PKPolitics Discuss » Current Issues

Pakistan - as described by a Talib

(86 posts)
  1. shimatoree
    Member

    Dildar-

    Please TRY to read what I am saying. Let me say it again.

    The Islamist political forces are here to stay in one form or another. They might be the Talibs or a form of their movement but they are here to stay. The nationalistic Puktoons-( so called) like ANP are finished. They have no future. They will form pockets either in the Nawaz League or some such place.

    The political forces and their dynamics as they are evolving say that the Taliban or some form of them will be a force to be reckoned with.

    To those who talk about elections etc- well I was not born last night so that so-called arguement means nothing. I do know how election work in Pakistan and for that matter in India. That is not the way for slavation except for crooks and thieves.

    You do not give enough credit to the Pukhtoons when you say when the Arabs leave- everything will be hunky dorey.

    Please read what I have said. Thanks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 16:36 #
  2. I agree here that ANP is history but I believe that Pakhtun nationalism is not ANP's property.

    What I'm saying is that taliban-ism has to go, it has nothing to do with an ordinary pakhtun. Yes Taliban will stay as being Pakhtuns and nothing more.

    BTW do you find any resemblance between taliban and Hasan As-sabah's fidaeen?

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 17:00 #
  3. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib-

    I wrote this before but the browser crashed . So here it is again for you and anyone else .
    On 9/11.
    I disagree with those that stipulate that it was an inside job carried out by a rogue operation of the CIA or the US Govt. That to me is a racist statement.
    It implies that a group young engineers from various Muslim countries could not carry out a n operation like that under the very noses of the great power.
    It also questions if the world trade center buildings in New York could not fail after being hit by two airplanes.
    Muhammad Atta and his group carried out a terrorist operation. They planned it and they executed it. In doing that they were very lucky but they did it in a different security environment than today.
    The structural failure of the world trade center buildings after being hit by airplanes carrying tremendous amount of fuel has been studied by a highly qualified group of engineers from the top universities. Their findings have been published in various journals dealing with structural engineering and you can find it on google.
    On my comments about the political future of Taliban-
    I have tried very hard to explain the political dynamics of the situation on the ground for those that are in the “ West is Best” camp. How successful I have been can be easily seen by comments made by Shirazi which I am sure you have read.

    Perhaps I am writing on a level which hard to comprehend and digest. Let me try again.
    Let us sue the example of the Iranian Revolution-
    Bani sadr and Sadegh Ghotbzadeh and others were in the drivers seat of the revolution. They had derived their legitimacy thanks to the great works of Ali Shariati and Jalal Ale Ahmad etc who had intellectually prepared the Iranian nation for the revolution.
    What happened is that the dynamics changed and evolved in a direction which no one had anticipated. The Shah’s army killed a lot of people on the streets. The death of those people was made to represent the new modern Karbala tragedy. Once that happened, the political ground shifted towards the mosque based Mullah and the Mullah for once played their political cards very well indeed. You know the rest.
    The situation in Pakistan is very fluid. The govt. has no credibility. The dynamics is changing day by day if not by the hour. Many things can happen. The CJ can deliver but it is unlikely as his record shows that he is anything but decisive. The thieves that are ruling and the other thieves who are waiting to rule are discredited. The News media is for sale to the highest bidder.-( in terms of Ads etc). The flood has come.
    I am saying what no one wants to hear. The Islamic movements have not risen in a vaccum. There is a reason for them to be here and those reasons are multiplying every moment of every hour of every day.
    Now how this will play out ?
    No one can predict but this much is certain. They are a force to be reckoned with and they will continue to be a force. The one person who refused to believe that is dead today.(BB)
    All those that complain about the violence of the TTP and others- please keep this in mind.
    “Tung amad ba jang amad” Expect more of the same- now from the destitute created by the flood. And of course you know who was there to help first. The Jihadis.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 17:05 #
  4. shimatoree
    Member

    Dildar-

    Hassan Bin Sabbah used Hashish to indoctrinate his assasins. The Talibs have not done that( as far as I know).

    Plus the peole he used were not Pukhtoon. I may be called a racist by some by I do believe that the Pukhtoons are a very good people, rational and reasonable, kind and caring. But when they get mad- watch out.
    But why I am telling you this- you are one too !

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 17:08 #
  5. shimatoree, no problem at all for the second part of your analysis. Well argued and corresponds more or less to my own reading of the situation to come.

