Being extreme left does not make him less of an intellectual.
I don't want to make it a thread on Tariq Ali.I will end it here.
PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues
Pakistan and Democracy – Time to be realistic?
(88 posts)-
zia m
MemberPosted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 20:47 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Even the western people have now started to say this left/right stuff is bull-crap, yet OUR people continue to keep hugging it like non-thinking brownies of the west.
Despicable!
Posted 2 years ago on 03 Dec 2009 21:27 # -
shahzad1924
member@adnak - "Can only be done forecefully..."
that's what you think! I didn't say that!
FYI, this ideology cannot leave the hearts of the Muslims even with force. the west has tried and failed. but the Muslims still want Islam to rule over their lives.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 1:53 # -
shahzad1924
member@JS - "In 1947, 1962, 1970, 1977, 1980, 2002, 2004, 2007, majority of Pakistanis showed their confidence upon Democracy and rejected the Anti-Democratic School of Thought."
yeah rite! i hope you would have been a kammi-kameen in a farm in some remote area of Punjab. then I would have asked you why you voted.
but because you probably dont live in Pakistan and you dont have any connection with reality and you just live in the internet world, ill just ignore you this time.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 1:56 # -
shahzad1924
member@bsobaid - "I wish I could find the 100 posts I made in past on this topic."
are you running away from the discussion?
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 2:01 # -
My dear Shahzad,
Were they Kammi-Kameen who voted for Pakistan at the call of Qauid-e-Azam?
Please don't insult the status of the voters who always exercised a Popular and Real Will of the Nation.Create some other point to win the debate.
I was in Pakistan up to 1980 and participated in most of the crucial elections as a voter as well as Returning officer.
You may gauge the popularity of orthodox school of thought in Pakistan by any standard and will be disappointed to find only 2.5% supporters since 1947.
Examine and evaluate what is wrong?Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 2:25 # -
zia m
MemberHere is Tariq Ali's take on democracy in Pakistan.
Mara: Now I have some questions about democracy in Pakistan. The argument is often made that democracy is not possible in Pakistan on account of the feudal system, the high illiteracy rate and the lack of institutions that would support a democratic system. What do you think?
Tariq: Well, look. I don't believe this because I think in the past people in Pakistan have shown that they are perfectly capable of making their voices heard. When there was an alternative, they supported it. I mean when the People's Party won the elections of 1970, the people in the Punjab and Sind and in parts of the Frontier Province voted against their landlords. This means they can do it, because they were promised what, food, clothing, shelter, land reform, health, education. That's what Zulfikar Ali Bhutto promised them. They believed him and they voted for his party. The fact that they're illiterate doesn't matter. You know lots of illiterate people in our part of the world are actually more intelligent than semi-literate or even sometimes literate people. They have a very strong political instinct. They know who’s on their side and who isn't. They hoped that Bhutto would bring about these changes, but he didn't. And that was a massive let down. The same is true of India. When Mrs. Gandhi imposed an emergency in the 70s, people voted her out. So, it's not that democracy is totally dependent on literacy. That is not the case.
What is true is that the institutions of democracy in Pakistan are extremely weak. And, that is a problem. And, here I have to say that in the first phase of the new media which emerged in Pakistan, the discussions which took place in the media were very positive. Now they've been brought under control again. But that opening did help to transmit ideas and diversity into the country. As a whole, the entire movement to put the Chief Justice back into power would not have been possible had it not been for television, where the demonstrations were covered and people were interviewed. People were proud to be associated with that. Many illiterate people turned out to demand that the Chief Justice be put back into power. This was a struggle that had no link to religion or anything like that. It was a straight forward struggle for constitutional rights and the separation of powers. So, I don't like anybody saying that our people aren't ready for democracy. I would sort of rather say the opposite, that the elite in Pakistan have no respect for democracy. And it's disrespect for democracy that makes ordinary people apathetic because they say it doesn't make any difference now
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 2:59 # -
shahzad1924
member@JS
"Were they Kammi-Kameen who voted for Pakistan at the call of Qauid-e-Azam?
