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Pakistan - as described by a Talib

(86 posts)
  1. ”…But other countries that have done even worse than Americans have escaped notice. Countries like Egypt, Jordan and Pakistan, supported by the United States, are committing acts that cannot be justified by any law, Islamic or otherwise. Look at Pakistan, our neighbour. How does it treat Afghans?

    Pakistan, which plays a key role in Asia, is so famous for treachery that it is said they can get milk from a bull. They have two tongues in one mouth, and two faces on one head so they can speak everybody’s language; they use everybody, deceive everybody. They deceive the Arabs under the guise of Islamic nuclear power, saying that they are defending Islam and Islamic countries. They milk America and Europe in the alliance against terrorism, and they have been deceiving Pakistani and other Muslims around the world in the name of Kashmiri jihad. But behind the curtain, they have been betraying everyone.

    Their Islam and their jihad were to destroy their neighbouring Islamic country together with the infidels. They handed over their airports to the Americans so they could kill Muslims and destroy an Islamic country. Their loyalty to the Arabs is so great that they sold diplomats, journalists and mujahideen for dollars. Like animals. God knows whether they will ever use their nuclear bombs to defend Muslims and Islam. They might use their weapons- as they have used everything else- against Muslims ”

    -

    This is an excerpt from the book ' My life with the Taliban' by Abdul Salam Zaeef - Afghan ambassador to Pakistan from 2000-2001

    What do you think about the humiliation?

    They seem to hate us , while we are believed to be supporting them covertly. Confusing. Excuse my lack of knowledge on the issue, but I really dont understand the double game accusation laid on Pakistan after reading this book.

    Note: I am NOT a Taliban supporter and neither is this post intended to fuel hatred for Taliban. Just a general dicussion.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 1:12 #
  2. Hey, that sounds like ME!...And it is!!! :-P

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 2:00 #
  3. Ahaan!

    Any help on the covert support allegation confusion?

    Btw, my views based on what I read :

    http://natashasuleman.wordpress.com/2010/08/15/pakistan-speaking-everybodys-language/

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 2:06 #
  4. shimatoree
    Member

    In 2007 I wrote an article on PKP " Views of a Puktoon" where I spelt out in detail what was being done by the Pakistani govt. Needless to say with the exception of a fwe thinkers like nota etc- I was subjected to vitriol of all kinds.

    Then after the Swat invasion- I wrote an interview with a Taliban Commander which was kept in the freezer for a while then I placed it on my blog CrazyHorse.
    Well the same group once again threw tons of vitriol on me and the ideas put forth in that article.

    What the Govt of Pakistan and it's forces did to Mullah Zaeef -( Ambassador of Afghanistan in Pakistan at the time)at the specific instruction of Musharraf can only be described as inhumane and treacherous.

    The damage done and being done as speak to the country by Musharraf and Zardari regimes cannot be undone in one million light years.
    The most shocking thing to me is that there are actually people who have supported and still support the policies and the perpetrators of this policy.

    nota has carried a one man struggle against this and I have and I will always have nothing but admiration for him .

    The Earthquake and the flood- if you are the type that believes in God's wrath -then God's wrath is coming because no one in Pakistan stood up against the modern Yazids ( Musharraf and Zardari).

    Yes no one stood up. And yet the same crowd is trumpeting democracy democracy again and again. What democracy when no one stands up for what they believe in and what they are supposed to stand for.
    Wasif Ali Wasif said very well-

    quote " you live like Yazid and you want to be treated like Hussein " or something like that.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 2:34 #
  5. shimatoree
    Member

    What Mullah Zaeef has done is NOT the view of a Talib-

    but that of a human being who was a guest in Pakistan- a diplomate and it was the responsibility of the govt of Pakistan to protect him.
    They did not do that.
    They gave him to the Americans. And before doing that they beat him and kicked him

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 2:36 #
  6. Is Pakistan really supporting them? I think that is all B.S. Sure Pakistan might be supporting a warlord or two but that is purely to further Pakistan's own (perceived) interests and those have nothing to do with the interests of the Talibans or Afghans (any benefit they get is an unintended consequence)

    "Having said all that , I believe that those enforcing themselves as the soldiers of Islam must also be properly dealt with. Those butchering my people in the name of my religion are much bigger enemies than those who are responsible for throwing us into this quicksand."

