Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
Isn't it high time these high profile people were punished for this heinous crime of building empires, on the suffering, misery of millions of people of this nation ?
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Pakistan: The Lost Generation - Is this true?
(86 posts)-
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 18:56 #
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@ HKBAJWA
I agree that there should not be subject of islamiat and pak studies but my reason are different.
Teaching islam as islamiyaat is insult to islam. The teaching of islam should be from more practical point of view and its application point of view and not from remembering few ayahs and few personal hygiene issues.
Pak studies is another interesting cockup. What people get by studying/remembering 14 points of Jinnah or 1937 congress victory is beyond human ration.
One other thing and I feel very strongly about that. Even though I feel more easy conversing in English I firmly believe that english as medium of education MUST be banned in every school. If people wants to learn english they can learn as a seperate language.
FJ
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:03 # -
hkbajwa
Member@ Haris
The retribution for injustice comes in the form of justice, not in the form of revenge.
There is no need for anybody to take revenge or to punish anybody for past wrong. The objective we should have is to fix things for ourselves. You know... become self reliant :)
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:04 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
DAWN News: ADB terms Sindh education project a failure
Sunday, 31 Jan, 2010
--------------------------------------------------------This $97 million dollar project for imparting basic education, quality education was recently announced as 'failed'. Guess, why ?
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:04 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: I'm talking about justice, not revenge. Don't turn, don't twist my words to further yours.
Furthermore, people don't learn, unless they pay for their crimes. Do you understand that ? From your above statement(s), I deduce, you do not.
Don't twist the meaning of 'self reliance' to support your argument. It doesn't apply to the scope of the topic of this thread.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:06 # -
@hkbajwa
QAs you talk about resources then the reason why resources are scarce is because most of them are spend on military findings in buying new weapons to continue arms race with India because education has never been our first priority our national security is always our first priority....and when ever we try to do peace with India some Lashkar-e-Taiba or jhangvi or some other group messed up the situation so we couldnt get our heads straight in promoting education and as a result we couldnt able to allocate funds for social development and that is why we are left behind around the world...
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:08 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
The notion about lack of resources is false. It is a lie we have been told, and we accept it blindly (without even investigating) in order to avoid putting up the struggle that we should be.
It is very easy to lay blame, to avoid doing your own part, to avoid making the effort, to avoid the struggle. It is hard work to struggle for betterment.
Pakistan is one of the richest! nations in the world.
Pakistan is so rich, its students go abroad, spend millions! for education on foreign educational institutes, taking money of this nation out of this nation's economy and investing it into a foreign nation's economy i.e., the western nations.
Guess what ? UK earns over 8 billion pounds from foreign students EACH YEAR, most of which come from Asia.
I, as well as Salam, perhaps others too, have on countless threads, proven that Pakistan has more than enough resources, land, money it needs to get the job done. I don't think I need to repeat all that here, all over again.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:10 # -
zia m
Member@FJ
It is wonderful to know some people are working in a constructive way to improve the situatiom.I wish you best of luck in your project.hkbajwa
You have rightly pointed out the problems facing our educational system.
The type of education needs more emphasis.The ability to reason and question is not given importance in our curriculum.Science has to be given its importance if we are to compete with other nationsPosted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:13 # -
@Yahya87
The national security or the peace with india is nothing to do with it. It is the contempt of elite towards its people and greed of few generals/politicians which has lead to this sorry state of affairs.
Even if there is permanent peace with india you will find these greedy bas***d will find some other way to syphon off the wealth of this country.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:14 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
In one of our villages, my father donated 2+ canals of his land for building a school there. That was fertile, irrigated land.
I don't agree with the point of not teaching history and morality. In-fact the first! thing we need to teach our young is our glorious history, our moral values. Without them, our nation would die like west is die'ing off today.
This Muslim nation MUST! have a STRONG!! connection with its past, with its roots, with its past civilization, in order to move into the future, in the direction of prosperity.
I agree on the point about, where to send students to study, and that we need our children to be taught how to USE their BRAIN, rather than showing them how to use their brain as storage space for information.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:18 # -
@Faarigh Jazbati
National security and peace with India has all to do with current education because that is the main reason why we are buying weapons by spending billions of $$ while ignoring our deteriorating social condition because we still fear their would be a war between India and Pakistan in future so we have made our first priority to prepare for that by buying weapons of worth millions....imagine if we dont buy one gunship helicopter then do you know how many kids could be educated by that....