Please don't insult the status of the voters who always exercised a Popular and Real Will of the Nation."thanks for bringing up something totally irrelevant to the discussion. this tells me that you have run out of arguments, which is fine with me.
who was talking about "voting for Pakistan"? and nobody "voted" for Pakistan, they gave their lives, their belongings for a state where they could practice "La ilaha illalah".
and calling someone kammi kameen is not an insult. this is only indicative of the racism that is filled inside you. my point was the way in which the chaudaries fill trucks with their kammis and take it to the polling stations. the discussion was not about the social status of a particular section of the society.
"Create some other point to win the debate."
ive already won the debate since you ran away from the discussion.
"You may gauge the popularity of orthodox school of thought in Pakistan by any standard and will be disappointed to find only 2.5% supporters since 1947."
since it seems that you have already done the "gauging", would you kindly tell how you got the magical 2.5 value?
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 3:29 # -
shahzad1924
member@zia m
why are we discussing tariq ali again? haven't we done this umpteen times already on the forum?
didnt you just say;
"I don't want to make it a thread on Tariq Ali.I will end it here."
so, why the sudden urge to start over the discussion?
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 3:31 # -
zia m
MemberThis time it is not about Tariq Ali,it is about democracy.I'm sure you understand the difference.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 3:41 # -
shahzad1924
membersure, i understand the difference. but how is it different from the first time Tariq Ali was brought into the discussion? obviously there are some members who don't agree with his thoughts, which is the reason why the thread went close to becoming a Tariq Ali thread. so, wouldn't posting something from him again would start the same discussion again?
im sure you would understand too.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 3:47 # -
zia m
MemberI have just started a separate thread with his full interview.Some members here may not agree with Quad-e-Azam's views it does not mean we should stop quoting him.
Tariq makes perfect sense here regarding democracy in Pakistan.Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 3:57 # -
No doubt democracy is the best form of government.But there are some essentials for it.Like educated people who can better understand political system & can vote up.unfortunately there is majority uneducated in pakistan.Who don't know really that whats the vote n whats the power of it.
For more on vibePosted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 6:32 # -
democracy takes shape changes in order to adjust with the demands of a particular society structure ,values and insight of the majority of the ppl.
but in Pakistan, unfortunately ,democracy has taken a shape of 'CIVILION DICTATORSHIP'....
all the powers belongs to one person.
he is the king ...he is the commandar ..
he is the captain ...he is the sole decision maker .so result can never be expected in favor of public.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 7:03 # -
shahzad1924
member@zia m
"I have just started a separate thread with his full interview."
okay good.
"Tariq makes perfect sense here regarding democracy in Pakistan."
well, i wouldn't agree with you on this. as i said, its not about weakness of the institutions, its about the ideology that is close to the hearts of the Muslims of Pakistan. that ideology is in complete opposition to the western liberal values, secularism and democracy. and experience has shown the common man that neither democracy nor dictatorship can solve the problems. only Islam has a complete solution.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 11:30 # -
Bottom Line:
In a society where Democracy, Dictatorship, Secularism, Administration, Business, and all the vital institutions almost failed,
how Islamic System would succeed?If a very 'Sincere' Muslim like Zia-ul-Haq, with the coordination of all the most Authentic Religious Pundits of Pakistan, could not achieve the desired objectives within 10 years, who else is at the horizon, 'better' than him?
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 11:49 # -
on one side there is army dictators and on the other side civilian corrupt and impotent rulers like zardari.
it is difficult to decide,
3rd option is taliban.in my view, army dictators always arrange corrupt civilian politicians to prove that
people become fed up within 6 months after army rule and start saying that Mush was better than zardari.people of pakistan are the main victims of army dictators and zardariiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 12:28 # -
shahzad1924
member@JS
"In a society where Democracy, Dictatorship, Secularism, Administration, Business, and all the vital institutions almost failed,
how Islamic System would succeed?"its like saying....."In an petrol engine where milk, water, Pepsi and roof afza have failed, how can petrol succeed?"
