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Obama hands over Afghanistan to the Talibs

(60 posts)
  1. Obama hands over Afghanistan to the Talibs
    Posted on 25 June 2011.

    We have been predicting it for a couple of years. We predicted the beginning of the draw down in 2011 and we again predict the most US forces will leave Afghanistan much before 2014. The fig leaf of “we will stay in Afghanistan” is as fake as the 10,000 soldiers who stay hidden away from combat. The 10,000 troops will be sequestered in fort near the Amu Darya. This US Aircraft career will stay grounded and as impotent as the one in the Green Zone in Baghdad. President Barack Obama has announced that the US will have 10,000 fewer troops in Afghanistan by the end of the year, from a total of over 100,000, with another 23,000 to depart by the middle of 2012. Its a drawback not a draw down. President Obama’s disappointment was palpable in the speech. His frustration was audible in the words. His chagrin was clearly accented when he failed to mention Pakistan as an ally which had lost more soldiers than any of the NATO countries.

    His speech has poured cold water on the Bharati ambitions of keeping the Talibs out of power. Once again Bharat finds itself on the wrong side of history. The US withdrawal send shivers of fear down the spine of the Northern Alliance and their lackeys. The so called Northern Alliance knows that its decade long gig is up–and this time around, neither Iran, nor Russia will be baby-sitting them. One expects Abdullah Abdullah, Sleah, Amin Fahim and the other crooks to be sitting in Mumbai soon. From there they will continue to issue vitriolic statements, just like the Dalai Lama does today.

    There is nothing Obama can do about Afghanistan and he knows it. He talked about reconciliation with the Talibs. The UN will take the names off the terrorist list. In one stroke the terrorists will once again become allies–sitting on a peace table put together by Germany. Obama said he has “reason to believe that progress can be made … the goal that we seek is achievable”. He is too busy planning his second coronation after his favorite Rham Emanuel will be orchestrating the charade of a peace conference in Chicago.

    The world knows that the Talibs have won the war. All the US can do is try to hide its defeat by blaming Pakistan. The entire region wonders what the war was all about it. As Imran Khan says “the Americans left the mess, and we were left to clean it up’. This time around it will be up to the region to clean up the mess again. Obama tells the world a bankrupt America “has no money for reconstruction”. Obama tells the voters in 2012 “it is time to focus on nation-building here at home.” He brilliantly disarmed his biggest Republican opponent General Petraeus by giving him the CIA–just like he eliminated opposition from the Clinton lovers in the Democratic party by including her in his administration.

    As the US walks away from Afghanistan, there will be celebration from the Amu Darya, to Ferghana to the Hindu Kush to the Indus Valley. This jubilation will be tempered by the bloody fireworks that the CIA will throw at Pakistan and Kabul. Michael Sheuer said it best–the US has lost, and the Afghans and the Pakistanis have won. The one message that will resonate across the globe is that the Talibs cannot be defeated, neither by the USSR, nor by the USA.

    There is no funeral in Delhi, that is the sound of Bharat being let down–first being promised that there would be no negotiations with the Talibs and then being promised the unsustainable notion of a partitioned Afghanistan. Who will control that partition, the 10,000 US troops? As my teenage kids would righ “Right!” Delhi fully recognizes the new realities and is smoking a peace pipe with Islamabad. Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan are already celebrating Tehran. Iran’s supreme leader accused the America of supporting terrorism, pointing to US drone strikes in Pakistan and Afghanistan that have killed hundreds of civilians. Iran is pleased to no end at the withdrawal. China and Russia are snickering and already sounded very happy in Astana. China and Pakistan come closer and Russia continues to mend fences with Islamabad. All roads to Kabul go via Islamabad.

    http://rupeenews.com/?p=37306&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RupeeNews+%28Rupee+News%29

    Posted 11 months ago on 28 Jun 2011 9:32 #
  2. zingaro
    Member

    Whether it is Obama or some other nut, this was to happen. Afghanistan is named as grave of empires....

    Posted 11 months ago on 28 Jun 2011 9:58 #
  3. toamin
    member

    Some smoke & mirror for up coming election campaign.

    the timing of the withdrawal coincides very favourably with next year’s presidential debates. It plays very well with American voters, which most polls suggest significant numbers favour withdrawal of US troop – ranging from 54% [The New York Times / CBS News poll was conducted Feb 2011] to 72% [USA Today / Gallup Jan 2011].

    The Obama Doctrine Pakistan and drawdown from Afghanistan

    Posted 11 months ago on 28 Jun 2011 13:39 #
  4. scandinavian
    Member

    I don't believe the Americans ever imagined to conquer Afghanistan. After all they are not that stup!d in spite of having all that fire power. It's obvious they had and still have other plans i.e. destabilizing Pakistan. The latter is a much easier task than conquering Afghanistan. We have so many Mir Sadiqs and Mir Jaffers that the American job has become far too easy. If the current CORRUPT to the core rulers are given a free hand to rule us, then it will be an easy riding for them.

    HAKUMAT HATAO MULK BACHAO is the only solution for Pakistan. I consider the friendly and CORRUPT "opposition" led by Kuggoo=heart patient NS as a part of the hakumat.