    However, for the first part, we simply do not see eye to eye. No tragedy that. And also not because I think Muslim engineers are incapable of carrying out such acts if so inclined. But simply because that's not how it happened. You talk of scientific proof. Quite as many scientists have proved the opposite: that it was impossible the buildings collapsed the way they did because of the impact of a few planes. And please not to forget the role of Mossad in the whole affair.

    Mohammad Atta, on the eve of that momentous occasion was apparently seen with the Holy Quran in his hand in a nightclub drinkng alcohol. And then passports were conveniently found on ground zero straightaway implicating the culprits. Come, shimatoree. Upon reading that during the very first week after the events, I knew it was a put up job and the ten years since have simply brought the truth to the world at large.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 17:19 #
  6. shirazi
    Member

    @shimatoree

    I agree with first part of your analysis (forces behind 911) that MG disagrees with AND I disagree with second part of your analysis (Iranian style revolution in Pakistan is in the offing) that MG agrees with .... is that a coincident :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 17:40 #
  7. gv
    Member

    @shirazi

    Ditto!

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 17:45 #
  8. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib-

    On the tissue of the planes striking the World Trade center buildings-

    The Towers withstood the initial impact. The most important cause of the ultimate collapse was the 90,000 liters of fuel which caught fire. You must understand that Atta and his cohorts planned to board flights which were supposed to travel across the continent and thus were full of fuel. Atta knew that the crash will cause the fire. The fire caused the steel columns to soften up. The temperature of the fire was also not uniform and thus it affected the 18 meter floor joists in a differential manner.This resulted in buckling resulting in structural failure.
    As the floor joists gave way, the BOX columns bowed inwards. The floors above fell on the floor below which was only designed to support 1300 tons and could not support the 45000 ton that fell on it.

    Now you might say that all of this might be true. Let me just say this. If the airplane crash with the fire caused the collapse of the buildings- then the only question that remains is who was flying the planes.

    I am not a structural engineer by profession but quite a few of my friends and classmates. And I do have an interest in the subject-( besides a few other things)- for a long time. .

    If I am unable to make my argument to your satisfaction- then I give up.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 18:16 #
  9. shimatoree
    Member

    Mirza Sahib-

    It is not true that Muhammad Atta was seen with a Quran in a Bar.

    It was either Marwan Al Shehi and/ or Ziad Jarah who frequented bars.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 18:31 #
  10. scindian
    Member

    Yes Shimatori is right.

    History favours Afgani conquests over Indian Nations,but the world has changed,because all the envasions made by any nation to another cant be stayed or Justified in current world.

    Religeous motivation doesnt always work. at last they will understand the world.

    .

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 18:39 #
  11. shimatoree, ditto gv, ditto shirazi, we'll agree to differ on this matter, my one and only litmus test to see if anyone has understood what the world is all about. Too bad.

    Doesn't make you my ennemies in anyway. Just wondrous that people with a working intellect can be so blind in certain obvious matters. As shimatoree likes to say at times: End of story.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 19:13 #
  12. shirazi
    Member

    @Mirza Ghalib

    It suits shitamoree to wrap argument by 'end of story' but you can borrow words of immortal Mirza Ghalib

    یا رب وہ نہ سمجھیں ہیں نہ سمجیں گے مری بات
    دے اور دل ان کو جو نہ دے مجھ کو زبان اور

    :)

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 19:24 #
  13. scindian
    Member

    hey guys you are discusing on technicalties of WTC fall,
    May Allah rest souls of WTC victims.

    This is never ending topic, the world will discuss this event for centuries ........

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 19:43 #
  14. junaid
    Member

    quote//
    Get used to it and modify YOUR behavior towards them because if you do not- then you will be facing them- and be sure THEY will not Lose- you will.
    You can call them names and use your media savy techniques to malign them- but you will have to face them on the battle field and there You will lose. //quote

    i think sooner or later they will take over media as well the way they dealt with kabul tv station and did the betterment.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 21:19 #
  15. shimatoree
    Member

    scindia-

    I was just answering questions raised about the matter.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 21:34 #
  16. junaid
    Member

    sc indian
    hey guys you are discusing on technicalties of WTC fall,
    May Allah rest souls of WTC victims.

