PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

Pakistan and Democracy – Time to be realistic?

(88 posts)
  1. shahzad1924
    member

    Pakistan and Democracy – Time to be realistic?

    Its that time in Pakistani politics again, where after roughly two years of coming to power the ‘elected’ and ‘democratic’ regime is once again under threat of being thrown out on one charge of misdemeanour or another. It would really be a lot simpler in one sense if we all just accepted that Pakistan is going to have elections after two years rather than four; it would make the pretence of transparent and accountable rule a bit easier to swallow. At least the people would feel they have some power whilst the new overlords are installed after receiving their political baptism in Washington. The only drawback with this sort of plan is that the ‘disgraced’ politicians who are regularly recycled in Pakistan would not have had enough time out in the ‘sin-bin’ for their transgressions to make them palatable enough for the people to accept them as rulers again.

    The National Reconciliation Ordinance (NRO) set up by the currently disgraced Pervez Musharraf as part of his plan to leave power whilst preserving Western interests is now seemingly doomed to failure. With the end of November deadline of ratification set by the Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry fast approaching, Parliament has not ratified the bill and it would seem several individuals currently occupying high office could soon be thrown back in to the lowly shadows from where they crawled out from almost 3 years ago. Chief amongst those threatened are the Sarah Palin admiring, land grabbing President Asif Ali Zardari, the Interior Minister Rehman “All roads lead to Waziristan” Malik, the man in America Hussain Haqqani (the one who no one is ever sure if he is Pakistan’s ambassador in Washington or Washington’s Pakistan representative) and of course the Pakistani student courting party lover in London, Wajid Shamsul Hasan.

    The fact that the people of this ilk have made it this far in to power is testament to the total and utter failure of the political set up. Surely it is an insult to every person’s intelligence, bribed and un-bribed, that the whole NRO is a farce regardless of what Iftikhar Chaudhry says. In origin it was designed to cobble together an administration by the flagging Musharraf at the behest of his Western masters so America’s War on all things worth conquering and Islamic in nature can continue in South Asia. At the time of Musharraf’s declaration of the state of emergency, many a pseudo ideologue across the globe came out in protest that this situation was intolerable, and that Musharraf must surely now go. The solution, it was parroted, was that democracy must be restored with immediate effect. A debate quickly ensued as to who should be empowered in the soon to be re-democratised Pakistan, and to the dismay of many answers were few. When questioned that surely the only people who will win from democracy returning to Pakistan are the corrupt politicians whom Musharraf came to power to throw out in the first place, a rather academic and utopian response was issued that “For the principle of the matter we need democracy”.

    Translation – we want to be able to pick the people who let the Americans bomb us, and we don’t mind if they help themselves to the nation’s wealth while they are at it. We just want to feel good about putting a cross on a bit of paper in a box that ultimately is probably going to get ‘lost’ or ‘misplaced’ somewhere anyway.

    And surely this is the trouble in Pakistan. That some blindly speak of implementing democracy with a religious zeal that would give any extremist a run for their money without considering its practical consequences is a problem for the country. Encouraged by Western sponsors, be they governments or Western think tanks, Pakistan and indeed the rest of the Muslim world is being constantly cajoled or harried towards adopting democracy. Yet democracy has a consistent track record of utter failure in Pakistan. Whilst many are forever complaining that democracy has never established itself in Pakistan or given the chance to flourish, they fail to appreciate both the finer philosophical/ideological underpinnings of democracy and the practical societal and political set up of Pakistan that would reveal why democracy is doomed to fail. Democracy is held up as the way to progress (whilst the issue of Western nations supporting and doing business with dictators, tyrants and despots like Colonel Gaddafi of Libya, Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, Abdullah of Jordon, Pervez Musharraf, Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan and others is brushed under the carpet). Pakistani political elites, being somewhat victims of an inferiority complex at Western technological advances, economical supremacy and cultural depth rush to add their voices in agreement.