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:22 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: Are you Muslim ?
From your statements, I find reason to believe otherwise. In every topic that you take part in, you find reason to slash out Islam, DEEN. I find you'r inclined towards secular values.
I strongly! believe, we need to have Islamiyat as well as Pak Studies, in-fact detailed, productive studies of the past of Muslim civilization in our education system.
That will ensure that our young maintain a connection with our past, regardless of it being glorious or otherwise.
Nations who disconnect from their past, die!.
I believe, you'r trying to move us towards our civilization's death, in the name of correcting our errors, in the name of modernizing education. That is unacceptable for this nation's people.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:26 # -
My Dear Yahya
This is the very fallacy. If we didnt buy the gunship believe you me, the elite will still steal the money of this nation.
If you look into african countries ( I have enough experience of working in Africa), how many have latest weaponry , most none, still they have the similar education situation.
Look at Nigeria, the 8th in the list of oil producing country, Look at Niger the world's larget Uranium deposits,
These countries dont spend even 5% of what we spend on our national security and the result is the same.It is the elite and their corruption which is keeping the country backward and its people illiterate.
FJ
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:30 # -
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:30 #
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Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Faarigh Jazbati: Bravo! .. here! here!
That's! the truth.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:35 # -
@Faarigh Jazbati
I dont think the corruption would be that easy because if the news of giving Billions of $$ funds are announced then people start monitoring this money themselves and authorities as well and media wont let them get away that easily so if large sum of money is transferred then this wont stay secret for longer...
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:36 # -
My Dear Yahya Bhole Badsha
I give you an example from Nigeria. The previous government of president Olusegun Obasanjo awarded 5 billion USD (Yes Five Billion US Dollars)contracts to build power plants in the country. Basically government gave this money to companies. All the money disappeared. Last year the new government discovered that One of the company which was given 300Million USD did not even had the land to build the power plant and the working capital of that company was 1 (yes one) Dollar.
There are many example of projects in Pakistan especially in power generation sectors where Chinese government/companies offered to provide the help but it did not materialised as people on the pakistani side was asking the monetry assisstence and the chinese were offering the actual plant.Same with the rental power projects fiasco.
Yes you can say see because of media they were exposed but what is the end result, no power for the millions and no power for the industry.
Even the arms deals are done to get the commission. Remember the submarine deal.
FJ
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:49 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@yahya87: Hasn't it been going on for 60+ years, since Pakistan was created ? Hasn't it remained a secret to-date ?
How much do you think you get to know of that which goes on in hierarchy of Govt. of Pakistan ?
Media ? Govt. or its functionaries silence media, in one way or another.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:49 # -
Yahya
I dont want to carry on as this thread is turning into corruption thread as opposed to education situation thread.
so lets be back to the thread topic
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:52 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@yahya87: Do you know that Govt. posts/public posts are sold for millions in Pakistan ?
Do you ever hear any news about it in mass media, anywhere ? Journalists used to report it in the past, when this trend was new. But since no one in this nation listened to them, no one heeded their warnings, they stopped reporting it.
I will also stop with talk about corruption.
I will add one last thing. The previous generation lost! its past, its present, its future, because it ignored the warnings of MULLAH, who were! and still! are!, the best! intellectuals of the time.
I can almost laugh on this nation for ignoring its MULLAH in the past.
I believe ALLAH ALMIGHTY punished this past generation for ignoring Islam, for thinking of Islam, our DEEN as meaningless. It fully!! deserves! this punishment. Rather in my personal view, this punishment is not enough. It fully!! deserves!! much!! more punishment for thinking of Islam as meaingless.
Posted 2 years ago on 25 Feb 2010 19:57 # -
hkbajwa
Member@ haris
I gain nothing from twisting your words so i really don't try. And the reason i spoke of punishment as revenge, is because when focus is on PUNISHMENT rather than CORRECTION, it is known as REVENGE.
You belive that people never learn unless they are punished. That is certainly not true. People never learn until they become aware of the consequences of their actions. To make somebody aware of the consequences of their actions does NOT require punishment every time.
I am a person who believes in constructive criticism and rectification of wrongs. Punishment is merely a tool that sometimes has to be employed when ALL OTHER AVENUES have been explored. That is in fact one of the big reasons kids from madrassas become little quran reciting machines with very little or no capacity of independent creative thought. Their "teachers", like you, believe that the only way the children will learn is witht he threat of punishment hanging over their head. That may be how you train a stubborn animal. That is not how you teach a child.
