Pakistan: The Lost Generation - Is this true?

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Pakistan: The Lost Generation - Is this true?

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azizi
Member

I watched this program on USA Public TV (PBS) about the Pakistani government schools. Can someone validate if it is a propaganda or is it real?

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/pakistan901/video_index.html

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/pakistan901/?utm_campaign=videoplayer&utm_medium=fullplayer&utm_source=relatedlink

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 13:44 #
toamin
member

abb amreekion nay kaha hay to sach hee kaha hoga naa :)

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 13:55 #
javedsheikh
Members

This is something very serious and needs to be taken up as Top Priority in Pakistan.
It is not wise to discard or ignore the reality just by mocking as American Propaganda.
Pakistan has already lost much by this attitude.

The Elementary System of Education needs radical improvements to create a better Nation.

It is believed that to judge the civilized status of a household, one should watch their kitchen and bathroom.

To judge how civilized a nation is, watch its Traffic and Elementary Schools.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:12 #
toamin
member

you see sheikh sb you have made a hit, but when salam strikes back then plz don't use "age card" that's all i request you :)

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:14 #
javedsheikh
Members

'plz don't use "age card" that's all i request you'

Sorry, I could not understand this sentence.
Where this reference came from?

Please strike at the thread not at my neck.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:19 #
toamin
member

of course it is going to be at the neck of your warped logic :)

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:20 #
javedsheikh
Members

You are most welcome.
A universal reality could never be broken by hitting at the air bag.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:24 #
toamin
member

Exactly!

Sheikh is in pangga mood :)

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:25 #
zia m
Member

Javedsheikh,
I completely agree with you.Our public school system is at the verge of complete collapse.We won't need any wars we will self destruct.

I wish there was a way we could lobby US congress to directly invest in our schools instead of handing over the funds to corrupt government officials.
I watched the complete Frontline report unfortunately it is not available outside of US for people to watch.
I was surprised the madrassas are some how getting the funding but public schools are in shambles.
Maybe we should send e-mails to congress members.
Any thoughts.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:27 #
NNL
member

Zia they cant fix their own schools you expect them to fix ours.

Its our responsibility to fix our own schools and no one else's

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:30 #
javedsheikh
Members

'you see sheikh sb you have made a hit, but when salam strikes back then plz don't use "age card" that's all i request you :)'

You are the first who invited for that through a wide ball carrying an irrelevant swing. !!!!!!"age card"!!!!!!!

I don't believe in Pangga Bazzi.

As an important scholar at the Forum, be a fair judge at least .

Have a nice day.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:34 #
toamin
member

come on sheikh sb why did you make accusation on me "...mocking as American Propaganda. Pakistan has already lost much by this attitude."

you started with an unnecessary no-ball

you could have made your point without it, right? why pangga bazi?

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:36 #
Shaheen-e-Iqbal
Member

Americans attempted to hit at us by hitting at the very core of Pakistani way of living to replace it with the so called 'American values' if they have any through their system of education so as their values be inseminated into our societies. This was during the times of Bhutto.

They tried again a short time ago, in Northern Pakistan but got some members killed in this process as people of Pakistan hate Americans. This is because of American pangey bazi directly and through its naturalized Americans (once Pakistanis)to promote their values by sacrificing our values all in disguise of education.

Won't be successful. Neither than, nor now or anytime in future. The element of religion that is deeprooted in every Pakistani is almost impossible to be uprooted or overwritten.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:45 #
javedsheikh
Members

' abb amreekion nay kaha hay to sach hee kaha hoga naa :)'

Please check, who wrote this sentence?

Let me ask, what this debate is going to promote the very spirit of the thread?

Are you satisfied with the existing conditions of the Education System in Pakistan?
Better to apply your expertise to suggest how to improve upon Elementary Education in Pakistan.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:47 #
toamin
member

@NNL

good point, public schools in american cities are so messed up that whites do not send their kids there, they either move out to suburbs or send to private schools-

why don't they fix their decaying education system in cities first especially in the 'south side' of cities

@sheikh

there was no need to indulge in pungga bazi -plz

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:49 #
zia m
Member

Americans don't need to do anything.We have abundance of ignoramuses.

http://www.threecupsoftea.com/greg-mortenson-bio-and-professional-photo/

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:52 #
NNL
member

its not only the southside Salam
ITs almost every where

their own government schools are dying to gang violence and excessive drug abuse.

