piranditta
Member
Wow!
oooooobama just fired his top general for "freedom of speech".....
must follow story, a lot to learn for us from this incident...
civilian rule governs the military mind and tounge and body!
and guess what how power full a news article can be....this is called the power of the media....
power of the media...
wow!
There is a thread on power/freedom of speech on this blog... it should be a nice addition to that thread... lol
piranditta
Member
there is more to learn in this .....some one must cut and paste the rolling stones magazine article for all of us to read.....
Story of General McCrystal is a story of a soldier in command who is such a high ranking officer. He befriended with some unknown person. He gleefully tried to be Chummy with the Journalist Michael Hasting of Rolling Stone Magazine and having an interaction with him for reasonably long time; took him to be his man of confidence and a friend. Military men they do have a habit of using slangs and slurry tone in communication--- which is quite common.
But; you may be sent home being loose lipped; if you are an American General.
I personally think that where as General Crystal conduct cannot be said as conduct unbecoming of a General but his punishment is something which is overdone.
Order of his termination as a top commander passed by Obama certainly does not reflect that justice has been done but it is politically motivated termination.
Obama has made McCrystal a scapegoat to make up his personal credibility that he seems lost during this period of turmoil and series of setbacks that America is facing at home as well as on US foreign policy front.
(Edited)
SugerMint
Member
Well he may have a point but this is what happen when you disregard chain of command in any professional army. Only in banana republics boys in brown have more power then an elected commander in chief.
This whole thing back fired as he did not gauge the impact of his actions. This was a deliberate attempt at General's end to mock down his commander in chief as the rolling stone guy was invited for a meeting all the way in France and they took him for drinks where he gave this interview. So now he is felling the music.
Suger Mint,
Whereas General McCrystal seems to be a down to the earth a field commander who would not dither to lead his troops form the front and is not shy of living and sharing a life on battle ground of even very low ranking soldiers.
You never know that God might have saved him for his slips of tongue (bad may be)from the humiliation which is later destined for America in this Phony war of Terror; that million have perished. Maimed and their lands reduced to rubbles at the hands of US forces.
Regards
There is a difference between Freedom of Expression and Insubordination.
Had there been no insubordination in Pakistan, there would have been no Martial Law since 1958.
America wins or looses in Afghanistan, the protocol of Service Code would be protected and defended.
A serving Military General has no right to criticize a democratically elected Civil Government.
@Aay Khokar
Obama has made McCrystal a scapegoat to make up his personal credibility that he seems lost during this period of turmoil and series of setbacks that America is facing at home as well as on US foreign policy front.
He really did made him a scape goat! Its the American Military might that America is feared in the world not because of their sham democracies sold out to the top bidders each election year.
toamin
member
semirza sb,
i agree with your analysis on mccrystal about obama making him a scapegoat
differences were obvious from day one when mccrystal & team were demanding troop surge while obama questioning the demand, after a lot of pressure from military side obama caved in but on the condition to announce return of troops by july 2011
now that mccrystal was used as scape goat and petreas demoted (from regional commander to a field commander) they are pressurizing pak army to launch operation in north wazir, which seems unlikely due to already over stretch military in fata area, plus increasing number of captains/majors resigning/refusing to serve...
Semirza,
Whereas the ‘wise crack’ and casual insults to civilian authority in private with no supervision of the top Brass are the common military norms. It serve as safety valve to fume out the military desperation and fatigues pressures of soldiers---- of all ranks.
This is not a big issue------. Thanks that you agree with my views that in order to re-assert his power; Obama has gone one step ahead and made McCrystal a scapegoat and fired, the most powerful General to be known as another macho in the history like Harry Trueman.
Earlier on Back in the days of Douglas MacArthur, I imagine, the General and his circle of staff officers were in the habit of trading wise-**** remarks and demeaning comments about their wimpy civilian superiors back in Washington—Harry Truman and his staff.
The humble Trueman ex-haberdasher fired the gilded General from his command of American (and United Nations) forces in Korea. He did it because MacArthur was determined to make all-out war against China and was openly expressing to supercede the President.
Regards
Please read the second para of above as:
This is not a big issue------. Thanks that you agree with my views that in order to re-assert his power; Obama has gone one step ahead and made McCrystal a scapegoat. He fired the most powerful General supposedly with an aim to be known as another macho in the history like old Harry Trueman.
(Edited for clarity)
toamin
member
khokar sb
i missed that scapegoat point came from you -sorry
i agree with this analysis
zia m
Member
Macho or not, Obama did the right thing.Americans honour their war heroes but they want their armed forces completely under civilian control.Petraeus has the same policy as McChrystal.