    Not fair. And based on too many (incorrect) assumptions. And that is what I call putting the 'Samar Mianallah blinders' on -- Make a mountain out of a molehill and pretending the real mountain does not exist.

    BTW: Why are your own killing your own in Balochistan (16 were killed today for nothing but being 'Punjabis'). 13 were killed by a drone strike today in FATA/NT -- is that too the Taliban's fault (or do you believe the dead were 'Taliban' so no problem? And what is happening in Karachi? Of course that is the fault of Taliban too, since RM says so ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 2:40 #
  7. Ah, @shimatoree is here. He can rid you of your confusion much better than me....
    :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 2:43 #
  8. Are you saying that those who bomb and 'claim responsibility' should not be criticised or is that also cooked up by the media?

    I dont believe RM for his Karachi nonsense though.

    Whoever kills innocent people for vested interests is an enemy in my eyes, be they millitants seeking tickets to paradise or our very one jawans from the ghairatmand army.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 2:51 #
  9. Shimatoree ,

    may I have the link to that interview please?

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 2:57 #
  10. "Are you saying that those who bomb and 'claim responsibility' should not be criticised or is that also cooked up by the media?"

    Exactly where did I say that? All I am saying just because it is in the media does not make it the truth. Just because some "spokesperson" claims it does not mean it is so. Here's an example (DO also see my comments at the link). Or how about the case recently featured right here? Let me say here that I DO believe most/all of the attacks carried out on security personal/installations are the work of militants (and you can condemn them for it if you please) but those on civilians are certainly NOT, no matter who accepts responsibility.

    Secondly, if you DO decide to take part in a "WAR", it does imply you are going to be dished what you are trying to dish out (isn't that what makes it a "war"?). And when it does happens, why all the screaming?

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 3:09 #
  11. shimatoree
    Member

    Natasha-

    The interview has been deleted due to considerations other than scholarship.

    I will try to search my data that I do have from a hard drive that crashed about 3 months ago.

    If I do then I will communicate with you. Thanks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 3:33 #
  12. shimatoree
    Member

    Natasha-

    Your quote "Whoever kills innocent people for vested interests is an enemy in my eyes, be they millitants seeking tickets to paradise or our very one jawans from the ghairatmand army."

    Who is innocent ?

    A non-combatant , a non-combatant who furnishes information for material gain or a non-combatant who just happens to be around the target ?

    Or should we also label those as innocent who remained by standers in Iraq while Imam Hussein and his 72 companions were killed at Karbala.

    My view( a Pukhtoon) is very simple.

    If I am going to take my revenge from you and your friends are around you- well if they get hurt that is too bad. It is not my purpose to hurt them but they were there.
    Collateral damage-you know the term.

    The drones and the bombs used by those that sit in airplanes and do not have the guts to come and face their enemies- well they bomb and kill lots of people who live there.Collateral damage !

    My indictment of the people of Pakistan is far more severe. It is they who did not stand up for people of Afghanistan the massacre perpetrated by the USA and it's cronies.
    Quite a lot of them supported the USA and like all subservient people at once adopted western mores and ways to please their masters from Washington.

    The Bombing of Data Darbar cannot be justified since it was not a military target.
    But we do not know if the Talibs carried it out . But attacking the military targets is justified as the military is primarily responsible for what has happened in NWFP and FATA. There is a war.
    If you kill my people I am justified in coming after those that killed my people. How is a matter of logistics and convenience and opportunity.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 3:49 #
  13. shirazi
    Member

    I can understand the language, tone and frustration of mullah Zaeef. He was captured and tortured as ambassador defying all international norms. But frankly he has no right to play Islamic card or criticize Pakistan.

    When Taliban brutally took over Kabul they also ruthlessly killed fellow Muslims by the support of ISI. They were part and parcel of dirty games hatched by ISI. When ISI turned against them they came to know real face of ISI.