    Posted 11 months ago on 28 Jun 2011 14:34 #
  5. Good article all in all, Salam, nicely balancing out the one opening this thread. The conclusion was specially good, though I do object to attributing such skill and might to the US. In my eyes, they have neither. We in Pakistan could walk away from them whenever we chose, but only if we wished to do so, of course. As for their troops in Afghanistan, whatever their plans today, tomorrow will show us that not one invader soldier in the country will be tolerated by the Talib over time.

    Posted 11 months ago on 28 Jun 2011 14:37 #
  6. My agreement with both zingaro and Scandinavian as well.

    Posted 11 months ago on 28 Jun 2011 14:38 #
  7. junaid
    Member

    i hear you mirza sahab on your second last post.

    Posted 11 months ago on 28 Jun 2011 21:30 #
  8. Thanks, junaid. I'm so glad I'm not the sole voice crying out in the desert. May many others join us in our views as well.

    Posted 11 months ago on 28 Jun 2011 22:07 #
  9. toamin
    member

    And I agree with you too Mirza Ghalib

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 7:54 #
  10. Bingo, Salam! The more of us who can believe in three essential things:

    1. The lying, killing, hypocritical west is not invincible.

    2. Pakistan can walk away from its ill-fated US alliance.

    3. The Talib, or better said the Afghans, will never put up with west presence in Afghanistan.

    the quicker we can remedy where we went wrong during the course of our short history as a nation.

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 8:27 #
  11. 2011pakistan
    Member

    Americans have achieved its goals in Afghanistan and war / terrorism has been shifted from Afghanistan into Pakistan borders.

    Thousands of families inside Pakistan tribal areas have wasted their lives, properties etc and thousands have been wounded or disabled. Revenge feelings in these families can not be removed for a long time.

    All these factors make it easy to develop tribal war within Pakistan (in fact already started). therefore, American goal is achieved and now, War is shifted in side Pakistan.

    Wrong strategies adopted by military establishment since 50's till today have been supporting American approach in the region.

    All the mess/evils today, Pakistan nation is facing due to military establishment decissions making.

    The political cadre picked from local government elections and trained to play B Team role, has also been playing according to the script handed over to them by establishment.

    Religious sects and parties have also been used as tool against $$$$$ in this dirty game.

    Afghan people are tribal in nature and centuries far from modern civilization, live in stone ages therefore, have been fighting with their enemies. They have never accepted foreign intruders.

    whereas, the majority of the people living in Pakistan are Indian origin. Historically, our origin accept foreign intruders for a long time. Our feudals are always ready to give bath to dogs of white skin rulers.

    Our common public like to polish the shoes and serve tribe heads and feudals.

    (exeptions are there say 5%),

    Pakistan has been destabilised due to 59 years old policies adopted since 1952 after assasination of Liaqat Ali Khan.

    Atom Bomb can not save Pakistan. If so, why Pakistan is facing present situation.(terrorism, economic collaps etc.)

    Unless we change our main policies/strategies, it is impossible to save Pakistan and emerge as developed/civilised nation.

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 8:30 #
  12. 2011pakistan, much of what you state above is true enough, alas, including your reminder that after the great Liaqat Ali Khan's death our country drifted into some no-man's- land of governance. Still, I do not give up hope for the future of Pakistan. On the contrary, the cruel state of affairs prevalent here now has served to jolt us awake. The day the sleep has been rubbed out of our eyes, we shall once again be on the right path again.

    BTW: neither your comment nor mine on Al Faath Continues were accepted by the thread. Any idea why?

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 10:08 #
  13. Just_one
    Member

    @MG

    "The lying, killing, hypocritical west is not invincible."

    So the computer you are using to communicate these ideas is the result of "lying, killing, hypocri[sy]"? No honest search for the truth, no free pursuit of science, no sincere efforts on the part of countless scientists and intellectuals, went into it? And I only mentioned one scientific invention out of thousands upon thousands!

    West is not evil as a whole. In many ways, they provide examples to the rest of the world, in terms of democracy, rule of law, independent institutions, rights for different communities, and above all, freedom of conscience. Being balanced is very important.

    We need to concentrate on our own problems. We need to love the world, all human beings. We have to develop healthy mindsets geared for progress and exploration of the world, not entangled into "Us vs them", Islam vs the west.

    Fact is, the latter has brought us to this stage.

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 10:14 #
  14. toamin
    member

    Just_One

    Good point, I'm sure Mirza Ghalib would be the best person here to enlighten on this question of yours :)

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 10:19 #
  15. scandinavian
    Member

    @Just_one

    "West is not evil as a whole. In many ways, they provide examples to the rest of the world, in terms of democracy, rule of law, independent institutions, rights for different communities, and above all, freedom of conscience. Being balanced is very important."

    Right, off course they are not all evil - especially not against their own kin, but they do practice double standards i.e. one set of rule for themselves (the good ones) and another set of "rules" for the third world through different channels and tools.

    "We need to concentrate on our own problems. We need to love the world, all human beings. We have to develop healthy mindsets geared for progress and exploration of the world, not entangled into "Us vs them", Islam vs the west."

    Agreed, BUT we need not to be babble happy and believe in the "pure and good nature" of the West. We need to be alert and we need more people to people contact to convince the common man that we also want peace - just like them.