    Pakistan is a country dominated by the super rich industrialists, the feudal land owners and the army. These three interest groups have a strangle hold on the levers of power in Pakistan and often work together and against each other as pragmatism would dictate in order to maintain the status quo. Any idea that the common man can actually have a say through the ballot box in such conditions is naïve at best. With many feudalists bringing with them a ‘chor bank’ instead of a vote bank, the industrialists being able to buy their way in to power and the army just able to take power at the barrel of a gun, utilising the ballot box is an exercise in sheer futility.

    Coupled with the fact that the country finds itself in an economically stagnant condition, this leaves it reliant upon external sources of finance which in turn turns it in to a political dependent on foreign powers. This further entrenches the power of these three interest groups as foreign powers, such as America, simply turn to the group that would best serve its agenda at any given time. Carrots are offered in terms of international recognition, being feted on the global scene, turning a blind eye to domestic corruption and offering financial ‘bailouts’ (read bribes) in exchange for implementing their agenda and strengthening their grip on the country. The Kerry-Lugar bill is an example of this money for control neo-colonisation.

    Philosophically, democracy is promoted as a natural progression for mankind, including Muslims, as it is simply said to be a system of where the people can have their say on who rules them and how. Democracy is said to be compatible with Islam, with even some Muslims citing the traditions of Shura in Islam as being democratic traditions, going so far as even saying that the Western world took democracy from Islam. Yet the essence of democracy is fundamentally opposed to Islam philosophically. At its core lies the concept that man shall rule over man by popular consent. Issues of how this is administratively carried out are secondary and do not change this core aspect of the system. Whether this is the result of a parliamentary system or a presidential system does not alter the fact that the collective or aggregate wisdom of the population is deemed appropriate to establish laws to regulate and govern society.

    Laws are established to enforce the values of a society, and in a democracy all laws are subject to change pending the will of the people. What is legal in one time may be illegal in another, and what is illegal in one time may be legal in another. For example, in many countries in the Western world homosexuality just a few decades ago was considered illegal, yet now not only is it legal but a form of ‘marriage’ recognising gay couples exists.

    Islam is philosophically at loggerheads with such an approach to governing. At the core of Islam lies the concept of Tauheed, which establishes the worship of Allah alone, having no other partners. The concept of worship includes not simply engaging in acts of ritual spirituality, such as the five daily prayers or fasting during the month of Ramadhan, but to fundamentally hear and obey all commands of Allah. In the Quran, it is stated that

    “…Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the reward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.” [Surah Al-Baqarah (2), Verse 85]

    “It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.” [Surah Al-Ahzab (33), Verse 36]

    “They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!” [Surah At-Taubah (9), Verse 31]

    “Once while Allah’s Messenger (saw) was reciting this Verse (9:31), ‘Adi bin Hatim said, “O Allah’s Messenger! They do not worship them (i.e. the rabbis and monks).” Allah’s Messenger (saw) said: “They certainly do. They (i.e. the rabbis and monks) made lawful (Halal) things as unlawful (Haraam) and unlawful things as lawful, and they (i.e. Jews and Christians) followed them; and by doing so, really worshipped them.” [Narrated in the books of Hadith by Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir]

    These citations from sources of Islamic law clearly state that the idea of following Islamic law in all spheres of life is inextricably linked to the concept of worship. To attempt to alter, dispute or reject any law set by Islam is tantamount to disbelief. Yet in a democracy the representative(s) of the people are empowered, on behalf of the people, to establish a set of laws of which none are sacrosanct, being subject forever to the ever changing will of the people. The rabbis and monks in a modern context, it would appear, would be the MNAs, MPAs and Senators.

    It is clear that it is not just the superficial act of bowing one’s head towards a physical idol that is considered as having made partners with Allah, but also obeying anyone or group of people over and above the commands of Allah is considered as having made association with Him in worship. This, coming back to the core tenet of Islam, violates the concept of Tauheed and is therefore shirk, the most severe sin in Islam.

