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Oslo attacker feared ‘Pakistanisation’ of Europe

(39 posts)
  1. khanseena1
    Member

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/216830/oslo-attacker-feared-pakistanisation-of-europe/

    Oslo attacker feared ‘Pakistanisation’ of Europe
    By Salman Siddiqui
    Published: July 25, 2011

    Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian terrorist who killed more than 90 people in two attacks in Oslo, was mortally terrified of the idea of several ‘mini Pakistans’ appearing all over the map of Europe.

    In a 1,600-page manifesto titled ‘2083: A European Declaration of Independence’, Breivik laid out a stark picture of the future of Europe, citing poor human rights in Pakistan as the fate of the continent. Norwegian authorities confirmed on Sunday that the manifesto was written by Breivik.

    In his doomsday scenario for Europe, Breivik predicts that several ‘mini-Pakistans’ would be created all over Europe by 2083, one in each country due to ‘Lebanon-style’ conflicts. “It could be similar to the division of India after World War II, with the creation of one or several Islamic ‘Pakistan’ enclaves,” he says.

    While Breivik’s rhetoric against Muslim immigration into Europe is not unusual, he cites many names that might be familiar to Pakistanis, including Allama Muhammad Iqbal and Maulana Abul Ala Maududi, as well as prominent human rights activist Hina Jilani and Dawn columnist Irfan Hussain.

    He seems to believe that Iqbal, in particular, was sympathetic to communism and views multiculturalism as a Marxist concept. He quotes Iqbal as saying “Islam equals communism plus Allah.”

    Breivik also claims that Pakistan is systematically annihilating all non-Muslim communities. He claimed that Hindu girls are being forced to convert to Islam in Sindh. In this context he even quotes Hina Jilani as saying: “Have you ever heard of an Indian Muslim girl being forced to embrace Hinduism? It’s Muslims winning by intimidation.”

    He goes on to describe the situation for Christians in Pakistan as being no better, citing Father Emmanuel Asi of the Theological Institute for Laity in Lahore as saying in 2007 that Pakistani Christians are frequently denied equal rights.

    Jamaat-e-Islami founder Abul Ala Maududi is also quoted in the manifesto, though in a manner that would imply that the stated objective of an Islamic state is to kill or subdue all non-Muslims around the world.

    Breivik seems to be a fan of Daily Times columnist Razi Azmi, whom he calls “one of the more sensible columnists of Pakistan”. He mentions one of Azmi’s pieces where the columnist asks whether it was possible to imagine a Muslim converting to Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism in a Muslim country, using it to support his view of Islam as an intolerant religion.

    He also cites Dawn’s Irfan Hussain’s column criticising Hizb u-Tahrir’s vision of a caliphate.

    His ire against Pakistanis and Muslims seems to have at least partial origin in personal experience. He speaks at length about his childhood best friend, a Pakistani Muslim immigrant to Norway who, despite having lived several years in Europe still appeared to resent Norway and Norwegian society. “Not because he was jealous… but because it represented the exact opposite of Islamic ways,” Breivik conjectures.

    The inability of Muslim immigrants to assimilate into European society seems to bother him, which he blames on Muslim parents not allowing their children to adopt European ways. He also asks why Muslim girls are considered ‘off-limits’ to everyone, including Muslim boys, and why Muslim men view ethnic Norwegian women as ‘whores’.

    He also seems to believe that the Muslims in Europe who collect government benefits view it as a form of jizya, a medieval Islamic tax charged on non-Muslim minorities.

    He rails against multiculturalism, which he blames for making immigration too easy for Muslims in Europe. “When the veil of multiculturalism disappears, it will be Pakistanis who live in London, Turks who live in Berlin, Algerians who live in Paris and Moroccans who live in Amsterdam. And then the show begins,” he says.

    That show, he says, is a dramatic demographic shift that he calls the ‘Pakistanisation of Europe’.

    Published in The Express Tribune, July 25th, 2011.