    This is never ending topic, the world will discuss this event for centuries ........ //quote

    may Allah rest souls of millions of people massacred for nothing but for sake of greater israel and for the oil.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 21:46 #
  17. shirazi, thanks for Ghalib verses. But I greatly doubt that either my tongue will gain in strength or others' hearts will change in favour of the truth. With that one must learn to live.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 21:50 #
  18. gv
    Member

    @junaid

    From another thread on the same topic;

    "@shimatoree
    i agree its stupid to abuse poor tribesmen with a parochial understanding of the world for being dogmatic about their faith or their interpretation of it...

    It is equally stupid to expect the majority of the population to regress back to a medieval bare bones interpretation of a faith with an incredibly rich and diverse 1400 year old tradition.

    The people to be criticised are the urban middle class arm chair 'islamic militant' supporters who would never survive for a minute in the enviroment/culture that the militants live in or promote.

    The educated classes should align together to reject this dogmatic interpretation instead of backing a medieval retrogressive approach to religion and culture in hope of positive social change.

    This can be achieved by highlighting and reminding ourselves of our own history and traditions be they religious or secular (god knows we have more than enough of these) so people regain their sense of identity and stop vacillating between wanting to be either medieval arabs or 21st century US centric mtv gen xers'..."

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 22:39 #
  19. http://i35.tinypic.com/14ne5ac.jpg

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 23:13 #
  20. shimatoree
    Member

    Natasha-

    I have found the article that you wanted.
    How do I get it to you.

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 23:36 #
  21. gv
    Member

    @shimatoree

    i take it you consider it beneath yourself to post a reply to my posts now????

    Posted 1 year ago on 16 Aug 2010 23:53 #
  22. shimatoree
    Member

    gv

    No. I am working on an article

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Aug 2010 0:12 #
  23. NNL
    member

    lol

    Its funny and i am going to regret my posting during Ramadan as a distraction from my original goal but the narrative put up by Shimatoree sounded more like a 'expert' anaylsis from a Pro-American Govt on Charlie Rose.

    The partakers of this thread are viewing things from different angles and views and not at the grand scale of things.

    We all know that regardless of how much Muslims we like to claim to be the Masonists, Rothschilds and others have been long studying this religion of ours more than us and they probably know more about it than we do.

    here is another angle from a Muslim who believes in the Words of his Lord the Extremely Powerful and Overwhelming.

    The rise of Taliban in Afghanistan was a simple means to an end in the time of Cold War. The Americans needed a win over Russians Free Masonists needed to crush the new generations of Muslims into subjugation by and of confusion.

    For the Corporations the Land of Afghans is a goldmine of minerals and things they will need and for the Freemasons the land is where they will create more disillusioned Muslims. For the Right Wing Christians this is where their Anti Christ's army will come from and for the misguided and uneducated Muslims the army of the black flags will come from here.

    I know MG upon reading the above will say 'here we go again with the name Dajjal". lol no akhi ur pet peeve is the reason for all this confusion.

    9/11 did nothing but divided the entire Muslim World and gave more fighting ground to the Pro West Muslims aka the Munafiqeen and the Fusaqs.

    As in the Entire Sub-Continent esp in Bangladesh and Pakistan JI is supposed to be the fore bearing force of Muslims, yet we all know that they are the worst examples of what a Muslim can be ( i m talking about their leaders not the general followers like HK here)

    Al Qaeda and Taliban are to be considered as the most Righteous Muslims ever and there are a lot of us would spend days and nights arguing on the holiness of these people. Yet what these people dont see is that the Same Bin Laden family was given safe passage after killing 3k Americans by their President who in turn killed more 2 million Muslims on the pretext of the attack. So who is worse ? To be they are same piece of a cloth.

    Taliban in pre 9/11 era didnt enforce Islam in their country they enforced a Matrudi version of Islam nothing new was to be expected out of them cos after all they were being lead, organised, and directed by a country whose founding father was a Bohri and Confused poet.

    The entire purpose of the Taliban and its facilitators is to confuse the general masses of Muslims into believing that the Picture painted by Taliban and the other socalled Ghairatmand Musalman is actually nothing but a farce ( which is true) and the ideal Muslim is the one who the West agrees with.

    Taliban did and are still doing their job perfectly.
    Pro Secularists are doing their job perfectly.

    Recently a very large clock was built near Haram Al Makki and everyone shout down with the Saud and unbelievably they posted Ahadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari and everyone agreed that the Saud family is nothing but corrupt. I will agree with them if they agree that the Hadith they are quoting is authentic and they accept Sahih Al-Bukhari to be an authentic book and thereby accepting the validity and authenticity of Hadiths. if they wont do that then its funny to accept their arguments.