    This is in contradiction to democracy which being built upon the ideals of secularism, which removes the commands of Allah from the State, promotes the idea of freedom. This value of freedom promotes the role of man to establish whatever laws he may wish and in Islamic terms elevates man to the level of Allah.

    After understanding this simple concept, it becomes clearer to see why democracy on a philosophical basis is having a hard time taking root in Pakistan and indeed the wider Muslim world. At a creedal level, democracy is an anathema to the Muslim mind. The very basis for the establishment of democracy in a modern European context was to provide the population with a mechanism to implement secularism and attempt to establish representative rule in place of monarchies who may have ruled in the name of Christianity.

    In Islam, the tradition of consultation (Shura) is well established, as it is mentioned in the Quran

    “…So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. Then, when you have taken a decision put your trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).” [Surah Al-Imran (3), Verse 159)

    Due to this Quranic injunction recommending the ruler to consult the ruled when making a decision about matters, when looking at the administrative side of democracy where Parliament or a Congress or a Senate debate matters some mistakenly believe that democracy is compatible with Islam and an ‘Islamic Democracy’ can exist. This is why many a poll can seemingly give confusing results about many in the Muslim world wanting democracy yet at the same time a similar percentage, if not greater, wanting Sharia law and a Caliphate. It is only when both democracy and Islam are understood from a creedal level that it becomes clear that the term ‘Islamic Democracy’ is a misnomer, as you cannot have two contradicting philosophical values such as Tauheed and Secularism coexisting within one system.

    Pakistan’s salvation lies in moving past this schism in the State – Pakistan needs to decide whether it wishes to live and abide by Islam and in doing so adopt all of it, or whether it wishes to move on and attempt to become a fully fledged secular liberal democracy and abandon Islam completely. It cannot continue to sit on the fence, for this dithering between wanting to remain a spiritual Muslim in the personal sphere yet be secular in the public one is a malaise that is pulling the country apart. And for those who cannot decide, perhaps they should turn to the Quran for some political advice,

    “And verily, if you ask them: “Who created the heavens and the earth?” Surely, they will say: “Allâh (has created them).” Say: “Tell me then, the things that you invoke besides Allâh, if Allâh intended some harm for me, could they remove His harm, or if He (Allâh) intended some mercy for me, could they withhold His Mercy?” Say : “Sufficient for me is Allâh; in Him those who trust (i.e. believers) must put their trust”.” [Surah Az-Zumar (39), Verse 38)

    What would happen if the decision was made in favour of democracy? To make such a decision would be near impossible, as you have a country of about 170 million strong that would need to be convinced to abandon Islam from a creedal perspective. And this has always been the problem for the Western backed secular elite in Pakistan – the people have been viewed as being backward and the problem for not embracing Western values of secularism and freedom en mass. And conversely, the people view the antics of these corrupt elite with equal disdain, as they implement societal, economic, and political decisions that contradict Islam such as importing Western or Indian culture, implementing an interest based economic system and pursuing a foreign political agenda, such as fighting America’s latest colonial war in the Muslim world.

    It would seem that the population would find it easier to accept an Islamically legitimate system, such as an enlightened Caliphate. Such a system would provide the optimum mix of accountability via systems like Shura and at the same time implement time-independent laws and formulate policies which are in line with the Islamic sentiments of the people.

    Ironically it would seem that to a Muslim a democratic system is a backward form of ruling, as Islam views the rule of man over man as tyranny and placing him under the rule of Allah is justice.

    The question is – can foreign powers like America and the corrupt domestic stakeholders in the current rotten structure allow such a system to emerge?