    Posted 10 months ago on 25 Jul 2011 23:45 #
  2. Aadmi
    Member

    Breivik opinions are unfortunately very true. We (Pakistanis and Muslims) expect westerners to accept our style of living (hijaabs, mosques) but we cannot tolerate westerners opening pubs in our country, or western women roaming around in skirts. The westerners are right in calling us myopic and intolerant. We have come to a level where we expect the whole world to change, so our faith is not challenged. And then we wonder why they don't let us into their countries.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 7:38 #
  3. What need of an enemy when we have such dear friends of our own? Now let us take a closer look at those arguments. "Westerners" by banning things such as the hijab or mosques - at some later date Islam itself perhaps, are violating their own much-vaunted human rights agenda and the basic tenets of what they so proudly call the open society. The Muslim countries apply their own laws against pubs and decent dressing, etc. The former are behaving like hypocrites, the latter stay true to their principles.

    As for letting Muslims into west countries, firstly, they are doing no one any favours. It's all a question of self-interest. On the one hand, with their flailing economies and self-entitlement madness, their economies wouldn't run if they did not have the manpower their immigrants provide. On the other, the whole business of letting in so-called asylum seekers has been done so as to be able to keep their hold on the politics of Third World countries. If people do not know all this, it is that they have been taken in by appearances of generosity and compassion. They rob us, they manipulate us, they make war upon us and still we don't get the message. Too bad for us, but a pity for the masses of our Muslim countries.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 10:30 #
  4. Aadmi
    Member

    Speaking of hypocrisy, how do we explain living off western economies while calling it tainted and satanic at the same time. If a society's unfit for Muslims, aren't they supposed to move out rather than staying around and complaining.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 10:39 #
  5. gv
    Member

    @MG

    wow mg - your anti-westernism is actually getting the better of your ability to reason and rationalise objectively.. and you are one of our more balanced posters... scary stuff...

    Every society has a fixed set of norms and traditions

    When a migrant community appears to be threatening those norms and traditions (for better or for worse) there is an inevitable backlash by the host community

    Why is it that chinese or far eastern migrant communities in the west do not face the same backlash that muslim migrants do?

    They are as alien to the host as the muslims are - in some cases even more alien in terms of culture and length of common history..

    As an economic migrant one will not be perceived as a threat to the host as long as one keeps oneself and ones own cultural norms within ones own community - the minute there is spillover there will be a backlash whether its by a maniacal homicidal psychopath like Breivik or by the neanderthals who make up the BNP and the National Front

    Finally i am firm believer of not doing unto others------

    ie. i do not like the current pervasive influence the west has over us and our youth and would definitely not like living with western economic migrants pushing their values/cultural norms down our throats while they simultaneously criticise our moral degradation as a society

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 10:47 #
  6. gv, hello. I shouldn't have replied, if it hadn't been for you. Look, I'm not talking anti-west sentiment here. Absolutely not. That is a wholly separate chapter.

    What I was trying to comment on were the events in Norway. And this business about "scary stuff", gv, it's the recent media term to describe the Oslo massacre. What's scary about it, I'd like to know? My point was and I maintain it: the west is being absolutely hypocritical and going against its own so-called democratic rights, its own norms and traditions, as you put it. They are not being true to these. To claim Muslims are taking over their countries is absolutely baseless. Muslims in west countries are in no power position. They are not pushing anything down anyone's throats. They dress differently, do they? So do the orthodox Jews. Any objections there? They want to pray in mosques and bury their dead according to their principles? So do the Jews. Any objections there? Those who are in a position to thrust things down other people's throats - and you, gv, know them as well as I do - are doing all the string pulling behind the scenes. And they also wield the power of wealth, fake or real, who knows?