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 12:16 #
  16. NNL
    member

    Lagta hai koi apni Citizenship halal kar raha hai. :-)

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 14:36 #
  17. West...the colonizing forces as ever had been the most cruel for humanity that existed beyond their reach and knowledge labeling them as 'savages'. Continents were subjected to selective genocide and repopulated with the 'white supremacy'. Countries you all know like Australis, NewZealand, Alaska, N.America, South America etc.

    That genocide is a sort of outdated now and a bad choice too cuz, when Afghanistan and Pakistan are 'a concern' for these neocons who are supportive of a Hindu India (A name coined by the british) that period of colonization is over. By building fortresses and 'green zones' you will be subject to fear of existence in a foreign land based on a false pretext...continue mates. Another shameful downfall is in the waiting as a 'drop scene'! End to the false war on terror drama.

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 15:00 #
  18. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    http://www.ericmargolis.com/political_commentaries/a-real-pullout-or-a-shell-game.aspx

    War is waged to achieve political objectives, not to kill enemies. In this sense, the United States has lost the ten-year Afghan conflict, its longest war.

    Afghanistan remains the “graveyard of empires.”

    War is waged to achieve political objectives, not to kill enemies. In this sense, the United States has lost the ten-year Afghan conflict, its longest war.

    America, for all its B-1 heavy bombers, strike fighters, missiles, helicopter gunships and drones, armor, super electronics, spies in the sky and all the other high tech weapons of modern war has failed to defeat some 30,000 tribal fighters with nothing more than small arms and legendary valor.......

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 15:04 #
  19. I absolutely endorse the following:

    - AR's last paragraph above on the legendary valour of the Afghan Resistance since the days of Alexander the Great.

    - To the question addressed to me concerning the west and their legendary "achievements", I think both Scandinavian and Mirza Sahib have supplied excellent answers there. I'll just add one thing, specially addressed to Salam, the way I was taught things, not one thing the west entity has ever done so far has been for the benefit of mankind, but wholly and solely for their own profit and comfort.

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 19:03 #
  20. Just_one
    Member

    @Scandinavian,

    What you have listed are ills of state, not necessarily the west. States and kingdoms are by definition amoral entities, as long as we don't have a world system. The plundering, the enslaving, the ethnic cleansing have been practiced by different empires, including the Muslim empires of the past.

    To me what is important is that voices for the good of humanity, the aid to starving Africans, the talk about one world, the BILLIONS in aid pouring in Pakistan and other countries during floods and other disasters, are also hallmarks of the west.

    We have made our "red crescent" to counter their "red cross" - but our "crescent" only seems to see Muslims as victims of disasters.

    There are many facets of a society, and in abundant majority, west is ahead of us by a long margin. That explains their success to actually practice the "double standards" on a much larger scale than we can do - just in Afghanistan and Kashmir.

    Posted 11 months ago on 29 Jun 2011 22:08 #
  21. Just_one
    Member

    @MG,

    "I'll just add one thing, specially addressed to Salam, the way I was taught things, not one thing the west entity has ever done so far has been for the benefit of mankind, but wholly and solely for their own profit and comfort. "

    Even as the above is directed to Salam, I would like to comment on it.

    Just look at the inventions and breakthroughs in the medical field - they are benefiting the whole of humanity. Many of us might not have been alive to discuss things on here were it not for the immunization techniques which shielded us from fatal infections during our childhood.

    All is well that ends well. A tree is known by its fruits.

    When an Ibn Hashim re-invents the Camera Obscura, or when Ibn-e-Sina writes treaties on medicine, that is the hallmark of the great golden age of Muslims and its contributions to the world, yet when a western scientist spends days and night working on a project, it is something only driven out of greed and selfishness?

    Being an Electrical Engineer, what I know of science tells me that NO invention, no discovery, no breakthrough in knowledge is preceded by solely selfishness. The base of every innovation is an honest search for truth on the part of a person or persons.

    To me what matters is the "honest search for truth" part. We can cultivate it in our society only on the basis of:

    1) Freedom of conscience.

    2) Freedom of thought.

    3) Freedom of expression.

    We basically have none to the extent that should be present.

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 8:55 #
  22. toamin
    member

    Freedom of thought... try expressing thoughts on Holocaust :)

    Freedom of expression... let women choose the dress they want to wear

    Freedom of conscience.. is this a new baby born recently? I thought the mother was already dead?

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 11:13 #
  23. scandinavian
    Member

    @Just_One

    I am not trying to shift the focus away from our own misdeeds. We have the misdeeds in abundance and we are to be blamed for the misery we have put upon ourselves.

    We cannot praise everything from the West either. It is true that their states have not clean intentions, but so haven't either their intelligentsia and media in general. The media promotes news items that fit in their world in spite of having a "free media" they haven't been able to act freely simply because they will loose their jobs or marginalized. The same goes for their intelligentsia. They are also afraid of choosing the "wrong" side and hence most of them prefer to shut up and sing the melody of the establishment. That's a FACT!

    I am all with Salam, They have a selective freedom of speech etc.