I don't see any big change.
Only Americans/naturalized Americans won't but other's do. These others are never considered due to western myopic vision always propagated as villains contrary to ground realities.
American machoism was laid down on the floor, never to rise again there in Vietnam. 80.000 plus mourned each year (not counting the missing in action) according to American static’s. A declared defeat should have served as a lesson; a final showdown for a self declared super power nailed down kneeling and acknowledging defeat at the hands of 'farmers'.
Afghans are no different than farmers. Only they grow something that is bringing in more revenue at par with oil and the main reason Americans are here! After the Second World War America has been openly associated with drug cartels and drug mafias.
The same is going on in Afghanistan. Americans with their. so and so's are laid down waiting for some decent exit that is never to materialize. Bogged down as they are they will continue without any change in on-ground realities while shuffling of generals will continue too, but who cares........
shimatoree
Member
Regardless of the merits of the FIRING-
the FACT is that McChrystal was on the way out after he informed Obama and the Nato ministers that the situation was not good in Afghanistan.
This was Before the Rolling Stone interview and therefore all this stuff about that McChrystal was let go for the comments in the article is to say the least interesting.
The fact of the matter is that McChrystal provided a convenient excuse in a timely manner.
But the problem remains the War in Afghanistan is lost and no one wants to accept responsibility. And the one who brings BAD news gets canned.
Firing of any general is not going to cover the real story. American presence is not only after the flow of oil and gas but something that American forces have always been found to be in bed with…..you guessed right...drug and narcotics trade is worth more than Oil!...
I cannot say for certain how the attack on the World Trade center came about, but one thing I do know is that the American people would never have accepted an invasion of Afghanistan by U.S. forces had it not been for the disaster of September 11, 2001, so it is more than likely that history will reveal the 9/11 tragedy as a "contrived situation." Much to the consternation of the banks in Dubai, and the opium traders in the United States and Britain, the Taliban cleared out the warlords led by the Barakzai clan who had been pumping opium to the West and most of whom fled to Pakistan or into the mountainous sections of the country. The opium trade came to a screeching halt.
The Taliban passed a decree that anyone growing poppies or trading in opium would be shot. The warlord opium bosses scattered along with their criminal stooges. That sent the alarm bells ringing all over Westminster and New York. In Dubai, the 90 banks servicing the opium trade saw ruin staring them in the face. Something had to be done, and it was.
The United States went to war against Afghanistan, just as the British, Russians and the Persians before them. The purpose of the war, we are told, was to "root out the Taliban and their al- Qaeda terrorists." A huge squadron of bombers flew sorties around the clock and the few remaining buildings left standing in Kandahar after the war with Russia, were reduced to impressive piles of rubble.
War hawks Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney and Perle were jubilant. At home, the New York papers trumpeted the news that the U.S. had "won" the war in Afghanistan. Little did the American people know that the war had only just started. American troops will have to stay in Afghanistan for decades, to keep the opium factions apart and to ensure the smooth flow of opium through the ancient trade routes. The top military brass of Pakistan's army will benefit greatly from the cocaine flowing out of Afghanistan, even as they have always done.
That is why Pervez Musharraf was selected as our top "ally in the war against terrorism." With the Taliban gone and the Barakzai clan once again in control, the opium trade flourished in Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban and it is unclear whether the new government will try to stop or at least curtail it. We venture to suggest that under the rule imposed by the U.S., opium trade will not only regain its past production, but also actually increase the amount of raw opium produced. In its annual report on the international
drug trade, the State Department said the Taliban, driven out of power by the U.S. military in 2005, virtually eliminated opium poppy cultivation in the regions under their control.
Overall opium production fell dramatically, to about 74 tons in 2001 from about 3,656 tons in 2000 and almost all the production was in parts of Afghanistan held by the Northern Alliance, Washington's ally in the war against the Taliban. There you have it straight from the horse's mouth: Our "war on drugs" is as false as a counterfeit Federal Reserve note. While the Taliban were destroying crops and stocks of opium, the CIA was
assuring our "allies" - the so-called "War Lords," an assortment of low-life and cutthroat murdering gangsters - not to worry, they would soon be back in power.
The Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) did not try to go in and crush this Drug War Against American gang of vermin while they had a remarkable opportunity to do so. Instead, the U.S. protected the drug-dealing thugs.
Afghanistan has traditionally been one of the world's major producers of opiates, along with India, which regained its place in 2008 as top producer because of the Taliban ban. Opium is the raw material for the opiates heroin and morphine, and Afghanistan has been the major supplier of those drugs to the region and to Western Europe and the United States. A recently released U.S. report said widespread cultivation of poppies resumed in Afghanistan after the collapse of the Taliban and drug traffickers remained active in Afghanistan, this in spite of the massive on the ground presence of U.S. Armed Forces.