    Why are we suddenly making such a big deal out of migration? It's as old as the hills. And this pseudo argument one loves to bring forward that migrants must show due "gratitude" to the countries which have allowed them to enter makes no sense to me whatsoever. How about the other way round: the host country shows some gratitude towards the people who have come from afar to run their economies for them at the lowest levels? Migrants have proved extremely law-abiding as a rule. And, in connection with Oslo again, do I need to point out that it has nothing to do with Muslims whatsoever? Except, perhaps (?) in the minds of the perpetrators?

    gv, your comparison with other ethnic groups such as the Chinese was not really worthy of you here, was it? They've had their turn already during the reign of the Buddhist Wars. Now everything is focused on the demonisation of the Muslims. Surely this comes as no surprise to you? "not doing unto others...", GV? We're back to the 9/11 paradigm which we've already discused at length in earlier days, deciding at long last that to each his own was the best policy. From my point of view, we've been the victims for the past ten years and ongoing.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 12:43 #
  7. gv
    Member

    Mg

    you're missing the point - fact of the matter is - no matter how small they may be - there are evangelical islamist groups scattered in tiny pockets around the west operating to 'topple' the 'debauched' west ( including our household favourites HT)

    Also every third or fourth khutba in small town uk/europe bemoans the moral degradation of the host (i.e. white christian) society. Our own right wing nut jobs are just at blame for the polarisation of views as are the western right wing nut jobs.. Oslo is an extreme extension of these views.

    The backlash in western society post 9-11 against the apparent symbols of islam i.e. burqas, hijab, beards etc have exploded exponentially from what existed pre 2001.

    Muslim communities have lived in europe and the US in sufficient size since the end of the second world war... Before these communities were denigrated by the indigenous far right as being Turks, or 'P-a-k-i-s' - i.e. ethnic slurs..

    Today this is all blurred into one great islamic 'threat'

    This is because of 9/11. 7/7, the madrid bombings, abu hamza, al qaeda, iraq, afghanistan etc etc etc etc.

    It doesnt matter that these migrant extremists are the minority their problem is they are way too vocal and are harming the peace loving migrants in their own communities more than anyone else..

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 16:24 #
  8. bsobaid
    Member

    His childhood and youth best friend was a Pakistani.

    His Pakistani friend might have done something really wrong with him...I wonder if he was a pathan...

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 16:44 #
  9. Could this be established that his friend a pathan did something wrong with him...

    His childhood and youth best friend waa a Pakitani!

    Strange, For a Pakistani living in Europe and having friendship (who knows in advance his friend is a psycho) with an undiagonised nut case means associates are more to blame than the criminal who did this henious act.
    And why pathan is being singled out by you bsobaid bhaiya?
    Are the media sure about friends of this nut behind his evil act? The loss this self centered brainwashed crusador inflicted on humanity cannot be dumped easily on Pakistan.

    Was his unknown Pakistani friend involved? If yes then who is his Pakistani friend and why he is not identified, published and held in custody?

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 16:51 #
  10. bsobaid
    Member

    His childhood friend was a Pakistani, I read in a news report and the rest I said was in a lighter mood and his pathan ethnicity I mentioned not in reference of terrorism but something else....

    I can remove it if anyone is offended.

    His Pakistani friend was not involved anywhere nor was his reference made in this manner. Actually, if I am not mistaken he mentioned that in his manifesto, or it probably was a news item, cant remember.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:01 #
  11. Bsobaid bhaiya, brother read my full post above. Kindly think what anti Muslim and anti Pakistani is converging on.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:03 #
  12. bsobaid
    Member

    Mirza, as I said I made that comment in a lighter mood. Dont take it seriously. The fact remains that he had a childhood Pakistani immigrant best friend BUT his friendship with that Pakistani boy has nothing to do with his act. No news report anywhere implied that.

    ab zara iss nafsiyaati kee baatein bhi sunn lein but it all sounded soo familiar...world is soooo predictable.

    http://video.foxnews.com/v/1078836718001/media-brand-norwegian-maniac-a-christian-extremist

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:09 #
  13. Bsobaid bhai, as a Pakistani, I am unable to gulp down media medicine that is nothing but about a Nordic thick head who committed a henious crime against humanity, a genocide in paractice (against his own kind in this case but then they are known to commit such acts and blame them on Muslim fundametalism). Linking his actions with Pakistan or Pakistanis are uncalledfor but we expected they would say so.

    Over time, and as usual they will build up stories, stories that we Patriotic Pakistanis should not fall prey to..

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:15 #
  14. bsobaid
    Member

    gv, I have noticed many of us are becoming extremely self-apologetic.