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 11:29 #
  24. I do not know where some people go to find justification for unending praise for the west and only harsh words of condemnation for the Muslims, etc. History cannot be the source because history teaches us that no people on earth have such blood on their hands as the westerners do. Champion killers they have been all along. They stripped the rest of the world of their wealth, down to the identity of the people they conquered, when they were not simply busy genociding them out of their lives. Then then used that wealth to build up their own little haven of comfort and peace. Whatever they might have discovered in medicine, for instance, belongs by right to the rest of humanity. Our money, our lives were used to fund their research, their science. And then they turned round and made us pay astronomic sums to make use of the said discoveries in countries which barely had enough to eat as it is, etc.

    This is absolutely my last word on it: Those who destroyed the native Americans in both parts of the continent, who eliminated the Tasmanians to the last man, destroyed the Aborigines and the Maoris, turned the South Sea Islands from paradise into hell, enslaved black Africa, took practically all the Muslim countries into captivity, turned the vast Chinese population into opium-smoking addicts, etc., etc. were all from the west - and we are supposed to think of them as great people with a record of human rights and God knows what else. We Muslims are practially saints one and all compared to them.

    No, what I was taught about the west seems to be very much to the point. And I might think human rights and all those much vaunted freedoms make some sense the day Palestine and Kashmir are set free from their chains and the wars against the Muslims end and the mighty continent of Africa comes into its own at long last. Until then, no one should try and plead with me to be "fair" to the west or whatever.

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 12:45 #
  25. Mirza Ghalib
    Very true indeed. All what you said is an unforgetable part as history of mankind. Those who committed the most crimes against humanity (and are still busy doing the same) have created diversions like the human rights organization and similar others with the same outcome, etc and that is to keep us occupied.

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 16:23 #
  26. Just_one
    Member

    @Scandinavian,

    You said it. We, and we alone, are responsible for our ills.

    So our energies must be concentrated on solving our own problems and correcting our own misdeeds.

    Nobody said west is perfect; nothing is. But regarding internal issues, they are far, far ahead of us in a positive manner. It is only an honest and brave admission of reality, which some fear making.

    Just for example, you said in the west intellectuals and journalists fear ISOLATION or MARGINALIZATION.

    Here in Pakistan they face MURDER - Saleem Shahzad. Javed Ghamidi, an Islamic scholar, has run away to Malaysia. Many other journalists have been killed and many are threatened.

    See? We are stuck up in the basic problems. We have yet to figure out what is right and what is wrong - thus our battle is between right and wrong, rather than right or left. Sounds familiar?

    Defensive, insecure, anti-western mentality will not take us anywhere.

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 17:02 #
  27. Just_one
    Member

    @MG,

    "Then then used that wealth to build up their own little haven of comfort and peace. Whatever they might have discovered in medicine, for instance, belongs by right to the rest of humanity. Our money, our lives were used to fund their research, their science. And then they turned round and made us pay astronomic sums to make use of the said discoveries in countries which barely had enough to eat as it is, etc. "

    How come they were able to come from afar and steal your "wealth"?

    How did they attain such "might"? On the basis of their technology and scientific and intellectual advancements.

    So their progress proceeds their conquests. Your equation doesn't tally.

    And if their scientific progress is dependent on the supposed wealth of yours, what did you make out of that wealth? Why did that wealth not used to fund your science?

    Giving credit where credit is due is intellectual honesty.

    No attempt should be made to steal other people's achievements.

    The Muslim world in the golden age of Islam did advances in science. I argue as vehemently with western racists who put down the contribution of the Muslim world and allege that it was only due to their conquests.

    The black Africans were enslaved by all, what about the tradition of castration of black male guards of the Arabs' harem?

    What about the conquests of Mehmood Ghazani and plundering of Hindu temples?

    Who conquered the world form Spain to India?

    The crimes of the western powers are exposed by the westerns. We should have similar courage to expose our crimes because we have better access to them.

    Every power, whenever had the chance, conquered and enslaved other peoples. We need to clear about the history. Nobody is saint, and certainly not the Muslims. Muslims have been their own worse enemies.

    Maybe, Buddhists can claim to be saints.

    Human rights organizations are a good effort, thanks to them you know the crimes of western governments. The coordinated relief efforts between countries is also laudable, the people who get relief during floods and disasters, would be more than thankful to them.

    Palestine and Kashmir issues are political ones. Bosnian Muslims were given freedom because it suited the western powers, angering Israel does not favor America - and American attitude in Israel's case is shameless and criminal to say the least.

    But it's not west vs Muslims, the world does not function like this and it should not be viewed from this narrow minded mentality.

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 17:23 #
  28. Sorry, you do not understand anything I say. We are not on the same wavelength. Let's jsut say you are right and I am wrong. I am not nota to carry on fighting you to see the light.

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 18:38 #
  29. @Mirza Ghalib
    Brother, I do miss nota Bhai a lot(true). Both nota and you actually are the prominent pkp top brass.(and a source of heartburn/indegestion for the rival blog/s). You inculding, our loyal intellecual friends here are actually the SPIRIT of pkpdiscuss.

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 18:58 #
  30. Obama is going to hand over...what and to whom? Who said come over and occupy a country on false pretexts?

    Afghans are in control and they are aware of what to take over and when. Obama is free to talk about fortified fortresses built for american control...but for how long and till when?