    Taliban had the opportunity to disassociate themselves from Arabs and not only remain in power but also get foreign help to build much needed infrastructure for Afghans. Instead they opted present route and are now complaining that Pakistan ditched them. They had seen what ISI did with Hikmat Yaar they should have evaluated plan B in case ISI decided to go with US as per their public announcements after 911. People like Hamid Gul might not matter as much as they had in the past.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 3:57 #
  14. shirazi
    Member

    @shimatoree

    I agree with your definition of collateral damage and understand that as part and parcel of conflict from either side. In this mess their is a clear conflict in interest. Pakistan Army either had to fight along side NATO forces against Talibans or against NATO forces along side Talibans. They had no third option as far as I can see. Right or wrong they chose former.

    Now my question is simple where do you stand? As Pukhtoon with Taliban or as an ex-Army officer with your Army? Please keep in mind both sides are Muslim and can rightfully justify their positions.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 4:14 #
  15. shimatoree
    Member

    Shirazi-

    You can ask the question. But you need to know a few facts.

    As I speak my family members are in the army involved in the operations in Bajaur and Mohamand. While others are on the other side.

    As Khan_ Sahib said I am a double agent !

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 4:17 #
  16. shimatoree
    Member

    Shirazi- I am going to indulge in a diatribe of my own and here it goes-

    your diatribe against the Taliban is false and un-called for. It lacks merit and is without foundation. It is based on what (now a days passes for knowledge) you know from news media channels of the West and westoxicated Pakistanis.

    I had expected a thoughtful and scholarly analysis. Was I wrong in my expectation ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 4:21 #
  17. shirazi
    Member

    @shimatoree

    I was against Taliban when they were coming in power and the kind of leadership they provided and radical Islam they practiced reinforced my views against them. I 'd have opposed this sort of radical regime no matter what as I oppose probably better version of it in Saudi Arabia. So my views are very clear on them.

    I am not sure about your views. You seem to selectively support them, I am not sure why? Because of common ethnicity? or you were impressed with their extreme right world view? or their courageous stand against west? or something else?

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 4:31 #
  18. shimatoree
    Member

    Shirazi-

    you want a canned answer. I won't give that.
    Suffice it to say that ethnicity is always a factor but keep in mind my own are also fighting them with the army.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 4:35 #
  19. @Natasha
    Do watch this bit from the Frontline documentary 'The return of the Taliban' from 2006 (he whole of it is worth watching but I am focusing here on one example -- that of Naik Muhammed):

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 7:51 #
  20. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    MULLAH Zaeef is perfectly correct.

    People of Pakistan are scared of 'death', they want too much of luxuries of life. People of Pakistan are incessantly crazed with uncontrolled desires, uncontrolled lust, for luxuries, for materials, for new toys.

    It will take Pakistani nation a lot of bloodshed for them to realize what life really is, how it is lived.

    ..the good news is, bloodshed is coming, its right around the corner. People of Pakistan are finally going to get what they opted for i.e., an indiscriminate, endless, merciless slaughter of them.

    That is the only way they'll 'accept' retribution. They chose a life of misery for themselves, a life of slavery at the hands of non-Muslims, and they have chosen a meaningless death. Well .. so be it.

    I want the slaughter to begin sooner than later. I don't want to waste my life in paying for wrongdoings of past generations. They will have to pay for it themselves!.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 8:06 #
  21. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    As far as Pak Army, and also people of Pakistan are concerned, their unjust;

    (1) nature
    (2) nature of being dishonest
    (3) nature of wanting to be slaves for acquiring luxuries of life
    (4) lust for having 'power' and more! 'power' that they did not deserve to have
    (5) lust of living outside their means
    (6) lust to be 'cowards'

    has made us see this day.

    Mark my words. They will ALL pay very very dearly for it. For they have committed so much treachery in the past 60+ years, they have alienated ALL Muslims from themselves. No one is left to come to their support.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 8:15 #
  22. HK, one question for you alone on your last para above. Who exactly has been giving support to the Afghan Resistance in their fight against the invaders, which Muslim country? Pakistan, one would think to answer. But from all I read above, Pakistan is apparently a consummate double-game player, so it's support is worth zilch. Why then should Pak expect different if ever, God forbid, it needed serious help from others?