The private schools share teh same thing.

Only the good education system is with the elitist schools where only a select few are given a chance to accomplish.

Ofcourse they will give u remarkable success stories but you cant run a system based on few remarkable stories if the solution is irrelevant to the needs of the society.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:54 #
Shaheen-e-Iqbal
Member

They still have on going infestation as racism like Latinos, chinks, negers whose schools are in shambles and they should better pay attention there.
We are poor! Than what. Our people will sit on a gunny bag, on ground if not a table and chair but never ever compromise on religious education at any cost.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:55 #
toamin
member

@NNL,

i agree based on first hand experience with their educational system :)

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 14:58 #
azizi
Member

Welcome to All American-Pakistani hate debate,

I asked if this is a real story as I myself have gone to similar schools. During my days the facilities were somewhat better (in fact proper) but our teachers were excellent.

I did study on the floor but with thick jute mats. Personal hygiene was checked regularly, even the kids were daily fed with milk. Apart from some stuff about Indo-Pak war I was not taught hatred against any religion or any country.

But in the movie all of the above seems to be gone down the tube? When did all this started (if this is all true)?

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:03 #
toamin
member

bhai when i tried to answer your question a member jumped at me by accusing me with mocking, discarding, ignoring bla bla bla

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:05 #
NNL
member

@ Shaheen bhai

The biggest issue is that they have no moral values or religious values.

They have mumbled it up and made their children confused.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:06 #
zia m
Member

Murd-e-Mujahid Gen Ziaulhaq has blessed us with his great achievements.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:09 #
toamin
member

lo jee abb zia bhi kood para idher :)

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:10 #
Shaheen-e-Iqbal
Member

How can they have moral or religious values. Since they lost 'family values' they lost every thing! All they are left with is materialism!

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:12 #
javedsheikh
Members

What the decline of American Educational System has to do with the improvement of the system in Pakistan?

It is an acknowledged fact that not enough efforts has been devoted to improve Education in Pakistan since 1947.

One out of some other factors, is the salary of the teachers.
Teaching, for being as one of the low paid professions in Pakistan has never been attractive for highly educated class.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:14 #
toamin
member

I agree Shaheen, it is like a body without soul-

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:17 #
zia m
Member

Don't worry Republicans the flag bearers of family values are gaining strength in US. Soon they will be back with their freaking family values and hate mongering.Just like the right wing nuts in Pakistan they will start beating the drums of more wars and hate.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:17 #
azizi
Member

The above discussion reminds me of a Pakistani politician who says about the parliamentary proceedings: when one party tried to show the government their dirty laundry of corruption, the opposition was reminded of their own wrong doing. The end result - No answers and no actions.

I did not ask the status of American Schools. But our religious zealots jumped into this garbage. Sometimes I wonder if I am going to be with all these thay-kay-daars of Islam in Jhannam?

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:18 #
Shaheen-e-Iqbal
Member

Salam and NNL
Americans should mind their own business within their own country and do not try to impose their so called 'American values' by changing or influencing our educational system. No one is accepting this or will ever accept this. They should consider leaving this part of the world by saving face as still there is some time left. They should avail it.
No one in the whole world likes them because of their filthy deeds.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:19 #
Shaheen-e-Iqbal
Member

It is not a mattar of religious zealots at all. It is a matter of a sensitive nature as my country Pakistan's future is at stake. American influence into our system of education where they want to introduce things according to their ways that simply do not coincide with ours.
I am a western educated person and know them well, inside out.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:26 #
javedsheikh
Members

I guess this is not from any American Source.

http://www.yespakistan.com/education/educationinPakistan.asp

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:29 #
Shaheen-e-Iqbal
Member

I am not interested in this propaganda any further. Stay happy with you links. Good day.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:32 #
Anonymous

Their are many reasons in ruining our education system...