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 19:16 #
  31. Mirza Sahib, thanks. I'll not conceal the fact that I miss nota and shimatoree a great deal, too. I hope they are happy wherever they are and doing well.

    As for Afghanistan, you said it in one sentence: "Afghans are in control and they are aware of what to take over and when."

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 20:11 #
  32. scandinavian
    Member

    @Just_One

    "Defensive, insecure, anti-western mentality will not take us anywhere."

    Anti-western mentality? I think I made it quite clear the difference between the western states and the common man. I see no quarrel with the common man, then how can I be anti-western. Having lived in the West for decades would have been impossible or at least would have shown double standards from my side provided I hated the West or was having an anti-western mentality. Don't make it the usual way i.e. either you are with us or against us or either we can become the slaves of the West or we can become their adversaries i.e. wage war against them. NO, this is not the right approach. We can criticize them, have a dialog, interaction and thus show OUR point of view through a proper/intellectual argumentation. We cannot demand respect. If we want respect we have to earn the respect and that can only be through the intellectual interaction as EQUALS. At least I refuse to be seen as second to anybody!

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 20:53 #
  33. We cannot demand respect. If we want respect we have to earn the respect and that can only be through the intellectual interaction as EQUALS. At least I refuse to be seen as second to anybody!

    l love the way you said it brother. I wish all Pakistanis would express themselves the 'proud' way you do. It is not easy to come by for all Pakistanis..who are some how bound to commit injustice and that is what they do. As a result the filth of our society is in power!

    Posted 11 months ago on 30 Jun 2011 21:16 #
  34. Just_one
    Member

    @MG,

    As you wish. We certainly are not on the same wavelength.

    However, I understand that you do not want to get into a quarrel. But intellectual arguments never lead to quarrels. The quarrel I have engaged in was when the poster asked for it and got what he was asking for. And that was certainly not "light".

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 8:23 #
  35. Just_one
    Member

    @Scandinavian,

    Don't take it personal. I made a general statement when I said "anti-western" mentality leads to nothing. This statement is as good as saying, "anti-Japanese" mentality will not get us any where. That is, shaping your worldview on reactionism and division, will lead to no where.

    So you misunderstood what I am saying. I am advocating no dichotomy. My argument is not political at all, and it concerns in no way how we should "talk to them".

    To me west is simply just another region of the world like Africa, East Asia or South America (which btw is also west but maybe not the "evil west".)

    I praise the good of it, and criticize the bad of it. However, I believe it is more useful to criticize the bad in you because you have power to correct your wrongs rather than correcting others' wrongs.

    You are right, respect is earned - through actions not talk. Making societies who respect their individuals, giving them proper life and rights, will earn you respect. It does not simply come from "talk" with no substance.

    Don't confuse my argument with the political situation of today. It's totally another thing.

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 8:38 #
  36. Where do all the politically correct posters go to get their grooming? Seems to me they've been coached by the Clinton team. In the name of "objectivity" and no doubt also the "three freedoms", nothing is ever said against the west, anything against Pakistan is always welcome on the grounds that lack of charity always begins at home. That shows how adult and "in" we are.

    I wish people would stop all this and begin using their own heads instead. Or they've probably forgotten they were ever gifted with such a thing as well. Grudgingly, we concede this or that failing to the west, quickly to skip the part that makes them the most unbearable: their present wholly unjustified wars against the Muslim nations. To hear these posters, 1) the wars, what wars? 2) Ah, those wars, well the Muslims deserved them, didn't they? 3) Well, what do you expect, the west worked hard to achieve their military supremacy. Proves their general superiority. All your own fault finally.

    BTW: When some of us talk about the west, we mean: US, Canada, Europe (minus Russia), Australia, New Zealand, Israel and all their various allies. Everything else belongs to the Free World which we believe will come out victorious from these present wars.

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 13:31 #
  37. Just_one
    Member

    @MG,

    No intellectual feat of the west excuses America's (or any country's) abysmal track record of subjugating different countries to war and killing millions in the process.

    I use my head and see things clearly - separately. Matters should not be confused. To condemn American foreign policy, I don't have to condemn everything western. I don't have to take credit of their positive achievements and put it in my pocket, for me to condemn western behavior with Palestine, for example.

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 14:17 #
  38. Good, one point to you, poster. There'd be a lot more to say, but silence is the best medicine.

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 15:13 #
  39. Just_one
    Member

    @MG,

    We must also recognize that our own track record of human rights is abysmal. For example, East Pakistan, Baluchistan, FATA. And this is only mentioning Pakistan. It will need posts upon posts to enumerate the abuses in the whole Muslim world.

    So it depends on who gets the chance. What I highlight is that events like Saleem Shahzad murder, or intellectuals like Ghamidi running away to different countries, or events like Christian churches being burnt in Gojra, etc, are something which is largely a thing of the past in the west. We need to concentrate on these problems more than thinking about how to tackle the west. If we solve these problems, we would not need to tackle anyone, because we would become powerful anyways.

    Our misery is of our own making.

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 16:56 #
  40. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    Justone says "events like Christian churches being burnt in Gojra, etc, are something which is largely a thing of the past in the west."