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 8:30 #
  23. shimatoree, one question for you, please. You mention your own blog CrazyHorse. Any chance of an address for it or have you given up writing there?

    To all: Dear bloggers above, you gave us one day of peace, more or less. Very kind and considerate of you. Thanks. And there we go again, indulging in our favourite pastime: Pakistan bashing. Best of luck to all.

    Forget your enemy, the west which gave us the 13 drone deaths on our National Day as they gave us Saddam's execution on the day of Eid. The middle classes having a high old time airing their obsessions. More power to them.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 8:41 #
  24. Shimatoree ,

    Thanks , I hope it'll be worth waiting for.

    Nota,

    I will , thanks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 11:08 #
  25. So how do you decide which attacks are carried out by the Taliban and which not? You have to depend on the media for everything.

    As far as I know , when they are involved , they take pride in accepting responsibility.Something they do every now and then. There's hardly any denial. If they are being framed , why no denial?

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 11:59 #
  26. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    President Ronald Regan introduced the Afghan Militant to the Western Press by saying, "they are the heroes of the century". A full support was taken from the United States against the Soviets. It was still named as Jihad. Pakistan's decision to be power broker was absolutely wrong. We are till today paying costs for those brokerage deals.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 12:34 #
  27. Natasha, I usually stay off anything to do with the Taliban, a word as meaningless to me as say, Al Qaeda, etc.

    But to your last comment I'd like so say I share your perception. "As far as I know , when they are involved , they take pride in accepting responsibility.Something they do every now and then." That is also a rule of thumb with me.

    Why no denials? Perhaps because they feel it's beneath their honour and dignity to deny something which they so obviously have had no hand in.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 15:02 #
  28. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib-

    the blog is-

    crazyhorse.pkpolitics.com.

    You might be shocked but keep the faith.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 15:39 #
  29. shimatoree
    Member

    HF-

    Try to graduate from the university of newspapers and TV channels

    and move into the thinking crowd, Please.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 15:41 #
  30. These Talibans and other Afghans are world's biggest ungrateful people. I have never met an Afghani who ever thanked Pakistan for what our nation has done for them. State of Pakistan and people of Pakistan have done so much for them and in return we have received mess, trouble and abuses. Abundance of drugs and especially arms in today's Pakistan is a gift from Afghans during Afghan Fasad of 1980s. And now Afghani talibans have exported their intolerant ideology into our country and are blowing up our cities and killing innocent citizens.

    This deceptive character mulla Zaeef whose country once was harbouring AlQaeda terrorists is world's number one liar and ungrateful conman and now he is blaming Pakistan. Shame on him. We have suffered so much because of Afghans and we have world’s largest number of Afghan refugees living in our country for the last 30 years causing huge burden on our economic resources. It is now high time we send all Afghan refugees back to Afghanistan and fence our western borders by securing all border exit/entry points. A proper visa entry system should be in place for all Afghan nationals; no more gravy train. Our country should no longer become meal ticket of Afghanis. Our Afghan policy of last 30 years has been a total failure and it is time to change the policy to look after and serve Pakistani interests. Mulla Zaeef’s book of lies should be banned in Pakistan as well as his entry into our country.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 15:45 #
  31. shimatoree
    Member

    Natasha-

    It is hard but we ought to try to look at this thing( Taliban phenomenon) from a multi-dimensional eye. There many factors and many things.

    Let me just share a few of my own experiences -

    A member of my family was kidnapped in Peshawer.
    Quite a lot of people said the Talibs had done it.
    Once we recovered him-( paid ransom) and the culprits were arrested- we found

    that the incident was the brain child of a group of policemen allied with criminals and local political operatives- 7 of whom were arrested- 2 are still at large.
    Once this happened- a Jirga from the families of the arrested came to us asking us to drop charges so that their people could be freed.
    We said please pay back 35 lacs that was paid as ransom and we will withdraw the charges. They said no and so those people are still in prison and we have to keep weapons and guards for our protection.