    Whether it be a Pukhtun, Moharjir, Punjabi who were in Taliban of pre 9/11 era (rather a good portion of the fighting force were MQMers who had escaped the Rangers Operation hmmm was the operation really a cleanup or a recruitment job by the Army) they all believed that in this cause their salvation.

    Now after the events in the post 9/11 era where the credibility of a Muslim is dependent on how much he doesnt follow his own Nabi.

    At first JI was raised to be an epitome of religious people we all know how that turned out and then Taliban came up hell we all believed this is how the Sahabah lived. and guess what there is no way on Allah's Green Earth that the Sahaba Radhi Allah Unhu ever lived like that.

    my point to you my friends is that in the Post 9/11 era the icons of what a Muslim is or should be is so muddled up that average Muslim doesnt even what it means to be a Muslim. Therein comes the word of Fitna. Not Dajjal But Fitna.

    Fitna in arabic means confusion and in Shariah it means the confusion between whats right and whats wrong. Even our own Nabi Sallaho Alayhi Wa Ala Alayhi Wa Sallam used to pray to Allah Azza Wa Jal to be safe from the Fitna of Dajjal. And the Fitna of Dajjal is nothing but confusion and nothing else.

    Taliban, AQ, Democracy, Corporations, Sects of Muslims who believe things about religion which werent even mentioned by the One on whom the Revelations were sent are nothing but a fitna created by Dajjal.

    IF you cant understand in a matter what is right and what is wrong from the point of view of Allah Azza Wa Jal then you my friend are trapped in the fitna of Dajjal. And May Allah Save you from it.

    MG remember the Geopolitical map we talked about look at it from a fresh perspective. Look at the Hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari regarding Banu Tamim and Dajjal and then search for the people of Banu Tamim lets see where u find them and doing what.

    Whatever is happening in Pakistan and Afghanistan is nothing but a distraction for the people of both countries for 2 reason.

    1. Distortion of Islam
    2. Mining of the natural wealth of both countries.

    If the Muslims and i repeat Muslims of both countries not fusaqs or munafiqs can rise above the situation then they will see clearly as to why they are being hunted like animals and Mi-24 or the Hind is being replaced by the Drone its the same thing repeating itself. It has nothing to do with religion and yet everything to do with it.

    Shimatoree Sahib Charlie Rose ka session band karain tis kinda getting old. So whether Pukhtun think that Pakistan screwed them or not why are they asking for rights when they themselves killed a ton of their own people who were of opposing view so where the question what about the rights of those they killed in the name of Taliban....

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Aug 2010 0:26 #
  24. Thanks ,Shimatoree!

    I think I have your email address. You once posted a comment on my blog?

    u..something something?

    Ill mail you.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Aug 2010 0:37 #
  25. junaid
    Member

    Taliban in pre 9/11 era didnt enforce Islam in their country they enforced a Matrudi version of Islam nothing new was to be expected out of them cos after all they were being lead, organised, and directed by a country whose founding father was a Bohri and Confused poet.

    @ NNL

    lol
    What a bunch of lies. this and other utter crap; from where did u copy your brand of hatred.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Aug 2010 0:40 #
  26. shirazi
    Member

    @NNL

    You successfully pointed out evil doers in our society, Taliban, alqaeda, JI in short all anti west muslims AND all pro-west muslims.

    Where is the ray of hope? Where is the solution? Who do you think is right here?

    I fully endorse your ending Taliban do not represent Pushtoons or Muslims. It's a militant group that can not represent any ethnic or religious block.

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Aug 2010 1:05 #
  27. junaid
    Member

    @ gv
    This can be achieved by highlighting and reminding ourselves of our own history and traditions be they religious or secular'' /quote

    this reminds me that you are another secular(axis of evil) supporter like the late red scorpion

    Posted 1 year ago on 17 Aug 2010 1:30 #
  28. shimatoree
    Member

    gv

    you are correct that our salvation lies in accepting ourselves for who we are and get away from this notion of trying to be CLONES of the Wahabi Arabs.

    The question is how do you do that. Somehow you have to establish legitimacy with the masses. It is not that difficult to do but the problem lies with Westernization just like the other half of the problem lies in Arabaization- they are two sides of the same mindset.