    Not quite. It happens in the West in this day and age but in a subtle way. The military industrial complex that runs these countries does things the same way as the caveman did eons ago. Please look at this excerpt from Dr.Murad Hoffman, former German Ambassador who became a Muslim and wrote several books including Islam the alternative.

    Let us now take a good look at the record of that marvelous, self-appointed center of rationality, the enlightened Western world. Since the 18th century, in contrast to the high ideals pronounced and exported, what one discovers in terms of actual behavior is really highly disturbing:

    Slave-trading and apartheid; two savage world wars; Stalinist massacres and the Nazi holocaust; ethnic (in reality,religious) cleansing in Bosnia, and atomic warfare against civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. About half billion perished in these man made disasters originated by West.

    These disasters were the bloodiest the world has ever seen. But even if Western people were not at war with each other, they have behaved violently against nature: against animals, plants and even minerals- to the point that the destruction of resources and environmental disasters like air pollution threaten the survival of mankind.

    None of the bloody excesses I mentioned took place in the Muslim world; and yet the West, in spite of such a record, has the nerve to ask the rest of the world to follow its example and to deny not only the existence, but also the possibility, of an alternative.

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 17:48 #
  41. Just_one
    Member

    @AR,

    The Nazism was an anti-thesis of western system and it was wiped out by western states.

    So was Communism.

    I am saying do you find events like Mosque burning, killings of minorities on a large scale, denying them equal rights to worship, in the west?

    Do you find journalists getting killed in the west?

    Do you find covert military operations like Baluchistan?

    Remember, I am talking about the internal matters, and not interested in what America is doing in Iraq. That is a separate issue. Switzerland or Germany, for example, are not involved in foreign invasions and have all the strengths of the western democracies.

    The rights that western countries have given to their people make these countries strong. Our people do not enjoy the same rights, heck, it doesn't get close.

    There is a reason why millions of Muslims have moved to the west and adopted western countries and hardly any movement in the opposite direction. Why?

    How can you think of taking on societies to which your own people flock to when getting the chance? How do you compete with them? Not by cooking up alternative systems in the air, but by giving the same rights to your people.

    By all means, develop alternatives. Where is the example?

    We don't necessarily have to take the tough road. if the west has invented a computer, for example, we don't have to re-invent it by going through the same lengthy period of research. We can simply learn the existing knowledge and try to develop on it.

    Similarly, if the western world have developed successful social and economic systems, we need to adopt their virtues. We don't to act like obstinate kids.

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 19:04 #
  42. Hang on, try and read what AR has written so rightly above with due attention and, perhaps several times even. You will find all the answers needed to the points you raise.

    Also, do try for once to leave details and minor events behind, rise above the petty and take a look at the world from a higher perspective.

    Then you might just about see what AR and I myself in a different approach, have been trying to say.

    Furthermore, do work on improving your knowledge about what's really happening in the west. There are more political assassinations there every day that passes than you seem to know about. Human rights is a non-starter. it's just a term to cover a mulitude of sins like, for instance in Libya and Iraq and, last but not least, the entire so-called "successful social and economic systems" of the west are in the gutter now. Or hadn't you heard about that either?

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 20:17 #
  43. Just_one
    Member

    @MG,

    I have extracted as much as it should be from AR's post.

    In fact, I took on it lightly. Because it would derail the thread taking on all the points (if the thread is not already derailed, to which I concede partial guilt).

    The German convert means to say "none of these excesses" happening in the Muslim world means anything? Millions of Hindus were butchered during Muslim conquests in India, does it count?

    The good German forgot the Japanese systematic cruelties committed against fellow Asians, to spare the good old east, but anyways.

    What political assassinations in the west you are talking about? Especially involving state actors?

    Are you denying that there is freedom of speech and expression in the west more than anything remotely close to it in the Muslim world?

    Do you deny that journalists are much freer to work in the west than in the Muslim world?

    Are you denying that people have better access to justice in the western world compared to Muslim world?

    Are you denying that corruption in the western world is almost zero compared to the Muslim world?

    Are you denying that Muslims are trying to flock to the west and not vice versa despite the so-called recession or whatever?

    Do you deny that western countries top the chart when it comes to human rights, life expectancy, employment, literacy, quality of living to this day despite any recent economic problem?

    I know you are allergic to the term "human rights", but for once, understand what it means. It was due to this sense of human rights which made millions of westerns come onto the streets to protest against Iraq war. They are certainly not made to "cover" those crimes.

    When will victory for us mean OUR RISE, rather than others' demise? Keep hoping that all the Chaudris of the village die so that the number dar can become the village head. Good luck.

    And why the hypocrisy? China, I reckon, is a hero of the Hizbul Tehreer type Muslims.

    How many were killed by Mao? What cruelties were committed, and still are to ethnic minorities, to make the modern China whose back you are trying to use in fighting with the evil west?

    I think trying to sound condescending will not lend weight to your argument. I don't see what is not there no matter how hard you try to make me see it. You have to produce it first for me to see it.

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 20:54 #
  44. Condescending? Well, well. All those questions you asked above starting do you deny this, that or the other. To all of them I say: I do, I most definitely do. Except about the bit concerning Muslims flocking to the west which could be expanded to Third World citizens flocking that way. The answer to that is more often than not the attraction of hard currency.