    Whenever I see any crime committed by a non-muslim or Indian or any other hostile nation there is a growing number of online posters who immediately draw attention towards Taliban, AQ and other so-called muslim terror group to somehow defend or explain or decrease the intensity of that crime.

    I do not understand this behavior.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:17 #
  15. bsobaid
    Member

    I agree S.E the act was solely (??) committed by this guy with or without assistant and had nothing to do with Pakistan. I should also say I have not seen any report or any news item linking it with pakistan.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:18 #
  16. gv
    Member

    @bsobaid

    im not being self apologetic nor am i trying to explain why oslo happened.

    im stating facts as per my point to MG extreme views result in extreme reactions. please follow the thread from my response to MG's post above

    http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/oslo-attacker-feared-%e2%80%98pakistanisation%e2%80%99-of-europe#post-254244

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:21 #
  17. Thanks bsobaid bhaiya or if you dont mind me saying bsobaid bhai sahab. You have said the ultimate. Nothing further possibly could be added to this thread. Culprit, criminal towards humanity, who culled innocents by anyone except a Christian crusader and not by a Muslim or a Pakistani.

    Thanks brother, I highly regard you and your say on matters laced with embedded truth you are gifted with in you person.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:24 #
  18. bsobaid
    Member

    gv, majority of what MG said is not wrong and I dont think either side deny that either.

    Anyways, in my opinion best solution is to only allow very highly trained and highly educated immigrants in Europe.

    The rising ultra nationalist wave in Europe has only started and I dont see it coming down anytime soon.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:27 #
  19. bsobaid
    Member

    Shuriya S.E sahab.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:28 #
  20. You are most welcome (as always) bsobaid bhai sahab. You are one of the most decent well respected, founding members of pkpdicuss.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:31 #
  21. gv
    Member

    Mg's point while admittedly mostly correct is a bit one sided and has a victim mentality about it--- one needs to take a more balanced view to identify the root causes of the problem

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:34 #
  22. bsobaid
    Member

    Look gv, you cant expect an altogether different culture to assimilate in a host culture in 1 or 2 generations.

    Those countries who opened up immigration also knew that or atleast should have known that. This is the price you pay for getting skilled labor and educated professional for a very low cost.

    Host communities should realize this and think of non-confrontational ways to handle it.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:42 #
  23. bsobaid, my first comment is for you. That reference to a Pakistani adolescent friend was reported on a RT video by a Swede, I think, who had known the Oslo perpetrator as a young man.

    gv, Ok, if you think I'm missing the point, I'll grant you that. I'm not denying there may be or there are small pockets of islamist groups in various European countries trying to proselytise. Judging from where I am located, it's usually other immigrants they attract, for instance Tamils. The Europeans often come over to Islam through marriages or childhood friendships. Moral laxity in the west is condemned by such religious groups, but on all sides of the spectrum.

    Right, now what was that about 9/11, the mother of all pretexts? Now come on, gv, I'm not going into that. As for harming the "peace-loving migrants", what about the dying Muslims on the other side of the world? Why shouldn't we be vocal in condemnation of the wars? Gv, look, you didn't really address any of the issues I tried to raise in earlier posts. You simply called my views "extreme". That is not quite fair and honest.

    Anyway, if you're all worrying about a stop to immigration, don't be. It's not the events of Oslo which will put an end to the doors of Europe opening. What might do it, though, is what one analyst calls "the economic enslavement of all the peoples of Europe" about which you might know something since it's field in which you more or less work.

    So, no, there will be no "Pakistanisation" of Europe anytime soon. What there has been is the "Americanisation" of Europe with all that that implies.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 17:54 #
  24. EU Exploits Norway Massacre to Stifle Dissent

    European Union to launch “extremist” early warning system, despite the fact that EU treats legitimate criticism of its own institution as “extremism”

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Infowars.com
    Tuesday, July 26, 2011

    Wasting little time in exploiting the freshly dead bodies of dozens of Norwegian teenagers to push its draconian agenda, the European Union has swiftly announced that it plans to set up an “early warning system” to combat “extremism,” the problem being that the EU treats legitimate criticism of its own corrupt institution as extremist.