"If a very 'Sincere' Muslim like Zia-ul-Haq, with the coordination of all the most Authentic Religious Pundits of Pakistan, could not achieve the desired objectives within 10 years, who else is at the horizon, 'better' than him?"
Zia was an American puppet. need i say more?
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 13:42 # -
1. Even Petrol would fail like Milk , pepsi, water and rooh afza, if there is not a quailified driver.
The Motor will be crashed as it crashed previously.Many mechanics and technicians tried to put it on the road what is now sitting in Balal Ganj Market.
2. Why and how, JI, PDP, 9 Stars, Lashkar-i-Janghvi, Sipah-i-Sahaba and the Great Anti-American Gen. Hamid Gul failed to recognize Gen Zia, the American Puppet?
3. How this news came so late?
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 13:58 # -
Pakistan was created based on a ‘Two Nation Theory’. Two nations being India a Hindu majority nation and Pakistan a Muslim majority. Referendums were held and large areas acceded to both according to this theory.
Democracy as a Westernized ideology failed to maintain a stronghold in Pakistan and in other nation states because of its inherent flaws that are somewhere somehow not in accordance to a Muslim majority nation such as Pakistan. The following may help to understand such incompatibilities:Charter of Medina was first constitution during the Prophet’s life which was drawn by Prophet Muhammad 500-600 years before the Magna Charta. Charter of Medina established out a federal rule over the tribe system. This pact was signed by the Prophet and the main non-Muslim tribes – Pagans, Christians and Jews. This charter, which was based upon the strong principles of Islam: equality, freedom and cooperation, became a way of life for the citizens of Medina.
It is very important to note that the Compact of Medina was quite democratic in nature. Muslims and non-Muslims were considered equal citizens and they enjoyed full religious autonomy. Principles of equality, consensual governance, and pluralism were central to this compact. It is quite amazing to see that the interpretation of Prophet Muhammad was very democratic, tolerant and compassionate while this is not case with hard liner Muslims like Taliban who are very intolerant, authoritarian and harsh. Main reason of this behavior of Taliban and other hardliner Muslims is lack of knowledge and a broader vision of Islam.
Some of the distinct features of the rule of Prophet Muhammad and his immediate successors (Four Caliphs named: Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman and Ali) are as follows:
1) The rule of Law and equality of its implementation.
2) There was supremacy of the Quran and Hadith while options of Ijma and Ijtihaad
were adopted using Quran and Hadith.3) Consultation was the basic mechanism for decision-making for the selection of
political leadership at all levels. First four Caliphs (Rulers) were selected by the
consent of majority.4) Human rights protection and contractual obligations in respect to the Muslims in
general and to the minorities, states and communities in particular has been a
prominent feature of Muslim polity most of the time.5) The separation of the judiciary from the executives and its total independence was
another prominent feature of Muslim polity.6) Social security system mainly based upon:
-Zakat (Compulsory transfer payments from the rich to the poor).
-Sadqah (Voluntary charity contribution).
-Waqf (trust foundation) leads to the economic balance of society.7) Just, logical and dissent opposition- from individuals as well as from groups- was encouraged.
After golden era of Prophet Muhammad and his successors, Muslim political history has been diverse and it contains many experiments made by different Muslim generations. This is a natural phenomenon that some individuals misuse given authority and power and some Muslims have been doing this too. But in Islamic history there have been many just, sincere and God conscious rulers.
Present Situation:
During last 200 years Muslims have been under colonialism and they have suffered intellectually, morally, economically and culturally but mostly Muslims themselves are to be blamed for their problems since generally they ignored their teachings and values. This era resulted in the division of Muslims into two main groups.1): those who are extremely (more than required) liberal and have very materialistic attitude.
