come again, and at that time will (among other things) abolish jizya, as Allah will "perish all religions except Islam".
Fahim23
Member
@ucsher
Dr Israr Ahmed is a scholar not god or a Prophet, his many things are controversial and his words are not the final authority for me. I listen to him like any other scholar and agrees to certain things according to my understanding.
I don't remember I have discussed before in this forum about jizya and certainly denying that non-muslims should pay tht. But let me tell you my information and point of view on Jizya.
Jizya is one of the taxation system and every State demands tax from its citizens. In Islam muslims are supposed to pay Zakaat as tax, it is mendatory for an Islamic state to collect and for citizens to pay. While non-muslims male adults only (not women, children, sick, or old) in return of the Islamic State's full protection (life, property and religious freedom) and exemption from serving in Military, are supposed to pay some money in the form of Jizya. Also note that Jizya has always been less than Zakaat. I think Jizya is very fair deal that was offered to the non-muslims. If any non-muslim individual or group agrees to serve in the military he is no more liable to pay even Jizya. This happent in the times of Caliph Umer when one christian tribe decided to be part of military instead of paying Jaziya.
However, in modern state where every citizen (muslim or non-muslim) is taxed there is no point of imposing separate tax in the form of jizya on the non muslims. And this is not only my personal view, there are many scholars who advocates that. In fact whole fiqh of Shafayee school of thought agrees with that.
Dr Javed Ghamidi another Islamic scholar is of the point of view that certain commands like the military advances and jizya were only time limited. They are not eternal. Now no muslim state has the right to invade any other sovereign state in the name of Islam or anything else.
So, no one (in Pakistan at least) is paying nor is supposed to pay Jaziya when every citizen pays the equal tax! No matter what Dr Israr Ahmed says!
Please read this very good and elaborate article on jizya containing different point of views: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
Neither I as a muslim thinks that I am any superior than any other human being just because I recite Kalma. What would make me superior is my actions only. In the last sermon of prophet (PBUH) he said tat: "All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action."
PS: There are religious scholars who banned offering prayer in bulb light, or banished saying azaan on loud speakers, or made polio vacination and democracy Haram. Ottoman empire despite all the wealth and resources didn't develop air force because the scholars of that time considered it Haram! So, don't take every religious scholar so seriously.
I think you too realize muslims are going through their Dark Ages, so such fatwas and opinions should not be surprising! The western ppl have suffered must worst during thr renaissance thn wat we are facing in the name of Religion!
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