    Asim Salahuddin

    The writer is a Pakistani analyst and freelance columnist

    http://pakistanintellectuals.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=391:pakistan-and-democracy-time-to-be-realistic&catid=13:featured-news&Itemid=8

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 3:16 #
  2. sasherwani
    Members

    Democracy is failing not because its 'democracy' but because we have been unfortunate enough to receive the most corrupt people (NS, Zardari, Bibi) as our leaders.

    Democracy fails only if the leadership fails.

    The same shall happen if your khilafat is imposed. If a corrupt khalifa takes over (the chances of which are highly likely considering Khilafat-lovers actually consider Mulla Omar as an ideal Khalifa-candidate), Pakistan will go another 1000 yrs behind.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 4:06 #
  3. zia m
    Member

    We do have a double standard if Muslims behave badly it is not the fault of Islam but if people elect corrupt leaders it must be the fault of democratic system.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 4:20 #
  4. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    I as a Muslim know from ALLAH ALMIGHTY that Islam is a complete system of life. Since its comming from ALLAH ALMIGHTY and we know ALLAH ALMIGHTY NEVER makes mistakes, we already know the reputation of Islam.

    Having said that, I don't call failure of people, failure of democratic system.

    @zia m: Perhaps you'd want me to open the book on successful democratic systems / countries and show you HOW successful they have been ?

    Perhaps you'd want me to show you the COST at which these democratic systems / countries have been successful ?

    Why do you want me to waste EVERYONE's time by going in that discussion again ?

    Haven't I posted enough facts yet ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 10:25 #
  5. shahzad1924
    member

    @sasherwani - "Democracy is failing not because its 'democracy' but because we have been unfortunate enough to receive the most corrupt people (NS, Zardari, Bibi) as our leaders."

    oh come on! wasn't this the most transparent elections of all time?

    what else would it take? everytime you are "unfortunate". stop whining and accept the facts.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 14:34 #
  6. shahzad1924
    member

    @zia m - "....but if people elect corrupt leaders it must be the fault of democratic system."

    what other choices did you have?

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 14:35 #
  7. Anonymous

    Lets be realistic. Democracy cant work so do a dardmandana appeal from Kiyani to come and save Pakistan and after some time start start a democracy campaign.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 16:13 #
  8. shahzad1924
    member

    thats the problem with us. we only see two options; democracy and dictatorship.

    please find some time to read through this article that proposes khilafah as an alternative to both democracy and dictatorship.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 16:32 #
  9. Anonymous

    No need to look for the alternatives. Democracy is the way to go.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 16:34 #
  10. Pakistanis should be patient to tolerate Democracy even at its worst form, for 10-15 years and they will feel the change.

    The elections in 2012 would bring out good stuff, in 2017 Pakistan will get better and much better at 2022.

    Electronic Technology, the Bombardment from Media, flow of Information Technology and a number of Opinion forums like Pkpolitics, are creating awareness to the general masses about Rights and Duties.
    Sacrifice of one generation could bring prosperity for the next generation.

    Our neighbor Indians were wise enough to keep Pundit Jawahar Lal Nehru for 15 years at the position of Prime Minister to achieve a stable kick start.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 16:46 #
  11. Anonymous

    This is exactly what I Also say. Laikin establishment kay bandarrs mislead awam on the orders of establishment.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 16:51 #
  12. shahzad1924
    member

    "The elections in 2012 would bring out good stuff, in 2017 Pakistan will get better and much better at 2022."

    give me one good example of that happening somewhere on earth.

    and how do you propose such a thing? the last couple of elections have only brought out the worst "stuff". and at this rate, by 2022 we will be ruled by a charsi that smokes pot beneath a nallah bridge.

    "Our neighbor Indians were wise enough to keep Pundit Jawahar Lal Nehru for 15 years at the position of Prime Minister to achieve a stable kick start."

    our neighbors dont believe in an ideology that contradicts with the values of democracy and secularism. that's why they got a good start and why they are going good.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 17:25 #
  13. Anonymous

    "our neighbors dont believe in an ideology that contradicts with the values of democracy and secularism. that's why they got a good start and why they are going good"

    That means the problem lies with the ideology not the democracy?