2): those who are very rigid on their religious beliefs and show very little flexibility in their concepts.
Colonialism directly empowered first group; this group in general did not had strong roots in Islamic faith, knowledge, culture and history.
On the other hand religious lot did not actively participated in political and social changes and adopted a rigid stance.
This was one of the mistakes of religious people that to some extent they ignored dynamic aspects of Islam.Both groups made mistakes: First group ignored the spiritual aspect of Islam while religious class ignored dynamic aspect of Islam.
Presently most Muslim countries are at impasse, some Muslim leaders and religious authorities are trying to misuse Islam for vested interests. Dysfunctional, corrupt, repressive Muslim states so far do not have enough infrastructure, power and individuals to bring reforms.
Puppet, coward and corrupt leaders are ruling most of Muslim countries and people there do not have enough participation into the decisions which affect their own lives.
Radicalism results from apathy and despair and it is evident in most of the Muslim countries.
Islam and Democracy – Zaheer AbbasPosted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 14:02 # -
* Not only all of the above distinct features of the Charter of Madina are in the 1973 Constitution of Pakistan but it also includes some extra adjustments through 'options of Ijma and Ijtihaad'.
* A copy of American Constitution is lying in front of my keyboard and it looks 99% closer to the Charter of Madina with the only 1% difference that here they call Khalifa as President.
What is the Debate?
Just to change the label at the bottle carrying the same liquid?Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 14:47 # -
islamic system was introduced by Mohammad PBUH, and remained inforce in true terms for 40 yaers till Hazrat Ali RAU.
Can we get now a days leadership like Mohammad PBUH, Abubakr RAU, Umer RAU, Usman RAU, Ali RAU, ?
all our history after early 40/50 years is monarchy, rule of kings, princes, son after son till Turk khilafat (sick man of Europe). Is it islamic system no.
today any body if talks about islamic system refers mulla umer,
if someone advocates khliafat talks day light dream.
it can be used as acedimic use but can not be implemented in real terms.
I am not against islam (nauz billah), but what i want to explain is that unless true muslim personality is come forward, we can not implement islam.
mulla sees islam as only prayings, nothing else.
islamic system is as elaborated by Mohammad PBUH is based on some principals.
these islamic principals can be seen in Norway, USA, Uk and some other civilized nations.
do not see their actions against muslims, yes they are cruel but with their anti forces,
they are very sincere with their own nation/country, even more sincere than us.fact is fact and we should appreciate.
amel kansi murdered in usa and escaped to paksitan,
usa took years and spent millions of $$$$$$ to find him out and suceeded. i remember that at those days, one american said, pakistanis can sell their mother for $$$$$$$$$, so many people in pakistan condenmed this statement, today, think over that statement again, is it not true? Mush sold so many pakistanis against $$$$$$$$ including Dr. Afia and accepted in his book.what i want to mention is that we should first correct ourselves, our charachter and then we should critisize other nations.
having rent a jehad criminals in our own ranks is best example why USA treats us badly. because everyone here is on sale, no matter that is mulla, army general or politicaisn.
pay $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to anyone, and all are ready to serve better than predecessors.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 15:14 # -
@Shahzad1924
'its about the ideology that is close to the hearts of the Muslims of Pakistan. that ideology is in complete opposition to the western liberal values, secularism and democracy.'
--------------------------------------------------------
I fully agree with you on this:
Western liberal values sum up into fascist neocons and their stooges.
We have nothing in common with our hindu neighbor except a 'two nation theory'. For the rest we are in stark contrast to each other. A secular democracy suits them most as they have more types and a higher percentage of religious minorities than compared to us. A tiny percentage of non Muslim minorities is pushing an agenda of non Muslims ideologies to be imposed on a large and overwhelming majority in Pakistan through a false pretext of westernized human rights, while human rights is itself deep rooted within our own ideology you mentioned and therefore we need not and seek none other than ‘Pakistan ka matlab kiya...La Ay laha il lillah!