    I'm not going into the HR matter again. The example you chose to cite has nothing to do with it in any case. As for not seeing, doesn't surpirse me in the least. To be able to see something, one needs eyes first of all. If someone is so blinded by the glamour of distant parts and so disrespectful of where they originated from, will anything ever become clear to them whatever anyone says? Inferiority complex and emigrant mentality dressed up in fancy words.

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 22:00 #
  45. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    Just_One,

    "I am saying do you find events like Mosque burning, killings of minorities on a large scale, denying them equal rights to worship, in the west?

    Do you find journalists getting killed in the west?

    Do you find covert military operations like Baluchistan?

    West has come to a point in history after colonialization of 3 huge continents- North and South America and Australia that they CANNOT run their countries based on killings and genocide. So they devised a new strategy to get sophisticated slaves as immigrants. They need labor, manpower to run their economies and now they have laws that say EOE- Equal opprtunity Employer. This was not based on love of humaniity or fear of God Almighty but solely on materialistic pursuits. If America starts persecuting minorities like African- Americans, the whole country will fall apart and destroyed and America will loose "loyal" customers/consumers.

    The rate of murders of journalists in Muslim country pales into insignificance compared to daily murders of innocents including journalists in New York and Moscow. Please look at local news from New York city after a typical week end.

    "There is a reason why millions of Muslims have moved to the west and adopted western countries and hardly any movement in the opposite direction. Why? "

    Simple. Loyal slaves. The happiness is superficial. Rampant crime, broken marriages, abnormal life styles, suicides and murders are waiting for immigrants for their "American dream". They have shiny cars, 3 car garages and mansions but no happiness and spritual salvation.

    In reply to your false notion that Muslims killed Hindus. It seems to be based on history written by Orientalists. There were very few such instances when both Hindu and Muslim citizens were killed but still today Hindus are overwhelming majority. Contrast this with Americas and Australia where the native population was decimated and is almost extinct. No doubt,West is attracting immigrants and these neo slaves do not understand that West is trying to build new civilization on the bones of countless million of natives that perished in forced colonialization.

    Posted 10 months ago on 01 Jul 2011 22:54 #
  46. Just_one
    Member

    @MG,

    You are into full denial mood, denying facts that can be easily confirmed by a click of a mouse. And yet you are questioning my possession of eyes - which tells the chutzpa a Muslim in denial can harbor.

    You have failed to address the arguments I have raised. You have denied ground realities. You have left no space to maneuver as you have left the ring.

    Wishing does not change anything. Doing work on the ground does. Muslim world is way behind the west in practically all important fronts and denial is not the solution to its problems.

    Hard currency and prosperity are interlinked. And it's more than that actually. Money does not grow on trees, it is churned out by hardworking societies.

    A tree is known by its fruit. The western fruits are feeding families in Pakistan.

    BTw, I live in Pakistan, thus suffer from no suppressed inferiority complex, such that I need to deny the truth to satisfy myself. I am free of the psychological burden felt by some Muslims living in the west, feeding on the west on one hand and hating it to core on the other. This either disconnects them from reality at best, or makes us witness the horrors of 9/11, 7/7, etc, at worse.

    I move on AR's posts, coz he is upfront and giving me something to respond to.

    Posted 10 months ago on 02 Jul 2011 0:13 #
  47. Just_one
    Member

    @AR,

    You are engaging in cynicism.

    You are explaining the world like a Communist, based on one dimensional thinking.

    There are many factors which led the west to what it is now, and not just materialism. There have been countless rights movements, struggles and civil wars that have changed facts on the ground.

    Your analysis is just so narrow minded. This is expected. Denying that successful model exists in the world which is leading to people's prosperity, giving equal rights to all, opening borders for people form poor countries to find work, is mandatory for you or how else would you keep your hypothetical model, which finds no successful implementation, superior in your mind?

    I would say the western materialism is then better than the "spiritualism" which GIVES NOTHING. If "spirituality" renders societies like Afghanistan, materialism is better. And I am not saying it for fancy cars and luxuries living, I am saying it for the disease, violence, mayhem, misery, absolute reduction of human beings to animals that we encounter in such "spiritual" societies.

    You know what? I have seen Afghan immigrants trying to find food from the garbage of the quality I would not give it my dog. That's the model "Talibs" gave for you.

    Do you know what asylum laws in UK entail? Or on what spirit they are based? This is simply not about intake of workers. The asylum policy is based on altruistic motives. The same is true for much of the west.

    Do you know how much role civil rights organizations play in shaping immigration policies and why western racist don't like them?

    It's simply not the simplistic case of "mental slaves" being churned out. There are MULTIPLE factors shaping societies.

    Your analysis is simply based on envy, denial and mandatory pursuit of ensuring the rejection of successful models that challenge your hypothetical model of society.

    You are talking about common crime in NY. America is notorious for crime but that is due to factors which are quite unrelated to our discussion. Some of the European countries have the least crime rates.

    I am talking about agencies killing journalists for saying stuff. I am talking about people getting murdered in broad day light for making a statement about a law. I am talking about the disappearance of people by security forces. I am talking about a system where police tortures suspects to death on daily basis.