    So why not to keep aside the ideology as far as politics is concerned !

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 17:35 #
  14. My dear Shahzad 1924,
    * "our neighbors don't believe in an ideology that contradicts with the values of democracy and secularism. that's why they got a good start and why they are going good."

    * Should I believe that you are accepting that our Ideology is the real problem and hurdle?

    * There is a long list of countries, where Democracy produced fruit of technology, wisdom, progress and prosperity.
    * we cannot put Pakistan on sale just due to a few malfunctioning components which could be repaired and replaced.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 17:41 #
  15. Anonymous

    Democracy is in no conflict with ideology. Democracy is the way to go and there are numerous reasons for that which have been explained numerous times.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:00 #
  16. shahzad1924
    member

    @adnak - "That means the problem lies with the ideology not the democracy?

    So why not to keep aside the ideology as far as politics is concerned !"

    first of all, the ideology is inherently political! the west has tried its best but they have failed to separate this ideology from politics.

    secondly, nevertheless i totally agree that this is a possibility. so i invite you to start a campaign and go to every home in Pakistan and tell them to desert their ideology. and please do update us on the feedback.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:03 #
  17. shahzad1924
    member

    @JS

    "Should I believe that you are accepting that our Ideology is the real problem and hurdle?"

    yes, Islam is the biggest problem and hurdle for kufr. our Islamic ideology will never let us accept democracy as a ruling system. the only solution to our problems lie in Islam.

    "There is a long list of countries, where Democracy produced fruit of technology, wisdom, progress and prosperity."

    don't twist my question. answer what i asked. if you don't have an answer don't bother saying anything.

    "we cannot put Pakistan on sale just due to a few malfunctioning components which could be repaired and replaced"

    exactly, we need to replace these puppet rulers and the kufr system of democracy and replace it with the system of khilafah.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:07 #
  18. shahzad1924
    member

    "Democracy is the way to go..."

    yay!!!!

    wake up, its 11PM in Pakistan!

    "Democracy is in no conflict with ideology"

    and when exactly do you plan to switch from your rhetoric mode to saying-something-that-makes-sense mode?

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:09 #
  19. zia m
    Member

    We need to introduce civic responsibility and introduction to democracy very early in our schools.Even our educated class does not participate in elections.The right and responsibility to vote is not taken very seriously in our society.

    @hariskhan
    .....Haven't I posted enough facts yet ? ...

    Yes.You have posted enough.
    Facts...NO not at all.
    Most of your posts are based on circular argument.There are close to 5 billion people in the world who don't believe in the Book you believe in.
    It is like a communist would try to base his arguments on a little red book by Mao.I'm sure you will laugh at him.
    Please try to use reason and logic to further your cause.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:14 #
  20. Anonymous

    Shahzad1924

    “so i invite you to start a campaign and go to every home in Pakistan and tell them to desert their ideology. and please do update us on the feedback”

    Sorry friend, I don’t believe in forcing the people what to do and what not to do. General public is quite intelligent to decide for themselves. Perhaps, it is Beasts’ (taliban’s) way of approach to use force and guns to manipulate with peoples’ free will. But it never works in the long run.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:25 #
  21. Anonymous

    @shahzad, we have had this discussion numerous times on pkpolitics and I have explained in length. I dont know why this topic keep coming up and the worse part, islam and ideology is dragged into this debate.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:25 #
  22. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    People will take part in elections, in democratic processes, when they will;

    - be able to trust their leaders

    - have the confidence to get justice against their disputes from court of law

    - know that govt. will ensure safety of their life, money, property, etc etc

    - see that their tax money, Zakaat money is not illegally going to pockets of their leaders, ministers, etc etc but EVERY DIME of that money is being spent on the people

    - see output match that which their leaders tell them of

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:26 #
  23. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @zia m: I am a Muslim. I think most Pakistanis' are also. THIS is why, I quote facts or ways of doing things from Quran-o-Hadees or from the 4 eras' that Muhammad (SAW) told us to use as 'standard'.