Likewise punishing the present generation of those nations that once subdued us is NOT THE WAY to rectify the imbalance in the world today. To think so will only prolong and increase the state of conflict.. it will do nothing to change the situation.
You ask if i am a muslim. Well to that i can say that you are not in any way in a position to judge whether i am or not. Neither is it at all relevant to the topic at hand.
You say that nations who forget their past die. That may be true, but i am not proposing that our history be forgotten. The fact is that nations who wallow in a "glorious past" STAGNATE. The risk of Death is always worth it to prevent stagnation.
Btw I would like to know... If we are to teach our children about the glory days of "islam" isn't it then more important to teach them why those glory days came to an END? Isn't that much more relevant to the present generation so they do not committ the same mistakes again? Indeed it is, but that is never what is taught in history.
Just like other propogandist curricula the world over, whenever we were taught about the "golden age of islam" the entire coruse was about how great the muslim empire was... Yet what is the most important to learn is how even the glorious muslims were brought down.
But this is something that we are loath to explore, because it reveals the weaknesses muslims themselves created by their constant in-fighting and sectarian rifts, allowing other powers to take control of the world. The thing is that we are very fond of blaming the west for the waning of the muslim empire, but we conveniently forget that it was through the mistakes and inequities of the muslims themselves that such a situation arose.
The muslims of today are becoming more and more sure of their identity. They are increasingly finding themselves in greater positions of power and independence. We do not need to remenisce the glories of the past to prosper in the future. It is irrelevant.
We need to create a generation of properly trained indepedently thinking and creative young people. religious and moral training is the responsiblity of the parents. Nowhere in the Quran is this responsiblity passed on to an institution.
Likewise we do not need our children to be taught the fraudulent propogandist dogma that is called Pak Studies. Instead kids should themselves earch the internet, TV and all other media to find out what their nation is about, where it came from and where it is going. Only thus can we hope to have a generation of people who do not perpetuate the mistakes of previous governments and leaders of this country.
Give our children skills.. the rest they will pick up themselves.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 4:57 # -
toamin
membergood post hkbajwa
right, decline was because of our own weaknesses, others just took advantage of it which is natural, so it very important to identify the causes of decline so that we don't repeat the history
also agreed that it is incorrect to think with "retaliatory" mindset, but to think with "correction" mindset.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 5:02 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@Salam: There is an important difference between the two. That difference is 'where' retaliation and correction 'apply'.
Please! don't! forget that.
You can't say, retaliation doesn't apply to Pakistan in some cases.
We need to keep our perspective crystal clear.
Non-Muslim people often use the garb of human rights, of equality to propose the most preposterous of ideas.
We don't need to concede anything to them.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 9:36 # -
hkbajwa
Member@ Haris
Retaliation is the "justice" an angry barbarian seeks. A patient muslim seeks only justice and peace.
There is no justification for the use of force in religion
La Iqrah Fi Deen.... why must you ignore what is written in the quran??
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 12:07 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: Actually, it is you who is ignoring what is written in the Quran.
I don't want to go further into this. You need to do your homework. Either your knowledge is flawed or you are willingly keeping information, to further your point of view.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 12:09 # -
@ Hkbajwa,
I am glad to find a rational, wise and realistic scholar like you at the board of PKP.You have written sentence of the Month:
"PUNISHMENT rather than CORRECTION, it is known as REVENGE."
I have nothing to add to your very well worded article but to appreciate your scholarly approach.
Glorious future of a Nation is cultivated at the Elementary Schools.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 13:07 # -
Assalam-o-Alaikum-Warahmat-ULLAH ALL,
@hkbajwa: You'r quotation of this Ayah of Quran here, is out of context.
Don't lie to further your words.
When you quote things that don't apply to a situation, that tells me you'r lying to further your agenda. Then it means, you'r violating basic code of conduct, norms of laws. It signals to me that you would go to any extreme to get your point of view accepted. This tells me you'r a lawless person.
I don't respect people who don't adhere to some code of conduct, laws, norms of justice.
When you put up lies to support your argument, your credibility, your reputation gets tarnished, as a result.
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Mr. Javed Sheikh, do you always show your support to those who quote ayahs' of Quran which are out of context ?
I have come to know this about you. You support those who lie to further their words, all the time.
P.S. Two people who propagate something wrong, can't make a right.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 14:12 # -
'Mr. Javed Sheikh, do you always show your support to those who quote ayahs' of Quran which are out of context ?