    There is total lack govt in Frontier(KP) and has been ever since this regime of PPP has come to power. I know that Sakha Kote-( Malakand agency)- is the head quarter of the kidnapping business-( or at least was before the flood). Big name politicians are involved in this business and of course it is they who remain clean in the eyes of the news media.
    Anyone and everyone is naming the Talibs in the kidnapping game.

    I am just telling about one very small facet of the phenomenon of the Taliban.
    There are many other facets.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 15:52 #
  32. scindian
    Member

    God knows truth !

    Pakistan as describe by A Talib i didnt read this book but sentiment of a Talib written in few paragraphs are true dipiction of Aghan Nationalist and socialist rather than religeouse Jihadi Aghan.but however blaiming whole Pakistani people for current Aghan crises is injustice with silent mojority in Pakistan, which always have opposed such kind of psydo-islamic behavior.

    Poeple of KPK were used as fuel for capitalist and communist great game. These emotionaly plagued mountaineouse people come down frequently to teach the lesson thier Ex-partners at streets of Lahor

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 17:21 #
  33. shimatoree, thanks. Of course, I will, have always done so, always will.

    I must add that, for once, ST's and Scindian's comments also found resonance in me and got me to thinking again. Thanks to them, too.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 17:49 #
  34. Scindian,

    Zaeef does draw a comparison between the nation and its representatives elsewhere in the book.

    Sweettruth,

    Yes the Afghans must leave.FATA be brought under proper Pakistani rule and Afghans be dealt as AFGHANS and not as Pakistani pathans.

    Yes they have been thankless. Your blood boils as a Pakistani when that good-for-nothing Karzai blames Pakistan for EXPORTING terror to his country where in reality , we bore the brunt of the two wars more than anyone else.

    But one thing , this PASHTUN factor undermines everything. It all comes down to being a PASHTUN when priotrities are to be set. I am sorry my comments might hurt many here , but I have observed immense racism in the Pashtuns. Its always 'us' VS 'them' for these people. I may be wrong in my observation ,but thats what it is for me.

    ANP is Pashtun and so are Taliban - enemies in their own lands - and outside - BROTHERS protecting Pashtun HONOUR.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 19:43 #
  35. shimatoree
    Member

    Natasha-

    etu Brute ! Your comment does indicate that a few pieces of knowledge about the Pushtoons is in order.

    ANP is a Pustun political party. Like any political party it uses it's slogans towards it's vote bank. No different than any other political party. What you call Racism is not that but an allegience based on language. And yes on matters of language we-( I am one) are very clanish and tribal.

    The Taliban which started as a social welfare movement to eradicate socila ills was thrust into a position due the political vaccum in Afghanistan. Once they got there- their thrust became the establishment of an Islamic State in Afghanistan because simply put Islam is the only common link between the Pushtoo, the Uzbeck, the Tajik and the Hazara. Other political forces-( Pakistan, Arabs etc) got entangled and things went from worse to worst till we are where we are today.

    I assume your last sentence points to the problems in Karachi. Well, the old Pushto saying holds true there.

    Quote " me and my brother against my cousin
    me and my cousin against the others
    me and my cousin and all other Pushtoons against non pushtoons "

    But the Pushtoons are no different than the Urdu speakers or the Sindhi speakers.

    A bit of fairness is expected.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 20:19 #
  36. @natasha

    Well described and good analysis
    Well, I know and we all know this "Pashtoon" factor which is also the main reason for the backwardness of both Pakistani and Afghan Pashtoons. Pakistani Pashtooons have made some social/economic progress but Afghan remains centuries behind and chances are they will not change for another 100 years. We must send Afghans back to their country and fence border to protect our country.

    We don't need mulla Zaeef of taliban mafia to criticize us; these people are ungrateful and Afghans are good at back stabbing. Our Afghan policy has failed and we are still sticking with that failed policy.

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 20:37 #
  37. shirazi
    Member

    Pushtoons are racist like any other race. I have yet to see a person who is not proud of his or her race. 911 was result a reaction to west's policies in ME. Before that war between capitalist and communist world culminated in Pushtoon land. For past three decades or so Pushtoons were recklessly used by haves to settle their disputes in the name of religion. Perhaps Sardars are only other race who can offer their backyard so generously.10/10 on resiliency 0/10 on using brains .....