    Muslims LIVE their lives according to Islam. They see EVERYTHING through the lens of;

    - Quran
    - Hadees
    - 4 eras' that Muhammad (SAW) told us to use as 'standard'

    By this I mean 99+ % of the Muslims of Pakistan. Not those who want to just call themselves Muslims, but want to live their lives according to non-Muslim standards.

    If you want me to compare things with western standards, you should have openly told me before.

    I would have understood YOUR basic requirement to shove ALL of Islam's ways over the cliff unless they conformed to western standards.

    If I knew that, I would have shown you how or why Islam's standards are BETTER than western standards.

    DISCLAIMER: I'm NOT! an 'AAlim'.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:33 #
  24. If Democracy is not the carrier, then what these over 100 political and religious parties are doing in Pakistan?

    http://www.ecp.gov.pk/List%20of%20Political%20Parties%20with%20Leaders%20Name%20and%20Addresses.htm

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:38 #
  25. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @javedsheikh: I'm not the all knowing. However, I can find many rational reasons for this.

    From the elections I have seen, I don't think this many parties exist now in the first place.

    Add to that the fact that I see only 10-15 political parties obtaining ALL votes. No one casts votes to the majority of parties in that list. So, what makes them significant enough for you to make them an issue ?

    Secondly, if they exist, I would expect very specific circumstances to have prevailed for this to have happened. You remove those circumstances and these parties will cease to exist. I can list these circumstances if you want me to.

    Answer this for me;

    - How does one replace an already implemented system that is dying with something that is worthwhile such that it will be acceptable to ALL ?

    - Do you believe peaceful transition from one system to another is possible ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:43 #
  26. shahzad1924
    member

    @adnak - "Sorry friend, I don’t believe in forcing the people what to do and what not to do. General public is quite intelligent to decide for themselves. Perhaps, it is Beasts’ (taliban’s) way of approach to use force and guns to manipulate with peoples’ free will. But it never works in the long run."

    i understand that english is not the first language of most of the members here, but its really disappointing to see people taking out their guns (and i dont mean literally) on something they didn't understand.

    its either this, or you are just twisting what i said because either you ran out of arguments, or you have a bigger agenda behind joining pkpolitics in the first place.

    either way, please do tell me where i used the word "force" in my post.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:43 #
  27. shahzad1924
    member

    @bsobaid - "we have had this discussion numerous times on pkpolitics and I have explained in length. I dont know why this topic keep coming up and the worse part, islam and ideology is dragged into this debate."

    so, you expect me to discuss the recipe of "aloo cholay" with you on this topic?

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:45 #
  28. zia m
    Member

    Western society does not have a monopoly on reason and logic.Quran tells us to think.
    Islamic civilization was at its apex during Abbasid period who practiced reason and logic.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:46 #
  29. shahzad1924
    member

    @JS - "If Democracy is not the carrier, then what these over 100 political and religious parties are doing in Pakistan?"

    is that even a question? should i start with the history of how these political parties started. and then go on explaining how they have plundered the resources of the ummah?

    you must be blind and deaf not to know what they are doing in Pakistan.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:47 #
  30. shahzad1924
    member

    @zia m - "Islamic civilization was at its apex during Abbasid period who practiced reason and logic."

    so, you are happy with the Abbasid period? im fine with that, even though it was a weak form of khilafah, at least the systems were Islamic.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:50 #
  31. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @zia m: Reason and logic which OBEYS Islam. They accepted ALL that Islam accepted. They rejected ALL that Islam rejected.

