Pakistan court orders ears and noses to be cut off

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Pakistan court orders ears and noses to be cut off

(50 posts)

uovervinnelig
Member

A Pakistani court has ordered that two men have their ears and noses cut off, as punishment for doing the same to a woman who refused to marry one of them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8425820.stm

Same news also on BBC Urdu website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2009/12/091222_chopping_punishment_sen.shtml

One can easily feel the differece of stories told on each website.

On English news there is no mention that if it is not possible to cut off noses and ears then criminals will have to go jail for ten years. Instead of this it is mentioned that their nose and ears will be cut and they will also go to jail for life.

Posted 2 years ago on 22 Dec 2009 17:24 #
zeshaan
Member

Peoples are speachless and afraid of that rulling.
kionkeh hamm sab naam kay musliman hain.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 0:33 #
expakistani
Member

i dont see any problem here... do you?

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 1:10 #
toamin
member

Right, no problem it is a valid judgement based on Islamic Law of Qisas

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 3:36 #
expakistani
Member

@JJ Khan

Yaar Rizwan bhai.... am i turning in to taliban ? jab aap ko apney sath agree hotey dekhta hon to dar sa lagta hey

Allah Kheer karey

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 4:12 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Those who think it is wrong should keep this info in mind, that the perpetrators did the same to another human being, when thinking about this ruling.

Put yourself in the position of the person who's nose or ear was cut off forcefully. Then ask yourself, what YOU would accept as satisfactory retribution ?

I agree. It is a valid rule. Islam says eye for an eye, nose for a nose, blood for blood.

It is perfectly ok.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 7:37 #
Shock
Members

I think that higher court will repeal this judgment. Whenever such rulings have been made by a lower court, and an appeal is filed by the defendant to the high court, such punishments have always been dismissed.

I personally, believe that they should be given an extreme punishment. So I do agree with everybody above.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 7:55 #
javedsheikh
Members

"Islam says eye for an eye, nose for a nose, blood for blood."

What about a women where she cuts off the genitals of her husband like Lorena Bobbitt?

What Lorena Bobbitt has to do with this issue where an issue is being judged according to Islamic Jurisprudence! Come up with relating examples

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 11:42 #
toamin
member

Of course she should be punished for this crime.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 11:48 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Javaid Sheikh sb. Justice doesn't distinguish between a man or a woman, when a crime is committed. A criminal is a criminal regardless!

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 11:52 #
Anonymous

Javed Sheikh kay sawal ka jawab nahee aaya, jj and Haris Khan !

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 12:06 #
toamin
member

sheikh saab key dil-o-demagh may aaj kal "wasal" ghoom raha hay to sawal bhi isi kisam kay aa rahay hain :)

pahlay ghori kay wasal kee baat kee phir dulhan kay wasal par sher kaha abb woh qasaas may bhi connection bana hee dala

question is related with islamic jurisprudence and I don't know the "hadd" in this case.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 12:14 #
Anonymous

"question is related with islamic jurisprudence and I don't know the "hadd" in this case"

This the appropriate response jj

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 12:26 #
sasherwani
Members

i think the punishment makes sense. im against cutting off hands for stealing but this particular punishment sounds about fair.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 13:59 #
ased
Member

guys if this reaction is right,then whole should cut off their noses and ears.
brothers you can't stabilize any shariat law in a nation which charakter is bad as the pakistanis today is.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 14:05 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@sasherwani: Your statement makes me ask, are you envolved in any thefts ? :D

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 14:08 #
shriq
Member

Cutting of hands is in Quran. Who are we to doubt (or be against) a direct order from God?

Please be careful in saying things like this!

For translation see:

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/38/default.htm

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 14:12 #
shriq
Member

JS sahib,

Are you making fun of an order from Allah in Quran by asking such question??

Be logical, be prudent, be rational but if you call yourself a muslim then at least be careful in such matters!!