    “The European Commission is building a security system to issue early warnings on threats of extremism, xenophobia and other forms of radicalism, EC spokesman Michele Cercone said on Tuesday,” reports RIA Novosti.

    EU officials also met on Monday in a bid to “curb sales of firearms” to law-abiding citizens, despite the fact that it was Norway’s policy on not allowing police instant access to firearms that contributed to the scale of last week’s attack.

    Eurosceptisim is on the rise across the contintent, which is why the neo-liberal elite are busy implying that people who oppose being ruled by an unelected, unaccountable, Soviet-style buearacratic tyranny are in league with Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

    (To bear out what I said: This is to copy Homeland Security methods in US).

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 18:09 #
  25. Agreed Mirza Sahib, couldnt be said better then you said so for our friends on pkpdiscuss.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 18:11 #
  26. Abdul Rahman
    Member

    Those who say that this guy was simply a homicidal maniac and we shouldn't make it or assume it to be political ignore a couple of things. 1. the man proclaims his own reasons as political AND 2. If he was a Muslim, they would certainly NOT call him simply a homicidal maniac. Rather they would call him a jihadist. They would further (yet again) tar and feather all Muslims, call their religion 'violent,' and chastise all Muslims for not containing the violent ones among them. They would say that "they all" hate us and want to destroy us and are ungodly and a range of other bigoted charges... but since it is a Christian, they will do all they can to say that he is just sick or insane. That is plain double standard.

    On the other hand they should give him a Nobel Peace Prize. Why not? He lives in Norway, a country that gave Nobel prize to mass murderers like Israeli PM Begin in 70's and Obama recently.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 18:49 #
  27. Thanks, Mirza Sahib. I'm glad you agreed.

    AR, absolutely. It is thoroughly political. And that's the reason it will be palmed off as simply psychotic. So that we do not need to go into what those politics actually are. Double standards? Did you expect anything different from the people who are making war on six different Muslim countries at least? I didn't. But I'll second you on your nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize 2011. He's just the sort of candidate Norwegian Parliament usually tends to seek.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 19:21 #
  28. oneUp
    Member

    Some of the write ups on Breivik's terrorism are so biased draggin in 'militant Islam' for no rhyme or reason and projecting Breivik as a loner: for instance

    Don't let Breivik poison our politics
    TwitterLinkedInEmail
    National Post · Jul. 26, 2011 | Last Updated: Jul. 26, 2011 3:07 AM ET

    In his dark, deluded imagination, Norwegian killer Anders Breivik believed that his hideous shooting rampage on Friday would set in motion a military struggle that would cleanse his continent of Muslims. He accomplished the opposite: From now on, every pundit or activist who delivers even the mildest and most well-informed critique of multiculturalism and militant Islam will be handicapped by the taint of Mr. Breivik's odious actions.

    The effect will be felt in the security apparatus of Western nations, as well: Islamist radicalism and murderous right-wing bigotry are both life-threatening challenges to open societies such as Norway. Mr. Breivik has guaranteed that resources once available to fight the former now will be diverted to the latter.

    http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/Breivik+poison+politics/5157847/story.html

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 19:47 #
  29. oneUp
    Member

    Anders Behring Breivik’s wake-up call for Europe

    Let me start my column with a strong condemnation of terrorism, violence, discrimination and hatred, regardless of the perpetrator, motives and origins. This is a pronouncement that anyone who speaks about these matters should make.

    More important than this condemnation we must make a ritual in the face of the bone-chilling terrorist attacks that claimed the lives of 76 innocent people in Norway on Friday is to be sincere and frank in taking a position on such incidents. Of course, we have to reach an agreement to not condemn, judge or discriminate against anyone because of their religion, race, language or lifestyle. However, I have doubts as to whether even the most civilized, democratic, liberal and pro-freedom circles are successful in this matter. These doubts become even more visible and prominent when it comes to Europe, which suffers from the illness of seeing itself as superior to other civilizations and has had double standards for a long time.