    Why do you omit this very! important! fact ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:50 #
  32. zia m
    Member

    Would have been great if Abbasid had followed democratic way to elect the rulers.The system may have even survived.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 18:59 #
  33. Anonymous

    Shazad1924

    Your advice to me

    "tell them to desert their ideology"

    Can only be done forecefully, as beasts (taliban) used to do. If you don't want to do it with force then you need not to go to their private homes as per your advice. Satisfied?

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:12 #
  34. zia m
    Member

    Tariq Ali has done an excellent job in exposing the mullas.

    http://pkpolitics.com/discuss/topic/mullahs-and-heretics-tariq-ali

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:19 #
  35. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @zia m: The fundamental question I want to post is;

    - How come democracy is SO WEAK that criminals or non-elected people have TAKEN OVER its systems multiple times ?

    in between 180+ million citizens of Pakistan

    - How ?
    - Why ?

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:21 #
  36. * In 1947, 1962, 1970, 1977, 1980, 2002, 2004, 2007, majority of Pakistanis showed their confidence upon Democracy and rejected the Anti-Democratic School of Thought.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:22 #
  37. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @zia m: Tariq Ali is a .. if he blames MULLAH of this nation. I don't EVEN need to read his deliberation. You know why ?

    He doesn't recognize the fact that MULLAHs have NEVER been;

    - in power
    - entrusted with running the state
    - entrusted with managing state's money
    - entrusted with managing state's justice system
    - entrusted with managing state's education system
    - entrusted with managing the state's its defense apparatus

    How the HELL can he accuse MULLAHs for something after knowing this ?

    Its TOTAL! bull!-crap

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:23 #
  38. Anonymous

    I will never take this man Tariq Ali seriously neither will I let this man influence me or how I can think.

    He is a kind of person who takes extreme left and populous and controversial positions just for the sake of looking distinct. He is the kind of person who would probably say after every sentence "aray yeh sab tou jaahil log hein"
    I usually dont give any importance to people like him and I ask other people to do the same.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:25 #
  39. I would like to put up some statements as questions seeking answers by our honorary members:

    -Democracy is a flawed system of government.
    -Democracy is an ideology that is not compatible with Islamic beliefs and Constitution of Pakistan.

    Would appreciate answers through rational approach based on facts.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:25 #
  40. Anonymous

    People like Tariq ali are the kinds you may have seen somewhere in your universities or workplaces. These people make stupid and controversial statements and arguments and then see round with a grin expecting people to get impressed by their wise and out-of-box thinking. People like him are non-serious and attention-seekers. Such people were considered "hot" in 70s and 80s but in this time and age, awam is matured enough to discard people like him.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:28 #
  41. Anonymous

    @semirza, I wish I could find the 100 posts I made in past on this topic.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:29 #
  42. Bsobaid
    I think members participating in this thread should be made aware of what you said on this topic. I am interested too.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:35 #
  43. zia m
    Member

    @bsobaid
    Tariq Ali is a world renowned intellectual.I'm really disappointed at your remarks.
    You have a right to disagree with him but making fun is not very polite.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:45 #
  44. Anonymous

    world renowned intellectual??

    You must be joking. A son of chaudhry who has been living in UK for 40 years and who followed the tail of leftist during cold war earned some shallow popularity in certain circles.

    He is the kind of person who would say out loud that he reads Salman Rushdie just to look "cool". I know people like these very well who like make statements. These are a bunch of non-serious and wealthy lot who are out there to look and sound "cool".

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:52 #
  45. Anonymous

    world renowned intellectual??

    People like him can be found at every corner, just because he has been acknowledged and hung out with some gora people, our people start calling these shallow attention-seekers "world renowned intellectual".

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 19:57 #
  46. My dear Mirza Sahib,

    "-Democracy is a flawed system of government."

    Pakistan was created through the same flawed system and the Qauid-i-Azam accepted, promoted, preached and patronized the same system of Government, through out his political career from 1905 to 1947.

    Democracy might be flawed, still no better substitute has been conceived, practiced and passed the test, to replace Democracy.