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 14:15 #
Raza76
Member

Guys,

I think the punishents of Islam are indeed correct and absolutely justified. As per Qisas, eye for an eye and hand for a hand is perfect to establish the harmony in the world. Plus that is the relief for the victim and example for others. The only problem, I see is in our current syste, the system of evaluation of Shahadat is so corrupt that it really is not able to convience a true judge to the utomost satisfaction. Secoondly, forence and investigative approach of our police is so poor, that most evidences are lost or not properly presented ( what can be worse, in case of the MP it was said that the video not true. or pictures in case of Mira, where as forencsic science can provide a conclusive result about these).
I think, we should improve in these areas of evidence and shahdat, and if someone is proved guilty beyond doubt, he/she must be punished in accordance with Shaira (but also in foreseeable time, not like in 20years).

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 14:27 #
javedsheikh
Members

@ shriq,
'Are you making fun of an order from Allah in Quran by asking such question??'

Here is the problem with you guys where you loose grounds by behaving as custodians of Faith.
It is escapism to emotionalize an issue when you are out of arguments due to lack of information and logic.
Please read 'Bahishti Zewar' by Maulana Ashraf Ali Thamvi to correct your record.
At a Discussion Forum one should be well prepared to face all sort of inquiries, doubts, and problems.
The Punishment for the issue I mentioned, needs Ijtehad, Analytical Deduction and Consensus of opinions of the Islamic Jurists.
Had you been in Turkey, Egypt or Iran you would have never lost temper on such question.
If not wrong, I am sure you live in Pakistan.

(What Lorena Bobbitt has to do with this issue?)
Her reference was required to make the question valid and understandable for young Mmembers at the forum who might not be aware of the incident.)

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 15:29 #
toamin
member

expakistani,

darro per sirf Allah swt, insaano say darnay kee zarorat nahi

haq ko haq samaj kar kaho aur batil ko batil samaj kar, insaano kee raza ya narazgi ko khudaa naa bana lo

don't live in fear brother, have a little faith.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 15:44 #
toamin
member

Shriq's dissent is valid because JS has put a foreign case to question Islamic jurisprudence in a humorous way.

Had it been Iran/Egypt he would have faced tougher criticism due to making it look funny.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 15:53 #
semirza
Moderator

@javedsheikh

At a Discussion Forum one should be well prepared to face all sort of inquiries, doubts, and problems.
Why not, and according to your logic:
The Punishment for the issue I mentioned, needs Ijtehad, Analytical Deduction and Consensus of opinions of the Islamic Jurists.

Explain:
"Islam says eye for an eye, nose for a nose, blood for blood."
What about a women where she cuts off the genitals of her husband like Lorena Bobbitt?

Justify your example according to the topic that is about a Pakistani court decision as per Islamic Jurisprudence. What has Lorena Bobbit to do over here?

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 15:57 #
javedsheikh
Members

'Had it been Iran/Egypt he would have faced tougher criticism due to making it look funny.'

No, Here you are absolutely wrong.

They would have discussed this issue at the Auditoriums, Educational Institutions, Religious Curriculum and Opinion forums in an academic intellectual and civilized to find out a logical conclusion.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:02 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Javaid Sheikh sb. Go to any Muslim and he would be mad at you, if you go against anything that is directly present in the Quran. He may not show his anger. That is another thing.

When a Muslim talks against Quran, it gives crystal clear signals regarding a person. A Muslim does not accept disobedience to that which is in the Quran. For a Muslim, that which is in the Quran is permanent for all eternity.

As far as discussion is concerned, yes, we do have perfect logic, perfect 'daleel' in this matter. Today's world where theft, where corruption is wide-spread proves the validity, the relevance of that logic.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:02 #
semirza
Moderator

I am waiting!

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:03 #
toamin
member

I say you are absolutely wrong. Well, it is just your words against my words nothing more.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:04 #
javedsheikh
Members

Mirza Sahib,
Can't this incident happen in an Islamic State, if not by Lorena Bobbitt, could be some Nooran Bibi?

What could be the course of action according to Islamic Jurisprudence?

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:07 #
Shock
Members

I consider myself a hardcore secular, and against mixing religion with politics. One can witness the affects of doing that on this website. But this punishment does sound fair.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:11 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@Shock: This world went into chaos the day 'lawmking' was entrusted in the hands of common man, a person who had little or no knowledge of 'DEEN', little or not interest in 'DEEN'.