    I am not in favour of nor do I support the so-called Islamic militants- BUT I do observe the dynamics of the political situation on the ground as it is-( and not as I might wish it to be)- just like the PPP , JI and PML-N and MQM are political factors in Pakistan- the islamic militants are just like them a political factor and you or anyone else can ignore them at your peril .
    To not accept that is to be an otsrich burying one's head in the sand.

    Obviously in my case I do have an affinity for my own- the Pushtoon just like an urdu speaking person might have an affinity for MQM.

    The decision is going to have to be made and there are forces which want the decision to go this way while others want it to go that way.

    But the Islamists ARE going to be a major political factor in the coming years and they cannot be ignored.

    I hope I have answered your questions. If not- then I guess I cannot.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 0:03 #
  29. Hussain Farooqui
    Member

    Mullah did not mention the prices which we have to pay for giving shelter to 3 million Afghans. Our whole country is still burning with those gifts of the Afghan refugees.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 6:18 #
  30. gv
    Member

    @shimatoree

    Thanks for your reply. I am in full agreement with you (and have always thought so) that the islamists need to be accounted for and that it extremely foolish to ignore their presence (present and future) on the political stage.

    The only point that i try to make (repeatedly) it does not help to glorify them and their actions which a lot of people (zaid hamid for e.g.) tend to do..

    The way forward i.m.o is to fast track national and political awareness amongst the populace so they:

    a) form a cohesive (real) national identiy based on (real) history of our region

    b) hold their political representatives accountable to deliver a fair and just system of governance.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 10:55 #
  31. shimatoree
    Member

    gv-

    The one great political advantage that the Islamist movement has is- the current so-called democratic system is BOGUS since it not democratic at all but based on lies, deception,pressure tactics, bribes, vote buying and fraud etc.

    They promote about days gone by which were so great in the great Islamic Empires.
    Of course that is false but everyone wants to believe and with very limited education of the masses- it is as effective as the PPP slogan of roti, kapra and makan.

    But far more important is the fact that THEY speak the language that the ignorant masses understand. Combine that with the corruption of the current rulers- it is an explosive mixture. The common man wants simple NOW solutions to his problems. He does not know nor does he wants to know the complexities of this modern state.
    So someone LIKE him comes and tells him we will FIX all this ****- he is likely to go along

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 12:19 #
  32. Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

    @gv: You will find the 'islamists' (which I believe is a 'derogatory', 'racist' term used for us. We don't give you derogatory nicknames, but you people love to do it with us, *sigh*) to be more than wanting to be 'held' 'accountable'.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    @shimatoree: How do you substantiate your claim(s) ?

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 12:25 #
  33. gv
    Member

    @shimatoree

    agreed!

    but i still think it is the responsibility of the civilian population to continue to build real awareness amongst the people to try and improve the situation on both fronts (i.e. government and militant)

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 12:27 #
  34. gv
    Member

    deleted

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 12:30 #
  35. gv
    Member

    deleted

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 12:30 #
  36. gv
    Member

    @hk

    im not calling you an islamist you nitwit - im calling the militants islamists... (believe it or not but i actually think of you and i (and all the people represented on this blog) as one and the same) (double sigh)

    p.s. i dont think islamist is a derogatory term - just as i dont think secularist is a derogatory term... (its all about perception my pointy headed friend)

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 12:30 #
  37. achtung
    Member

    haris bhai

    you frequently call some members 'secularists'. if this is not a 'derogatory', 'racist' term than 'islamists' is also not a 'derogatory', 'racist' term.

    islam teach us not impose you view on others. that is 'asool' of secularism.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 12:57 #
  38. NNL, to your long and interesting post, firstly: 9/11. I parted company with shimatoree, shirazi, gv (from the very beginning) and now you on that. Don't know in which world all of you live. But 9/11 was an inside Mossad/CIA job, basta. Nothing to do with a single Muslim.

    Secondly: I have never spoken of Dajjal or even fitna. So no, NNL, I won't be saying that. I believe in your sincerity, just as I believe in your wit. But I think you've been taken over by the wrong side in the battle among Muslims which is most definitely a reality. We don't reach a truce here, Islam will not progress. But, then, Allah will decide how to help us proceed.

    Thirdly: "MG remember the Geopolitical map we talked about look at it from a fresh perspective. Look at the Hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari regarding Banu Tamim and Dajjal and then search for the people of Banu Tamim lets see where u find them and doing what." This I shall certainly try and do and the next time we meet, I may have an answer for you. Thanks.

    Posted 1 year ago on 18 Aug 2010 15:07 #

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