Although the interim authority in Kabul, the Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz puppet, Hamid Karzai (Barakzai) backed by the United States, announced its own ban on growing opium, the ban hardly ran beyond the capital and was not worth the paper it is was written on. Had Karzai tried to enforce his decree he would have been found one morning with his throat cut from ear to ear. His gangster dealers would never allow him to remain alive to interfere with their lucrative business.
Continued….P59-61. Drug War Against America by Dr. John Coleman
shimatoree
Member
Regardless of the merits of the FIRING-
the FACT is that McChrystal was on the way out after he informed Obama and the Nato ministers that the situation was not good in Afghanistan.
This was Before the Rolling Stone interview and therefore all this stuff about that McChrystal was let go for the comments in the article is to say the least interesting.
The fact of the matter is that McChrystal provided a convenient excuse in a timely manner.
But the problem remains the War in Afghanistan is lost and no one wants to accept responsibility. And the one who brings BAD news gets canned.
Salam;
Oh no; I did not put that Para again with this idea;
It is mine or yours point; does not matter. I am so happy that here on this forum; every one is found putting in his/her best effort and general trend is that people have started thinking positively, addressed others respectfully and with maturity ----which is much more a plus point.
Credit goes to the moderator; that man is doing a great service for---us all ---that people do not waffle around. Every new point added here shows that people are developing the habit of digging for the information; they do study and it is a brilliant sign toward making a vibrant society.
But sorry....In fact; the subject Para was poorly arranged and i found it confusing.
Regards
William Kristol, is the Chairman of Neoconservatives project called –‘The Project for the New American Century’ (PNAC)---- around which revolves the entire United States plans; the wars being fought at present and the planning done at Pentagon and how they must be executed. The man is of the belief that;
This 21st century belongs to America and says that; ‘The Project for the New American Century’ is an organization dedicated to certain fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; and that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle.
The Project for the New American Century intends, through issue briefs, research papers, advocacy journalism, conferences, and seminars, to explain what American world leadership entails. It will also strive to rally support for a vigorous and principled policy of American international involvement and to stimulate useful public debate on foreign and defense policy and America's role in the world.
Please link; http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html
He is also the editor of; weekly standard.
Link: http://www.weeklystandard.com/aboutus/bio_kristol.asp
telengr
Member
the funny thing is Nawaz Sharif says, Musharraf should be dealt with, like Mchrystal. So does he mean, he or zardari are leaders like Obama? ;-) (Obama has no charges of corruption against him, and his loyalty to his country is unquestioned, methods and style may be good or bad)
shimatoree
Member
If wishes were fishes- everyone would have a good FRY !
Nawaz Shareef is a very mediocre gutless and incompetent SHOPKEEPER and he cannot change that.
What he had before 1999 October 12th( 2/3rd majority)- if he had even one ounce of a brain- he could have transformed Pakistan and today we would not be in the dire situation that we are in.He blew it and he did it because he never had it in him to be a good leader.
And all the people who surround him are in the same boat.
He turned out to be third rate politician.
If anyone has any doubts- keep in mind that it was HE who selected Musharraf to be C-In-C.
telengr
Member
Totally agree with shimatoree
Nawaz Sharif was the only person in our country's history, who had everything available in his hands. But he could not give us the stability that we could have.
shimatoree
Member
telengr
Thanks.
I have been told by quite a few that why am I so uncompromising and ruthless in my approach to the problems of life and the problems facing Pakistan.
I am and have always been very concious of the dimension of TIME.
What is worth doing is worth doing NOW.
I and you have not had the opportunity and probably will not have the opportunity to change Pakistan.
Musharraf, Zardari and Nawaz Shareef have had this opportunity.
The only reason I can think of as to why they have not done what needs to be done- is to borrow a term MORONS lacking any redeeming qualities or imagination.
We know that Human life is limited in time.
The only immortality that is possible is in the hearts and minds of the people.
All you have to do is show leadership.
I guess I am expecting a genius when what we have are third rate creeps masquerading as leaders surrounded by arse licking sychophants of all kinds.
What is need of the moment- is a person committed and dedicated to help and build the country.
Where is that person ?
I am too old.
Or are we condemned to have these parasites suck our blood for ever ?
aslam786
Member
The only one to come into power in Pakistan is through blessing of establishment and we know they will support pliable shopkeeper over strong leader.
Hussain Farooqui
Member
Quite often in such big decisions, the inside and outside stories are different. There is no real expression of freedom in the West, they often hide real stories behind the scenes.
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