But that topic is not relevant to this thread.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:12 #
semirza
Moderator

What has lorena bobbit to do with a case of cassas that is clearly mentioned eye for an eye......
Why you came up with such an example? Justify.
was there any nooran bibi than put it up here as a reference/backing and not lorena bobbit!

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:13 #
javedsheikh
Members

Please read the context,
""Islam says eye for an eye, nose for a nose, blood for blood." and.........what about other human organs?

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:17 #
semirza
Moderator

Read about qassas and the court decision. Why you come up with examples that are not related or cannot be related even by you.
It was about facial features and not genitals that you brought in. Why?

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:21 #
javedsheikh
Members

Here the discussion is about Rules laid down by the Islaimic Jurisprudn about the philosophy of punishment.
We are discussion theoretical aspect of Islamic Law.
It is a general legal practice to seek judge mad Law through previous precedents and happenings.
An incident occured in North Virginia and was Internationally publicized to discuss for the mode of punishment and action.
Everyone has no time and resources to read about Qassas. Forums like Pkpoltics is the right platform to exchange such information.
Better you come up with a logical and acceptable answer to the question out of your vast knowledge at the subject.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:32 #
semirza
Moderator

Qassas is not a theory or general practice but Sharia and remains that way. Forums like pkpolitics is a platform to discuss and exchange information.
But my question remains unanswered!
It is advised that examples provided be relavant/according to the issue being discussed.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:38 #
Faarigh Jazbati
member

My Dear JS

Qisas is only applied if requested by the victim and it is the RIGHT of the victim otherwise Hadd or ta'zeer is applied depending upon the situation or the nature of the crime committed.

Islamic punishment are for practicle matters and not for theorizing or intellectual pleasure

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:42 #
toamin
member

Well said FJ

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:52 #
javedsheikh
Members

Mirza Sahib,
I am sorry where I failed to understand your concern about mentioning the name of Lorena Bobbitt.

If it is too graphic, obscene, unethical, as Moderator, you could have deleted that post at the first stroke without stretching the debate so far to an unpleasant direction.

I fully agree that examples should be relevant ....and also all of the members should be advised to be rational, polite, decent, informative and receptive.

I am sure you might be monitoring the standard of discussion.
(For you kind information, I asked the same question from Dr. Asrar Ahmad, during my visit to Pakistan, five years back, and his response and reaction was very pleasant and informative, without loosing the temper.)

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 16:55 #
SufiSoul
Member

JS is ready to accept only 2+2 situation if present regarding any case/crime.
Only 2+2 situation is never enough to decide different matters in life.
If some one cut off your right hand but he is not having his right hand already how should a judge go to decide any punishment for the crime???
Definitly he should look for sufficient punishment for his crime.
If that person have his right hand thats good and enough if dont have than he should expect the punishment of the same intensity....
It doesnot mean that ISLAMIC LAW/QURANIC LAW has any problem but (COMMON SENSE) has been given in advance to almost every individual to think and decide abt such crimes..... ....

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 17:31 #
zia m
Member

I thought the poster was pointing to bias in reporting in English version of the story.
I don't see much difference.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 17:34 #
Raza76
Member

@Faarigh Jazbati

Just a clarification bhai, Qisasa applies in such cases, it is only waived on the request of the victims relatives request. (your text is giving slightly diffrent impression). In other words, if the vicitims relatives do not forgive, Diyat / tazir will not go into effect and Qisas will be enforced.

@semirza
The principal of Qisas is general in nature and depends on the possibility of execution of such an order. Let me examplilfy, for example X who has only one hand, chopps two hands of a person. How would you enforce Qisas in this case. Such questions relate to Fiqah and have been answered by the scholars, also dealt in law of pakistan e.g. arsh. The punishments in such cases is generally prescribed keeping in view three things, a) medical view b) quality of evidence c) possibility of execution of the punishment.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 18:19 #
Anonymous

Perhaps, we need to be mature/tolerant enough to entertain irritating questions.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 18:36 #
shriq
Member

JS sahib,

As you said " I asked the same question from Dr. Asrar Ahmad, during my visit to Pakistan, five years back, and his response and reaction was very pleasant and informative, without loosing the temper"

Please share with us what answer you got from Dr. Asrar. And if you already have answer why you tested all the forum members?