    "Simple. Loyal slaves. The happiness is superficial. Rampant crime, broken marriages, abnormal life styles, suicides and murders are waiting for immigrants for their "American dream". They have shiny cars, 3 car garages and mansions but no happiness and spritual salvation."

    Having to feed one's baby, and finding good employment to ensure that, is not superficial. Ensuring good education of your children is not superficial either.

    Ensuring healthy food on the table - all these things are very important. Western societies largely ensure the dignity of humanity by providing these facilities; don't make fun of them, you will know their importance if you imagine yourself in the shoes of a person who has to feed his children but does not have enough money to buy food.

    You are going into useless territory. Religious feelings are a separate, individual matter. By all means believe in whatever you want and practice it. Who is stopping you? Does the west stops you from going to a mosque or church?

    Materialism - first become a syniasi or a darwaish and start spending your life in a hut and then by all means blow materialism into bits. I will respect you.

    But as we speak, you are using a fine technology called computer, on which you are crying about materialism!

    The new western born movement of Hizbul Tehreet Type Muslims is so hypocritical! It would be great if it were spiritual, problem is it is not.

    You won't believe the orientalists. You won't believe the Indian histories. You won't even believe the dissident Muslim historians. You will believe only those who make the Muslim conquest of India to be all rosy and lovely for the Hindus. This means justifying imperialism in one breath, while abusing the west for engaging in the same in the other!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus

    Do you think America is wrong to have invaded Afghanistan? So were Muslims wrong to invade India.

    Do you think Afghans have the right to fight back and when they do you hail them as freedom fighters? So did the Hindu Indians had the right to fight back and were freedom fighters when they did that.

    Do you think Americans have committed countless cruelties, in this day and age, where it had to fear media exposing it, and that thousands upon thousands have been killed, tortured, raped, misplaced, dismembered? So were, in those days gone by, Hindus were subjected to countless cruelties, leading to million upon millions of death, rapes, looting, destruction of temples.

    It's just a given. There is no if and but. No hypothetical call of some Muslim girl in captivity - all this is one sided bull, just like America pursuing OBL and using it to justify Afghan war.

    Agreed? You should. Let's start from our own house. Charity begins at home. Before mentioning Native Americans, let us mention our victims. Let's apologize for the conquest of India, if we want Americans to apologize for the conquest of America.

    Let's become the model for the world, my friend. Forget what America is doing, think about what we are doing.

    Posted 10 months ago on 02 Jul 2011 1:05 #
  48. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    JO,

    Do you think America is wrong to have invaded Afghanistan? So were Muslims wrong to invade India.

    There is no comparison between the war criminals and Muslims. Muslims never colonized any lands. They always considered the indigenous inhabitants as equals and did not look down at the natives. Hence they never exterminated any local people. There were some mistakes done by Muslims in India but it is no way close to genocide conducted by West in the so called war on terror. And the notion of Muslim conquering lands by force is absurd when you look at the largest Muslim country in the world today-Indonesia. Not a single Muslim soldier ever set his foot in that archipelago. The orientalists are dumbfounded as to how Islam spread like that in Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, Phillipines.

    And never ever try to say that technology is the monopoly of West. Technology industry would not exist today if it was not for the contribution of Muslim scientists. The introduction of zero and Arabic numerals laid the foundation of modern science.

    You may not agree but look at this excerpt from Carly Fiorina, former CEO of HP who is asking corporate America to use Islamic civilization as model for success. And that civilization was based on Quran, Sunnah and Shariah. It is the same one that Taliban is fighting to establish and that will again usher in success and properity in both material and spritual domain.

    Posted 10 months ago on 02 Jul 2011 6:20 #
  49. scandinavian
    Member

    @Just_One

    It is you who has a one dimensional approach, and it is us who are representing the multi-faceted analysis of the West.

    "1. Self-Censorship by Journalists

    Initially, there is tremendous self-censorship by journalists.

    For example, several months after 9/11, famed news anchor Dan Rather told the BBC that American reporters were practicing "a form of self-censorship":
    There was a time in South Africa that people would put flaming tires around peoples' necks if they dissented. And in some ways the fear is that you will be necklaced here, you will have a flaming tire of lack of patriotism put around your neck.

    Now it is that fear that keeps journalists from asking the toughest of the tough questions... And again, I am humbled to say, I do not except myself from this criticism.

    What we are talking about here - whether one wants to recognize it or not, or call it by its proper name or not - is a form of self-censorship."

    Read the rest here:

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_mediacontrol81.htm

    Posted 10 months ago on 02 Jul 2011 21:59 #
  50. Just_one
    Member

    @AR,

    There is something called hypocrisy. Preferring one thing for yourself and another thing for others.

    If foreign invasion is wrong, then it is wrong in all cases. Period.

    I am not talking about conversions to Islam. I am not talking about how Muslims in Indonesia.

    The Muslims invaded Inda and this is a fact. If you condemn America for invading Afghanistan, then you should condemn the Muslims who invaded India.

    And nobody stated that what Muslims did in India justifies what Americans did to native Americans - the thought is preposterous.

    But charity begins at home. If you are really concerned about victims of invasion and massacres, then first talk about your own victims. If you don't do that, then it means you are not really interested in human welfare but only in political point scoring.

    Posted 10 months ago on 03 Jul 2011 12:21 #

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