1. Right-wing warmongering mindset. as we know that India has become much more advance and have more resources then Pakistan to built their military but despite of that these right wingers try to disapprove negotiation between Pakistan and India that could lead to peace in both India and Pakistan and finally Pakistan Govt. could able to pay attention towards health education infrastructure.

2. Corruption in Pakistan is one of the biggest barrier in this regard as funds that are dedicated in those areas are not spend.

3. Our army is another problem in this regard as buying weapons and doing arms race with India is considered as the first priority of Pakistan.

4. Poverty in Pakistan is also a very big factor because people dont even earn enough to fill their stomach how could they be able educate their kids.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:32 #
toamin
member

i think govt's corruption and lack of interest or political will is the main issue-

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:35 #
semirza
Moderator

Yahya has some fine points such as poverty and corruption. Due to poverty not some but many are unable to afford education for their kids. Corruption is what reflects in some clips shown by media lately where schools are being used as barns and cow sheds.
Our military spending is another reason as Pakistan is really burdened under such expenditures.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 15:43 #
hkbajwa
Member

First of all i think that the focus on the americans is a little off topic.

The american public school curriculum is just as full of propogandist nonsense as many other curricula in the world. The americans have an overinflated sense of importance regarding their founding fathers and they have glossed over many parts of their history to make it more palatable to their youth. That's why americans appear to totally clueless whenever they leave their own border.

But enough about the americans. This forum is about pakistan.

And the Pakistani curriculum is a massive injustice to our youth. I mean truly.

I have studied in regular pakistani schools most of my life and am horrified at some of the things that i have been "taught". The frontline report is correct about the hateful and skewed nature of some of the things we have been taught in school.

This has nothing to do with the americans, british or anybody else. The books i am speaking of are those that were developed by pakistanis during Zia's time. I have never been one to resort to violence but i ever get my hands on the crooked academics that wrote my Pakistan Studies book, i would slap the hell out of them.

THeir books are 1/10 fact and 9/10 inflammatory propoganda. the reason i am so angered by these books is that they have played a very major part in creating a prejudiced and militantly inclined youth in Pakistan. I mean how the heck can we expect our youth to be aware, thoughtful, tolerant and well-informed about the real situation in the world if they have been spoonfed hateful propoganda throughout their school lives?

SO one thing is for sure, our country certainly needs to review and change the public school curriculum. Not to make it more western but to make it more REAL.

Regarding the Madrassas of Pakistan. Well they are relaly nothing more than training ground for new Jihadis. I understand the socioeconomic factors that lead poor parents to send their children to these indoctrination centres, and that is a real failing of our society. Our poor deserve the right to an education without having to sacrifice their children to the militant and jihadi ideology of the madrassas.

Now please i request all of you to not give me examples of how the Indians Americans and other nations engage in this sort of brainwashing through their curriculum. Just because other nations do it is no reason for us to do it. Just because others are doing something wrong does not allow us to do the same. In fact if we are to prosper and really BE the "land of the pure" then we jolly well ought to start acting like it.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 16:03 #
Anonymous

I consider first point of my previous post as the biggest reason because their I said about peace between India and Pakistan which is a biggest need of time and those promoting right-winger warmongering mindset(like Hamid Gull, Taliban and their sympathizers) always try to sabotage these peace talks by their efforts and drag situation back to getting worse and this is a sole reason why Pakistan's first priority is always buying weapons and continue arms race between Pakistan and India....Because if we dont spend money on buying a single gunship helicopter then from that money we can educate more then 500 kids despite of corruption in Pakistan...

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 16:04 #
javedsheikh
Members

@ Yahya87,
You have beautifully summed up the gist of main cause.
What you have explained is the root cause of, not only education, but most of the social, economic and political problems, Pakistan is facing for the last 63 years.
The efforts to normalize the relations with India should be taken as positive gesture.
If Japan and America, even after a deadliest War, could live as normal allies, why not Pakistan and India?

(This issue of Indo-Pak Relations has already been discussed, previously at the Forum.)