    Posted 1 year ago on 15 Aug 2010 21:03 #
  38. bublibangash
    Member

    Natasha, your article if viewed letting aside the sentiments of patriotism and national loyalty, is truth…… its shameful but a fact….

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 6:32 #
  39. bublibangash
    Member

    pakistan support for the afghan jihad was not for the holy purpose of jihad but personal interests associated with the concept.......

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 6:36 #
  40. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    shimatoree

    Your suggestions are as strange as your nickname. Anyway, thanks for your friendly suggestion. That is somehow impractical for me. LOL

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 7:03 #
  41. scindian
    Member

    shima turi bieng resident of Aghania Mountains can better understand the situation around there.Tori Tribe being shia and Mughal-turk decendant may potray taliban Picture very well.
    People of Kurrum and Miranzai valley (pakistan)and paktia province of aghanistan have been religeuosly victimized by Bushy faced Talibans.[1]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turi_(tribe)

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 13:41 #
  42. shimatoree
    Member

    Scindia-

    Taliban are a collection of a lot of different tribal Pushtoon groups from different tribes who have only one uniting factor- Islam and their interpretation of Islam.

    They are not educated at Oxford or Cambridge or Harvard or any such place where intellectual stuff like literature etc is taught. Their international perspective is limited to Afghanistan and the adjacent areas of Pakistan.

    They can only do what they can do based on the limitations of their environment and their background.
    Yes they are ferocious fighters and they do not know how to quit. They are very brave and resilient and in their own way very resourceful.

    The political forces around them are substantial-( USA, Russia, Pakistan, Iran etc).

    We must keep these things in mind when we examine them.

    Unfortunately here and everywhere- people blame them for their actions as though they were graduates of Oxford or some such thing.

    But let me give a warning to those intoxicated by the Western Ways who continuously blame them.

    They are here to Stay.

    Get used to it and modify YOUR behavior towards them because if you do not- then you will be facing them- and be sure THEY will not Lose- you will.
    You can call them names and use your media savy techniques to malign them- but you will have to face them on the battle field and there You will lose.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 14:05 #
  43. shimatoree, Don't we know it? Anyone who's seen a Pukhtoon in action knows it. And conceives a deep, abiding respect for the people for whom fear is only a word in face of any danger to their vision of the world.

    I think no one is left indifferent to the Pukhtoon, that's the problem. Either they scare the daylights out of us or we respect and love them for life.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 14:19 #
  44. shirazi
    Member

    @shimatoree

    Thanks for the warning and advise. Despite your elite education and military background you seem to have adjusted to their life style very well and now want others to follow your foot steps.

    No wonder 90 thousand of you surrendered in east Pakistan. Army comprised of soldiers like you (defeated mentality) doesn't deserve 30% of our GDP. Why we need half million Army if writing on the wall is that Taliban will never loose? Your suggestion is to surrender to Talibans like we did to India. It seems like our Army's only proud moment is when they use two trucks and jeep to take over President house , PM house and Parliament.

    Oh I forgot in this war you are not standing by your old institution Army but by your holy warriors Taliabns and that's why you are trying to scare everyone of this monster.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 14:30 #
  45. shimatoree
    Member

    Shirazi-

    It appears that I was wrong about you.

    End of story.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 15:10 #
  46. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib -

    I wrote the above trying to get people on the other side to get a handle on what they think- in other words "be analytical of the political forces and their dynamics going froward.

    As you can see by the comment made by Shirazi- the old saying holds true-

    You can a take a camel to water in the oasis but you cannot make him drink.

    We have essentially two political forces in the region-( with many sub-factions)- the westernzied elite who have had control of Pakistan for 64 years and the new emerging forces of Islamic movement which have started asserting themselves. Whether we like it or not- the Islamic forces are here to stay. All slogans about patriotism, terrorism etc will not change that.
    A large majority of the people of Pakistan are in the middle both physically and and politically but it must be said in all honesty that their symapthies are at present with the Islamic forces simply because the other party has been tried and found to be no good.
    The Islamic forces are not just one homogenous group- they have factions of all kinds and it is quite possible that the faction that finally get to rule might not be very good but that is political dynamics for you which is always very fluid and the direction where this fluid goes is determined by factors that do not even exist to day.