    Discrimination, racism and xenophobia are actual and serious problems that can be encountered in more or less all societies. However, turning a blind eye to the problem as if such a deadly issue does not even exist is even more dangerous than the presence of this problem. Europe makes this mistake. Failing to coexist with migrants of different cultures from Africa and Asia, Europe is unable to accept the fact that its discriminatory and exclusionary attitude toward the newcomers could lead to such a pathological situation. This failure manifests itself in the forms of xenophobia, Islamophobia and discrimination and this grave problem is now changing from a problem of marginal groups to a problem of large masses, while this virus is also penetrating strong institutions, including the police. Interestingly, Europeans cannot admit to having this illness and the problems it causes, and even if they do admit it, they cannot confront it.

    However, racism, discrimination, xenophobia and bigotry are not something that Europe is unfamiliar with. A quick look at its past would suffice to make one realize the freshness of the wounds caused by racism and enmity towards different cultures. I will not talk about the barbarity committed by the Europeans during the Medieval Period, the darkest period of the continent. But if you let me, I would say nothing except that Europe is a land that has hosted two destructive ideologies, fascism and Nazism, which aimed to build a new civilization upon the thesis that the Arian race is superior, ignoring the lives of millions of people to attain this goal, as recent as the mid-20th century -- in other words, 50-60 years ago. If it is necessary to act delicately and take measures against all sorts of racism and discrimination in all nations, it is far more essential for European countries.

    When I say this, I am not ignoring the advancements and progress that Europe has made. Of course, it is true that Europe is still enjoying an advanced position that we can admire in terms of democratization and recognition of rights and freedoms. Most countries in the world admire the continent as far as rights, social development and freedoms are concerned. For instance, Turkey has been considering the standards of the European Union -- as it has been seeking to become a full EU member -- as a benchmark for developing its political and social standards to improve individual rights and freedoms and consolidate the rule of law and democracy. It takes Europe as a model for its course. Besides, who could argue that the popular uprisings in the Middle East and North Africa, popularly called the Arab Spring, are not based on a desire to attain the level of democracy and freedom in European countries? Europe holds great responsibility; its test is tough, even if it is limited to being a role model.

    It is essential to keep Europe as a role model because it serves as living proof that multiculturalism is a sustainable formula for the improvement of civil and political rights and freedoms throughout the world, the consolidation of democracy, the establishment of the rule of law, the creation of pluralist administrations that focus on participation, the implementation of criteria on transparency and accountability and, most importantly, peaceful coexistence. The survival of this model is imperative to make sure that the horrible European soul that massacred millions of Jews, gypsies, gays and others in gas chambers 70 years ago, does not come back, and also to keep the desires for democracy and freedom of hundreds of millions being repressed by despotic regimes in different parts of the world alive.

    Nevertheless, I am not sure whether it is proper to put on this cold-blooded murderer all the blame and responsibility for Islamophobic acts, the illness of not tolerating other lifestyles, terrorism's penetration into Christianity by xenophobic racists acting as if they were men of a holy cause and relying on hatred and enmity as Knights of the Temple. Do Nicolas Sarkozy, competing with Marine Le Pen, who assumed xenophobia and racism as his ideology in France, Angela Merkel, competing with the neo-Nazis in destroying multiculturalism, the Dutch courts, exonerating an anti-Islam racist like Geert Wilders and all Europeans who avoid confrontation with the growing danger and do not accept that racism is their problem not have any responsibility?

    Would the socio-psycho-political environment that created Anders Behring Breivik, the cold-blooded murderer of 76 innocent people, not be the same as the environment of the suspicious death of Serkan Budakçı, who died under police custody in Sweden, and İhsan Gürz, who died under police custody in the Netherlands? Would excessive European self-confidence, which has reached the point of arrogance, not make Europeans indifferent and insensitive to all racist and discriminatory acts, arguing that their police are civilized and do not do such things, ignoring the possibility that Dutch and Swedish police are infected with racism and xenophobia and seeing the immigrants' suspicious deaths as something they actually deserved, not have a role in this?