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 16:28 #
expakistani
Member

Pakistani educational system are creating classes within socitey

Madrasas, Govt schools ( peelay schools ), low rate privat schools ( Allah Dutta angrizi medium schools ), high rate private schools ( Becconhouse type) and then one for
some elite class only schools ( Karachi Gram / aitchson type).
God knows what we are creating mixture of mess

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 16:40 #
SufiSoul
Member

American needs a non-educated stuff relating to the under develop countries like Pakistam,why they are ignoring their camped stuff even in washington D.C green belts.
American are running out of their country due to no job in US and brain drain is at peak this time.
This is the same happening with USA like experienced Russia after the war.
Most of the americans think this year as the break year for america,my colleague in KSA, which is an american having the same point of view.
Fact is that we need to get rid of American based regime here than we can find our ways for corruption free,educated nation and good health previliges in Pakistan.
BUT presenting Pakistan's picture on their media is never for the betterment of our education system.
But one thing must be appreciated that Pakistanis proved already that they can make better of this education system in all the walks of life.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 16:51 #
Anonymous

@expakistani

this problem is of a places where children have axis to education but their are other areas where children dont even have axis to education and those areas are constantly ignored because of other priorities of the Govt. so first we need to take our step their because those classes type education system can be solved if children from those areas which are neglected start competing with them then these low class school will also start giving better education for the sake of competition and this will eventually solve the class differences in education...

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 16:56 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

I can't believe I'm reading what most of the people wrote on this thread. Wow!

I hate this American right-left crap.

Do people think religious people or groups of people have any control or influence over;

(1) what goes on in HQ of Pakistan Govt. or Education Ministry, since Pakistan was created ?

(2) how Pakistan Govt. or Education Ministry spends money on Education in Pakistan ?

If the answer to above 2 is no, then I don't find anyone blaming religious groups for this, to be putting up credible reasons for Pakistan's education system's failure.

If religious people or religious groups of people;

(a) never had control of Pakistan (never ran Govt. of Pakistan)
(b) never managed Pakistan's money
(c) never ran its education ministry, created Pakistan's education policy

I don't understand how people can blame us for the miserable situation of Pakistan's Education System ?

This notion of 'religious extremism having caused problems in education' is utter! nonsense!

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 17:13 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

As for the 'terrorism' of religious groups, that everyone loves hailing here, let me inform you that, that terrorism could have been finished!!!, dealt with .. within a month's time of its starting, if the people running Govt. of Pakistan wanted it to be finished.

Those people had all the power, be it of policy making or judicial power or military power to quell this injustice. Why haven't they done that to-date ? It has been going on for over 3+ decades.

It is people running Govt. of Pakistan;

(1) who didn't allow elections, regular elections in student unions
(2) who didn't arrest criminals in student unions, universities for their crimes, over the decades

In-fact they are still allow criminals to remain loose in our society.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 17:27 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@jaypk: Please focus on the topic at hand, rather than focusing on me ?

I'v given logical points. Please counter them with logic, rather than bashing me.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 17:30 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

Why has everyone gone quiet ?

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 18:21 #
Faarigh Jazbati
member

Dear All AoA

It is really sad to watch this.

I also went to a so called khoti school upto class 5. Back in the days most of the schools were khoti/Taat schools. There were no private schools. The onlt private school people knew in those days was DPS. There was no Beacon House or SHS. The common perception was that only NaLaaiq kids go to private school, such was the standard of the government schools. There were no tuitioning and teachers would be offended if soneone approached them for tuitioning as this was considered as teacher is not teaching properly.

The teachers tooks pride what they were teaching and students paid attention on their studies. There was one fundamental things behind the education and that was character building. The academic achievements without extra curriculam activities were not encouraged.

I went abroad for higher studies and benefitted from that as well. I always tried to do the comparison of pakistani and western education system. I found that in europe the focus was always a rounded personality as oppose to mass production of nerds without any life experience. Somehow in the 90s and the last ten years, the whole focus of the pakistani ducation changed from character building to pure academic achievements. This led to the deterioration of the whole education system.

Now everyone wants to get the higher marks in the exams and for that private sector jumped into this sector and they ruined the whole education system and turned it into money making system. This also led to separation of education based upon one's social status and affordability.

There is no point fighting with each other and blaming america for her ulterior motives for education agenda. We need to contribute whatever we can to enhance the current system and when we discuss politics and policy of certain parties we must force the political parties to make the education their top priority.