    If you look at the Iranian Revolution- initially the educated intellectual types like Bani sadr and Ghotbzadeh were supposed to be the leaders . Their philosophical basis from Ali Shariati and Jala Ale Ahmad was supposed to be the engine that drove the revolution. The dynamics changed. Dymnamics changed because the situation on the ground evolved in different direction and it came from a direction which no one had imagined. The Mosque based Mullah and the religious hierarchy suddenly became a lot more powerful thanks to the atrocities committed by the Shah and the transformation of that atrocity in to a modern Karbala.

    So in Pakistan, the situation is very fluid but the direction that fluid flow is against the westernzied minority no matter how much they scream on TV shows about human rights and such.

    The only way I see the present set up staying for long is a radical transformation of the leadership. But I do not see it coming.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 15:30 #
  47. shirazi
    Member

    @shimatoree

    I always applaud your intellect and out of the box thinking. I have observed that on most issues we are on same page but where we are not we both have right to express our dissent. Talibanization is one such issue where we have immense difference in opinion. I don't see any room for Talibanization in our tomorrow but you seem to have adjusted to their life style. BTW you didn't express your opinions on Hakeem Ullah interview posted on the other thread.

    I apologize to disappoint you and use some harsh words but as you said when we were discussing prostitution there are some feelings better expressed in harsh tones than sugar coated. Taliban is one such issue for me. I should have refrained and will try to in future when we have disagreements.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 15:36 #
  48. shimatoree Dear, shirazi did make a good point or two about the army in his comment above. The rest was just his own bitterness at our loss of East Pak speaking. And it still rankles, after all this time.

    That said, yes, I do agree, Islam in some form or the other has to be the future of Pakistan, details still unknown. The west invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq sounded the death knell of secularism in this country as we'd known it since the creation of Pakistan. No getting past that. But again when and how are beyond our telling, especially since we've also been overcome by a tremendous natural disaster.

    And now about crazyhorse. So far I've only had time to read the first three postings. Super. Do you know what Hazrat Ali said about Fate? It exists, but it's a dark chapter and we human beings would do better to stay away from it. About "kindness and humanity", they do exist and will carrying on doing so till the end of the world comes. No one should ever doubt that. As for the third posting, it was a very thought-provoking analysis of the political situation, except for its concluding lines which once again seemed to attribute 9/11 to Muslim forces, which it is not and has never been. More later when I've read more.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 15:46 #
  49. Shimatoree

    I do not agree that Taliban are here to stay. This is the land of free thinkers and free souls. Taliban-ism is an alien idea to Pakhtuns. It might attract some minds, especially those who see the world in black and white but this idea cannot stay for long and so do the Taliban.

    You think that Islam is the uniting factor for the different fractions of Taliban; I believe that the uniting factor is Afghan nationalism rather than Islam.

    When Arab influence will be gone (and it will go away) then the real Pakhtun-wali will flourish again.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 16:27 #
  50. shirazi
    Member

    @shimatoree

    If I may put the faces on only two political blocks as described by you that are emerging in Pakistan pro-west and Islamists. Pro-west everyone one from PPP, PMLN, MQM, ANP and big chunk of media, civil and military bureaucracy. Pro-Islamists radical out-lawed militant organizations like Taliban, LT, JM and some religious political parties like JI and JUI and marginal institutional support from media, civil and military bureaucracy. I am not sure where 'd you put PTI pro-west or pro-Islamists?

    Your honest analysis says majority are with pro-Islamists. I am not certain how you reached to that conclusion. After 2002 elections, when MMA had their best performance since '47, religious parties vote bank is back to it's 1-2% norm.

    I agree masses are not satisfied with main stream political forces like in most functional democracies. But that doesn't mean they given reins to clergies. They keep on rejecting under achievers and give opportunity to other side. I hope we can follow same political evolution process as there are no short cuts to political stability as suggested by few revolutionaries on these blogs.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 16:27 #

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