    A Theory is a Myth, until it is not put into practice.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 20:13 #
  47. zia m
    Member

    Since when being a son of Chaudhry has become such a terrible thing.
    Just because he criticised Bhutto family you don't have to declare him an idiot.
    Here is a brief description of his career according to Wiki.............

    His public profile began to grow during the Vietnam War, when he engaged in debates against the war with such figures as Henry Kissinger and Michael Stewart. As time passed, Ali became increasingly critical of American and Israeli foreign policies, and emerged as a figurehead for critics of American foreign policy across the globe. He was also a vigorous opponent of American relations with Pakistan that tended to back military dictatorships over democracy.

    Active in the New Left of the 1960s, he has long been associated with the New Left Review. Drawn into revolutionary socialist politics through his involvement with The Black Dwarf newspaper, he joined a Trotskyist party, the International Marxist Group (IMG) in 1968. He was recruited to the leadership of the IMG and became a member of the International Executive Committee of the (reunified) Fourth International.

    During this period he was an IMG candidate in Sheffield Attercliffe at the February 1974 UK general election and was co-author of Trotsky for Beginners, a cartoon book. In 1981, the IMG dissolved when its members entered the Labour Party: the IMG was promptly proscribed. Ali then abandoned activism in the revolutionary left and supported Tony Benn in his bid to become deputy leader of the Labour Party that year.

    In 1990, he published the satire Redemption, on the inability of the Trotskyists to handle the downfall of the Eastern bloc. The book contains parodies of many well-known figures in the Trotskyist movement.

    His book Bush in Babylon criticizes the 2003 invasion of Iraq by American president George W. Bush. This book has a unique style, using poetry and critical essays in portraying the war in Iraq as a failure. Ali believes that the new Iraqi government will fail.

    His previous book, Clash of Fundamentalisms, puts the events of the September 11 attacks in historical perspective, covering the history of Islam from its foundations.

    A former Marxist,[5] Ali has remained a critic of modern neoliberal economics and was present at the 2005 World Social Forum in Porto Alegre, Brazil where he was one of 19 to sign the Porto Alegre Manifesto.

    He has been described as "the alleged inspiration" for the Rolling Stones' song "Street Fighting Man", recorded in 1968 [6]. John Lennon's "Power to the People" was also inspired by an interview Lennon gave to Ali.[7]

    In an article published in CounterPunch, he responded to the Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy and said, "The Bavarian is a razor-sharp reactionary cleric. I think he knew what he was saying and why. In a neo-liberal world suffering from environmental degradation, poverty, hunger, repression, a ‘planet of slums’ (in the graphic phrase of Mike Davis), the Pope chooses to insult the founder of a rival faith. The reaction in the Muslim world was predictable, but depressingly insufficient."[8]

    [edit] Screenplay
    Tariq Ali's The Leopard and The Fox, first written as a BBC screenplay in 1985, is about the last days of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. Never previously produced because of a censorship controversy, it was finally premiered in New York in October 2007, the day before former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir bhutto returned to her home country.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 20:17 #
  48. @Javed Sheikh
    I don't think history agrees with you statements regarding Pakistan and Democracy. Neither do I.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 20:22 #
  49. Dear Mirza Sahib,

    You have right to disagree and keep your position but history is very cruel.

    It is a historical reality that Pakistan was created through a democratic process and the Muslim League participated in the Elections.

    There cannot be further debate on the subject if you deny a fact.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 20:34 #
  50. Anonymous

    @zia, so was I wrong when I called him extreme leftist? Look at the parties he has been a part of. He is a kind of person who idealises Che Guvera in 21st century. His views are childish, immature, rhetorical, imaginary and populist.

    I also think Pakistan was a product of democracy and democratic movement and democracy was the system of government envisaged by Quaid and founding leaders of Pakistan. Quaid's speeches are a proof of that.

    Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 20:39 #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.