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 19:25 #
expakistani
Member

i dont see any problem with JS's question..... why not just explain what kind of punishment woman will get in above mentioned case?

why our posters end up with conclusion that JS is making fun of God's word? he may be trying to learn.

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 19:28 #
shriq
Member

Sir,

What did Dr. Asrar reply to you?

I am asking this as I am not a scholar, I shall learn from what a scholar has replied to this question!!

Posted 2 years ago on 24 Dec 2009 19:29 #
toamin
member

I think that was just a bluff as he first referred to behishti-zewar and then referred to dr. asrar ahmad.

Had he possessed any knowledge on the subject he would have used it instead of creating so much fuss.

The way question was put forward on a public forum, it looked funny.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Dec 2009 2:53 #
javedsheikh
Members

@ shriq,
Dr. Israr Ahmad asked about the punishment she got from the Court in the US.
I showed him the verdict of the Jury which acquitted her of any crime:
" MANASSAS, Va., Jan. 21—1994- In a verdict that highlighted the plight and rights of abused women, a jury today found Lorena L. Bobbitt not guilty of all criminal charges, concluding that she was temporarily insane last June when she cut off her husband's p with a kitchen knife.
When the jury of seven women and five men announced its decision, acquitting Mrs. Bobbitt of malicious wounding -- an offense for which she could have been imprisoned for 20 years -- a gasp went up among her supporters in the courtroom."

Dr. Sahib kept quite for a moment and didn't like this verdict and said, "the Justice was not served."
I also thought the same way.
She should have served for 20 years in the Jail.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Dec 2009 3:47 #
SufiSoul
Member

The case is needed to study its detailed ground and observations on the basis court made this decision..
Before going into details discussing would be useless.
OR we may generalise that the Jury was (TUN).

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Dec 2009 3:52 #
shriq
Member

JS sahib,

Please dont take it wrongly, but did you consider this forum members having more religious knowledge than a scholar (whatever school of thought Dr. Asrar has)?

Let me convey my honest feelings about what notion I got from your original (and the last)post!!

1. I know we dont have any religious scholar on this forum.
2. All of us are people from Pakistan having sensitive heart, who want to talk about politics and other affairs in Pakistan but none so far I have seen who has the knowledge of religion par excellence!
3. This is not a forum where you should be doing IJTIHAD.
4. If a person brings forward such question, which he knows that even a scholar could not (or did not), then it means that he/she is trying to cultivate doubt in forum member's mind.
5. If you did not get answer from one scholar you should have tried another.
6. Have you tried shia alims on this?

And at this and other points from you:
1. I am not custodian of religion HE is (Nahnu nazzalnazzikr.....)!!!
2. In my humble opinion if qisas like punishment can not be given in this case (eye for an eye), some other punishment as thought appropriate at that time by the judge should be given (My opinion only, you have the right to differ. God knows the best.)
3. I am not living in Pakistan. But this point of yours suggested that you think every body living in Pakistan is of sort of having low value or status or wisdom. Forget about me, Sir you are also from Pakistan, what is your opinion about yourself as I find you a person of wisdom. And is it the reason that you have migrated from Pakistan that you feel ashamed of living in the homeland or be attached to it?

Nothing written above is for sarcasm!!

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Dec 2009 4:14 #
javedsheikh
Members

@ My dear shriq,
I respect you feelings and the nice way of expression.
But your post is asking for over 1000 questions, what is not possible for me to answer.
Bottom line:
* There are so many, very much learned scholars at the forum.
* Such Forums are the source of expressing and molding the public opinion gradually.
* Read and listen even if you don't agree.
* One should avoid to reach a rapid impression before looking at the details.
* I am sorry as could not catch the essence of your last question where you informed for not living in Pakistan and asking me about why I left Pakistan?
* Very simple and honest answer.
Better living conditions for me and my family through Rizq-e-Halal.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Dec 2009 11:21 #