    I hope that the tragic destruction of the 68 innocent young people who were killed in a lovely town in Norway and the other eight in Oslo by a cold-blooded murderer fostered by growing Christian fundamentalism and xenophobia will serve as a wake-up call for all of Europe, which has been losing its ability to be a role model for the entire world, before it is too late.
    http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-251742-anders-behring-breiviks-wake-up-call-for-europe.html

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 19:55 #
  30. Thank you for the two articles,oneUp. I may not see eye to eye with them on this or that point, but nonetheless they were most informative. Though I wish someone would also point out, along with everything else, that Europe is as much a part of a ten-year long war effort now which has brought death to something like two million Muslims the world over. Why do we all so conveniently forget the ongoing wars?

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 20:44 #
  31. oneUp
    Member

    @MG no problem brother.

    Europe has been part of the invader army that is responsible for the deaths of millions of Muslims. Very hypocritical when people justify Christian extremism by pinning the entire blame on 'militant Islam' instead of cleaning their own backyard. While there are some lunatics who misuse religion but the root cause of militancy and extremism are injustice and double standards as seen in case of Palestinian conflict , the illegal occupation of Afghanistan , Iraq to name a few. Unless the fraudulent WOT is terminated , extremism would be hard to curb.

    Posted 10 months ago on 26 Jul 2011 21:16 #
  32. khanseena1
    Member

  33. gv
    Member

    @MG

    Here you go again - where exactly did I call your views extreme? At best I implied that you are being one-sided and not showing both sides of the coin and given your typical balanced writing it does not behoove you.

    Forget 9/11 what about the 2007 London bombings and the Madrid bombings or that nutcase in Finsbury park etc. The fact is there is a violent sub-element within the muslim migrant communities in the west. Lets accept that first as fact.

    As far as the dying muslims on the other side of the world is concerned it is common knowledge that the European public marched in massive numbers to protest against their governments taking them to war.

    I am not at all concerned about the doors of Europe or anywhere else closing. Yes you are correct that it will be the economic decline of the west that will close them in the future. I am highlighting the reason for the increasingly vocal backlash against the existing muslim communities in europe which a decade ago was nowhere as pronounced or promoted as it is now

    Posted 10 months ago on 27 Jul 2011 10:06 #
  34. OK, gv, granted this time that I may have misunderstood your intention and that you did not call my views extreme. That was me simply, extrapolating.

    I'll meet you on the statement about the "violent sub-element" within the Muslim migrant communities in the west. And, certainly, there were huge demos against the Iraq war in various west capitals. That was in early 2003. Since then, practically nothing anywhere. As though we'd all settled down to war as a way of life. It was extremely foolish on the part of each one of us. But probably foreordained. For now the balance of power will shift from one side to the other. Had they not created enemies out of thin air, the west might well have managed to carry on in the old way for another half a century or so.

    OK, agreed, too, although with due reservations, that the reasons you give for the increasingly vocal backlash against the existing muslim communities in europe" are correct. But, again, gv, don't you think we might also point to other instances which have made it their life's work to bring all of this to a boiling point? I mean by this the MSM and certain heads of State, Sarkozy being a case in point.

    Which all brings us back to the thread topic. There is no justification, in my eyes, for the grand title of this thread, except in the service of cheap propaganda. As for the Oslo killer(s?), he'll get away with it all. Just wait and see.

    Thanks for patience, gv.

    Posted 10 months ago on 27 Jul 2011 10:45 #
  35. gv
    Member

    Thanks MG

    Its good to know we still see eye to eye on most things despite our very orwellian dichotomies. :p

    And to end yes I indeed concur with you that the MSM and the likes of Sarkozy serve to exacerbate the issue as opposed to reducing it.

    Posted 10 months ago on 27 Jul 2011 11:03 #
  36. shafiq12
    member

    The attitude adopted by westren world towards muslims/islam is prime example of racist bigotry..... They treat every non white as muslims..... It means if you are Asian you are muslim it doesn't matter whether you are hindu/sikh/japani/chiness

    Posted 10 months ago on 27 Jul 2011 11:16 #
  37. bsobaid
    Member

    yehaa pay aisay logoo ko hero bana kay baar baar media pay laaya jaata hai, aur wahan.....

    " A member of France’s far-right National Front was suspended for praising the attacker."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/world/europe/28europe.html?ref=world

    However, interesting to see some people are trying to make a Mumtaz Qadri out of Norway killer.