I have come to know this about you. You support those who lie to further their words, all the time.'
Mr. Hariskhan,
1. You wrote something OFF TOPIC and not related to the thread under discussion.
2. No one has a right to object upon the choice of others.
3. I will support you also, where you write something constructive, productive, realistic and appealing.Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 14:54 # -
toamin
memberLa Iqrah Fi Deen
It doesn't mean that laws of land emanating from Qur'an-o-Sunnah can't be enforced. It only means that one can't be forced to change his belief/religion. As far as laws are concerned, all citizens have to obey the governing laws.
If the law says no usury then it means no business is allowed to indulged in illegal activity and anyone caught would be punished and this punishment does not mean that state is using force to change religion of person?
I thought I already explained this point with clear example- hkbajwa?
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 15:08 # -
If you are wise & well educated, Never trust in USA/India/or english speaking country.
If it's not helping you. This will be helpful for your generation to come!Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 15:15 # -
hkbajwa
Member@ Haris,
If you say it is out of context then please go ahead. Enlighten me. I don't see what is objectionable about the context in which i have understood it.
Listen Haris, i don't know what type of psychological trauma you have experienced in your life, but whatever it is that makes you see lies, deciet and conspiracy in every one who disagrees with you, i hope you some day get rid of it.
I do not have any agenda that isn't plain for everyone to see. My agenda is simple. I aim to promote peace and tolerance, engage people all over the world in constructive debate and an exchange of ideas and try to perfect my own arguments and beliefs by subjecting them to criticism and review by anyone who cares to listen to what i have to say. That is why i take special time to respond to your posts in particular, because i find it a challenge to explain my point of view to your narrow vision and closed mind.
You accuse me of going to extremes to prove my point, but i fail to see how you reach such a conclusion. Please tell me what i could possibly have said or argued that would make you say such a thing.
You accuse me of being lawless, but with all due respect, i'm not the one who claims to follow a "higher law" which makes me unaccountable to the laws of the land where i live. That, my friend, is what YOU believe. I consider it my moral duty to abide by the laws of whereever i live, no matter if i agree with them or not.
There is also no cause for you to accuse me of "withholding information". I have nothing to hide and what little i know and believe i share freely and willingly.
There is a danish proverb "Tyv tror hver mand stjaeler".. It basically means "Thief thinks every man steals". You accuse not just me but almost everybody on this forum of wilfully trying to decieve other people. I think you see all these conspiracies and lies simply because it is a tactic you yourself use.
I find it quite amusing that you are worrying about my reputation being tarnished by putting up "false arguments". thank you for your concern, but my reputation is doing just fine. If anything it is you who ought to be a bit mindful of the abuse you so freely spread.. You are not only bringing a bad name to yourself, but also to the religion you so ardently believe in.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 18:52 # -
hkbajwa
MemberLa Iqrah Fi Deen
It doesn't mean that laws of land emanating from Qur'an-o-Sunnah can't be enforced. It only means that one can't be forced to change his belief/religion. As far as laws are concerned, all citizens have to obey the governing laws.
If the law says no usury then it means no business is allowed to indulged in illegal activity and anyone caught would be punished and this punishment does not mean that state is using force to change religion of person?
I thought I already explained this point with clear example- hkbajwa?
@ Salam
Upholding the laws of the land is one thing. Whatever laws a nation has, it has the right to uphold them in whichever fashion they wish. Intellectually i may disagree with using the threat of punishment to keep people in line, but that is because i have great faith in the basic goodness of man. But like i said, that is a different belief.
I also quoted this ayah to Haris because he was encouraging vengeful actions against transgressors not to correct them but to get even. Upholding law is not an aggressive act. Revenge however IS an aggressive act. The former is in line witht he ayah. The latter however is NOT.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 19:00 # -
hkbajwa
Member@ Javedsheikh
thank you for your kind words, but i am certainly no scholar. I'm just a regular guy with time to think about odd stuff. But i am very glad you appreciate my opinions :)
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 19:02 # -
@hkbajwa
I find your comments thought provoking. I wish others may follow you as an example.Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 19:04 # -
hkbajwa
Member@ semirza
Thank you very much. I hope my opinions prove to be an asset to the level of debate on this site.
Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 19:09 # -
@hkbajwa
Sure you are an asset Mashallah, by the grace of Allah (ST). Like I said it remains my wish that some of our honorary members may follow you, your thoughts and your style of expression.Posted 2 years ago on 26 Feb 2010 19:12 #
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