You may be aware of their extreme displeasure with us when a rare incident happening in Pakistan is blown out of proportion exposing them and their vicious designs fully as proponents of negative propaganda against Pakistan.
Democracy as a westernized concept of rule/system remains alien to Muslim Pakistan and therefore never has and will never be successful.Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 15:24 # -
jaypk
Member@mirza...sorry fr being ignorant but do you mind elaborate on:
A tiny percentage of non Muslim minorities is pushing an agenda of non Muslims ideologies to be imposed on a large and overwhelming majority in Pakistan through a false pretext of human rights
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 15:45 # -
Total percentage of non Muslims as minorities when compared with a large Muslim majority.
In case you need further detailed information,figures are available on the net!Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 15:48 # -
jaypk
Member@mirza..thanks...but whd i meant was "A tiny percentage of non Muslim minorities is pushing an agenda of non Muslims ideologies to be imposed on a large and overwhelming majority in Pakistan through a false pretext of westernized human rights"
whds the agenda? and tht false pretext of westernized human rights?
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 15:57 # -
It is not only non-Muslim Minority but also a Muslim Majority which wants to follow the footsteps of Mohammad Ali Jinnah and Allama Iqbal, what might be non Muslim Ideology for a section of society.
'Non Muslim Ideology' has already been entered the DNA of Pakistan since 1947.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 15:59 # -
Bhutto got those seeded non Muslim DNA hiding under the cloak of Islam as Muslims and going by the name of qadiyanis declared as non Muslims. They joined their non Muslim minority brothers since a long time now. Sadly they are and will remain a minority within Pakistan.
Reality remains a reality that majority Pakistan is kalma go Muslim who believe in one Allah (ST) and Mohammed (pbuh) as his last prophet.
I may end my case here.Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 16:10 # -
Once again we have reached the Zero Level.
It could be just a co-incident where Qadyanis might be involved to support those 80% non-practicing kalma-go Muslims who believe in Allah and Mohammad PBHU but also want to enter the domains of modern decent livings like other developed Nations of the World.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 16:25 # -
netengr
blockedhehehe :)
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 16:34 # -
The Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan-1973
1. (1) Pakistan shall be Federal Republic to be known as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as Pakistan................
2. Islam shall be the State religion of Pakistan..................
Westernized democracy as a system is alien to the above two!
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 16:35 # -
"Pakistan was created based on a ‘Two Nation Theory’"
What we gained and what we lost is evident to every one of us.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 16:37 # -
jaypk
Member@mirza ...whd do they have to do with our democracy?????? if they are minority and we dont accept them as muslims and kill them and write off kalima frm thr mosques..thts a diff issue altogether..let our enlightened ulemas handle it like thay have been handling it efficiently..i dn understand...time after time..they prop up in any thread..with no attachment whdsoever...whd does it all have to do with our democracy and governance of system as a country?
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 16:39 # -
This is another type of terrorism.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 16:41 # -
jaypk
Member@adnak..???
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 17:05 # -
Pakistan created through a Westernized Democratic System having all of the Westernized Infra-Structure and inhabited by human beings with a strong desire to follow the Westernized Developed Nations, living on the Westernized Merchandise, cannot go for an illusion.
I should not expect that my Toyota Corolla, or Nissan Sentra would fly in the air like Boeing 707.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 17:11 # -
shahzad1924
member@JS
"The Motor will be crashed as it crashed previously."
but that's not the engine's fault. and we are not talking about people (driver) here, we are talking about the systems (engine).
"Why and how, JI, PDP, 9 Stars, Lashkar-i-Janghvi, Sipah-i-Sahaba and the Great Anti-American Gen. Hamid Gul failed to recognize Gen Zia, the American Puppet?"
ask them!
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 17:14 # -
amirbutt
MemberPakistan should have a ruling system only as per the wishes of Mohammad Ali Jinnah.
Posted 2 years ago on 04 Dec 2009 19:26 #
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