FJ

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 18:30 #
hariskhan
member

Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,

@Faarigh Jazbati: Jaan de yaar!. Govt. mar gaee thi ? Ya Govt. chalane wale mar gae the ? Govt. chalane wale, aur un ke neeche rehne wale loag/awan dekh nahi rahe the ke kia ho raha hai ?

Kitne loag Govt. ko shor machate rahe ? Kisi ke kaan par joon kyoon nahi reengi ?

Govt. could have put a stop to this right there! and then!.

This is EXACTLY the job of Govt. To lead!, to consistently look for problems! in our borders and resolve those problems.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

It was only 2-3 days ago, when my father told me, Japanese look at where they have wastage in their nation, in their society. As soon as they find it, they move to curb it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Pakistan ke loag, Pakistan ki Govt. kahaa'n mar gaee thee ?

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 18:40 #
Faarigh Jazbati
member

@ HK

Bhai meray, Because the people in the government got involved in the private education sector. It was in their benefit that the government education system fails completely so they can build their education empires on the ruins of that.

The prime example is Nasreen Qasoori (The wife of ex FM Qasoori) and the owner of Beacon House.

The elite of Pakistan did a two prong attack on the poor suppressed masses of pakistan. They deprived them of whatever education they were getting and secondly they created a separate education system for their children to make sure that they are always in a position of ruling.

I in my personal capacity am working on building a top class educational institute in Pakistan (and definitely not in Lahore or Islamabad) and I request for all of you to pray that I succeed in that.

And dont worry, I am not asking for any funds for that :) as Allah SWT has given me more than enough to complete that project.

FJ

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 18:49 #
hkbajwa
Member

@ Yahya

There are two problems that need to be overcome

The first problem is WHERE the kids should study. This involves large scale mobilization of resources to create the necessary infrastructure to educate 90 million kids every year. Resources are scare and the whole process of distribution of resource is fundamentally flawed.

This is part of a wider problem faced by the entire country.

The second problem is we are facing is WHAT we are teaching them. The pertains to what skills and knowledge we are to teach our children. In my opinion that is not only perfectly possible to do immediately, but imperative.

This is related to the nature of learning in today's world. Today it is no longer necessary to store information in your mind. I mean beyond basic writing and arithmetic skills, all other information can be gleaned from any number of media available. Instead it is now more necessary to teach children how to USE their minds, rather than using them as storage space. THerefore our education system needs a review not only of the content of curricula, but the objective of schooling entirely.

It is my firm belief that subjects like Islamiat and Pakistan Studies need not be taught in school.

I say Islamait Firstly because the responsibility of teaching children about religion, morality and values lies with PARENTS. It is not proper for an institution to dictate and supervise the religious upbringing of a child. It is in expecting institutions to teach our children values that they wind up learning none.

I say Pakistan Studies because Pakistan as a nation simply does not have enough history nor has history been portrayed honestly by any of the governments in our region, or indeed the world. I mean i got an A+ in my Pak Studies o'level exam simply because i had been taught the same tired old history of Ashoka, Mohammad bin qasim, the mughals, the wars of independence, Jinnah, Iqbal, Ayub Khan, Bhutto, Zia over and over and over again since i was in 2nd grade. Big freakin deal. Don't need it.

Children need to understand mathematics, languages, computers, science, geography, and be given ample physical training to keep them healthy and fit.

They do not need strange people telling them what to believe or how to feel about their country... that is for their parents to do. What they need is to be given the tools to think constructively and creatively.

The reason the european countries (save the UK which is still a bit imperial) have prospered since WW2 is because they have adapted their education system to not only make people qualified to hold down jobs, but also to LEAD.

If Pakistani children had the same educational opportunities to learn skills rather than morality and history, then they would beat all the other children in the world in terms of qualifications and innovation.. After all we are the nation of jugaars ;) Seriously, they'll kick ****.

Anyhow the development of this curriculum should be done by leading experts in the field without the involvement of politicians or mullahs. The skills we are talking about require no input from either. We have plenty of brilliant minds in our country who can develop such a curriculum so there is no need to depend on others to do this for us.

Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 18:52 #