    Posted 10 months ago on 28 Jul 2011 21:41 #
  38. spruce
    Member

    The Oslo massacre and Viking justice
    On Friday, July 22, 2011, there were two massacres in two different places but in the same country. One was an explosion in a government building and the other an attack on an island.

    The news would have been a normal-day event on the face of our planet, but the attacks were not in Baghdad, Kabul or Mogadishu. The attacks were not carried out by Al-Qaeda outfits. The attacks were not in a poor country. And they didn't take place in a country where there is no form of government in control. The ugly massacres didn't happen where freedom is curtailed. The attacks didn't take place where the head of the government is a dictator. The attacker didn't come from a refugee camp or poverty-stricken country. So, why did they happen?

    The attacks took place in the richest, most homogenized, most stable, most tolerant country on earth. It happened in a country that has the best education, highest standard of living and the most respected people. It happened in Norway, a country with 5 million people and considered one of the most influential in the world. Norway is so transparent to the point where the king announced that he bought a Lexus for official use, so the people of Norway wouldn't ask why he had a Lexus. The Norwegian prime minister and foreign minister are seen in the news more than any European politicians. Norway is the most unlikely place where a bomb blast and a massacre would take place? So, who did it?

    The attacker. Yes, the Western media called him an attacker, not a terrorist. And one hour after the attack, the Norwegian got a top-gun lawyer. He was not transferred to a secret prison in a dictatorship, so they can use any form of torture to get even a false lead. Norway will not simply allow it. It is a country that has a very excellent human rights record.

    Norway has the best form of foreign aid approach. They help the poor and sick no matter what religion or color of skin they have. Norway doesn't deserve to be a place where a terrorist attack would take place.

    Now, is the Norwegian citizen Anders Behring Breivik a terrorist? If he is not a terrorist, then who is? And what would Norway do to implement justice? We all know that Norway has no capital punishment. The old days of Viking justice are gone forever, or are they?

    Now that Breivik is caught, what is the next step to douse the anger and grief of the families of the victims and their friends? Even though I am a Saudi and not a Norwegian, I already know what would happen to him. I have two scenarios.

    First scenario: He will be put on trial for months and the Norwegian tax payers will spend tens of millions of dollars for this trial. They will hire the most expensive lawyers, the most experienced mental analysts and the top police investigators. And, no matter what the verdict is, he will not be put to death. The Norwegian government will provide Breivik with around-the-clock protection and he will be under suicide watch. In addition, he will get the best medical treatment and will be in the news every day of the year.

    But there is another scenario for any country that has no capital punishment.

    Second scenario: The death penalty will be implemented in an Oslo prison using the Viking justice. On a cold Norwegian night, the top police official will be on a two-day vacation, the prison warden will have a family gathering and the prison guard who is responsible to look after the VIP prisoners will be having his midnight snack. All of a sudden a couple of Norwegian hard-core criminals happen to be in the bathroom area where Breivik is taking a late-night shower.

    And in less than two seconds, the most famous Norwegian prisoner is dead due to an injury to the head caused by a sharp object, which only the Vikings know how to use swiftly. And the Norwegian couple will go back to their cells the same way the Vikings used to disappear in the woods after a quick battle.

    Now, the readers of the article who happened to be from the state of Wisconsin, US, would remember what happened to the inmate Jeffery Lionel Dahmer on the cold night of Nov. 28, 1984, when another inmate had beaten him to death. Just like Norway, Wisconsin had no death penalty, so it was the law of the Old West that implemented justice.

    Now, is the Viking justice gone forever? I don't think so. Don't get a Norwegian Viking angry. Who is going to cry if Anders Breivik is accidentally killed.
    http://arabnews.com/opinion/columns/article480831.ece

    Posted 9 months ago on 01 Aug 2011 0:39 #
  39. A must watch video about how the Western media spins hate against Muslims.

    I have been comparative watching news since the Irish Republic Army's terrorist acts in England verses the troubles in the Middle East in the 80's. Never I heard the IRA comminted a terrorist act. Same is still true.

    Posted 9 months ago on 01 Aug 2011 0:57 #

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